Thought for the day on BBC Radio 4

[TheBoyPaj]

I know, picking holes in a religious spot is like shooting fish in a barrel, but this morning's opinion really wound me up.

The speaker (I didn't catch the name. Anyone know?) was discussing some recent research which suggested that the tendency for some women to be adulterers might be genetically determined. A sort of "seeking out a more viable mate" mechanism.

She seemed to reject the study on the basis that it conflicted with her view that God would never create a person with a predisposition towards trait, and that any subsequent decison to sin is purely our choice.

I feel that our daily decisions are influenced by a backdrop of cultural, learned and probably biological factors, but I can't be sure. I'd like to see the study to see what it suggests.

But this stupid woman didn't find fault in the methodology or the findings. She rejected it out of hand because it conflicted with her beliefs. And she was given 5 minutes of BBC radio's flagship programme to do it.

I had to get that off my chest. In fact, I think I'll complain to the editors.

[geni]

Originally posted by TheBoyPaj
I had to get that off my chest. In fact, I think I'll complain to the editors.

Personaly I view a thought for the day that p15535 you off as better than the normal ones (which mearly make you get out of bed to turn the thing off).

[Oleron]

I listen to the thought for the day almost every day - sometimes it is my only thought in the day!

90% of the time it is some pious arse trying to do a PR job for whichever god they happen to follow. However it does occasionally strike a chord.

My complaint is that they, to the best of my knowledge, have never offered the spot to an atheist. There are many great atheist speakers in the UK that I'm sure would jump at the opportunity.

Anyway, I entirely agree with Paj about this bint this morning. She obviously didn't want to be bothered with inconvenient facts when she had such a neat worldview.

[Dragon]

The BBC have been asked about this - their answer, IIRC, was sonething like "It's for religious people because it's always been for religious people". There was a bit of a debate a year or so ago and Richard Dawkins was allowed to give an atheist alternative "Thought for the Day". ( as well as, not instead of, the usual offering).

[geni]

Originally posted by Oleron
My complaint is that they, to the best of my knowledge, have never offered the spot to an atheist. There are many great atheist speakers in the UK that I'm sure would jump at the opportunity.


The main reason for thought for ther day is that it alows the BBC to claim they are including some relgious content while using the minium of program time.

[JimTheBrit]

Originally posted by TheBoyPaj
I didn't catch the name. Anyone know?Catherine Pepinster (http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/programmes/thought/index.shtml)

[TheBoyPaj]

Ah, thanks for that, Jim.

(You can listen to the audio via Jim's link too)

[Diamond]

On my radio (alarm clock) it goes like this:

"And now, Thought For The Day. Today it's the Reverend J.C. Flannel who's a member of the General Synod"

"As I was travelling to the studio today........*CLICK*"

Then I go to work.

Agnosticism is easy when you can find the "off" switch. :p

[Stitch]

Here is the transcript (http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/programmes/thought/documents/t20041126.shtml) for those that prefer to read it

[songstress]

Hello, peeps!

This snippet from Catherine Pepinster may be her own views, but it doesn't reflect real life. If one were to consider this in all truthfulness, men and women in abusive relationships would have to 'stick it out' because it's against what society believes in. That is rubbish. We all make mistakes in life and many of us do so when choosing marriage partners.

I don't know whether the prepensity to commit so-called 'adultery' is genetic or not, but speaking from personal experience, I have found that marriages aren't necessarily made in heaven or are the beautiful experiences that we are led to believe. Why should the putting on of a ring in a marriage ceremony immediately transform a bounder into something wonderful just because he's just become your husband? It doesn't happen. Indeed, I have found that 'the other man' is very often a woman's 'saviour' in a bad marriage.

While we respect other peoples' worldview, we don't all come at the subject of monogamic marriage with the same rose-coloured glasses.

Patsy.

[Quasi]

I think her point is that she believes in good and evil and that in between lies choice. Much like the criminal justice system in the US, which is also based on a free will/christian God philosophy, if we prove that in one or several instances free will is diminished it deystroys the christian worlview of sin and free will. This is also a major point of contention in evolution as it states that the fittest survive and insists that at some point in the future human beings as we are now will be extinct and the earth will go on without our lot. Evolution shows us that even cheaters can be rewarded so to speak. I suppose it is too much to try to yank the security blanket of religion from most regular people. It is IMHO people like her that are against embryonic stem cell research and abortion but have no problem with the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. It really boggles the mind sometimes.

[anor277]

Originally quoted by Oleron

My complaint is that they, to the best of my knowledge, have never offered the spot to an atheist. There are many great atheist speakers in the UK that I'm sure would jump at the opportunity.


I can recall at least one occasion when they gave Richard Dawkins 2 minutes air time to give a secular view (I think that this was a sop to listeners who didn't like the religious homilies).

On the other hand they've never given airtime to some raving fundamentalist type who might offer the following thought, "In England today we have many faiths and religions, I'd like to remind our listeners that if you don't believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, you will be damned in hell for all eternity". (I think this would generate a fine correspondence.)

[Aussie Thinker]

You know what !

I aint a Christian.. I don’t even believe in God .. but I sort of agree with her.

Genetic predisposition is a crap excuse for a thinking sentient creature.

I KNOW what is right and wrong and I CAN stop myself doing what is wrong regardless of how much I want to do it.

Paedophiles are a classic example.. there is no doubt they are “genetically predisposed� to do what they do.. It doesn’t mean they should be allowed to do it !

I certainly do NOT adhere to the same religious sinner type philosophy as her but I refuse to excuse people for doing wrong because their “genes� dictated it !

[songstress]

Hello Aussie Thinker,

I am not religious, either. I used to see the world in black-and-white, until I realised that there are shades of grey. I had a violent marriage, in which my husband belittled me and made me feel ugly and small. This went on for a number of years (violent marriages aren't easy to get out of) until I changed jobs and met someone who treated me like a goddess. This gave me the courage to leave my husband.

I used to pray that God would help me find a way out of my marriage, and meeting Neil was God's way of steering me to the right course. Ever since then, I have realised that although we do have choices in life, sometimes we make the wrong ones. However, we don't have to live with the consequences.

I am not a card-carrying religious person; in fact, I am a Spiritualist medium, scientist, sceptical thinker and fatalist. All these things have stood me in good stead when making major decisions.

Patsy.
:)

[Dragon]

Originally posted by songstress
....

I am not a card-carrying religious person; in fact, I am a Spiritualist medium, scientist, sceptical thinker and fatalist.
....
Patsy.
:)

You wouldn't be this Patsy then? http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1830000/images/_1832328_lumley150.jpg
:)



Welcome to the forum!
It can be quite a friendly place - but expect to have your claims challenged.

[songstress]

Hello Dragon,

Yes, that's me! Tee hee!

I really don't expect to make any such claims, to be honest. I can't claim that something exists outside of my own perceptions. I just know that it exists for me....sounds a bit odd? I can't prove anything, because psychic ability is in the main, unprovable because of it's nature. It's subjective and relevant only to those who are practising, who have received their own 'proof.' No further proof is necessary.

So I won't be claiming anything....sorry to disappoint....heh heh!

(I rather fancy a glass of whatever Patsy is holding in that bottle...yummy!)

Patsy.
:p

[Ashles]

You say you're a medium.

Does that mean you can talk to the dead?

If so, what do they tell you? And do you hold seances or anything similar?

Just out of curiousity.

[Soapy Sam]

Hello, Patsy.

Nice to see you on this side of the divide.

Lets see- Earplugs, asbestos underwear, rock hammer, hard hat, seven league boots. You are appropriately kitted for fieldwork.
Have fun.

:)

[songstress]

Hello Ashles,

Nice to meet you!

Well, no I don't talk to the dead - if someone is dead, you can't speak to them - heh! :D Mediumship is something that one is born with, rather like an instinct, if I can call it that. I can remember being a small child and 'seeing' people who I later found out 'weren't there' in reality. I used to 'know' things in advance. It wouldn't happen all the time, but from time to time. I had a terrible time from my mum and dad, who were scared of me. It didn't go away and for years, I was moving around aimlessly, looking for something that made sense of my ability. I was encouraged to visit a Spiritualist Church. I was frightened about it, Ashles, I really was. I had the idea that ghosts, demons and whatnot would be conjured up, and all sorts being unleashed. However, when I visited the place, it was quite pleasant, the people friendly and genuine and as I made friends (some mediums, like myself, are very sceptical of it all) it all made sense. At last I found people who could tell me what was going on and how to direct/control it. There wasn't any classes on 'cold readings' or 'hot readings' just people like me who had a 'gift' and had used it. The reason why I was and am sceptical of it, is because I don't think that a gift like this is purely for 'channelling' purposes. I am sure it has a greater use, but I haven't yet found it!

No, I don't take part in seances. The modern Spiritualist movement has banned them, although people can conduct their own private ones if they wish. Those old seances were open to fraudulent behaviour using actors, coat hanger witches and cardboard cut-outs. The modern movement won't touch them with a bargepole. All Spiritualist mediums in the UK undergo stringent training and are never let loose on the 'paying public' until they can prove that they really are using their abilities and not 'cold reading.' If anyone is suspected of it, he/she is dismissed and not allowed to practise on the platform but is advised to go back into 'circle.' The very reputation of Spiritualism depends on the quality of its mediums, and they do try to provide a good service.

That's just a potted snippet. I'm not trying to make you believe in anything, Ashles. Just answering your question. Hope I have enlightened you a little.

Patsy.

:)

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by songstress
No, I don't take part in seances. The modern Spiritualist movement has banned them... The very reputation of Spiritualism depends on the quality of its mediums, and they do try to provide a good service.
Well, if we're going to derail the thread anyway...

I'm puzzled. What services do mediums provide besides seances?

On the original topic: couldn't they call it: "Absence Of Critical Thought For The Day"?

[Ashles]

Thanks.
I'm not trying to make you believe in anything, Ashles.
Don't worry. We've had people far more strident than you on these forums (fora?) and everyone usually tends to walk away with their personal beliefs and viewpoints unchanged. But it is all interesting to hear about.
Those old seances were open to fraudulent behaviour using actors, coat hanger witches and cardboard cut-outs.
Tell us about it!
We had an interesting (if slightly silly) thread about ectoplasm and seance photos on
This Thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47617&highlight=seance+photo)

Well, no I don't talk to the dead - if someone is dead, you can't speak to them - heh!
Well absolutely. Although to watch all the programmes on TV about psychics it certainly wouldn't appear that way to the casual viewer, what with the constant presence of characters like Derek Acorah and, of course, Sylvia Browne.

[songstress]

Hello Ashles,

Yes, mediumship has had a rough ride over the years, and it's been mainly self-inflicted. It can't blame anyone else. The seances were getting silly and out-of-hand and many people were exposed as frauds. They may have been genuine mediums but their actions held them up to ridicule. The coat-hanger witches, the ectoplasm made of cotton wool and so on - the list of questionable behaviour is endless. No wonder people have a dim view of Spiritualist churches (Dr Adequate, for instance) and they are entitled to think that.

However, these days all that has been dispensed with in favour of 'mental' mediumship, which is really a form of meditation. It is quite complex to explain, but much more effective than resorting to models and curtains. Goodness me! The new way of working is far more credible and less stupid than before. Confessing that one is a medium these days should not be shocking. I would be keeping it well under wraps if Spiritualism was still in the 'dark ages.'

Derek Acorah is possibly the best example of a 'mental' medium that I could use.

Patsy.
:p

[songstress]

Dr Adequate,

Pleased to make your acquaintance.

You are right - this thread has gone right 'off topic.'

Seances were dispensed with in Spiritualist churches many years ago, in favour of 'mental'mediumship. It's far more successful and less daft than the fraudulent seances of old. If a movement wants to be taken seriously, it has to have a re-vamp, and the seances had to go.

Thank goodness.

I might begin a new thread on this topic and see what people think. That will bring this one back to its original topic 'radio 4.'

Patsy.
;)

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by songstress
However, these days all that has been dispensed with in favour of 'mental' mediumship, which is really a form of meditation. It is quite complex to explain, but much more effective than resorting to models and curtains.
I'm good at understanding complex explanations. What is mental mediumship?

I still don't understand what you've posted about seances. I mean, mediums communicate with spirits right? And when they do that, it's called a seance, isn't it? How can you be a medium without holding seances? I don't follow you.

[richardm]

Originally posted by songstress

Derek Acorah is possibly the best example of a 'mental' medium that I could use.


Couldn't have put it better myself. The man is clearly a nut. Although he's also a wealthy nut, so perhaps he's on to something.

For those unfamiliar, Acorah is the world's foremost camp scouse psychic. Actually he's probably the world's only camp scouse psychic.

Top moment was in a recent episode of "Most Haunted" when he pretended to be possessed by a witchfinder, and started going on about having a feel of Yvette's (the presenter) breasts, to check for surplus nipples I presume. He chased her around for a bit and then had to be led off for a lie down and (presumably) a cold shower. Shortly afterwards it was announced that for the next series they were going to be using some other mediums for a change :D

I don't wish to sound uncharitable, but the man has "Fraud" written all over him, although mind you speaking of uncharitable his pay-as-you-go psychic phoneline wasn't exactly a great work of ethics.

[geni]

Originally posted by songstress

However, these days all that has been dispensed with in favour of 'mental' mediumship, which is really a form of meditation. It is quite complex to explain, but much more effective than resorting to models and curtains. Goodness me! The new way of working is far more credible and less stupid than before. Confessing that one is a medium these days should not be shocking. I would be keeping it well under wraps if Spiritualism was still in the 'dark ages.'


Complex to explain? If you really understand something you can explain it.

[geni]

Originally posted by songstress
Seances were dispensed with in Spiritualist churches many years ago, in favour of 'mental'mediumship. It's far more successful and less daft than the fraudulent seances of old. If a movement wants to be taken seriously, it has to have a re-vamp, and the seances had to go.



Of course they had to go. They were to easy to expose. A qick flick of the lights or a camera flashbulb and the whole thing was exposed. Much harder to do with cold/hot reading.

[Azrael 5]

Derek Acorah is the worst example of ANYTHING! Just to derail further,with regards phoneline Psychics.Over at Badpsychics.co.uk forum it has banners for such phonelines? Isnt this a bit odd?

[Stitch]

Originally posted by songstress

All Spiritualist mediums in the UK undergo stringent training

What training? How many fail after they have been trained?

Originally posted by songstress

and are never let loose on the 'paying public' until they can prove that they really are using their abilities and not 'cold reading.'

What test protocols are used to show they are not cheating? Would any of those that have been shown to be genuine be prepared to take the JREF challenge? If not why not?

Originally posted by songstress

If anyone is suspected of it, he/she is dismissed and not allowed to practise on the platform but is advised to go back into 'circle.' The very reputation of Spiritualism depends on the quality of its mediums, and they do try to provide a good service.


How many have been dismissed? Are they allowed to re-apply, are the records publically available?

Welcome BTW, sorry, for all the questions :D

[Stitch]

Originally posted by songstress

Derek Acorah is possibly the best example of a 'mental' medium that I could use.

Patsy.
:p

Oh dear, is he the best you have to offer? He is truely awful!

His researchers let him down quite a lot as well. Somebody on here posted a super example from "most haunted" where the person he contacted had a unisex name and he got it the wrong way round. I'll have to have a dig this person has a web site with countless examples of major Acorah fluff ups.

[Dr Adequate]

Also, this shabby fraud (http://www.ispr.net/team/derek_bio.html) claims "amazingly accurate work as a professional clairvoyant in cases for both the private sector and police agencies (criminal cases)."

Unfortunately, no policeman is quoted to confirm this, and no details are given.

As always.

[Azrael 5]

They all claim success with police cases,especially murders.Never see a medium called to give evidence in court though.:p

Have you seen this test (http://www.ispr.net/surveys/psitest.html) ?

[geni]

Originally posted by Azrael 5
Derek Acorah is the worst example of ANYTHING! Just to derail further,with regards phoneline Psychics.Over at Badpsychics.co.uk forum it has banners for such phonelines? Isnt this a bit odd?

Not really it's just a side effect of google adds. I've got a screen shot of an advert for tam dvds on a homeopathy forum.

[jambo372]

Mental mediumship is just normal mediumship ... the spirit tells the medium what to pass on to the sitters.

Physical mediumship is the other type of mediumship ... used at traditional victorian seances involving spirit rappings, ectoplasmic emissions, transfiguration, levitation and telekinesis. It much less common nowadays than it used to be.

[Ashles]

Physical mediumship is the other type of mediumship ... used at traditional victorian seances involving spirit rappings, ectoplasmic emissions, transfiguration, levitation and telekinesis. It much less common nowadays than it used to be.
Hmm, I wonder why...

[Azrael 5]

Just when you thought critical thinking was taking over up pops Jambo372.;)

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by Ashles
Hmm, I wonder why...
Sarcasm, but still quite a good question.

Well, the first people to produce spirit rappings were the Fox sisters, one of whom later confessed.

The first people with the "spirit cabinet" dodge were the Davenport brothers, caught cheating.

The most famous exponent (I don't know if he was the first) of "spirit writing" was Slade, who was caught cheating, tried, and convicted.

(The interesting thing is that after each debunking, spiritualism still shuffles on like the undead.)

However, cold readers can't be caught as such. They can just be wrong an awful lot. And the audience lets them.

[jambo372]

Personally as a Spiritualist, I see nothing at all special about Derek Acorah, John Edward or Sylvia Browne ...
I've saw far more impressive demonstrations by other less famous mediums.

[JPK]

Good morning Jambo372,

Originally posted by jambo372
Personally as a Spiritualist, I see nothing at all special about Derek Acorah, John Edward or Sylvia Browne ...
I've saw far more impressive demonstrations by other less famous mediums.

However since you only count when they say something right and ignore the missed you would be easily impressed.
Oh yeah, and you respect even the frauds because you are obligated or something. Sorry to paraphrase but you did state something to that effect? I'm not trying to pick on you, I would just love to hear why you feel this way.

JPK

[jambo372]

But they're hardly ever wrong.
That medium I saw on Sunday night ... she was a marvel ... she never got one thing wrong throughout the whole meeting ... and considering how much she said that's definitely something.

[Ashles]

A 100% successful medium?

Can you tell me why she hates children so much?

I mean, with that ability the $1million dollars is surely hers.

With a million she could do so much good for abused and neglected children. Or starving children in Africa.

Instead she chooses to sit in your local church hall.

Why is she such a mean person?

[jambo372]

She doesn't hate children & isn't a mean person.

She's a spiritualist medium, she gives messages to prove that death is not the end ... not to convince James Randi ... she probably hasn't even heard of him.

[Ashles]

Could she not do a lot of good with one million dollars?

[jambo372]

Possibly.
It's my considered opinion that she is a very powerful medium.

[Ashles]

Then whyever would she choose to not to claim this prize, to not open up a new field of study to the world, to not increase our understanding of the universe, to not help many charities with the money.
In fact with all the paranormal challenges available she could claim over 2 million dollars, and that doesn't include the money she could make from her story.

She could do so much good to the world, instead of telling a bunch of people that death isn't the end. Especially when that bunch of people is comprised entirely of people who already don't believe death is the end.

Why would this be?

[jambo372]

Most self respecting mediums wouldn't dream of a publicity stunt like that.

[TLN]

Originally posted by jambo372
Most self respecting mediums wouldn't dream of a publicity stunt like that.

Feeding starving children (for example) is not a publicity stunt.

Jambo, they won't get tested because they have no powers. Sorry, but these excuses of yours are pitiful.

[Ashles]

They wouldn't be happy to receive a certain amount of publicity in order to help many people?

How selfish.

Next excuse please Jambo.

You haven't tried the "She'll lose her powers if she does it" one yet.

[JPK]

Originally posted by jambo372
But they're hardly ever wrong.
That medium I saw on Sunday night ... she was a marvel ... she never got one thing wrong throughout the whole meeting ... and considering how much she said that's definitely something.

And at one time you said you were going to make a transcript of these readings. Then you went to one and didn't write it down because it wasn't a good reading. Do you see how this is very selective? This makes it difficult to put much faith into your interpritation of what a marvel this last medium was.

JPK

[jambo372]

It wasn't because it was a bad reading - I never got a reading the night you're talking about.

[JPK]

Originally posted by jambo372
It wasn't because it was a bad reading - I never got a reading the night you're talking about.

Sorry. I must have missunderstood. Are you still planning on making some transcripts, or is it just not something you care to do?

JPK

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by jambo372
But they're hardly ever wrong.
That medium I saw on Sunday night ... she was a marvel ... she never got one thing wrong throughout the whole meeting ... and considering how much she said that's definitely something.

How about giving some examples? What specific messages impressed you? You should be able to remember, if she was such a marvel.

[jambo372]

I was impressed by just about all of the messages she gave.

Here is one example :

Glynnis : The young lady at the back with the blonde hair who just turned round, can I come to you ?

Sitter : Yes

Glynnis : I've got the gentleman here who knew your Aunt Helen and your Father. I'm seeing black tar in the lungs - he died of lung cancer. He was senile before passing. He had "senior moments", like me.

Sitter : Aye

Glynnis : He tells me your Aunt Helen is pregnant, I'm seeing twins. He says it's not going to be twins but there were twins in the family.There's triplets in the family as well.

Sitter : (Chalk white with mouth dropped open) Aye.

Glynnis : I'm getting the man who died on the railway

Sitter : Yes

Glynnis : I'd also like to bring you the names of Peter & Eileen from spirit.

Sitter : yes

Glynnis : I'm also getting the names of Elizabeth & Catherine on material, I know they're common names but it's what I'm getting.

Sitter : Yes

Glynnis : Take their love from spirit darling, thank you for working with me. God Bless child.

Sitter : Thank you.

#2

Rebecca : The man in the corner, I'm coming to you. Sorry for pointing.

Sitter : Yes

Rebecca : I'd like to bring forward the gentleman who passed in the motorbike accident. He says he was a friend of yours.

Sitter : Yes.

Rebecca : They're telling me about the person who keeps getting headaches. She's not to panic but she's needing to go to the medicine man.

Sitter : Aye

Rebecca : I'd like to bring forward an Irish connection, also connections in Australia.

Sitter : Yes

Rebecca : Your father has just sat down in that chair next to you. He tells me his name's Robert. He sends you his thoughts from spirit.

Sitter : Yes.

Rebecca : I'm getting the name of James on a spirit vibration. He worked in a coal mine.

Sitter : Aye. I can take that.

Rebecca : I'd like to give you the names Henrietta and Eu ... Euphenia.

Sitter : Yes

Rebecca : I have a Grandmother link looking after a spirit baby who was conceived but not carried. A miscarried baby.

Sitter : Yes

Rebecca : Take their love and God Bless.

[JPK]

Jambo372,

Thanks for that info. Was this from a recording? Did you take notes or was it from memory?

JPK

[Azrael 5]

Sounded to me like the sitter was bored,why the monosyllabic answers? Who says"Aye" I mean! Also is that word for word what happened?Is it recorded? Otherwise its anecdotal,and worthless.
Where is this amazing medium based anyway,maybe we could have a JREF forum outing(literally);) !

[Ashles]

Well she certainly sounds good enough to win the million dollars.

Is she prepared to help the suffering by winning the JREF prize?

Honestly Jambo if this person exists, and can really do this, it is important to the world, to scientific knowledge, to everyone for her to win this challenge.

How many people across the globe would be exalted to have some form of actual evidence that death isn't the end?

This woman could change all that.

She could quite literally stop wars.



So just remind me again what her reasons are for not applying?

[Azrael 5]

She has nothing to prove;her powers arent for financial gain? She's a fraud?
Runaround.......NOW!:)

[JPK]

I seem to recall Jambo372 saying that the sitters are only supossed to answer with yes or no. However the setting these readings are done in is important.
It sounds like these people were being called out infront of everyone or at least others to be read for. From reading earlier Jambo372, posts I was under the impresion that these were one on one readings. In front of a group like this , they may feel required to just say "yes" to everything. Similar to the faith healers we see on TV here in the USA. Preacher blathering on about Jezzuz and the soon to be healed person sobbing and knodding thier head. Jambo372 said something about being obligated to believe in mediums. Who knows.
But I am certainly glad you posted that Jambo372. It gives a clearer picture of what might be going on at this church.
IF these are done in the open like this and there is a fair amount of return customers, then this also explains why so much info is already known to all of the mediums.

JPK

[songstress]

Hello Geni,

Yes, the old seances had to go precisely for the reason of fraud. Before then, anyone could set up cabinets, curtains and so on, and claim that they were 'in touch' with spirits. It caused uproar. Not all mediums at that time were fraudulent (Florence Cook, for example) but many others were. These seances came at a time when spirit photography was in its infancy, and a lot of seances were linked to this.

Mental mediumship is always practised in Spiritualist churches, seances are never practised. It is totally against ethical practise. A medium isn't necessary 'in touch with spirits' nor does she have to have a seance in which to practise. Mediumship is not only about giving messages, being a medium means that she lives a different lifestyle. It is more a 'spiritual advisor/counsellor' than someone who merely turns up at a church on a Sunday and takes a service. Many mediums work for nothing, and while it's rewarding, it is also a thankless job.

As for explaining it being complex, it is when trying to do so on a webforum. It is no good trying to do that. It is best explained when a person is in front of you, since a sitting with a medium shoudl be a total spiritual experience, explaining the dynamics without the physical contribution of the sitter is nigh impossible. It is basically about exchange of energies, and one cannot graps that feeling from mere words - one would have to experience it physically.

Derek Acorah is an excellent medium, but my feeling is (after observing him on telly) is that he has been told to do some things e.g. being overtaken in trance, etc. A medium never does that unless she can be sure that she'll be safe. I cringe sometimes when I see the situations that Derek gets into, all in the name of good telly. He looks worn out.

Another fact about mediums - when a medium has been working non-stop for many years, she may develop diabetes. This is due to the constant changing of vibrations. This is another reason why it is impossible to explain on a webforum, how mental mediumship works. The curious observer would have to be with a medium for a period of time to understand it.

Patsy.
:p

[songstress]

Hello JPK,

I really don't know about faith healers and being asked to 'believe in mediums.' I don't know how anyone could believe in a medium - it is up to the sitter to verify information, not the medium - the medium acts like a 'telephone exchange'. That statement is just plain daft. It may be that some people let hysteria get in the way of analysing the truth of the matter. It is easy for a body of people led by a charismatic leader, to get whipped up into hysterics. Anything's possible then - just look at what happened to Germany in the 1930's.

I am not denouncing faith healers in the US, since I have hardly seen any, and cannot make a reasoned comment. We don't have that on telly in the UK.

If anyone asks you to 'believe in a medium', run a blinking mile!

Patsy.
:)

[songstress]

Hello Ashles,

The $1m prize?

Please forgive me if I respond with, 'Don't make me laugh, mate!'

That's all I am going to say on the matter of the so-called 'prize.'

Patsy.
:(

[songstress]

Hello Dr Adequate,

Spiritualist churches do provide services other than the usual Sunday demonstration of mediumship services. They arrange laying on of hands healing sessions (many Catholic churches do this, too) spiritual conselling services and opportunities for people of all persuasions to develop their abilities.

We always advise people who come for spiritual healing to consult their doctors and we never claim to cure anyone of any illness. It is 'complimentary' to conventional medicine, never 'alternative' to it. It is a peaceful and relaxing experience and spiritual healers undergo a training course, just as mediums do.

They also have question and answer evenings, parties, bazaars and many other sociable events. If the mediums employed were all frauds, the churches would not survive for long. People are not easily taken in, and would vote with their feet if they weren't getting good value.

And no - seances do not take place....heh!

Patsy.
:p

[JimTheBrit]

Originally posted by songstress
If the mediums employed were all frauds, the churches would not survive for long. People are not easily taken in [...] :eek: :eek:

[songstress]

Hello Stitch,

Thank you for your reply. Nice to meet you.

Mediums in the UK undergo training before they are let loose on the public. This means that if someone shows signs of having a 'gift' he or she is invited to join a 'circle.' This is a group of developing mediums, led by an experienced medium. The people are given exercises to do by the medium, which will develop their ability and refine it and direct it. At the end of a very long period, the circle members are free to practise mediumship. If anyone doesn't show the ability after a while, then they cannot, certainly not on people who are paying to see them. Practising on friends is different. Ideally, a medium even when trained, should sit in 'circle' so that her attunements remain refined.

Unlike spiritual healers, there is no register in the UK of genuine mediums. We are trying to get this changed, and along with registered complimentary healers, we need to be registered. Proper registration will protect the medium and the sitter. We are protected in law under the 'Fraudulent Mediums Act 1951' but we do need proper regulation and registration. Any medium who is deemed to be fraudulent can now be prosecuted.

Spiritualism is now a recognised religion in the UK.

Patsy.
:)

[songstress]

Jim,

We are governed by Act of Parliament. If mediums are frauds, then we can be prosecuted.

'Nuff said!

Patsy.
:(

[Azrael 5]

Mediums develop diabetes? Is there medical evidence to suggest the cause is changing vibrations? Why is it not a fact that coal miners develop diabetes,or road workers who use jackhammers? Thats vibration! How are mediums to be prosecuted as frauds if -like you-they wont be tested?;)

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Originally posted by songstress
Hello Stitch,

Thank you for your reply. Nice to meet you.

Mediums in the UK undergo training before they are let loose on the public. This means that if someone shows signs of having a 'gift' he or she is invited to join a 'circle.' This is a group of developing mediums, led by an experienced medium. The people are given exercises to do by the medium, which will develop their ability and refine it and direct it. At the end of a very long period, the circle members are free to practise mediumship. If anyone doesn't show the ability after a while, then they cannot, certainly not on people who are paying to see them. Practising on friends is different. Ideally, a medium even when trained, should sit in 'circle' so that her attunements remain refined.

Unlike spiritual healers, there is no register in the UK of genuine mediums. We are trying to get this changed, and along with registered complimentary healers, we need to be registered. Proper registration will protect the medium and the sitter. We are protected in law under the 'Fraudulent Mediums Act 1951' but we do need proper regulation and registration. Any medium who is deemed to be fraudulent can now be prosecuted.

Spiritualism is now a recognised religion in the UK.

Patsy.
:)

Recognised by who? Any source for this?

[Donks]

Originally posted by songstress
Spiritualism is now a recognised religion in the UK.
Patsy.
:)

Well, so is Jedism.

*The first person to link to snopes gets a lightsaber to the groin

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by songstress
If the mediums employed were all frauds, the churches would not survive for long. People are not easily taken in, and would vote with their feet if they weren't getting good value.

Patsy.
:p

Unfortunately, many people ARE easily taken in.

Yard hold couple over 'scam' made in heaven By Stewart Tendler, Crime Correspondent

AN FBI manhunt for a couple wanted in connection with an alleged £16 million religious charity scam ended yesterday in a small Shropshire market town.

Howard Welsh, 61, and Lee Hope Thrasher, 50, who met while working on a programme for crime victims in the US, face an extradition hearing at Bow Street Magistrates’ Court in London today.

They were arrested by Scotland Yard’s extradition squad as they got off a train in Whitchurch at lunchtime. The FBI had spent two years searching for them across Europe and had placed them on its most “wanted� list.

Liverpool-born Mr Welsh is said to have made a living from a “magic elixir� before going on the run. He broke his leg in a car accident in Belgium, went to hospital and vanished again.

. . .

US court records say that in October 1999 they opened bank accounts in the name of “Dominion of Heaven on Planet Earth� doing business as “Living Your Sole Purpose�.

Mr Welsh targeted religious people, many of them groups of families, and tried to appeal to their faith, telling them they should not fear that he would run off with their money. If they had faith, their deposits would triple, it was said.

The tax-free endowment would act like a pension. One promotional flier promised a 12 per cent return each month on a minimum investment of $50,000 (£27,000).

Another said that a $2,000 investment would be worth $6,260 after a year, $19,580 after two years and $1.8 million after six years.

The two are alleged to have first offered their investment plan to their friends and family members. It spread through e-mails and word of mouth until more than 1,000 investors had signed up.

An unidentified investor lost $8 million (£6.1m). Others who are said to have lost hundreds of thousands of dollars still continued to support the pair as they travel the world.

Times Online, November 30, 2004

[richardm]

Originally posted by songstress
Jim,

We are governed by Act of Parliament. If mediums are frauds, then we can be prosecuted.


While this is true, and there has in fact been the odd prosecution based on it recently, if challenged most mediums find that it is simply circumvented by claiming that it's all done for entertainment.

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by richardm
While this is true, and there has in fact been the odd prosecution based on it recently, if challenged most mediums find that it is simply circumvented by claiming that it's all done for entertainment.

So, an Act meant to protect the public from fraud gets turned on its head by mediums who now quote it to indicate they must be genuine or would have been prosecuted. How sneaky!

Do you happen to know if the law is different in Scots Law regarding mediums?

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Originally posted by songstress
Jim,

We are governed by Act of Parliament. If mediums are frauds, then we can be prosecuted.

'Nuff said!

Patsy.
:(

Which Act of Parliament and what does being governed by it mean in practical terms?

[richardm]

Originally posted by The Mighty Thor
So, an Act meant to protect the public from fraud gets turned on its head by mediums who now quote it to indicate they must be genuine or would have been prosecuted. How sneaky!

Do you happen to know if the law is different in Scots Law regarding mediums?

It is different; according to HMSO (http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1993/Ukpga_19930050_en_3.htm) , section 2 has been repealed, which reads:


(2) A person shall not be convicted of an offence under the foregoing subsection unless it is proved that he acted for reward; and for the purposes of this section a person shall be deemed to act for reward if any money is paid, or other valuable thing given, in respect of what he does, whether to him or to any other person.


So the act as a whole now reads:


1. Punishment of fraudulent mediums, etc.

(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, any person who:
(a) with intent to deceive purports to act as a spiritualistic medium or to exercise any powers of telepathy, clairvoyance or other similar powers, or
(b) in purporting to act as a spiritualistic medium or to exercise such powers as aforesaid, uses any fraudulent device, shall be guilty of an offence.

(3) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding (the prescribed sum) or to imprisonment for a tern not exceeding four months or to both such fine and such imprisonment, or on conviction on indictment to a fine... or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or to both such fine and such imprisonment.


(4) No proceedings for an offence under this section shall be, brought in England or Wales except by or with the consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions.

(5) Nothing in subsection (1) of this section shall apply to anything done solely for the purpose of entertainment


By my reading, that would remove the protection that mediums in a Spiritualist church would have, since although they are not performing for profit, they are pretending to be real mediums and not just for the entertainment of the masses. I'm not a lawyer though so it may not mean anything of the sort!

In Ireland you could nail them under section 10 of the Criminal Justice Act:


who by any false pretence with intent to defraud obtains from any other person any chattel, money or valuable security, or anything capable of being stolen to be delivered to himself or to any other pereson for the use or benefit or on account of himself or any other person shall be guilty of a misdemenaour and liable to penal servitude for any term not exceeding five years. Under the 1951 Act such an offence may be tried summarily in the District Court provided certain conditions are fulfilled. A false pretence of power to foretell the future would appear to be a false representation of present fact which would come within the section


(From here) (http://www.lawreform.ie/publications/data/volume4/lrc_30.html)

[Stitch]

Originally posted by songstress
Hello Geni,

Yes, the old seances had to go precisely for the reason of fraud.


Or to put it another way, people started to reaslise it was a con and so the mediums had to shift tack if the con was to be perpetuated.

Originally posted by songstress

Before then, anyone could set up cabinets, curtains and so on, and claim that they were 'in touch' with spirits. It caused uproar.

They still can, unless you know otherwise, there is no "medium register" where they have to prove (scientifically) their ability. Anybody can claim to be a medium, no proof is required, just a few believers and some anecdotes.

Originally posted by songstress

Not all mediums at that time were fraudulent (Florence Cook, for example) but many others were.

Please provide the evidence to show she was genuine

Originally posted by songstress

Mental mediumship is always practised in Spiritualist churches,

So Achora is not a mental medium then, although IIRC you cited him as an excellent example of one?? He clearly "practices" his trickery anywhere he sees fit, usually with a camera crew in tow.

Originally posted by songstress

seances are never practised. It is totally against ethical practise. A medium isn't necessary 'in touch with spirits' nor does she have to have a seance in which to practise. Mediumship is not only about giving messages, being a medium means that she lives a different lifestyle. It is more a 'spiritual advisor/counsellor' than someone who merely turns up at a church on a Sunday and takes a service. Many mediums work for nothing, and while it's rewarding, it is also a thankless job.

As for explaining it being complex, it is when trying to do so on a webforum. It is no good trying to do that. It is best explained when a person is in front of you, since a sitting with a medium shoudl be a total spiritual experience, explaining the dynamics without the physical contribution of the sitter is nigh impossible. It is basically about exchange of energies, and one cannot graps that feeling from mere words - one would have to experience it physically.

Many of us have, and remain un-convinced

Originally posted by songstress

Derek Acorah is an excellent medium, but my feeling is (after observing him on telly) is that he has been told to do some things e.g. being overtaken in trance, etc. A medium never does that unless she can be sure that she'll be safe. I cringe sometimes when I see the situations that Derek gets into, all in the name of good telly. He looks worn out.

Amazing what they can do with make-up

Originally posted by songstress

Another fact about mediums -

This will be good - hope you have evidence to back it up...

Originally posted by songstress

when a medium has been working non-stop for many years, she may develop diabetes. This is due to the constant changing of vibrations. This is another reason why it is impossible to explain on a webforum, how mental mediumship works. The curious observer would have to be with a medium for a period of time to understand it.

Patsy.
:p

Unless you have scientific proof of that, cobblers I say. First prove that mediums who work for many years develop diabetes, we'll save the postualtion on the actual causes once you have shown this to be true.

[Stitch]

Originally posted by songstress
Hello JPK,

I really don't know about faith healers and being asked to 'believe in mediums.'

--snip--

If anyone asks you to 'believe in a medium', run a blinking mile!

Patsy.
:)

The trouble is, the "information" supplied by mediums is so poor that you have to interpret what you are given. If you "believe" in the medium's abilities and mediumship in general you are more likely (I suspect) to find some loose connection in what is said and make a hit out of it. You are also more inclined to ignore the misses.

So in that vein we should run a mile from ALL mediums as they all require faith.

[Stitch]

Originally posted by songstress
Hello Ashles,

The $1m prize?

Please forgive me if I respond with, 'Don't make me laugh, mate!'

That's all I am going to say on the matter of the so-called 'prize.'

Patsy.
:(

And let me respond with "Don't make me laugh, mate!" that's all I am going to say on the matter of so called "genuine mediumship abilities".

You can run but you can't hide!

[richardm]

Originally posted by Stitch
First prove that mediums who work for many years develop diabetes, we'll save the postualtion on the actual causes once you have shown this to be true.

There could be something in that. Quite a lot of mediums seem to be overweight women, and there's a link between obesity and diabetes.

[Stitch]

Originally posted by songstress
Hello Stitch,

Thank you for your reply. Nice to meet you.

Mediums in the UK undergo training before they are let loose on the public. This means that if someone shows signs of having a 'gift' he or she is invited to join a 'circle.' This is a group of developing mediums, led by an experienced medium. The people are given exercises to do by the medium, which will develop their ability and refine it and direct it. At the end of a very long period, the circle members are free to practise mediumship. If anyone doesn't show the ability after a while, then they cannot, certainly not on people who are paying to see them. Practising on friends is different. Ideally, a medium even when trained, should sit in 'circle' so that her attunements remain refined.

Unlike spiritual healers, there is no register in the UK of genuine mediums. We are trying to get this changed, and along with registered complimentary healers, we need to be registered. Proper registration will protect the medium and the sitter. We are protected in law under the 'Fraudulent Mediums Act 1951' but we do need proper regulation and registration. Any medium who is deemed to be fraudulent can now be prosecuted.

Spiritualism is now a recognised religion in the UK.

Patsy.
:)

Hi Patsy - thanks for the response. A few more questions if you don't mind:
1) Can anybody attend a spiritualist church?
2) Who does one complain to if one is not happy with a reading, i.e. it is considered to be so inaccurate that it is likely to be cold-reading?
3) Is the invesigation public.
4) Do the churches publiscise the names of those they feel are not up to standard, if so where?
4) How many people have the church investigated for fraud?
5) How many have been expelled as a result?
6) How many would they have to expel before you changed you views on them in general?

Cheers.

[Stitch]

Originally posted by songstress
Jim,

We are governed by Act of Parliament. If mediums are frauds, then we can be prosecuted.

'Nuff said!

Patsy.
:(

Does your church attempt to prosecute mediums it considers fraudulent. If not why do you think they don't?

[Azrael 5]

Some links to Florence CookFlorence fraud 1 (http://www.prairieghosts.com/florence.html)

And hereFlorence Fraud2 (http://www.fst.org/cook2.htm)
Later, in May, Sir William actually saw the two forms together during a photographic experiment. In order to protect herself from the injuries of the flash light, Florence Cook, lying on the floor, muffled her face with a shawl

There are many other such gems in the latter link.:p

[Stitch]

Originally posted by richardm
There could be something in that. Quite a lot of mediums seem to be overweight women, and there's a link between obesity and diabetes.

Sure there "might" but let's see how many mediums have diabetes versus the national average before we start speculating on the causes of something that is "normal".

If mediums show higher than average instances of diabetes we can then start to look at discounting some of the more common aspects such as genectic pre-disposition, diet, lifestyle etc.

The main point I am trying to make is there has been one heck of a leap there starting from an un-substantiated statement. I appreciate I may be coming over as nit picking but, as has already been mentioned to songstress, she should be prepared to back up any claims she makes. IIRC she said she wouldn't be making any (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870701703#post1870701703), but there we go!!

[jambo372]

The sitters don't give single word answers out of boredom.

They must give answers such as the following :

yes
no
maybe/perhaps/possibly
I'll need to ask about it / unsure / don't know

The reason is simple : they must verify what is being said without giving away any additional information which might be useful for cold-reading or confuse the medium.

On the other hand something must be said : mediumship is essentially a form of 'communication', communication is a 2 way affair.

A plug is an example :
Spirit is the live wire
Material is the earth wire
the medium is the neutral wire

Patsy mentioned the telephone example earlier.

Spirit is on the "otherside of the line"
Material is on "this side of the line"
The medium is the telephone.

If you don't answer you'd be considered ignorant and the other part may eventually hang up.

JPK - It was from notes I took.
The sitters mentioned were "newcomers", the medium knew nothing about them until the spirit connection was made and they had no prior opportunity to collect information for hot reading.

They weren't agreeing just to satisfy the medium - they were obviously shocked by the accuracy of the mediums.

[Stitch]

Originally posted by jambo372
The sitters don't give single word answers out of boredom.

They must give answers such as the following :

yes
no
maybe/perhaps/possibly
I'll need to ask about it / unsure / don't know

The reason is simple : they must verify what is being said without giving away any additional information which might be useful for cold-reading or confuse the medium.

Yes, No, maybe etc is essential for cold reading, without it, cold reading fails. I'd be far more impreseed with no feedback at all until the end and if the medium can't see the facial / body language of the sitter, but we "know" that's not going to happen don't we?!

Originally posted by jambo372

---snip

If you don't answer you'd be considered ignorant and the other part may eventually hang up.


Oh gee, look at that, how convenient. Something that stops cold reading working also stops real readings from working.

Originally posted by jambo372

JPK - It was from notes I took.
The sitters mentioned were "newcomers", the medium knew nothing about them until the spirit connection was made and they had no prior opportunity to collect information for hot reading.

Please can we see the signed affidavit stating that:
1) The new comer don't know anybody at the church
2) They have not been to any other spiritualist church
3) They have not spoken to anybody about anything that came up in reading since it was known they were coming to the church.

If you can't provide it, I just sounds like a hot reading to me.

Originally posted by jambo372

They weren't agreeing just to satisfy the medium - they were obviously shocked by the accuracy of the mediums.
Can I see their statement where they confirm they were shocked please.

As stated before, hi-lights from notes wll make your case very nicely. Now show us the full, complete, un-edited transcript and we'll show you a hot/cold reading

[jambo372]

The transcript wasn't edited.
She definitely wasn't using cold reading - she was far too accurate.
She can't use hot reading - the sitters concerned were people who showed up at random, the medium had never saw or heard them before in her life.

[Ashles]

Hello Ashles,

The $1m prize?

Please forgive me if I respond with, 'Don't make me laugh, mate!'

That's all I am going to say on the matter of the so-called 'prize.'

Patsy.

I'm sorry, what?

I don't really understand this post.

Do you have some criticisms of the prize? If so we would be interested to hear what they are.

You say you came here to learn so I hope your criticisms of the $1million challenge aren't based solely on statements made by people on other websites, as they might not actually know what they are talking about.

I am interested in hearing your elaboration on your post.

[Dragon]

Originally posted by songstress
Jim,

We are governed by Act of Parliament. If mediums are frauds, then we can be prosecuted.

'Nuff said!

Patsy.
:( No, you are not "governed" by an act of parliament -

The Fraudulent Mediums Act 1951 (http://www.tonyyouens.com/fma.htm) creates an offence - it does not provide any system of governance. It is a very difficult offence to prove, and if the fraudulent medium is just cold reading then I would say a conviction would be impossible. The above link is from Tony Youens' website and gives some figures for prosecutions under the Act (they are very few and far between).
Also - A person shall not be convicted of an offence under the foregoing subsection unless it is proved that he acted for reward;Am I right in saying that mediums in your church do not charge for readings? If so, no fear of prosecution at all.

[JPK]

Good morning songstress,

Originally posted by songstress
Hello JPK,

I really don't know about faith healers and being asked to 'believe in mediums.' I don't know how anyone could believe in a medium - it is up to the sitter to verify information, not the medium - the medium acts like a 'telephone exchange'.
That statement is just plain daft.

I was referring to a statement made by Jambo372 on another thread.
Originally posted by jambo372 on 11-19-2004 06:31 PM

Naturally being a spiritualist I'm obliged to trust mediums anyway.


Originally posted by songstress

It may be that some people let hysteria get in the way of analysing the truth of the matter. It is easy for a body of people led by a charismatic leader, to get whipped up into hysterics. Anything's possible then - just look at what happened to Germany in the 1930's.
Once again, I had never seen Jambo372 give as detailed an account of these readings before. I assumed they were one on one. But if his particular church requires a belief in mediums and then does these readings in front of the entire congregation, I can see why people are giving the types of answers they did.
Originally posted by songstress

I am not denouncing faith healers in the US, since I have hardly seen any, and cannot make a reasoned comment. We don't have that on telly in the UK.
They are pretty funny to watch on TV until you start to think of all the money they are taking in from these people that put their faith in them. Then it starts to get a bit sad.
Originally posted by songstress

If anyone asks you to 'believe in a medium', run a blinking mile!
Now, that’s something I think we can agree on.

Good morning Jambo372

Originally posted by jambo372

They must give answers such as the following :
yes
no
maybe/perhaps/possibly
I'll need to ask about it / unsure / don't know

The reason is simple : they must verify what is being said without giving away any additional information which might be useful for cold-reading or confuse the medium.
Yes/no/maybe… is all that’s needed for cold reading.
Originally posted by jambo372

JPK - It was from notes I took.
They were very descriptive I must say. About how big was this room where the readings were taking place? Also, at what point of the evening did this happen? In fact if you could, is it possible to give a type of timeline of what happens to this church, from when you get there to when you leave describing the types of events that take place?
Originally posted by jambo372

The sitters mentioned were "newcomers", the medium knew nothing about them until the spirit connection was made and they had no prior opportunity to collect information for hot reading.
You assume the medium knew nothing about them. When you say newcomers, do you mean new to your church or new to any spiritual church? Where you able to talk to them about why they decided to come there?
Originally posted by jambo372
They weren't agreeing just to satisfy the medium - they were obviously shocked by the accuracy of the mediums.
Obviously.
Once again Jambo372, thanks for the info.

JPK

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by songstress
Hello Ashles,

The $1m prize?

Please forgive me if I respond with, 'Don't make me laugh, mate!'

That's all I am going to say on the matter of the so-called 'prize.'

Patsy.
:(
Any specific criticism could be debunked, so... an excuse with no actual substance! Marvellous.

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by songstress
And no - seances do not take place....heh!
Except, apparently, in the church jambo goes to.

Or perhaps they are No True Spiritualists?

I'm still puizzled by your reference to "mediumship services", while still maintaining that seances are not held. A medium allows you to communicate with or see spirits. A session in which this happens is called a seance. What other services can a medium provide besides holding a seance? If you're not holding a seance, you're not communicating with spirits, so you're not acting as a medium. Still baffled on this point.

[Stitch]

Originally posted by jambo372
The transcript wasn't edited.


And you plan to prove this how exactly? A RSA Shorthand qualification may be a start, not much of one, but a start non the less.

Originally posted by jambo372

She definitely wasn't using cold reading - she was far too accurate.


Anecdotal, unless you can provide something a little more concrete, such as a tape of the sitting then we have only your word for this.

Originally posted by jambo372

She can't use hot reading - the sitters concerned were people who showed up at random, the medium had never saw or heard them before in her life.

She says, they say and you believe. Now prove it - see my previous post:


Please can we see the signed affidavit stating that:
1) The new comer don't know anybody at the church
2) They have not been to any other spiritualist church
3) They have not spoken to anybody about anything that came up in reading since it was known they were coming to the church.

If you can't provide it, I just sounds like a hot reading to me.


Seems we are still at hot reading.

[Stitch]

Originally posted by Dr Adequate
Except, apparently, in the church jambo goes to.

Or perhaps they are No True Spiritualists?

I'm still puizzled by your reference to "mediumship services", while still maintaining that seances are not held. A medium allows you to communicate with or see spirits. A session in which this happens is called a seance. What other services can a medium provide besides holding a seance? If you're not holding a seance, you're not communicating with spirits, so you're not acting as a medium. Still baffled on this point.

Sounds like semantics to me, I think our definition of "seance" is "somebody communicating with spirits" where it would seem that the spiritualist view is that a seance is the old style Victorian approach of people sitting round a table, holding hands in a darkend room with people ringing bells and such like. Whereas the "sitting" or "reading" they now have is just a verbal arrangement where the medium asks vague questions until somebody in the audience answers and then they take it from there. Call it what you like, it's all the same to me until somebody can prove otherwise.

[Azrael 5]

I repeat:Jambo372 give me details of this fine medium or where I can see her practice,Im sure there will be JREF members close enough to visit the church.Why should we miss out on such a marvel? Same applies to songstress.Any chance of a demonstrstion?;)

[jambo372]

We don't have seances. By seance I mean sitting round a table holding hands in the dark.

We just have plain sittings followed by a healing circle.

Sometmes we have specials with psychic artists, transfiguration, psychometry Q&A sessions etc.

We also have a development circle.

Stitch - I was talking to her when she came in and she told me she'd never been to any spiritualist churches before.

Azrael 5
She gives demonstrations in Spiritualist Churches all over the country. Skeptics might cause bedlam in the church.

[Ashles]

I like Azrael's link (http://www.fst.org/cook2.htm) about Florence Cook:

There is one incident which bears mention concerning Florence Cook and her new control, Marie. On January 9, 1880, during a materialization sitting, one of the sitters, Sir George Sitwell, reached into the cabinet and grabbed Marie. She did not dissolve. She was found to be the medium wearing only her corsets and flannel petticoat. The captured pieces of garment were brought out of the cabinet by another sitter. This time, the medium did not fall ill. It is said that the medium was enveloped in white drapery when Sir George grabbed her.

One explanation of this incident which had been given was that it was an optical illusion created by the darkness. Personally, I do not feel this explanation bears any weight. Did Florence Cook cheat at this sitting? She, alone, knows for sure. To me, the evidence indicates that she did. But, as with the famed Boston medium, Margery Crandon, we must not assess a medium's whole career based upon one isolated sitting. To be sure, cheating is cheating, and that cannot be excused. But, to dismiss all the genuine phenomena because of one incident would be unwise, even though it will cast a shadow of doubt on the whole.


But the bit that made me laugh was:

"one of the sitters, Sir George Sitwell"

What an wonderfully appropriate name.

[Ashles]

Okay Jambo, so, not only are we supposed to take your word about the amazing things this 'medium' does, we aren't even allowed to see her? Or know her name?

I understand your fear that what you desperately want to believe in may look painfuly transparent as trickery when viewed through someone else's eyes, but surely people are allowed to make up their own minds.

I might as well say I have a pair of shoes that can fly around the room. But you're not allowed to see them.

[jambo372]

Her name is Glynnis. I can't remember her surname.

[Ashles]

We were hoping for just a tad more information than that.

[Ashles]

Hang on - you transcribed her entire session because you are so impressed with her, but you never wrote down her surname?

If it were me I might have noted that down too. But maybe I'm just a pedant for detail like that.

[Ossai]

Songstress
The $1m prize?

Please forgive me if I respond with, 'Don't make me laugh, mate!'

That's all I am going to say on the matter of the so-called 'prize.'
Really?
Go here
One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge (http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html) for the rules.

If your claim involves ‘the money doesn’t exist’ then read point 8
At the formal test, in advance, an independent person will be placed in charge of a personal check from James Randi for US$10,000. In the event that the claimant is successful under the agreed terms and conditions, that check shall be immediately surrendered to the claimant, and within ten days the James Randi Educational Foundation will pay to the claimant the remainder of the reward, for a total of US$1,000,000. One million dollars in negotiable bonds is held by an investment firm in New York, in the "James Randi Educational Foundation Prize Account" as surety for the prize funds. Validation of this account and its current status may be obtained by contacting the Foundation by telephone, fax, or e-mail.
Proper registration will protect the medium and the sitter. We are protected in law under the 'Fraudulent Mediums Act 1951' but we do need proper regulation and registration. Any medium who is deemed to be fraudulent can now be prosecuted. Theoretically If I were to attend a church service and I claimed that the registered medium was fraudulent, what would happen to the medium? Could the church also be prosecuted for employing a false medium? What court administered test would be performed to determine if the medium were false or not?

Ossai

[Azrael 5]

Next he'll be telling us he cant remember what church it was,but he can remember she was amazingly accurate!!
From my previous link His book, Researches in the Phenomena of Spiritualism, aroused a storm of ridicule, sarcasm, and protest. His reputation as an astute scientist and researcher was questioned by many people, both from within and from without the scientific community.
..........and obviously made not a blind bit of difference!:D

[jambo372]

Who is it your referring to ?

[Azrael 5]

Originally posted by jambo372
Who is it your referring to ?
Is that adressed to me? If so,the answer is William Crookes(good name for a psychic investigator)the link is higher up the thread in my post.
Name of the Church, Jambo372?:(

[The Mighty Thor]

jambo666: A plug is an example :
Spirit is the live wire
Material is the earth wire
the medium is the neutral wire

Maybe it was bad wiring that burned the church down:D

If the mediums (Glynnis and Rebecca) were new to the church, and the sitters you referenced were also strangers, how do you know they weren't stooges brought along by the mediums?

There is NO WAY that these readings could have happened EXCEPT BY HOT READING

Was the Coatbridge area a mining area?

[Stitch]

Originally posted by jambo372
---snip---

Stitch - I was talking to her when she came in and she told me she'd never been to any spiritualist churches before.
---snip---

Sorry jambo372 but your just not getting this, I keep saying that anecdotes are not suitable as evidence and so you provide me with yet more anecdotes.

You need to provide something concrete here, at the moment your "story" is full of potential trickery holes. You need to plug some of these holes with hard evidence if you are to be taken seriously.

[songstress]

Dear Stitch,

If you are so certain that mental mediums practise fraud on a grand scale, especially in the Spiritualist movement, I suggest that you prove it to my satisfaction.

Chronic scepticism (nay, 'debunking') of everything is akin to religious fundamental fervour. It's worrying.

Patsy.
;)

[The Don]

Originally posted by songstress
Dear Stitch,

If you are so certain that mental mediums practise fraud on a grand scale, especially in the Spiritualist movement, I suggest that you prove it to my satisfaction.

Chronic scepticism (nay, 'debunking') of everything is akin to religious fundamental fervour. It's worrying.

Patsy.
;)
Exceptional claims require exceptional evidence. In this case you are claiming that you, and your colleagues can communicate directly with dead people.

ALL psychic performances I have ever seen (live and edited on TV) have shared the same characteristics:

- Generalism
- Fishing for hits with hits being reinforced and misses being ignored
- Where a person is uncooperative, nothing is found

Often I have found that readings done in the past and taped are as accurate and relevant to myself or Mrs Don as they were for the person in the audience. To me, this seems to indicate that there is either fraud or delusion going on there.

What would provide proof for me ?

I someone managed to provide a reading for me, without knowing my name, without interracting directly with me, allowing only yes or no answers. This reading should provide specific, relevant information rather than just knowing that "an older person, a mother figure, letters E or M wants to thank me for the flowers and let me know that she loves me and she is happy"

[Azrael 5]

I guess I must remain polite(I do struggle when dealing with mediums)so I say to songstress you a lying delusional fraud-no offense!:D

[jambo372]

The mediums weren't new the 2 sitters I mentioned were.
It was a mining area.

There is definitely another way it could have been done - spirit communication.

The church I was in was Coatbridge Spiritualist Church but the mediums travel around several different Spiritualists Churches to work for spirit.

[Azrael 5]

Then go to the church ask them for the details of the mediums,name,number etc.;)

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by songstress
Dear Stitch,

If you are so certain that mental mediums practise fraud on a grand scale, especially in the Spiritualist movement, I suggest that you prove it to my satisfaction.
There have been lots of cases of mediums being exposed as frauds. For example, the Fox sisters who started it all in the first place, one of whom confessed and explained how they performed their "paranormal" feats. Ever since then, people have been claiming that they could do for real what the original claimants did by a hoax.
Chronic scepticism (nay, 'debunking') of everything is akin to religious fundamental fervour. It's worrying.

Patsy.
;)
Weird.

How can you possibly find a state of enquiring doubt similar to a state of blinkered certainty?

You will find that religious folk don't go in much for questioning, asking for evidence, seeking alternative explantions. That they dislike this very much. That they fear and loathe it. What scepticism (or "chronic scepticism" as you prefer to call it) resembles is, of course, science, where everything has to be challenged, debated, put to the test. Any science department putting up with the standards of evidence, proof and debate used by Troo Believers would grind to an immediate unproductive halt. Only by sceptical inquiry has anyone managed to make any sense of the world so far.

In any case, you shouldn't let it worry you. Someone has to try to sort truth from nonsense, after all. What's worrying is when people believe stuff without question. Like, "You'll go to Paradise and have sex with seventy-seven virgins if you fly this plane into this building". That would be "fundamentalist religious fervour". Asking "How on earth do you know that. Where's your evidence? Where's your proof?", would be scepticism, which is the antidote. It would be nice if people asked those questions a bit more often.

[Azrael 5]

Doris Stokes being another exposed medium.Where are the mediums that have been found to be true? Apart from these listed here:-








;)

[jambo372]

They won't give phone numbers.

[Azrael 5]

Originally posted by jambo372
They won't give phone numbers.

Well just their full names would do...;)

[JPK]

Good evening Jambo372,

Any chance of getting you to describe what goes on at these meetings? From the moment you get there until you leave. The notes you put in your post seem to describe people being called out for readings. Where is a medium located and where are the sitters? Is this the only type of thing that goes on there or are private readings done as well? Do they have people right questions on cards and submit them as well?

JPK

[jambo372]

JPK
You go in at the back where you can have tea, coffee and a smoke before you go in to the church. You can buy a raffle ticket.
You then go in and take a seat in the audience.
The leader, a speaker and the medium(s) sit on the platform at the front.

The leader begins the session by ringing a bell and saying "Good evening friends, welcome to the church, on the platform tonight we have ... medium(s) name, please be upstanding for the first hymn ... a named song and the page it appears on."

They then sing a second hymn.

The speaker is asked to stand up by the leader and read out a story or poem called a "lesson".

They sing for a third time.

The leader invites one of the mediums to give a blessing and speech, they call it an "address".

They sing a fourth song.

The leader says mediums name will now give a demonstration of clairvoyance, should s(he) come to anyone of you answer with a clear yes or no and nothing more.

Medium picks out people at random to give messages.

Clairvoyance finishes.

Raffle winner is announced and given a prize.
Donation basket is passed round.

A final hymn is sang.

Refreshments are available at the back of the hall again, you can now leave or stay for the healing circle which starts after the refreshment area closes.

I've never saw them do the writing questions thing.
Private readings are available if you ask for them.

We sometimes have special promotions eg psychometry, psychic artists, transfiguration, Q & A sessions, divination etc.

We also have a development circle for people who wish to further develop their psychic capabilities and train to become mediums.

[jambo372]

Azrael 5
I'll try and find out her full name.
What use is that to you anyway ?

[JPK]

Good afternoon Jambo372,

Thank you very much for that. It certainly gave me a better idea of what goes on. Do the mediums as partake in the pre-reading activities? For that matter are they allowed to interact with the sitters at all before the readings are given?
I would also be very interested if you could possibly record one of the poems said. I realize this might be difficult. And about how many readings are generaly given in a night?

JPK

[jambo372]

The mediums usually arrive at the last minute just as the service is starting and have no time to talk to sitters. If they arrive sooner than this they sit on the platform or the room from which the convex mirror was recently removed.

The number of messages depends on the speed of the medium, the spirits and the length of the messages, on average there will be 5-10 per night, the medium will try to get around as many people as possible without rushing and losing their concentration.

[Azrael 5]

Does the medium have to draw the raffle winner or does she just KNOW who wins?
The mediums full name is of use because she may be near me some day and I can pop along and expose her as a charlatan!:p

[jambo372]

It's usually the caretaker who draws the raffle.
I only remember the medium drawing the raffle once - she picked her own ticket.

You'll have a hard time exposing Glynnis - she's genuine.

[Azrael 5]

Originally posted by jambo372
It's usually the caretaker who draws the raffle.
I only remember the medium drawing the raffle once - she picked her own ticket.

You'll have a hard time exposing Glynnis - she's genuine.
What scientific evidence under strict controlled circumstances has led you to believe this?;)

[jambo372]

I've saw her power with my own eyes ... she's fabulous.

You may be disappointed if you try to expose her.

PS She's not the kind of medium to mess with.

[JPK]

Good evening Jambo372,

Originally posted by jambo372
I've saw her power with my own eyes ... she's fabulous.

You may be disappointed if you try to expose her.

PS She's not the kind of medium to mess with.

Certainly you must agree that you are not the most critical person when it comes to examining the psychics? You enjoy the mystery and that's fine.
Do you think it would be possible to record one of the poems the next time you go?

JPK

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by jambo372
I've saw her power with my own eyes ... she's fabulous.

You may be disappointed if you try to expose her.

PS She's not the kind of medium to mess with.

Why?

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by songstress
Dear Stitch,

If you are so certain that mental mediums practise fraud on a grand scale, especially in the Spiritualist movement, I suggest that you prove it to my satisfaction.

Chronic scepticism (nay, 'debunking') of everything is akin to religious fundamental fervour. It's worrying.

Patsy.
;)

Notice that it is songstress who is first in the thread to come out with the snide accusations, and who turns the challenge on its head. If ANY medium, in (or without) the Spiritualist church, can win the Randi challenge, that would be enough to change a lot of minds, make a lot of money, and to DRAW CONVERTS to the church. It is fallacious to declare there are no real mediums anywhere in the world. But it is correct to say that any mediums that have been thoroughly tested to modern standards have been proven to be frauds. Indeed, most who were tested by lesser standards, were proven to be frauds -- as with the Houdini cases. If Mrs Piper were operating today, it would be easy to prove she was a fraud. Her investigators, however, were incompetent and not the disinterested parties they first appear.

"Chronic" does mean what songstress thinks it means. I say this so as she can accuse us of pedantry as well as being fundamentalist bigots that are "worrying" - like the KKK or National Socialist Party were "worrying", I suppose.

Madam. You say that you talk to and listen to the spirits of dead people. SHOW US THE EVIDENCE!

[jambo372]

Her name is Glynnis Dailly.

[jambo372]

I seriously doubt that you know her.

[Azrael 5]

Jambo372 you seem to know a lot about this medium all of a sudden.Initially you didnt know her name,then you gave us her first name now we've got both names and a warning not to mess with her! What will she do? Turn me into a newt??;)

[H3LL]

Originally posted by jambo372
You'll have a hard time exposing Glynnis - she's genuine.

A genuine FRAUD.

IMHO these sick parasites preying upon vulnerable people either to inflate their own ego or line their pockets are the worst of the woo-woo bunch. The very bottom of a very rancid barrel.

Jambo372, I see from your many threads that you are ready to believe almost anything. I sincerely wish that you would look at these monsters with clearer eyes and see them for what they are. You have been given many suggestions...Try a few.

You don't need to discard your beliefs in an after-life, but this woman is a bad, bad person and is taking advantage of you. Try to see her for what she is.

A fraud, a cheat and a liar.

[Stitch]

Originally posted by songstress
Dear Stitch,

If you are so certain that mental mediums practise fraud on a grand scale, especially in the Spiritualist movement, I suggest that you prove it to my satisfaction.

Chronic scepticism (nay, 'debunking') of everything is akin to religious fundamental fervour. It's worrying.

Patsy.
;)

I think The Don has covered most of the salient points.

I was asking about your church, how many have they thrown out, do they publish etc. I am not claiming fraud is widespread at this time, I am just looking for evidence that your church actually actively seek it out themseleves and do thrown people out when they find frauds.

[Stitch]

Originally posted by jambo372
I've saw her power with my own eyes ... she's fabulous.

You may be disappointed if you try to expose her.

PS She's not the kind of medium to mess with.

You mean she gets stroppy or walks off if sceptics start asking questions or challenging her? I am sure most of the sceptics on here would be more than happy to have a discussion with her and see how good she really is!

[jambo372]

Azrael 5
Initially I didn't know her name ?
I knew her first name not her surname.
I found her 2nd name name out at the spooky meeting.

H3LL
You DO NOT KNOW SHE'S A FRAUD .
You have no evidence. You don't even know the woman.
She hasn't taken advantage of me ... or anyone else incidentally.

[Azrael 5]

I dont know she's a fraud?
Well actually, I'm betting my house she is.Get it through your blinkered mind jambo372,since spiritualism began in earnest with the Fox sisters not one person has EVER proved contact with spirits/the dead call it what you wish.
I have a £90,000 house,its hers after she proves she's contacting the dead.Back to you.:(

[jambo372]

Several people have.

[Ashles]

Several people have.
No jambo, no-one has EVER proved this.

Just repeating yourself and denying it will not make it true.

If you can produce one single example of a proven case of contacting the dead then please do.

But you can't because it has never happened.

Hope we're clear on that now.

[jambo372]

DD Home is one example.
Rudi Schneider another.

[Azrael 5]

New names on me ,of course you'll be citing the references for this proof.Wont you?:p

[jambo372]

Her is one :
http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/mediums/home.htm

[Ashles]

Jambo we already aware of what you consider to be proof (unsubstantiated stories).

Sadly that isn't actual proof.

Also all your examples always seem to be people who are dead and can't be tested any more.
It's a bit odd that, despite the fact that these amazing people litter history (well history as recounted by paranormal websites anyway), none of them exist today.

I wonder why that is?

So anyway, just to recap, no proof exists.

[Azrael 5]

Originally posted by jambo372
Her is one :
http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/mediums/home.htm
Totally unbiased account unsuprisingly.Home was exposed as a fraud on a few occasions ,once at a seance where he claimed to be materiazling the son of poet Robert Browning

A Magician among the spirits-Harry Houdini,
When a face was materialized and said to be that of the son who had died in infancy,Browning seized the the supposed materialized head and discovered it to be the bare foot of Home.Incidentally Browning had never lost an infant son.The living son in a letter to The London Times December 5,1902 referring to this occurence said"Home was detected in a vulgar fraud"
He achieved such amazing feats as floating in the air ,in a darkened room!! And floating out of a window(which no-one actually saw,merely see him leave one room and appear in another-somehow ! Usual Victorian parlor tricks Jambo372.Oh,do try come up with your own evidence instaed of just googling everything.:p

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by jambo372
Her is one :
http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/mediums/home.htm

Have you learned NOTHING here?

How many times do you have to be told that:

1. The burden of proof is on the medium.

2. Anecdotes (stories) are not proof, no matter how widely they are believed or how often they are repeated.

3. All properly tested mediums have been proven to be frauds.

4. No medium EVER has provided scientific evidence that they talk to and hear the dead.

5. There ARE NO SPIRITS! When people die, they decompose. That is it.

6. Santa Claus is not real.

[songstress]

Mighty Thor,

Wasn't being 'snide', as you put it.

I have seen plenty of 'debunking' on here, but not much scepticism. So I thought that instead of we mediums trying to prove things, perhaps the debunkers could prove their theories instead. After all, we're the ones being accused. Innocent until proven guilty...so if you think I'm guilty of fraud, prove it! That's all I'm saying.

Nothing snide about that.

Patsy.

[Ashles]

Songstress, I am still interested to hear what your problems are with the $1 million challenge.

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by songstress
Hello Ashles,

The $1m prize?

Please forgive me if I respond with, 'Don't make me laugh, mate!'

That's all I am going to say on the matter of the so-called 'prize.'

Patsy.
:(

That was snide, songstress.

I could not possibly prove you are a fraud.

Take the Challenge and prove you are genuine.

[Dr Adequate]

To ignore the possibilty that songstress might simply be ... mistaken ... in her belief that she communicates with the dead is foolish. And rude.

[jambo372]

Azrael 5
I don't trust any sources from Houdini - he framed Mina Crandon.

[Ashles]

I don't trust any sources from Houdini - he framed Mina Crandon.
So it's official.
You listen only to sources which agree with what you already think.

What about History.net - are they a reliable source?

The Houdini contoversy can be read here (http://www.thehistorynet.com/ah/blmediumandmagician/)

But more interestingly is how Mina's career ended:
By 1928, Margery [Mina's 'stage' name] had added yet another effect to her repertoire, one that promised to excite even more speculation. In recent séances, Walter [Mina's older brother who had died, but was a regular spirit visitor at Mina's seances] had hinted that it might be possible for him to leave behind a fingerprint. On a visit to her dentist, Dr. Frederick Caldwell, Margery asked if the hot wax used to take dental impressions might also be used to obtain Walter's fingerprint. Caldwell demonstrated how well the wax preserved his thumbprint and gave Margery his sample print and all the necessary materials to make new ones.

That very night, Walter left a thumbprint in the wax. When a so-called fingerprint expert used by the Crandons said the print matched one taken from an old razor that once belonged to Walter Stinson, Margery appeared to have confounded the skeptics. Yet when psychic researcher E.E. Dudley set out to compare Walter's wax print with those of people in the Crandon circle, he made a surprising discovery: Walter's thumbprint was identical in every way to that of Margery's dentist, Dr. Caldwell. Someone had apparently used the sample thumbprint Dr. Caldwell had made for Margery to create a metal die-stamp suitable for making impressions in wax. The ax had finally fallen. Even many devoted adherents backed away from their earlier endorsements. Malcolm Bird, once her staunchest defender, admitted that at times he had been guilty of elaborations and half-truths. The scientific community let it be known that Margery's séances no longer held any interest.


Maybe Houdini's methods were incorrect, or maybe they weren't and he was the victim of an attmpt to discredit him.

But either way it looks like his opinions about Mina were correct.
At least some of her results were fraud and trickery. It's very hard to believe the rest weren't as well.

[jambo372]

There is only evidence against the finger print - nothing else.

[Ashles]

So evidence was found that she had definitely cheated.

Explanations were given as to how she could have cheated on other occasions.
But you don't believe she cheated on those occasions. You believe she genuinely contacted the dead those times.
She just chose to cheat later on.

And do you see why this makes you look sort of gullible and credulous?

You believe Uri Geller is a fraud now.
Maybe he only bends the spoon by trickery some of the time. That's equivalent to what you're saying.

[Azrael 5]

Songstress there are many financial prizes available for anyone who can prove paranormal powers(i.e talking to the dead)so if you have a problem with Randi's million,take one of the other test.Or carry on pretending you can contact the dead.;)

[jambo372]

Explanations were GIVEN NOT PROVEN.

Fingerprints don't explain Walter's voice, the ectoplasmic glove etc.

Maybe Uri G only uses trickery some of the time - for all I know that could be the case.

[jambo372]

Azrael 5
Maybe Patsy has already taken other tests.

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by jambo372
Explanations were GIVEN NOT PROVEN.

Fingerprints don't explain Walter's voice, the ectoplasmic glove etc.

Maybe Uri G only uses trickery some of the time - for all I know that could be the case. :crazy:
Go on gawping at known conmen, then. But don't expect us to join you in trusting frauds and crooks.

[Azrael 5]

Come on now Jambo,the joke's over.No-one can be as blinkered as you!You believe blindly and take everything at face value,I know children with more skepticism than you! If Patsy had ytaken other tests she would have said so ,and also wouldnt be on here if so.As she would have been exposed there and then!:D

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by Azrael 5
Or carry on pretending you can contact the dead.;)
"Believing", Azrael 5. The word is "believing". Not "pretending", that's something else.

If you guys go on trolling we'll never have anyone to talk to except idiots like Ian and lifegazer. Stop it.

[JPK]

Unless a medium is caught every single time they perform, except for once, and still manages to stay in buisness, Jambo372, will claim that the one time they were not caught they were using actual psychic abilities.
We've been down this road before ...

JPK

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by Azrael 5
I dont know she's a fraud?
Well actually, I'm betting my house she is.Get it through your blinkered mind jambo372,since spiritualism began in earnest with the Fox sisters not one person has EVER proved contact with spirits/the dead call it what you wish.
I have a £90,000 house,its hers after she proves she's contacting the dead.Back to you.:(

Is your mini challenge open to songstress, too?

If, as Doc A suggests, songstress is simply mistaken about her powers, this would be a chance for her to find out if she is mistaken or if she is a genuine psychic.

And it would be helpful if she would answer Ashles' question about the Randi Challenge.

[Hellbound]

Originally posted by songstress
Mighty Thor,

Wasn't being 'snide', as you put it.

I have seen plenty of 'debunking' on here, but not much scepticism. So I thought that instead of we mediums trying to prove things, perhaps the debunkers could prove their theories instead. After all, we're the ones being accused. Innocent until proven guilty...so if you think I'm guilty of fraud, prove it! That's all I'm saying.

Nothing snide about that.

Patsy.

Just to point out:

Innocent until proven guilty is quite simply a human construction, a patchwork to cover our own faults, and has no bearing on truth or falsity.

In science, there is no such thing. Guilty until proven innocent. Or, more correctly, false until proven true. The reason mediums are continually asked to prove their claims is because they never have. The best we can get are questionable studies showing marginal effects, not the spectacular astounding hits many report when not in controlled conditions. And this attitude doesn't just apply to paranormal claims, but to all claims. New scienctific theories are met with as much scrutiny, and expected to prove themselves before acceptance. Look at cold fusion...which did turn out to be false. Or a better example, General Relativity. Most professionals hated Einstein's GR, because it turned physics on its head. However, it became accepted within a decade or so, because it was tested and the evidence was there. Mediums have had hundreds of years to prove themselves, and still fail.

So yes, we are a bit skeptical of these claims, and yes, we do expect proof. If that can't be provided, then I'm sorry, but you'll have to resing yourself to being considered wrong and/or deluded. No one's ever disproved Invisible Pink Unicorns, either, but I don't worry about getting a horn in my backside.

[Azrael 5]

Yes Mighty Thor its open to songstress,if she fancies a go....;)

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by Azrael 5
Yes Mighty Thor its open to songstress,if she fancies a go....;)

I have a spare room, in case you lose your £90,000 house.;)

[Azrael 5]

Originally posted by The Mighty Thor
I have a spare room, in case you lose your £90,000 house.;) How sweet.....

But we all know that aint gonna happen...just in case:has it got satellite?:D

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by Azrael 5
How sweet.....

But we all know that aint gonna happen...just in case:has it got satellite?:D

If mediumship is proven true, you won't need satellite.:D

[Azrael 5]

No,I'll be world famous....:D

[jambo372]

Why would proof of mediumship make you famous ?

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by jambo372
Why would proof of mediumship make you famous ?
:crazy:

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by jambo372
Why would proof of mediumship make you famous ?

As the man who PROVED, once and for all, that there is life after death.

Of course, the medium would be even more famous.

[jambo372]

It would have been the medium who PROVED it, so only the medium should get any credit.

[jambo372]

And of course the spirits.

[Ashles]

They could do Parkinson and This Morning.

[jambo372]

Who ?

[Ashles]

The medium and the spirits.

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by jambo372
It would have been the medium who PROVED it, so only the medium should get any credit.

Who would believe the medium? They say they have proof now but can't show it by taking and passing the challenges. (There are challenges apart from Randi's)

If a respected tester and medium proved there was life after death, it would be in every newspaper in the world.

Billions of people would want to hear what Heaven is really like from the spirits, and get good advice on the real, sure way to get there at death.

[The Mighty Thor]

jambo and songstress:

Will there be cigars and whisky and soda in Spiritualist Heaven?

Sir Oliver Lodge certainly thought so.

On November 25, Mrs. Cheves, a complete stranger, wrote a letter saying that she had a photograph of the officers of the South Lancashire Regiment of which Raymond Lodge was a second lieutenant and offered to send it. In a séance on December 3, Gladys Leonard described the photograph, featuring Raymond sitting on the ground and an officer placing his hand on Raymond's shoulder. The photograph arrived on December 7 and corresponded with the description in every detail.

Many other messages, bearing the authentic stamp of Raymond's identity, came through. The most curious was one about "Mr. Jackson.'' "Feda,'' Leonard's control, said that Raymond mixed it up with a bird and a pedestal. The truth of the matter was that Jackson was a peacock which, after its death, was stuffed and put on a pedestal.

Lodge displayed the whole mass of evidential communications in his book Raymond, including the reference to cigars and whiskey and soda in the afterlife

And note this FAILED TEST.

The post-mortal identity test of Lodge's survival involved the depositing of a set of envelopes with the Society for Psychical Research and the London Spiritualist Alliance, with instructions for consecutive opening of the envelopes. The packet in the possession of the Society for Psychical Research contained seven envelopes, one inside another, containing clues when opened consecutively. The instructions were somewhat complex and, owing to the war years following his death, could not be applied. The final envelope with the test message was opened February 10, 1947. No psychic had identified it. The test did not lead to the evidence of survival hoped for (see Journal of the SPR Vol. 38, pp. 121-134).

http://www.spiritwritings.com/oliverjosephlodge.html

[The Mighty Thor]

Anyone not aware how ruthless and uncaring mediums can be should read this page of Lodge's "Raymond".

Note that at one point Mrs Leonard plants the thought in the Lodge parents that they might want to "go over" to their son.

I wonder is Mrs Leonard was in Lodge's Will?

http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/books/lodge/raymond/20.htm

[jambo372]

The tester wouldn't have proven anything.

The spirits and medium would be the ones to PROVE it ...
The spirits make their presence known through the medium.
The testers just observes it and doesn't really prove anything - so the real credit should got to the medium and above all, the spirits.

Mediums have passed various tests.

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by jambo372
The tester wouldn't have proven anything.

The spirits and medium would be the ones to PROVE it ...
The spirits make their presence known through the medium.
The testers just observes it and doesn't really prove anything - so the real credit should got to the medium and above all, the spirits.

Mediums have passed various tests.

Wrong.

The tester does not "just observe". The tester must VERIFY the phenomenon.

Mediums have "passed" various tests that were badly designed. Cold and hot readers could pass any tests that any medium has passed. No medium has ever passed tests designed by COMPETENT modern sceptics.

What about the cigars and the whisky and soda in Spiritualist Heaven? Was Mrs Leonard wrong?

Why did no medium solve Sir Oliver Lodge's test message?

[Zep]

Originally posted by jambo372
Mediums have passed various tests. What tests are these?

[jambo372]

They verify it ... so what.
They didn't contact beyond the grave.
Therefore the medium and spirits give the real proof and the tester is just a patsy.

From Mighty Thor's post I can clearly see other reasons a medium or any other type of psychic for that matter would conclude that there's no point in permitting themselves to be tested.

Whenever tests are carried out and the psychic passes them with flying colours, sceptics just accuse the investigators who set up the tests of being incapable although this is often not the case.

[jambo372]

Songstress
A few questions about your mediumship.

How long did you spend in your development circle before becoming an officially approved fully pledged spiritualist medium ?

Do you do healing as well as mediumship ?

What, roughly goes on in development circle ?

Can you train officially in developing your mediumship at the age of 18, what age are you allowed to start circle at ?

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by jambo372
They verify it ... so what.
They didn't contact beyond the grave.
Therefore the medium and spirits give the real proof and the tester is just a patsy.

From Mighty Thor's post I can clearly see other reasons a medium or any other type of psychic for that matter would conclude that there's no point in permitting themselves to be tested.

Whenever tests are carried out and the psychic passes them with flying colours, sceptics just accuse the investigators who set up the tests of being incapable although this is often not the case.

What tests have psychics passed with flying colours in recent times?

Was Mrs Leonard wrong in saying that there were cigars and whisky and soda in Spiritualists Heaven? (For the third time)

Have you read Lodge's book "Raymond"?

It is regarded by some spiritualists as a seminal work. Do you think the mediums gave Lodge accurate information about Raymond in the afterlife?

http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/books/lodge/raymond/contents.htm

[jambo372]

http://www.unknowncountry.com/diary/?id=98

I'm not dead and I'm not a medium (at least not yet I'm not) - I wouldn't know if there are cigars and whisky in heaven - I think they probably do have some and probably some malibu as well but I wouldn't know for certain.

I've never read the book.

[Azrael 5]

Originally posted by jambo372
http://www.unknowncountry.com/diary/?id=98

I'm not dead and I'm not a medium (at least not yet I'm not) - I wouldn't know if there are cigars and whisky in heaven - I think they probably do have some and probably some malibu as well but I wouldn't know for certain.

I've never read the book.

From jambo 372's link
Dr. Schwartz decided that, if there is life after death, the best place to look for evidence is among people who claim to be in contact with dead souls—in other words, mediums. He tested both famous and little-known mediums under conditions that made it impossible for them to cheat and found that most of them provided clear evidence of communication with the dead.
All this from a Whitley Streiber website!! Oh come on! You do know Schwartz test results were flawed dont you?Again citing links without bothering to check any facts.:(

[jambo372]

Prove it was a flaw.

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by jambo372
http://www.unknowncountry.com/diary/?id=98

I'm not dead and I'm not a medium (at least not yet I'm not) - I wouldn't know if there are cigars and whisky in heaven - I think they probably do have some and probably some malibu as well but I wouldn't know for certain.

I've never read the book.

Well, it is online at http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/books/lodge/raymond/contents.htm

and can be read in a night.

It is an embarrassingly naive account, filled with dancing Indian spirit guides, table tipping, and readings being tortured to fit any "fact" about Raymond. All the "evidential" material can be explained quite easily as fraud and deception on the part of the mediums.

I felt quite sorry for Sir Oliver, in a way. I think he really convinced himself of the reality of an afterlife, contrary to any supposed evidence. He was a wealthy man, and the mediums were deliberately conning him. There is no excuse for them. This was a conspiracy of rogues who perpetrated a blatant fraud on grieving parents. Indeed, I think Lodge must have had a mental breakdown at some point. The most cynical analysis is that he was in collusion with them -- he had books to sell and the SPR to promote.

Why don't mediums do table tipping nowadays?

Why do they no longer need "controls"?

Where do you think this heaven flowing with whisky and soda and Malibu and no doubt draught Tennants is?

Is it up in the sky?

If you don't know, why don't you ask your medium mentors?

[jambo372]

Mediums still use table tipping - it is no longer used in public during the services at spiritualist churches but is still employed at private seances.

Mediums still use controls. I have my own controls. Everyone has controls or guides - at least one of them.

I don't know where heaven is - not even the mediums know, hence the song Beautiful Isle Of Somewhere often sang at spiritualist sittings. It is a place currently beyond the reach of people in the material plane.

[Azrael 5]

Seriously,if mediums could really hear voices from the dead ,wouldnt they themselves go mad eventually? Continually having voices in your mind..how do they know what are dead people and what is imagination,or memories of someone talking.Or for that matter memories of a apirit talking!! If they can turn the "gift" on and off,how do they do that? Which of the five senses can you actually turn off? You cant turn off your imagination/memory....;)

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by jambo372
Mediums still use table tipping - it is no longer used in public during the services at spiritualist churches but is still employed at private seances.

Mediums still use controls. I have my own controls. Everyone has controls or guides - at least one of them.

I don't know where heaven is - not even the mediums know, hence the song Beautiful Isle Of Somewhere often sang at spiritualist sittings. It is a place currently beyond the reach of people in the material plane.

Thanks for answering candidly. I'm sure that songstress was arguing that seances no longer take place. You must know better than her. Fair enough.

What are "controls" like?
Do you hear their voices?
Do you see them?
Who are they?
What do they say?

I heard that spiritualist heaven is called Summerland.

[jambo372]

Five Senses ?
Mediumship uses an unknown 6th sense which can be controlled. Mediums are trained to filter out messages from the imagination and dangerous spirits.
Some mediums have went insane - I've had the pleaure of knowing some of them.

[The Mighty Thor]

As an aside, shouldn't you be swatting up for your Prelims?

[Azrael 5]

Originally posted by jambo372
Five Senses ?
Mediumship uses an unknown 6th sense which can be controlled. Mediums are trained to filter out messages from the imagination and dangerous spirits.
Some mediums have went insane - I've had the pleaure of knowing some of them.
Oh good,in that case you will be able to provide evidence.Newspaper reports,surely.Not everday evil spirits make someone go insane,is it?
Mediums are trained,are they? Sure.

[Ashles]

Some mediums have went insane - I've had the pleaure of knowing some of them.
Yes, either that or some insane people thought they could speak to dead people.

Hmm, which is more likely?

[Strokes chin thoughtfuly]

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by Ashles
Yes, either that or some insane people thought they could speak to dead people.

Hmm, which is more likely?

[Strokes chin thoughtfuly]

Off topic. Nice festive addition to your avatar, Ashles. Balls. Was that just for jambo?:D

[richardm]

Originally posted by jambo372
Mediumship uses an unknown 6th sense

If it's unknown how come you know about it?

[Azrael 5]

He doesnt,probably readit on a link somewhere.He'll provide it....give him time!:D

[jambo372]

THE MIGHTY THOR
When Songstress said we no longer have seances, I think she meant we no longer have traditional victorian style seances with materialisations, telekinesis, rappings, talking trumpets, self playing musical instruments, levitation, table tilting etc within the spiritualist church.

Controls are like ordinary people (or sometimes animals).
Some stay close to you for your whole life, others come in at times of need, some stay with you for a certain time period and leave.

The guides help look after you, help you make decisions, protect you from evil spirits etc. It's basically like having second guardian angel(s).

I can sometimes here their voices.
I see them occasionally.

Who are they ?
My personal ones ?
Here are a few I know about.

1) A deceased Rastafarian who died in a car crash by the name of Victor. Victor died in a car crash at a young age leaving behind a daughter and wife. He is a big fan of Bob Marley and sings to me sometimes. He is always cautious of car journeys. He talks at night sometimes and has been around quite a while.


2)A deceased old alcoholic tramp named Sam.He sleeps like many hobos with a hat covering his face. His voice sometimes comes through certain porous objects eg speakers, the wireless, telephone, head phones even the shower, I hear it within myself. He's been hanging around for a very long time. He drowned by falling facedown into a canal whilst drunk and doesn't like to talk about it.

3) A young woman who died during childbirth who was known in her time as big Bella. She doesn't talk much but tells me she was a great fighter. Her child also died and is now with her. She wouldn't want people to cry over her death - she'd rather they were happy. She worked in a shop and died in her early twenties.

4) A 5 year old girl named Catherine who died many years ago of pneumonia, long before her time. She is quite shy and like most doesn't like to talk about her death. She is there when you're ill and is good to cheer you up. She comes in and out of my life a lot.
She was around just before the reign of queen Victoria. She missed her friends and family a great deal but they were eventually reunited with her. She's been around for a very long time.

5) A Japanese Kamikaze pilot who always talks about the sacrifice he made. He tells long exaggerated stories up about it. He comes in rarely.

Ther are of course deceased relatives in addition to controls and guides and angels.

What they say is between me and them.
My prelims are ages away.

richardm
By unknown I mean how it works is uncertain.

Azrael 5
I never said their insanity was related to their mediumship. It was actually only one medium who I know personally. Mediums are trained - they already have power - the training just maximises it. It's like this ... you have muscles but go to the gym to get them stronger.

[Azrael 5]

Why would a Bob Marley liking spirit worry about car journeys-or anything come to think of it? They're dead! You really should go see a psychiatrist..your nuts!;)

[songstress]

I'm bowing out of the discussion. Not because I don't find it interesting, but because I can't see it going anywhere.

Patsy.

[Azrael 5]

Originally posted by songstress
I'm bowing out of the discussion. Not because I don't find it interesting, but because I can't see it going anywhere.

Patsy.
Another bites the dust.It could go far were you to take the challenge.The hours we could have discussing your real ability(according to you,therefore you'd pass)a world changing event.;)

[Mike D.]

Jambo,

You've posted some information about your spirit guides. Have these guides ever given you any detailed information that would enable you to potentially confirm that such people once lived on earth? Have you requested them to give you such information? It seems to me that it might be a good idea to not immediately take your experiences with the guides at face value, but instead try a more "scientific" approach to determine their nature.

Mike

[jambo372]

Why would they be scared of car journeys.
He died in a car crash.
Yes he has no reason to worry - but he still doesn't like the idea - flashbacks.
Some people are scared of spiders even knowing that they're harmless.

I AM PERFECTLY SANE AND IN MY RIGHT MIND !!!

:a2:
I wouldn't know how to find out if they were living - some died a long time ago and lived far away.

[Ashles]

If you could describe somebody who I definitely wouldn't want hanging around me as a sort of guardian angel or guide:
2)A deceased old alcoholic tramp named Sam.He sleeps like many hobos with a hat covering his face. His voice sometimes comes through certain porous objects eg speakers, the wireless, telephone, head phones even the shower, I hear it within myself. He's been hanging around for a very long time. He drowned by falling facedown into a canal whilst drunk and doesn't like to talk about it.
It would be him.

[Mike D.]

Jambo,

Even for persons who died a long time ago, sometimes there are existing records that could give information that would at least indicate whether or not some of the things that spirit guides say about themselves are plausible. Why could not big Bella, for instance, tell you what city she lived in, the years she lived there, what street she lived on, more detailed information about her family, the name of the shop she worked in etc.? Then you could determine if records existed that might confirm any of the information. For example, even if no records of Bella's existence were found, could there be records that mention a shop by that name in the town or city? Etc.

I would think that if spirit guides are interested in proving that life after death is real, that they would supply all the information they could to enable us to confirm that they are who they say they are.

I recall a couple of years ago going to a seance at a Spiritualist Church in which a spirit guide spoke through a trance medium. The guide claimed to be an ancient Egyptian teacher. I didn't have an opportunity to question the guide, but I felt like asking him to speak his ancient Egyptian language for us and to give us detailed information about life in ancient Egypt during his time there. And then take whatever information he provided (assuming he was able to provide any) and compare it to whatever historical records are available that document that time in Epypt's history.

Mike

[jambo372]

If I have bother with the spirits I could grass them up to a medium.:D

I could always try and get in contact with Bella and ask her about where she lived.

[Azrael 5]

Originally posted by jambo372
If I have bother with the spirits I could grass them up to a medium.:D

I could always try and get in contact with Bella and ask her about where she lived.
Yes please do.Come back with some hard evidence for a change.:p

[The Mighty Thor]

jambo's guides are interesting in their diversity.

It's kind of like psychic Multiple Personality Disorder.

It must make for a confusing life, having these folk turning up.

I read recently that some children are more prone to have "invisible friends" when young, and some keep them even into adulthood.

jambo

I always wonder what people like you mean when you say "I hear their voices".

1. Do the voices sound different from yours? Do they change tone, from male to female, accents, or even language? I mean, does the Kamikaze talk with a Japanede accent?

2. Where are the voices? Do they sound as if they are in your head (like your normal thoughts) or do they come from other places like TV sound is obviously coming from the TV?

3. Do you get sound without visions and vice versa?

4. Can you ask them questions?

You might not be crazy, but you sure are "weird" if what you say actually appears to happen. Do these phenomena upset you, or do you feel OK with them? I mean, would you prefer if they went away?

Ha ha! You caught me with the Prelims. I took a "cold reading" chance, since my niece is sitting her exams in Scotland right now.

If I had been lucky, and you asked how I knew, I was gonna say -- sixth sense. :)

[Mike D.]

Jambo,

At what point in your life did a spirit guide first make himself or herself known to you? Would you be willing to share the circumstances of your very first experience with a guide? Were you surprised when this happened? Did you immediately recognize the experience as being one of having received a communication from a spirit guide?

[Azrael 5]

If the spirit was once a Brownie as a child,would this make them a girl guide!:D :D

[jambo372]

The Kamikaze bomber talks with what I imagine a Japanese accent would sound like and is the only one to ever speak to me in a foreign language although he can talk english.

The voices come through as thoughts sometimes but other times as actual voices.

Sometimes I get a glimpse of them or just see them in my mind - sometimes you get vision without sound and vice versa otherwise both at the same time.

Can I ask questions ?
Sometimes, but they don't always answer, the reception can be bad.

Do the sounds come from other places eg the TV ?
You've been watching Poltergeist too often.:p
I sometimes think they speak through the wireless, speakers etc but only when they're switched off.

PS I do NOT have a multiple personality. :a2:

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by jambo372
The Kamikaze bomber talks with what I imagine a Japanese accent would sound like and is the only one to ever speak to me in a foreign language although he can talk english.

The voices come through as thoughts sometimes but other times as actual voices.

Sometimes I get a glimpse of them or just see them in my mind - sometimes you get vision without sound and vice versa otherwise both at the same time.

Can I ask questions ?
Sometimes, but they don't always answer, the reception can be bad.

Do the sounds come from other places eg the TV ?
You've been watching Poltergeist too often.:p
I sometimes think they speak through the wireless, speakers etc but only when they're switched off.

PS I do NOT have a multiple personality. :a2:

How do you know you don't have MPD or some other disorder? You sure have got SOMETHING going on.

[TheBoyPaj]

Originally posted by jambo372
PS I do NOT have a multiple personality. :a2:

You mean, you're stuck with this one? What a shame.

[Azrael 5]

Originally posted by The Mighty Thor
How do you know you don't have MPD or some other disorder? You sure have got SOMETHING going on.
Yes he has:he's delusional!;)

[jambo372]

No I do NOT !!!!!!!!!

[malbui]

I can't resist a brief derail...

Originally posted by The Mighty Thor
Do the voices sound different from yours? Do they change tone, from male to female, accents, or even language? I mean, does the Kamikaze talk with a Japanede accent?

Reading this, is anybody else reminded of the finest ever moment of Beavis and Butthead, where Beavis is talking about the voices in his head? They're all white guys who talk like him, apart from one who is Chinese.

Butthead: "So what does the Chinese guy say?"


Anyone who doesn't know the episode but wants to know the response should PM me - I don't want to offend the gentle reader by posting it here :wink:

[Ashles]

I don't think you do Jambo.

I think you're making it all up for attention.

Although if you can prove otherwise please do so.

For example get the Japanese pilot to give you some information about his commanding officer and their attack plans.
Or the type of plane he flew.
Or anything.

Otherwise lets just call him a spirit guide called Brown Bear and make him a native American and leave it at that.

[jambo372]

But he's not a native american he's a kamikaze pilot.:o

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by jambo372
But he's not a native american he's a kamikaze pilot.:o

What is his name?

[Ashles]

But he's not a native american he's a kamikaze pilot.
I meant that without any meaningful detail as a character you might just as well do what all the lazy readers do and pretend your guide is a Native American and leave it at that.

All this Kamikaze pilot nonsense is a bit pointless unless you have details to go along with it.

[jambo372]

But he's NOT a Native American, he's a former Kamikaze pilot named Yoshi.

It's pointless ?
If he says he was a Kamkaze bomber then that's what he is.
It's 'pointless' to deny this and say hes was a Native American.

[Ashles]

[sigh]

I'll try again from a different angle and see if you can at least find yourself within the general vicinity of the point this time.


Do you have any actual information about your Kamikaze pilot? His name, rank, mission history, commanding officer, where he lived etc.

Anything at all?

And how can he speak English?

[Azrael 5]

Could it be....http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v194/Paparazzi/pilot2.jpg:p

[The Mighty Thor]

Waiting for more info on jambo's spirit guides. . .

????????

[Ashles]

Hello Jambo?

Kamikaze pilot?

Any info?

[jambo372]

His name is Yoshi.
He was under commander Tieami.
My Japanese spelling is probably incorrect.

[Azrael 5]

Do we think Jambo has done a 1inChrist? He's being very quiet!;)

[Ashles]

Yoshi, hmmm, rings a bell, a commonly known Japanese name in the West, why, let's see if I can remember...

Ah yes, here he is (http://www.modellbaufan.de/images/Microsizers_Mariokart_HCAC053x.jpg)

Honestly try to come up with better made up names Jambo.



And if you have issues about your Japanese spelling just ask Yoshi - he obviously speaks English.

[Azrael 5]

Originally posted by Ashles
Yoshi, hmmm, rings a bell, a commonly known Japanese name in the West, why, let's see if I can remember...


And if you have issues about your Japanese spelling just ask Yoshi - he obviously speaks English.
Ask him what he thinks of Jerry Bruckheimer! Lol:D

[jambo372]

That's not him.
It doesn't matter if the name is common - most spirit guides will have common names because there are more people with common names - that's what makes it common.
I can't always get in touch with him.

[Ashles]

Most people have a surname as well. Can you get that?

Admittedly it works slightly differently with Japanese names, but I'm sure Yoshi will explain it to you Jambo.

Don't worry we can wait.

See if you can find out where he lived or grew up and how he got into the army.
And when he died and what he was doing.

[jambo372]

It's a privelige to die for the emperor you know.

[sophia8]

Originally posted by Mike D.

I recall a couple of years ago going to a seance at a Spiritualist Church in which a spirit guide spoke through a trance medium. The guide claimed to be an ancient Egyptian teacher. I didn't have an opportunity to question the guide, but I felt like asking him to speak his ancient Egyptian language for us and to give us detailed information about life in ancient Egypt during his time there. And then take whatever information he provided (assuming he was able to provide any) and compare it to whatever historical records are available that document that time in Epypt's history.

Mike
I was heavily into Spiritualism for a few years back in the '70s. It was that lack of verifiable detail, along with the dodgy historical stuff, that helped to convince me that there was really nothing in it.
For instance, I was attending at least two or three seances and services a week during that time, just about every other medium had a "Native American" spirit guide. But they were always generic "Indians" - none of them gave any details of their tribe or territory, or spoke in anything but near-perfect English. Very often, the medium would produce a beautifully-drawn picture of his guide; guess what, said Native American was always depicted wearing the exact same buckskin costume and feathered head-dress that "injuns" always wore in old-fashioned Westerns.
When the guide wasn't American Indian, he was usually Chinese. So we were treated to channelled talks given in stereoptypical "Chinee" accents that I thought had gone out with old Fu Man Chu movies. One such talk lasted for a full 30 minutes; the medium that was chanelling this "Chinese" gentleman had a very refined Home Counties accent (think old-fashioned BBC announcer). On this occasion, when she started channelling, we got the full Fu Man Chu accent and verbal tics: "Glate Dlagon Spilit, he say..." etc. But as the talk wound on, the accent very gradually morphed back into her own accent, until she was in full BBC announcer mode. That abruptly changed about three minutes from the end of her channelling - she must have suddenly realized what she sounded like, and gave us Fu Man Chu again for the rest of the talk.
What really got me disillusioned was when I was having a friendly chat with a medium. She told me excitedly about a recent seance when somebody had channelled an "ancient Chinese philosopher". Naturally, I wanted to know what this indubitably wise old man had said.
She:"I don't know, he was speaking in Chinese."
Me: "Oh, what language, then?"
She: "I told you - Chinese."
Me: "But there are a number of languages spoken in China - Mandarin, Pekinese and so on."
She, irritated: "I don't know about any of that - I told you, it was Chinese, and none of us know any Chinese."
Me: "Um.... so, how did you know he was Chinese?"
She, exploding: "BECAUSE HE SOUNDED CHINESE!! AND MY GUIDE SAID HE WAS CHINESE!!!"

I tell you, an angry medium is not a pretty sight.

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by Ashles
And when he died and what he was doing.
Excuse me?

You want to know what a kamikaze pilot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamikaze) was doing when he died?

You couldn't take a wild guess, could you?

[Ashles]

I don't know which of these last two posts is the funniest.

(Edited to add: the last 2 posts before Adequate -
Adequate I kind of meant what battle was he involved in and where was he - and by 'where was he' I mean where geographically was he, i.e. not "In a plane" or "In the sky" etc.
Honestly Adequate sometimes you really are the very limit. And very, very naughty. I sentence you to reading the last 50 of II's posts.)

But Sophia8 I have seen angry psychics too - not nice, not nice at all.
Definitely not very spiritual either.

At the holistic centre where I used to work (Ashles' equivalent of 'Doorin' the war...') we had a reader who had an Indian spirit guide.

10 points for the first correct guess as to the guide's name.

[Dr Adequate]

"Geronimo".

[Ashles]

Nope - you have to think spiritual i.e. it will probably involve an animal.

[jambo372]

Brown Bear

[Ashles]

10 points for jambo!

Although not, necessarily, that impressive as I mentioned the name to you further up this thread.

It made me particularly laugh in that programme on 'Mediums: Talking to the dead' as that was the only name the crap medium in that programme could come up with.
Nostalgically remember it here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870633871&highlight=brown+bear#post1870633871)

[Azrael 5]

Brown bear!! Lol.I know quite a bit about planes Jambo ask ol' Brown Bear what the number of his plane was? Ask him about the oath that all new pilots undertook? How many there were?

Look familiar?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v194/Paparazzi/untitled.bmp ;)

[jambo372]

Brown Bear isn't the kamikaze bomber - I was guessing the other medium's spirit guide.

[Azrael 5]

Originally posted by jambo372
Brown Bear isn't the kamikaze bomber - I was guessing the other medium's spirit guide.
Apologies.Ill let you get back to providing solid evidence from your spirit guide.:D

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by sophia8
I was heavily into Spiritualism for a few years back in the '70s. It was that lack of verifiable detail, along with the dodgy historical stuff, that helped to convince me that there was really nothing in it.
For instance, I was attending at least two or three seances and services a week during that time, just about every other medium had a "Native American" spirit guide. But they were always generic "Indians" - none of them gave any details of their tribe or territory, or spoke in anything but near-perfect English. Very often, the medium would produce a beautifully-drawn picture of his guide; guess what, said Native American was always depicted wearing the exact same buckskin costume and feathered head-dress that "injuns" always wore in old-fashioned Westerns.
When the guide wasn't American Indian, he was usually Chinese. So we were treated to channelled talks given in stereoptypical "Chinee" accents that I thought had gone out with old Fu Man Chu movies. One such talk lasted for a full 30 minutes; the medium that was chanelling this "Chinese" gentleman had a very refined Home Counties accent (think old-fashioned BBC announcer). On this occasion, when she started channelling, we got the full Fu Man Chu accent and verbal tics: "Glate Dlagon Spilit, he say..." etc. But as the talk wound on, the accent very gradually morphed back into her own accent, until she was in full BBC announcer mode. That abruptly changed about three minutes from the end of her channelling - she must have suddenly realized what she sounded like, and gave us Fu Man Chu again for the rest of the talk.
What really got me disillusioned was when I was having a friendly chat with a medium. She told me excitedly about a recent seance when somebody had channelled an "ancient Chinese philosopher". Naturally, I wanted to know what this indubitably wise old man had said.
She:"I don't know, he was speaking in Chinese."
Me: "Oh, what language, then?"
She: "I told you - Chinese."
Me: "But there are a number of languages spoken in China - Mandarin, Pekinese and so on."
She, irritated: "I don't know about any of that - I told you, it was Chinese, and none of us know any Chinese."
Me: "Um.... so, how did you know he was Chinese?"
She, exploding: "BECAUSE HE SOUNDED CHINESE!! AND MY GUIDE SAID HE WAS CHINESE!!!"

I tell you, an angry medium is not a pretty sight.

Since they are frauds, and since most of them KNOW they are frauds, mediums are vitriolic in defense of mediumship. That is what they've been told to do, to try to scare off skeptics. After all, to them, skeptics are "the enemy". They are no use to mediums. They will not be conned. Mediums only court those credulous enough to part with money or gifts. Anyone else is no good to them because they can't be used and abused. So, by using this tactic, they have nothing to lose. They know they are not going to convert an astute skeptic.

Mediums are vampires of the human spirit. They are parasites, and I cannot understand how anyone of average intelligence can be taken in by the childish tomfoolery you describe.

I'm reading "The Psychic Mafia" by Lamar Keene. Perhaps that's why I'm sounding a bit angry.

[jambo372]

Mediums are vampires of the human spirit -
A real sceptic shouldn't believe in spirit.

What did Sophia8 expect ? A medal. Those constant daft questions would be enough to drive anyone mad. I'm surprised the medium didn't start the tongue lashing sooner.

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by jambo372
Mediums are vampires of the human spirit -
A real sceptic shouldn't believe in spirit.

What did Sophia8 expect ? A medal. Those constant daft questions would be enough to drive anyone mad. I'm surprised the medium didn't start the tongue lashing sooner.

Not the same kind of spirit. :P

Spirit as in: The state of a person's emotions (especially with regard to pleasure or dejection).

[jambo372]

Ha Ha Ha
Tee Hee Hee
So mediums drink pleasure ?
I haven't known any to do that and I know a lot of them.:o

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by jambo372
Mediums are vampires of the human spirit -
A real sceptic shouldn't believe in spirit.

What did Sophia8 expect ? A medal. Those constant daft questions would be enough to drive anyone mad. I'm surprised the medium didn't start the tongue lashing sooner.

"A tongue lashing" -- really means the person giving it has lost the argument. Who would anyone pay heed to a tongue lashing from a fraud? Why would anyone respect someone who resorted to such abuse?

What are the poems jambo? Have you ever seen a poem sheet close enough to read it?

Can you figure out what might ACTUALLY be on those sheets?

[Ashles]

Ha Ha Ha
Tee Hee Hee
So mediums drink pleasure ?
I haven't known any to do that and I know a lot of them.
Jambo have you tried passing it around a bit more frequently, or pehaps rolling more tobacco in with it?

[jambo372]

Yes - I've saw plenty of poems.
What she said was hardly abuse.

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by jambo372
Ha Ha Ha
Tee Hee Hee
So mediums drink pleasure ?
I haven't known any to do that and I know a lot of them.:o

No. They feed off peoples emotions. My metaphor stands.

[jambo372]

Ashles
I don't know what you're implying - I haven't been anywhere near a joint for months.:(

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by jambo372
Yes - I've saw plenty of poems.
What she said was hardly abuse.

More like a childish temper tantrum.

[jambo372]

How can you eat emotions ?
I'll no where to get food if I'm stuck alone with someone - eat their emotions.
Can vegans eat emotions ?