Losing My Religion

[alfaniner]

This has been a long process to come about. From my first exposure to the religion, I went to church nearly every Sunday up until a few years ago. I went to Catholic school through the 7th grade, and for various reasons entered public school in 8th grade. I was amazed at the difference, and was pleased at being exposed to a lot of different “types� of kids, rather than the same homogenous group I’d spent the last 7 years with. This was my first exposure to seeing something really “different� in my 13 or so years of life so far.

My mother died in 1999 after a long illness (cancer) when I was about 40. During this time I had ample opportunity to pray and to see my family do the same. None of that worked, she still succumbed and died. No miracles here. Perhaps if there had been a magnificent recovery, I would continue to believe as I had before then.

Sometime in 2000, I was particularly down, and attended my regular Sunday church service, hoping to find something uplifting in the message being sent. The priest chose this week to detail some horrible story about a woman killing another to steal the other woman’s baby. The moral was “See what lengths people will go to to have a baby? Abortion is BAD!� Coming at this particular time (it was only a week after Easter or so), and the total illogic of this conclusion actually made me think of converting to another religion after many decades.

The defining factor was 9/11. I realized that these terrorists believed strongly enough in their God to kill themselves and several thousand people. The God I thought I knew should never have let that happen. Therefore, either their God was stronger (and I refused to believe that – there was only supposed to be ONE), or it was the case of “there is nothing there�.

Around this time I became aware of the phenomenon of John Edward – “medium� and “psychic�. I was fascinated by his performances, which were similar to several other psychics I’d seen on TV. I’ve always had an appreciation for the fantastic, but don’t believe in UFO’s, ghosts, or most of that paranormal phenomena. This guy was amazing though, and I usually agreed with the sitter, wondering how he “always got everything exactly right�. Something led me to investigate further, and I came across the James Randi Educational Foundation, and the JREF forum.

This board was highly influential in my learning about critical thinking. Over the course of several months, I learned about the techniques of cold reading, among other things. As I continued to watch John Edward, I realized this is exactly what he (along with most other psychics) was doing. Instead of “getting it exactly right�, I saw how he fished for information and twisted reponses around to make it seem like he had been right all along.

During this time, there was the revelation of the widespread sexual abuse by priests, and the subsequent cover-up. I was very distressed that in addition to having been fooled by a psychic, even my own religion was capable of deception. Concurrently, I also found out that there was widespread corruption in the national governing body of the taekwondo group I belong to. In both instances, there had been previously been rumors, but once the investigation and revelation had come about, even though it may have been apparent before, was now impossible to ignore. At this time I found it very difficult to put my faith or trust in anything. Certainly my previous beliefs had been shattered.

Improving my critical thinking has been a long road, but I am now comfortable with the world the way it really is, instead of being afraid of being punished by the magical man who lives in the sky, for an eternity, for possibly some minor offense. I no longer believe in life after death, Heaven or Hell, Purgatory or Limbo (those last two have seemed to been “erased� in the last few decades). I would like to believe that the body’s energy goes somewhere after death, even if it’s given back to the universe somehow.

I believe that a Jesus-like man very probably existed, and his ideas have been twisted and formed to fit many religions’ agendas. I don’t deny that there are many good concepts presented by him and in the bible, and most of the ten commandments are still sound knowledge to live by.

Does this leave me sad and depressed? Sometimes. But I now see religion as like a drug (if you’ve ever seen true fundies you know what I mean), and dangerous as an influence in politics. There is a new trend that if you don’t believe in “OUR� God, you are going to be in some big trouble. Sure, most people think it’s great, but only because the people of influence believe in the same God.

You might think – “Well, if you don’t believe in God or sin, what’s to keep you from stealing, murdering, etc.?� It’s because I’m still a good guy, and I have empathy for other people. This is not brought about by religion (although it may have had some influence earlier in my life).

What would make me believe? Oh, perhaps having God or his messenger actually appear, or seeing a true miracle that would be impossible to explain otherwise (even then it would be subject to my critical thinking – magicians do “impossible� things all the time).

I won’t denigrate others for believing – most of my family still does (and doesn’t even know my turnaround yet). But when I went to my goddaughter’s Confirmation, I just felt sad because the ritual reminded me of recruiting into the Hitler youth. “If we can get ‘em young…� It took me several years to see what was real. It would take something extraordinary to convince me now that something is there.

If God was so desperate for me to believe in Him, why would he ever allow me to change my mind after so many years? I see religion as like a drug now – sure I felt better when I had it, but eventually I have to return to reality.

I doubt there’s anything anyone could say that would convince me otherwise now.

[Cosmo]

Originally posted by alfaniner
I doubt there’s anything anyone could say that would convince me otherwise now.

How about...


BURN in the fiery pits of HELL!!!!!!


Nah, seriously, welcome to the real world. It's been waiting for you to come back. :D

[Nex]

Thanks for sharing your story, Alfaniner. Congratulations on having the courage to question, and the open mind to accept your answers. :)

[Kitty Chan]

alfaniner

Thanks for sharing, one thing to remember is we are all screwed up in this life and most are just trying. Thats what I think when I see all the bad things you describe.

As for miracles you cannot base faith on them because they can be faked as you say.

God does allow you to change/make up your mind cause Hes not going to force you. Maybe you were taught to never oppose God I was told that God wants to know your whole life and be a friend. So if Im mad at Him about something He hears about it just like anyone else.

Alot is made about the feelings of religion probably why you call it a drug. While there may be times of highs there is also lows just like life. Believing in God is the same why would it be different, its not a magic cure. When things go wrong you thrash and yell and say oh why me. But to borrow a line from Apollo Gentlemen we can bounce all around this room but we are still going to end up here.

There is a pratical reason God said in all things happy or sad give thanks. I find that when I do (grudgeonly) after a bit I feel better. Why because I get away from the problem then can see the solution better.

[KingMerv00]

Alfaniner, I'm happy for you. It might seem weird to be so separated from society, but in the end, you stand on the logical high ground. We may be out numbered but we aren't out classed.

Kitty Chan(as many religious people are forced to do) appeals to your emotions. Remember that the reality and emotion are completely separate. Heck, I wish that there were an afterlife in eternal bliss. Doesn't mean there is.

In the end, I think you will be more fulfilled as an atheist/agnostic.

[thatguywhojuggles]

Congratulations alphaniner!

[Kitty Chan]

Originally posted by KingMerv00
Kitty Chan(as many religious people are forced to do) appeals to your emotions. Remember that the reality and emotion are completely separate. Heck, I wish that there were an afterlife in eternal bliss. Doesn't mean there is.

You missread what I said, or expected me to say something Im not sure which.

Im saying that the emotions or "the drug" do not keep ones faith. When things are happy its easy to have faith its when they go wrong its harder to keep it. Its easy to love your significant other when the bills are paid and things are good. But how many break up over money, job loss, sickness. This is where the marriage vows come in. They are only saying that life will have good and bad in it and you are going to stick together no matter what.

[alfaniner]

This wasn't a belief I dropped on a whim.

The spouse analogy doesn't apply because that would be someone you could touch and interact with. There is also expected to be some mutual benefit with a spouse. If they are unfaithful or provide nothing in return, it's time to end the relationship.

[KingMerv00]

Originally posted by Kitty Chan
You missread what I said, or expected me to say something Im not sure which.

Im saying that the emotions or "the drug" do not keep ones faith. When things are happy its easy to have faith its when they go wrong its harder to keep it. Its easy to love your significant other when the bills are paid and things are good. But how many break up over money, job loss, sickness. This is where the marriage vows come in. They are only saying that life will have good and bad in it and you are going to stick together no matter what.

But that IS the drug, don't you see?

You have a place to turn when things are going badly. Humans need social interaction without fear of rejection. That's God.

Sure you can feel upset but most Christians I know wouldn't claim God is responsible for their hardships, therefore the spouse analogy is inaccurate. Christians justify suffering by saying that God has not sworn an oath to keep you free from pain like a spouse has.

In other words, you can love God during the bad times because you don't think he is responsible for them.

[Jellby]

Originally posted by alfaniner
The defining factor was 9/11.

That's at least one good consequence of that sad day, though I'd probably prefer to have some hundreds more fundies (both sides), and two more skyscrapers...

[Kitty Chan]

Originally posted by KingMerv00
But that IS the drug, don't you see?

You have a place to turn when things are going badly. Humans need social interaction without fear of rejection. That's God.

Sure you can feel upset but most Christians I know wouldn't claim God is responsible for their hardships, therefore the spouse analogy is inaccurate. Christians justify suffering by saying that God has not sworn an oath to keep you free from pain like a spouse has.

In other words, you can love God during the bad times because you don't think he is responsible for them.

Then I guess Gods a drug or more accurately a drug called HOPE.;)

Some here seem to say God is only about the happy times (its hard to keep everyone straight.) I understand what you say about a drug or hope in the low times. Thats a promise of God to be there.

As for the bad times, if I am honest and dont try to blame anybody including God and look at me. I will find I am responsible or if there was others them too. Its not a blind never allowing God to be wrong, I just dont find Him wrong.

For example; if one is mad that God hasnt done something they thought He should it works out better that it wasnt their way. Also, if one rejects a idea from God, they find it would have been better to run with it because it works out on many levels.

[Brown]

Alfaniner's discussion seems--to me, anyway--to distinguish between God and religion. Many people think that there is no distinction, but there is.

One can ask, "If there is such an entity as the Almighty, which organized religion accurately describes the Almighty's attributes and desires?"

After investigation and reflection, one can reasonably answer that question, "There is no reason to believe that any organized religion really knows the Almighty's attributes and desires. Many organized religions claim to have such knowledge, but there are rational and ethical reasons for concluding that not one of them actually has such knowledge."

Concluding that organized religion does not have the knowledge that it claims to have is a difficult conclusion to make. For one thing, a person may have been brought up with religious ideas as a child, and may have learned those ideas from trusted adults. For another thing, coming to such a conclusion includes a recognition that one is in a very small minority, as most other people find merit in organized religion. It takes a degree of character to be able to disagree with such as large majority.

Rejection of organized religion does not necessarily make one an atheist. Nor does rejection of organized religion necessarily make one an agnostic, or a deist, or a satanist or a God-hater. Many people are unwilling to acknowledge these simple facts, but they are the truth.

[Kitty Chan]

Originally posted by alfaniner
This wasn't a belief I dropped on a whim.

The spouse analogy doesn't apply because that would be someone you could touch and interact with. There is also expected to be some mutual benefit with a spouse. If they are unfaithful or provide nothing in return, it's time to end the relationship.

Seriously I would not think you dropped belief on a whim.

After talking to King Merv and doing some thinking about what you said I have to say, I have not found God unfaithful. I have drifted away and each time I come back He is still there. I have finally made the decision to stay.

(BTW I use the spouse analogy because Jesus uses the image of the church being the bride and Him the groom. ) Between a christian and God there is mutual benefit as should be with a couple. There may not be a physical touch with God but there is a spiritual one.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Jellby
That's at least one good consequence of that sad day, though I'd probably prefer to have some hundreds more fundies (both sides), and two more skyscrapers...

And I'd have prefered that they did knock down those towers with nobody in them, and built something that was less of an eyesore. But now look at the plans for the new towers! Looks like the Death Star from Return of the Jedi with that exposed endoskeleton on the top. Ugh. Two giant boxes were bad enough, but now we're going to have two giant excoriated boxes.

Anyway, that's the end of that rant, now here's an even bigger one:

When a lot of people saw 9-11, they thought "holy crap, if religion can make you do something that crazy, I don't want anything to do with it." As for me, I kind of lost it trying to talk sense into this extremely religious Catholic guy. Not that there's anything wrong with Catholics, but this guy in particular was totally nuts, arguing for the most contradictory dogmatic crap I had ever seen. And at first I thought it was just him, but he was looked up to by otherwise normal people, and I tried to tell them to ignore him because he's making them look bad, and they just ignored me. And then there were the Baptists or something on campus who went around trying to convert me, but they didn't know anything about what they were really saying! And the religious guys in my seminar kept trying to hijack every discussion into one big circle around God so nothing could be learned, and these two Baptists in my freshman science tutorial kept trying to turn everything into an attack on science, but the more I learned about it, the more I could see that they were wrong. I thought I was going crazy or something, because where did all these weird ideas come from? It wasn't from all the classical philosophy we were reading that year, those ideas made sense. I finally found out what was going on. There was a mentality these guys were immersed in, which was to be the nut. Whatever the nut says, applaud him, praise him for it, and do it. Don't try to question the nut, he's way smarter than you. If you're not nuts to begin with, find someone who is and imitate him. If we can all be nuts, then we'll be sane! I don't know who came up with it, but it sure was popular. And once you're raised that way, it's easy to think it's self evident, or that it's "right opinion" or something, without actually thinking about what you are doing. In fact, I realized a lot of my own thoughts about religion were kind of like that, so I just put them aside for when they'd be important again. And then I realized I didn't really need them after all. People kept telling me I'd die without belief, but here I was, not dying, not feeling suicidal or anything. Once you know about what you don't know, you start to really learn, and that kind of learning is what enriches your life. Plato was really on to something. I don't know if there is an afterlife, and chances are that if there is one, it's probably nothing like what the religions say about it. But I do know that some day I will die, and when I do, I want to die not just happy, but successful and fulfilled. And ultimately, that's the same thing religious people want, but they all get caught up in the mysticism and the carrot on the stick. Why they have to go out of their way and attack me for all these things I'm not is beyond me, telling me I'll go on a killing spree or something when it's the furthest thing from my mind, but I can forgive them. They're just doing what they were taught to do. But I can't forgive them for not listening when I say I'm not like that, or demanding that I prove that there is no God, or related nonsense like that. There is nothing that ticks me off more than really bad reasoning, and a refusal to correct such a mistake. Okay, maybe hijacking an airplane full of civillians and flying it into a building loaded with innocents ticks me off more, but I find that really bad reasoning is partially to blame.

[MLynn]

Originally posted by Jellby
That's at least one good consequence of that sad day, though I'd probably prefer to have some hundreds more fundies (both sides), and two more skyscrapers...
Like Alfaniner, I reassessed after 9/11 - the first plane hit our floors and I lost 295 colleagues. I did a huge re-think and am now much more moderate as a Xian. I will not and refuse to be a "fundie!"

[Kopji]

(Apologies - copied because alfanier linked this thread, looked interesting and I couldn't find it)

My 'deconversion', if that is a good term, seems much different to me now that it is at a fading distance.
There is a sense of quiet freedom and calmness about it.

I was the kind of believer who would gladly travel 90 miles one way to church if called to.

A minor illness of my wife turned into a longer hospital stay in which she almost died. We later found out that this was something that could come and go for many years. Even later, there was a serious concern that the kids had inherited the health problem too. (Less concern now).

All the 'benefits' of belief were brought to bear: There were prayers for healing and visits, there was even an instance where I thought I had been visited by an angel.

And suddenly... I just broke: felt nothing, not caring to live or die. It was as if a huge elaborate sand castle suddenly washed away by an unexpected wave. I could not sing hymns for the longest time, or even enter a church without being overcome with sadness. Doubtless my leaving the faith caused many friends and family great concern. The guilt I should have felt was sort of swept away in the unfeeling.

And so that was the 'emotional' part. I don't think I ever madly raged against God or anything. It was a realization that there was no God to rage at - things happen and we go on.
For a couple years I tried to reason my way into other churches and religions but it always seemed like I was trying to rebuild that sand castle. Despite my best efforts it would last a short while and then crumble. It was not a matter of choosing to believe or not. I finally let go of trying to find a new 'faith home'.

Fast forward several years... My family is doing better although there is always a chance that it can and does suddenly change for the worse. This is just our life and we make the most of it while we can.

The 'unfeeling' gradually changed into a kind of benign detachment about things. I once feared this 'detachment' as a kind of abyss. I now have a small patch of philosophy built around it (so hey, philosophy has some use after all).

[username]

Originally posted by alfaniner
This has been a long process to come about.

Thanks for sharing your deconversion story and welcome to the scary world of realizing that this is all there is and learning to accept that.

May the remainder of your days be spent realizing that praying for people and leaving things up to God is the same as doing nothing.

May you now become a force for real change in this world as you seek to do what you can today rather than leave it to the sky daddy to take care of according to his will.

May you not abandon the essence of the morality you have grown up with and have been taught to obey dogmatically, but rather recognize why those morals make good sense.

Welcome to the world of rationality and the ability to think without fear.

[Beerina]

Originally posted by KingMerv00
Kitty Chan(as many religious people are forced to do) appeals to your emotions. Remember that the reality and emotion are completely separate.

Keep in mind that, although you can be logically certain of something, that is completely different from the feeling of certitude you may have. That is an illogical emotion, like any other emotion.

The difference can be demonstrated by that old Mr. Science experiment where you pull a bowling ball on a string against your nose and let it go. You know logically it cannot swing back and hit you in the nose, but emotionally it's almost impossible to "know" this. To feel the certainty.

I think realizing that is a big step into the rational world.

[Kitty Chan]

Originally posted by Beerina
Keep in mind that, although you can be logically certain of something, that is completely different from the feeling of certitude you may have. That is an illogical emotion, like any other emotion.

The difference can be demonstrated by that old Mr. Science experiment where you pull a bowling ball on a string against your nose and let it go. You know logically it cannot swing back and hit you in the nose, but emotionally it's almost impossible to "know" this. To feel the certainty.

I think realizing that is a big step into the rational world.

Interesting experiment sure hope the string is good :)

I agree that one can be logically certain of something. This would be your mind deciding on something through the info it gets.

And while emotion can be illogical its generally when we let them run unchecked. Overly sad (depressed) for example. But emotions can help the mind decide on something if applied gently.

When it was said I was appealing to emotions that is only partly correct. More accurately I would have been appealing to mind, emotions and will.

The thing is its assumed that a person deciding to follow Christ chooses from mind and lets emotions take over and loses their will.

What actually happens is one chooses from mind (examines statements and events) and runs it against their emotions. Now, there is a third part that is not realized by the observer.

This is where a person may recognize they have a feeling of intuition or a gut feeling. This is not part of emotions, while it may be strong its never overwhelming like an emotion like depression.

This gut feeling, intuition, spiritual perception is the third part which is your spirit which is dorment until you through your will acknowlege God. When this is realized one will feel emotional about the whole matter and it will appear like it was total emotion. Thus the confusion because the observer does not know or see what is actually happening.

Through ones spirit one prays to God, its separate from emotions and the mind although not to dismiss either.

So, through the spirit one can be certain regarding God.

[Loki]

alfainer,

Nice tale. Welcome to the universe as it really is.

But when I went to my goddaughter’s Confirmation, I just felt sad because the ritual reminded me of recruiting into the Hitler youth. “If we can get ‘em young…�
My biggest problem with the organised christian faiths. Leave the damn kids alone! Let 'em be kids, and let 'em decide when they are ready if they want to find out more about the many and various concepts of god/gods.

[Riddick]

Originally posted by Loki
alfainer,

Nice tale. Welcome to the universe as it really is.


My biggest problem with the organised christian faiths. Leave the damn kids alone! Let 'em be kids, and let 'em decide when they are ready if they want to find out more about the many and various concepts of god/gods.
so, if you have no problem with them deciding to be christians on their own, why not have the parents introduce those concepts under the security of the family?

[Loki]

riddick,

so, if you have no problem with them deciding to be christians on their own, why not have the parents introduce those concepts under the security of the family?
Since this is probably the closed I've seen you come to a sensible question, I'll answer. Try reading what I wrote, and pay attention to the part that says "when they are ready". Does that help you with your reading comprehension? Does that answer your query?

[Riddick]

Originally posted by Loki
riddick,


Since this is probably the closed I've seen you come to a sensible question, I'll answer. Try reading what I wrote, and pay attention to the part that says "when they are ready". Does that help you with your reading comprehension? Does that answer your query?
it appears that i have offended you in some manner. my frankness often gets me in trouble.

i think kids are ready to learn from the get go.

[Kitty Chan]

Originally posted by Riddick
i think kids are ready to learn from the get go.

I agree, out of the mouths of babes comes some of the best wisdom around. Kids dont have our hang ups about things like God or whatever else.

Jesus also said we should look at the world with child like (not childish) child like eyes to better understand things.

:)

[Gulliamo]

Alf-
Congrats. 9/11 was an awakening for me as well.

Originally posted by c4ts
I find that really bad reasoning is partially to blame. Some would argue that bad reasoning is entirely to blame!

MLynn-
Cantor?

[KillerBob]

Originally posted by Kitty Chan
What actually happens is one chooses from mind (examines statements and events) and runs it against their emotions. Now, there is a third part that is not realized by the observer.

This is where a person may recognize they have a feeling of intuition or a gut feeling. This is not part of emotions, while it may be strong its never overwhelming like an emotion like depression.

This gut feeling, intuition, spiritual perception is the third part which is your spirit which is dorment until you through your will acknowlege God. When this is realized one will feel emotional about the whole matter and it will appear like it was total emotion. Thus the confusion because the observer does not know or see what is actually happening.

Through ones spirit one prays to God, its separate from emotions and the mind although not to dismiss either.

So, through the spirit one can be certain regarding God.

The only problem is that you can find descriptions of these "gut feelings" in followers of all religions throughout history.

So what can we draw from this? The most likely possibilities seem to be that either all these followers are correct and there are a whole lot of "true" gods out there

OR

these "gut feelings" are just more emotion in the form of internal validation. A deep seeded need to convince one's self that these feelings are something more than just emotion.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Gulliamo

Some would argue that bad reasoning is entirely to blame!


Yeah, that was an understatement.

[alfaniner]

I have the feeling that the recent tsunami may have a similar effect on many people that 9/11 had on my own thinking. I know it's been discussed at length elsewhere.

[Kitty Chan]

Originally posted by KillerBob
The only problem is that you can find descriptions of these "gut feelings" in followers of all religions throughout history.

So what can we draw from this? The most likely possibilities seem to be that either all these followers are correct and there are a whole lot of "true" gods out there

OR

these "gut feelings" are just more emotion in the form of internal validation. A deep seeded need to convince one's self that these feelings are something more than just emotion.

To start I am answering the perception that everyone who decides for God is emotional. Some may be but they dont last as you cant run on emotion. Actually God describes it as shallow roots. At some point a person deciding for God will examine everything to make a decision. One of these things is knowing in your spirit.

The average person would describe its as that gut feeling or intuition. It is knowing something without anyone telling you. That is your spirit and the way God speaks to us. It is not emotion, or intellect in fact those probably argue with ones spirit.

So validation is a good term but the feeling does not come from inside rather from outside to get past your emotions so you can think about it. You think, pray, study, talk to others there is alot of ways to confirm what you "heard" your spirit say. Those that do not go through the process are the ones that get into and cause trouble or worse.

This leads to your other point of people following their gut. If a person decides the claims of God are valid and chooses to persue Him. Then that person can just follow their gut but, then they are leaving out the emotion and intellect. One needs all three. When someone does follow just one then troubles are created and theres no shortage of examples. Bad reasoning! exactly.

Then if one looks at part of the bible or takes the bits they want and applies it to one of those three to validate their view it can make a volitile mix or just a stupid mistake. Since they sprinkled a bit of bible in there they then are entitled to blame God. :rolleyes: for their lack. Or whoever else like their parents, siblings, spouse, friends, govt, the dog just not their own bad reasoning.

[KillerBob]

Originally posted by Kitty Chan
To start I am answering the perception that everyone who decides for God is emotional. Some may be but they dont last as you cant run on emotion. Actually God describes it as shallow roots. At some point a person deciding for God will examine everything to make a decision. One of these things is knowing in your spirit.

The average person would describe its as that gut feeling or intuition. It is knowing something without anyone telling you. That is your spirit and the way God speaks to us. It is not emotion, or intellect in fact those probably argue with ones spirit.

So validation is a good term but the feeling does not come from inside rather from outside to get past your emotions so you can think about it. You think, pray, study, talk to others there is alot of ways to confirm what you "heard" your spirit say. Those that do not go through the process are the ones that get into and cause trouble or worse.

This leads to your other point of people following their gut. If a person decides the claims of God are valid and chooses to persue Him. Then that person can just follow their gut but, then they are leaving out the emotion and intellect. One needs all three. When someone does follow just one then troubles are created and theres no shortage of examples. Bad reasoning! exactly.

Then if one looks at part of the bible or takes the bits they want and applies it to one of those three to validate their view it can make a volitile mix or just a stupid mistake. Since they sprinkled a bit of bible in there they then are entitled to blame God. :rolleyes: for their lack. Or whoever else like their parents, siblings, spouse, friends, govt, the dog just not their own bad reasoning.

Obviously, this idea of it being your "spirit" guiding you rather than just emotion is purely conjecture. I could say that the "gut feelings" are caused by the overwhelming influence of your neighbor's garden gnomes, and the claim would be no more or less credible since there is no proof for either theory.

So it's the emotions and thoughts of the individual versus the guiding hand of that person's "spirit". Seems like a really good place to apply Occam's razor.

Backing up for a moment, you quoted my earlier post, but by your response it appears that you missed the point of it. What I'm saying is that no matter what the religion, you hear the claims of these same "gut feelings" by it's followers. Are they all right? Are there a whole lot of different gods that guide this "spirit"? Can I just pick any religion and I'll be right as long as I get a "gut feeling"?

The point is, throughout history most religious followers get this "feeling" of the influence of their chosen deity, be it the Christian God, Allah, the Jewish G*d, Ra, Zeus, Osirus, or whoever.

The fact that these "gut feelings" don't show any preference to a particular deity should point us toward the fact that it probably is just the emotions and thoughts of the believer.

[Loki]

What Bob just said!!!

The faithful claim "spirit" as a 'crucial feature' of their particular belief system, and the perceived existence of this therefore acts as as evidence for that belief system. But vitually all religions embrace this, and they are often cleary contradictory. So it can't be evidence for all of them. So why assume it's evidence for any of them?

And, just a final comment, it's possible to be "spiritual" and yet an atheist if you take the time to try and separate the issues, rather than use one as a prop for the other.

[Kitty Chan]

Originally posted by KillerBob
Obviously, this idea of it being your "spirit" guiding you rather than just emotion is purely conjecture. I could say that the "gut feelings" are caused by the overwhelming influence of your neighbor's garden gnomes, and the claim would be no more or less credible since there is no proof for either theory.

So it's the emotions and thoughts of the individual versus the guiding hand of that person's "spirit". Seems like a really good place to apply Occam's razor.

No Bob its not the persons spirit guiding them. Think of what I said how could ones spirit guide them? Thats contradicting what I just said. Please try to suspend preconcieved ideas and reread what I said, you blew by it.

Backing up for a moment, you quoted my earlier post, but by your response it appears that you missed the point of it. What I'm saying is that no matter what the religion, you hear the claims of these same "gut feelings" by it's followers. Are they all right? Are there a whole lot of different gods that guide this "spirit"? Can I just pick any religion and I'll be right as long as I get a "gut feeling"?

The point is, throughout history most religious followers get this "feeling" of the influence of their chosen deity, be it the Christian God, Allah, the Jewish G*d, Ra, Zeus, Osirus, or whoever.

The fact that these "gut feelings" don't show any preference to a particular deity should point us toward the fact that it probably is just the emotions and thoughts of the believer.

I didnt miss what you said I can only address so much at one time. First I would describe how this works then its easier to compare how other religions or whatever work because then there isnt jumping all over the place. Once again you say "I'll be all right if I get a gut feeling", no I did not say that.

Yes, other gods address us through our spirit thats the next thing, Im getting there. However to get there ya gotta start somewhere :)

[Kitty Chan]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Loki
The faithful claim "spirit" as a 'crucial feature' of their particular belief system, and the perceived existence of this therefore acts as as evidence for that belief system. But vitually all religions embrace this, and they are often cleary contradictory. So it can't be evidence for all of them. So why assume it's evidence for any of them? QUOTE]

Loki

An atheist spiritual? I guess if they want, thought they didnt like that kind of thing but then again Im not sure of your defination of spiritual that is another word that gets batted around.

Also, as for evidence I guess it could be but not definative I would think. Maybe something to think about.

Yes we all have a spirit, see again what I said to Bob if you wish.
In the very least if you guys let me explain, you will know one of the things that spurs a christian not to believe anything Slyvia has to say.

:)

[KillerBob]

Originally posted by Kitty Chan
No Bob its not the persons spirit guiding them. Think of what I said how could ones spirit guide them? Thats contradicting what I just said. Please try to suspend preconcieved ideas and reread what I said, you blew by it.

Sorry Kitty, but I didn't blow by anything:

The average person would describe its as that gut feeling or intuition. It is knowing something without anyone telling you. That is your spirit and the way God speaks to us. It is not emotion, or intellect in fact those probably argue with ones spirit.....

...So validation is a good term but the feeling does not come from inside rather from outside to get past your emotions so you can think about it. You think, pray, study, talk to others there is alot of ways to confirm what you "heard" your spirit say.

If it's the way someone "heard" God speak to them as an outside influence, why am I incorrect in the use of the word "guide"?

Since you mentioned Sylvia in your message to Loki, I'm guessing that you may be hung up on her meaning of the term. What I'm speaking of isn't a Browne-esque "spirit guide" but rather your definition of one's "spirit" as a guide.

Once again you say "I'll be all right if I get a gut feeling", no I did not say that.

Once again? That was the first time I said that. And I never claimed that you said it, but from what you've given us so far, it's one obvious possible conclusion. Feeling like you've applied thought, prayer, studies, and conversation is not exclusive to one religion, so what makes one "intuition" better than another?

The whole point of my comments in this thread is that when someone hedges toward a religion, they can find their validation if they want to, even if it's carried out in the form of internal argument. I'm still looking for anything that shows that "intuition" and "gut feelings" are more than just our own thought processes. What you've described may sound great to a lot of people, but it still has no more evidence than my garden gnome theory.


I'm not attacking you, Kitty, it's just that I grew up in a Southern Baptist church and this was one of the major issues that eventually led me away from belief in any dieties. Realizing that followers of other religions had these same fellings, compulsions, or what have you, made me realize that there was nothing to show that they were anything more than my own attempts at validating my beliefs, even if on a subconscious level.

[Kitty Chan]

Originally posted by KillerBob
If it's the way someone "heard" God speak to them as an outside influence, why am I incorrect in the use of the word "guide"?

Sorry maybe I am sensitive :o to that word it causes confusion. You are right if God spoke you would "hear" it through your spirit. A confirmation about something you have been thinking of for example.

The guide is more emptying your mind and having this spiritual journey guided by whatever telling you what to do.

The whole point of my comments in this thread is that when someone hedges toward a religion, they can find their validation if they want to, even if it's carried out in the form of internal argument. I'm still looking for anything that shows that "intuition" and "gut feelings" are more than just our own thought processes. What you've described may sound great to a lot of people, but it still has no more evidence than my garden gnome theory.

Lets just call it intuition for sake of discussion if thats ok. Its not part of our mind process or our emotions thats what Im saying. If I have a strong intuition about something (I have been praying about) and I follow it, its not been wrong. In fact if I argue and say no then I end up wrong.

Not emotion, or something I have considered through just a thought that comes to me. Maybe Im smarter than I think but when Im thinking a problem through the thought just does not come the same way.

I'm not attacking you, Kitty, it's just that I grew up in a Southern Baptist church and this was one of the major issues that eventually led me away from belief in any dieties. Realizing that followers of other religions had these same fellings, compulsions, or what have you, made me realize that there was nothing to show that they were anything more than my own attempts at validating my beliefs, even if on a subconscious level.

Im sorry if Im getting tense I have a friend that follows spirit guides and I wish you could see what they do to her.

Dont forget that of course different religions will still have similar traits (for lack of a better word) But not all are the same.

Bikers have similar traits but not all are the same. Some like organized crime and some dont. Just depends which end result you want to be part of.

So other bikers have the same feelings they love to ride but we certainly dont go about things in the same way. And if you really look at it riding has different meanings to each person.

This may be a lousy example but Im trying. :)

[Harlequin]

Originally posted by Kitty Chan
I agree, out of the mouths of babes comes some of the best wisdom around. Kids dont have our hang ups about things like God or whatever else.

Jesus also said we should look at the world with child like (not childish) child like eyes to better understand things.

:)

Originally posted by Riddick
i think kids are ready to learn from the get go.

Does either of you actually have kids? This is disturbing. :(

The problem is that kids are desperate to learn from the get go. It means they learn everything, even things that are wrong. Abused kids learn to abuse their own kids when they grow up. Radical white-supremacist kids learn to spew hatred. "Born again" parents teach their kids to be just as self-righteous and blind.

Fortunately, kids also can learn to be caring, considerate, and polite. The "wisdom of babes" is nothing more than sincere ignorance.

Kitty Chan, in my translation of the bible, Jesus actually did say "childish". Yours is wrong.:p

[alfaniner]

I teach a lot of kids. I am teaching them how to fend for themselves. None of this religious BS is going to help them if some non-religious (or very stongly religious!) person is going to try to take them for (whatever purposes)...

No religious rightousness is a match for a good solid groin kick or a knee break if a molester is trying to accost them. I have a few kids that could really handle themselves in a certain situation. I didn't teach them through some "righteous" revelation. I taught them that "This causes pain, and may protect you". It's the "nice" kids I have trouble getting through to.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Harlequin
Kitty Chan, in my translation of the bible, Jesus actually did say "childish". Yours is wrong.:p 1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. ~ Matthew 18:1-4 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=18&version=9)

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Loki
alfainer,

Nice tale. Welcome to the universe as it really is.

My biggest problem with the organised christian faiths. Leave the damn kids alone! Let 'em be kids, and let 'em decide when they are ready if they want to find out more about the many and various concepts of god/gods. Originally posted by Riddick
so, if you have no problem with them deciding to be christians on their own, why not have the parents introduce those concepts under the security of the family?Originally posted by Loki
Since this is probably the closed I've seen you come to a sensible question, I'll answer. Try reading what I wrote, and pay attention to the part that says "when they are ready". Does that help you with your reading comprehension? Does that answer your query?But why have kids in the first place? Are we in fact not asking for the impossible (or, next to it) for parents not to pass onto their children which was passed onto them? Wouldn't it also be wrong to take the responsibility of rearing the children away from the parents?

[Mephisto]

. . . and a whole new world of spiritual thought.

Congratulation on losing your religion. I was raised in a strict (and abusive) Catholic household, but then I grew up.

I still remember the day I began questioning everything. I was about nine years old when my mother took me off to the side (it was near Christmas) and explained that Santa Clause didn't exist. Heartbroken that my favorite pseudo-deity was a fabrication, I asked, "What about the Easter Bunny?" Again, I was disappointed. I ran down the list of mythological childhood friends and found that none of them were real. Finally, I asked, "What about Jesus?"

"Oh no, he's for real," said my mother in shock at my question.

Since that time, I've made it a point to combine a child's curiousity with adult cynicism and come to the realization that religion and spirituality are two different things. Of course, I look for the spiritual in the things I can see, touch, hear, smell or experience such as a sunset, the tranquil flow of a river under a full moon, the laughter of a child, etc.

I've had many experiences similar to yours (including the disenchantment with martial arts organizations) and have concluded that, if there is a God, he can be found everywhere except in a holy book or a church.

Mephisto

[Libertarian]

This is one of my favorite atheist quotes. My own journey started about the age of 18 or 20 I guess, when I realized it was kind of strange that God was a man and sent a son. Very paternalistic, and convenient, I thought. And exactly what society would have come up with 2000 yrs ago. But that idea was the initial hole in the dike. I won't bore you with the steps I experienced, but suffice it to say that it was a gradual process that took years. It's as if I breathed a bit easier as each layer of the onion was discarded. This is a bit different, apparently, than the unhappiness that Russell experienced.

Throughout the long period of religious doubt, I had been rendered very unhappy by the gradual loss of belief, but when the process was completed, I found to my surprise that I was quite glad to be done with the whole subject."
[Bertrand Russell, Autobiography, chap. 2]

[alfaniner]

Couldn't find this thread before, but as a regular Forum member I think I'm entitled to bump one thread for posterity! I was hoping those whose posts were lost last week might want to repost.

[rharbers]

[QUOTE=Mephisto;1018320
Of course, I look for the spiritual in the things I can see, touch, hear, smell or experience such as a sunset, the tranquil flow of a river under a full moon, the laughter of a child, etc.
Mephisto[/QUOTE]

Pagan! Just kidding! By the way, what is spirituality anyway? I've never been able to figure that one out.

[Z]

Spirituality is that thing that makes you stop, breathe deeply, and inwardly go, "whoa, man... that's cool".

Like the first time I saw Christy Canyon in a movie...

[rharbers]

Spirituality is that thing that makes you stop, breathe deeply, and inwardly go, "whoa, man... that's cool".

Like the first time I saw Christy Canyon in a movie...

I thought that is reality.