Genetics and philosophy: Is there any point in discussing philosophy or religion?

[jay gw]

Simply put, if one's political and philosophical views are based on genetics, which the evidence suggests, strongly - is there any real point in discussing politics with anyone?

How many people do you know that defined themselves as definitely liberal/conservative/whichever and then switched their politics? How many religious people do you know that turned atheist? How many atheists do you know "got Jesus"?

I'm not talking about growing up in a religious or liberal family and then moving out and voting differently. Not the issue.

[drkitten]

Originally posted by jay gw
Simply put, if one's political and philosophical views are based on genetics, which the evidence suggests, strongly - is there any real point in discussing politics with anyone?



I'm not familiar with the evidence as you describe it. Could you provide some more details, please?

[jay gw]

Some attitudes (e.g., traditionalism) show high heritability (about .60)

http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/0070366055/student_view0/chapter4/chapter_outline.html

Matt Ridley, author of bestseller Genome
"Nature via Nurture: Genes, Experience and What Makes Us Human"

In a recent study [psychologist Thomas] Bouchard measured how [religiously] fundamentalist individuals are by giving them questionnaires about their beliefs. The correlation between the resulting scores for identical twins reared apart is 62 percent; for fraternal twins reared apart it is just 2 percent. Bourchard repeats the exercise with a different questionnaire designed to elicit a broader measure of religiosity and still gets a strong result: 58 percent [for identical twins reared apart] vs 27 percent [for fraternal twins reared apart].

Political opinions:

[Bouchard] repeats the exercise with a different questionnaire designed to discover what he calls "right-wing attitudes."

Again there is a high correlation in identical twins reared apart (69 percent) and no correlation at all in fraternal twins reared apart.

He gives the twins a different questionnaire that simply lists single phrases and asks for approval or disapproval: immigrants, death penalty, X-rated movies, etc. Those who reply no to immigrants, yes to the death penalty, and so on are judged more "right-wing."

The identical [twins reared] apart correlation is 62 percent, the fraternal [twins reared] apart correlation is only 21 percent. Similar huge differences [in the similarity between the political opinions of identical twins and fraternal twins reared apart] emerge from similar large studies in Australia.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060006781/102-0564956-9890505?v=glance

[crimresearch]

Originally posted by jay gw
Simply put, if one's political and philosophical views are based on genetics, which the evidence suggests, strongly - is there any real point in discussing politics with anyone?

How many people do you know that defined themselves as definitely liberal/conservative/whichever and then switched their politics? How many religious people do you know that turned atheist? How many atheists do you know "got Jesus"?

I'm not talking about growing up in a religious or liberal family and then moving out and voting differently. Not the issue.

Views specifically based on genetics in the sense that say, albinism is based on genetics? All nature, no nurture?

I'm not aware of research in that are, please share with us.

And as far as being a liberal in one's youth, and becoming a conservative over time, didn't Churchill address that?

[jay gw]

Views specifically based on genetics in the sense that say, albinism is based on genetics? I'm not aware of research in that are, please share with us.

1- yes
2- I already did

[crimresearch]

I wondered if you might be talking about Bouchard.

Perhaps you would like to address that 60 percent similarity in light of the 80 percent correlation for other traits?

Why the drop in fundamentalist religion?

"These statistics have shown that on average, identical twins tend to be around 80 percent the same in everything from stature to health to IQ to political views."

"It must be said, however, that the meanings of such discoveries shed their precision as they travel from the scientific literature to the popular culture. Genes don't really make homosexuals or violent kids or depressed adults, and no reputable scientist would claim that they do.
Genes make proteins that contribute to chemical pathways that play a role in complex neurological and existential events. But that's a long story, so spare us the details. Something inside us -- a "fatalism" gene, perhaps? -- makes us want to believe that the genetic blueprint holds the secrets of who we are."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/twins/twins2.htm

[Marquis de Carabas]

Originally posted by jay gw
Simply put, if one's political and philosophical views are based on genetics, which the evidence suggests, strongly - is there any real point in discussing politics with anyone?
Perhaps people's propensity for discussing politics (or religion or philosophy) is also heritable.

How many people do you know that defined themselves as definitely liberal/conservative/whichever and then switched their politics? How many religious people do you know that turned atheist? How many atheists do you know "got Jesus"?
I know plenty on all counts. Perhaps you need to meet more people.

[jay gw]

Genes don't really make homosexuals or violent kids or depressed adults, and no reputable scientist would claim that they do.

How do you know how everyone gets their characteristics?

[crimresearch]

Originally posted by jay gw
How do you know how everyone gets their characteristics?

Uhhmm...I don't know how to break this to you, but people don't suddenly get up one day and decide to not be an albino anymore...

Your implication to the contrary notwithstanding, they DO change their specific behaviors and beliefs.

There is every reason to believe that such changes are a product of the interaction between their environment and their genetic makeup..its called life, in some circles.

[Z]

Originally posted by jay gw
Simply put, if one's political and philosophical views are based on genetics, which the evidence suggests, strongly - is there any real point in discussing politics with anyone?

How many people do you know that defined themselves as definitely liberal/conservative/whichever and then switched their politics? How many religious people do you know that turned atheist? How many atheists do you know "got Jesus"?

I'm not talking about growing up in a religious or liberal family and then moving out and voting differently. Not the issue.

I'd have to say that genetics is not the sole influence on political and philosophical views. I, for one, used to be a strongly conservative Christian who believed in the sanctity of heterosexuality, Ronald Reagan, the absolute right of our government, and the infallability of the Bible. In the last 15 years, all that has changed - and I certainly don't think my genetics has changed to match!

I've seen dozens of 'religious' people lose their faith in God, but admittedly only a handful of atheists who 'god Jesus'. (They usually just wipe it off and keep going... :D )

Genetics really isn't the be-all and end-all controlling factor in anyone's life, but it does predispose people to one manner of thinking or another. So does environment, society, family, etc. To take any one of these influencing factors singularly is to misinterpret the entire picture.

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by jay gw
How many people do you know that defined themselves as definitely liberal/conservative/whichever and then switched their politics? How many religious people do you know that turned atheist? How many atheists do you know "got Jesus"?
Apparently quite a lot of people round here have changed their minds. A self-selecting sample, though.

Poll: Are You A Sceptic Who Used To Believe Weird Things? (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45662&highlight=Sceptic+Who+Used+To+Believe+Weird+Things )

Zaayrdragon, if you didn't post your story on here, I'm still interested. I'm particularly interested to know how people stop believing in weird things.

Anyone interested in deconversion should have a look at these Deconversion Stories (http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml8317.htm)

Again, self-selecting. It's still a heckuvalot of anecdotes.

[Z]

I might post it there - but I'm more of a Semi-Sceptic who still Believes in a lot of Weird Things and doesn't understand Why nor cares to Find Out... :D