My adventures in the holy land.

[KingMerv00]

No not Israel. I joined a Christian message board.

I only participate in a single thread so far: http://forums.christianity.com/html/P1258970/?sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view _collapsed;;page=unread#unread

I post this thread here because I want to show you how their replys have progressed. The opening salvos were the usual (the watchmaker etc.).

I am completely astonished on how quickly these seemingly intelligent people abandoned logic in favor of emotional appeals. They all claim to "just know" and "you will too if you try". God seems to hate logic.

Take a look and feel free to critque my arguments.

Also, I ask that not everyone here joins the board. I don't want it to turn into a forum war. Thanks.

[Marquis de Carabas]

What if we're lapsed members of that board? Can we reignite our torches and storm the beaches? (...said the king of the mixed metaphor...)

[Skeptical Greg]

From one of the replys:
Repeatedly, comprehensive archaeological fieldwork and careful biblical interpretation affirm the reliability of the Bible. For example, recent archaeological finds have corroborated biblical details surronding the trial that led to the fatal torment of Jesus Christ - including Pontius Pilate, who ordered Christ's crucifixion, as well as Caiaphas, the high priest who presided over the religious trials of Christ.

Is there a Pontius Pilate diary we haven't heard about?

I suspect " careful biblical interpretation " is the key phrase here..

Otherwise, it falls apart very quickly..

[Yaotl]

And again, I'm saddened adults think this way. Some of those people are simply saying it's true because it's just true.

[KingMerv00]

Have I made any glaring locial errors?

Don't list type-o's and grammar issues. There is limited bandwidth.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by KingMerv00
Have I made any glaring locial errors?

Don't list type-o's and grammar issues. There is limited bandwidth.

I think you are doing real well. However, I believe any logical errors you make will go unnoticed..

[KingMerv00]

Originally posted by Diogenes
I believe any logical errors you make will go unnoticed.

Why do you think I asked THIS forum?

[plindboe]

Have had some discussions there, about free will, abortion & homosexuality(A thread that got locked because they didn't want any threads about homosexuality). I also spent time on the science board, before they closed it, their excuse being that it had an anti-christian feel to it. You're not allowed to link to talkorigins either, because that is deemed anti-christian as well.

[Cosmo]

I've also registered there, with the same name as I have here.

Should be interesting. :D

[KingMerv00]

Originally posted by Cosmo
I've also registered there, with the same name as I have here.

Should be interesting. :D

Grab your wading boots and shovel.

Don't trip over the wreckage of the watchmaker argument.

Oh yea pick up some nails and a hammer if you pass by the store, I think GPickypick is fixing to crucify himself.

[KingMerv00]

In their sole evolution thread, here is one of the rules.

"Do not make statements either by posts or posting URLs to other Websites which advocate activities, beliefs or teachings contrary to those of Christianity as articulated by the historic creeds, as understood by Evangelicalism, and as interpreted by ChristianBBS.com/Christianity.com its sole discretion."

Wow.....just wow.

Fortunately, I think some level headed Catholic's jumped in and convinced them otherwise.

[Cosmo]

I spotted this gem in a thread on that board:

I have a question for anyone who can pray and answer me. I got married in sin. My husband was also a sinner. We have been saved now for seven years and have three children. This is his second marriage, my first. Should I be required to end this marriage and what about my babies. I need some guidance as I was raised in the church and not to have more than one husband.I have been praying about this about a year because up until then I had no problem with it. I need to know what gods will is for me and my marriage. I refuse to let saten fool me. Do you think it is his will for me to take my kids away from there father and if so why did he allow them to be put in this if it is wrong?

Apparently she is wholly incapable of thinking even for a second about the lives of her husband and her children, and the horrific effect it would have on them - and all because of her inane religion?

[KingMerv00]

Here is someones sig on the message boards.

"{What's missing in CH RCH?} "

Here is my grammatically correct answer: U is.

Ahh...English is fun.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by KingMerv00
Here is someones sig on the message boards.

"{What's missing in CH RCH?} "

Here is my grammatically correct answer: U is.

Ahh...English is fun. Not only that, but the P is missing as well....

[c4ts]

Originally posted by KingMerv00
Here is someones sig on the message boards.

"{What's missing in CH RCH?} "

Here is my grammatically correct answer: U is.

Ahh...English is fun.

U is whack, bro.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Upchurch
Not only that, but the P is missing as well....

"Upchrch?"

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by c4ts
"Upchrch?" Okay, fine: All u's are missing with p.



(don't say that aloud, especially if you are from Brooklyn)

[Elind]

Originally posted by KingMerv00
No not Israel. I joined a Christian message board.

I only participate in a single thread so far: http://forums.christianity.com/html/P1258970/?sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view _collapsed;;page=unread#unread

I post this thread here because I want to show you how their replys have progressed. The opening salvos were the usual (the watchmaker etc.).

I am completely astonished on how quickly these seemingly intelligent people abandoned logic in favor of emotional appeals. They all claim to "just know" and "you will too if you try". God seems to hate logic.

Take a look and feel free to critque my arguments.

Also, I ask that not everyone here joins the board. I don't want it to turn into a forum war. Thanks.

You have some stamina and self control, that's for sure. I did speed through a lot of that and was struck by the sincerity and logical illogic of your debaters. Seemed like a lot nicer people, mostly, than the preachers I sometimes hear on TV. I wonder if they are from the same flock.

Certainly not the same stock that 1inChrist evolved from.

Anyway, my advice is to leave them in peace unless they stumble in here. Separation of religion and logic and all that. (Atheist principles)

[KingMerv00]

Originally posted by Elind
You have some stamina and self control, that's for sure. I did speed through a lot of that and was struck by the sincerity and logical illogic of your debaters. Seemed like a lot nicer people, mostly, than the preachers I sometimes hear on TV. I wonder if they are from the same flock.

Certainly not the same stock that 1inChrist evolved from.

Anyway, my advice is to leave them in peace unless they stumble in here. Separation of religion and logic and all that. (Atheist principles)

1inChrist is from a flock of trolls and is absent as of late.

I hear if you you say his name three times in front of the mirror, he will appear and bash you over the head with a overexaggerated version of Christianity.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Diogenes

From one of the replys:

Is there a Pontius Pilate diary we haven't heard about?

I suspect " careful biblical interpretation " is the key phrase here..

Otherwise, it falls apart very quickly.. Actually, some of it's pretty good reading, and maybe they're just afraid someone's going to take their story away from them?

[KingMerv00]

Here is something from a thread entitled "Living a Life of fear?"

"Laiana, first I would like to say is that you have to realize that no one has the right to go to heaven. God could have chosen to save nobody, but He didnt. That is amazing right there. So we cannot come to God and bring fairness to Him, "God it is not fair for you to not save everybody, God it is not fair for you to, etc.". Because on a fairness scale, it would be perfectly fair for God to send us all straight to hell, but He hasnt."

This upsets me. It truly does.

Why would people who believe in an abitrary God like this continue to worship him?

[KingMerv00]

Wow the fun keeps coming from this forum.

Here is a post of mine (the part between the lines is a quote from a previous post):

"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is easy to prove when something DOES exist. It is impossible to know when something doesn't exist, because it requires omniscience and/or omnipresence.

I don't suppose you have either, do you? :)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is always one of my favorite agruments that people make against agnostics.

I'll get to work on disproving the Christian God.

You get to work on disproving the thousands of other gods. While you are at it disprove that the is a Barbie doll orbiting Vega.

Sarcasm aside, the onus lays on the person making the positive claim. "



Ok that's the end of my post.

Later I received this in my PM box from an administrator:


"Merve, I am going to give you the opportunity to edit this post. You said that you were going to prove there is no God. You are in danger of violating our TOS 17. Please read it before you go into an area that can cause trouble for you. Please keep in mind that you are at a Christian site and we expect you and everyone else to respect that. It is not out of fear that I send this pm to you. You can no more prove the God we worship does not exist anymore than I can prove without a doubt that He does. Before you go there, be very careful of how you post. I am only trying to help you here. Read. "


Rule TOS 17? Here it is:


"Do not make statements either by posts or posting URLs to other Websites which advocate activities, beliefs or teachings contrary to those of Christianity as articulated by the historic creeds, as understood by Evangelicalism, and as interpreted by ChristianBBS.com/Christianity.com its sole discretion."


Allow me to translate:


LALALALALALALA! I'M NOT LISTENING! LALALALALALA!

I guess I'm on my way to being banned. It's only my 3rd day there.

[Mr Clingford]

Originally posted by KingMerv00
Wow the fun keeps coming from this forum.

Admin posts:
You can no more prove the God we worship does not exist anymore than I can prove without a doubt that He does. A reasonable point. ButOriginally posted by KingMerv00
Rule TOS 17? Here it is:


"Do not make statements either by posts or posting URLs to other Websites which advocate activities, beliefs or teachings contrary to those of Christianity as articulated by the historic creeds, as understood by Evangelicalism, and as interpreted by ChristianBBS.com/Christianity.com its sole discretion."
[/B] does mean we can ban you if we feel like it!

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by KingMerv00

Here is something from a thread entitled "Living a Life of fear?"

"Laiana, first I would like to say is that you have to realize that no one has the right to go to heaven. God could have chosen to save nobody, but He didnt. That is amazing right there. So we cannot come to God and bring fairness to Him, "God it is not fair for you to not save everybody, God it is not fair for you to, etc.". Because on a fairness scale, it would be perfectly fair for God to send us all straight to hell, but He hasnt."

This upsets me. It truly does.

Why would people who believe in an abitrary God like this continue to worship him? Yet as I understand it, The Lord Casts No One Into Hell (http://swedenborg.newearth.org/hh/hh57.html) ...

[KingMerv00]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Yet as I understand it, The Lord Casts No One Into Hell (http://swedenborg.newearth.org/hh/hh57.html) ...

I have not clicked on the link yet but I would like to make a psychic prediction. It somehow involves me casting MYSELF into hell.

Let's see if I am right.

Edit: HAHA! Tell Randi I would like my $1,000,000 in coupons for Campbell's Chunky Soup (man i love that stuff).

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by KingMerv00

Edit: HAHA! Tell Randi I would like my $1,000,000 in coupons for Campbell's Chunky Soup (man i love that stuff). Too much salt ...

[Elind]

Originally posted by KingMerv00
Here is something from a thread entitled "Living a Life of fear?"

"Laiana, first I would like to say is that you have to realize that no one has the right to go to heaven. God could have chosen to save nobody, but He didnt. That is amazing right there. So we cannot come to God and bring fairness to Him, "God it is not fair for you to not save everybody, God it is not fair for you to, etc.". Because on a fairness scale, it would be perfectly fair for God to send us all straight to hell, but He hasnt."

This upsets me. It truly does.

Why would people who believe in an abitrary God like this continue to worship him?


Why do some people like to be chained to a wall and whipped?

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by KingMerv00
Here is something from a thread entitled "Living a Life of fear?"

"Laiana, first I would like to say is that you have to realize that no one has the right to go to heaven. God could have chosen to save nobody, but He didnt. That is amazing right there. So we cannot come to God and bring fairness to Him, "God it is not fair for you to not save everybody, God it is not fair for you to, etc.". Because on a fairness scale, it would be perfectly fair for God to send us all straight to hell, but He hasnt."

This upsets me. It truly does.

Why would people who believe in an abitrary God like this continue to worship him?
Because it's the only way to avoid being cast into hell, dummy. If you believed that he'd torture you for ever if you didn't cringe and grovel, I think we'd see a little grovelling.

[KingMerv00]

Originally posted by Elind
Why do some people like to be chained to a wall and whipped?

Wait a sec. There are people who DON'T like to be chained to walls and whipped?

Freaks.

[KingMerv00]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Too much salt ...

No such thing.

By the way, you don't ACTUALLY want me to explain why your link is irrelevent do you? I'm sure know my answer.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by KingMerv00

No such thing.I've eaten enough of that stuff myself, and after the second or third can in a row or, after the course of two or three days, that's all you can taste.


By the way, you don't ACTUALLY want me to explain why your link is irrelevent do you? I'm sure know my answer. Actually, it's not relevant to the discussion of fundamentalism here, although much of it's derived from the same source ... the Bible. Of course if you really understood what he was saying, heaven and hell are pretty much what you make of it (http://swedenborg.newearth.org/hh/hh49.html).

[Iacchus]

Perhaps I should cut to chase here, otherwise you might misconstrue this for the regular old stuff and get the wrong idea?

Excerpt from Emanuel Swedenborg's (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-search?search-type=ss&tag=dionysusforum-20&keyword=Emanuel%20Swedenborg&mode=books), Heaven and Hell ...


The Notion of Ruling Love (http://swedenborg.newearth.org/hh/hh49.html#479)


479. (i) Man after death is his own love or his own will. This has been proved to me by manifold experience. The entire heaven is divided into societies according to differences of good of love; and every spirit who is taken up into heaven and becomes an angel is taken to the society where his love is; and when he arrives there he is, as it were, at home, and in the house where he was born; this the angel perceives, and is affiliated with those there that are like himself. When he goes away to another place he feels constantly a kind of resistance, and a longing to return to his like, thus to his ruling love. Thus are affiliations brought about in heaven; and in a like manner in hell, where all are affiliated in accordance with loves that are the opposites of heavenly loves. It has been shown above (n. 41-50 and 200-212) that both heaven and hell are composed of societies, and that they are all distinguished according to differences of love. [2] That man after death is his own love might also be seen from the fact that whatever does not make one with his ruling love is then separated and as it were taken away from him. From one who is good every thing discordant or inharmonious is separated and as it were taken away, and he is thus let into his own love. It is the same with an evil spirit, with the difference that from the evil truths are taken away, and from the good falsities are taken away, and this goes on until each becomes his own love ...

[Terry]

Originally posted by Elind
Why do some people like to be chained to a wall and whipped?

endorphins, baby.

Allegedly...

--Terry.

[Elind]

Originally posted by Terry
endorphins, baby.

Allegedly...

--Terry.

Maybe a smart answer.

Some people can get a high from a couple of beers and some can get it from fantasy sex (who, me?) and some from telling an imaginary being their innermost thoughts. I could go on, but you get the idea, I'm sure.

[Ed]

You might consider the Pope's thoughts on the matter of evolution:

Today, almost half a century after the publication of the Encyclical, new knowledge has led to the recognition in the theory of evolution of more than a hypothesis. It is indeed remarkable that this theory has been progressively accepted by researchers, following a series of discoveries in various fields of knowledge. The convergence, neither sought nor fabricated, of the results of work that was conducted independently is in itself a significant argument in favor of this theory.

What is the significance of such a theory? To address this question is to enter the field of epistemology. A theory is a metascientific elaboration, distinct from the results of observation but consistent with them. By means of it a series of independent data and facts can be related and interpreted in a unified explanation. A theory's validity depends on whether or not it can be verified; it is constantly tested against the facts; whenever it can no longer explain the latter, it shows its limitations and unsuitability. It must then be rethought.

http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/message.htm
[

They probably think of the Catholics as a step above Atheists.

[Ed]

Since I have no interest in joining in over there I'll make some observations here. I comment on a post by "Earthless" early on:

To begin with, the Bible has stronger manuscript support than any other work of classical history - including Homer, Plato, Aristotle, Caesar, and Tacitus.

I would take great issue with Caesar and Tacitus. They both refer to historical events that are confirmed to such an extent only a seriously deluded person would question them in broad outline. The only historical records that I am aware of that specifically confirm the NT are

1) Josephus in his History of the Jews:

At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon their loyalty to him. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive. Accordingly they believed that he was the Messiah, concerning whom the Prophets have recounted wonders.

2) An uncovered inscribed column (I think) referring to Pilate as Governor.

That is it.


Equally amazing is the fact that the Bible has been virutally unaltered since the original writings, as is attested by scholars who have compared the earliest extant manuscripts with manuscripts written centuries later.

Well, which bible is he talking about? The fact is the the "Bible" only became the "Bible" after the council of Nicea where Constantine forced (more or less) some consistancy in the Church. I would also point out that Moslems insist that the words of the Koran today are precisely the same as when they were originally written. More on this at the end.

Additionally, the reliability of the Bible is affirmed by the testimony of its authors, who were eyewitnesses - to the recorded events, and by secular historians who confirm the many events, people, places, and customs chronicled in Scripture.

Perhaps one book was written by an observer to the events, but long after. In any event there is no copy extant that is contemporanious with any of the Apostles (how many of them were there again?) I have given the only specific account that refers to Jesus. To say that Jewish documents got the ideas of Sader and Passover and moneyleander correct is not proof of anything.

Futhermore, archaeology is a powerful witness to the accuracy of the New Testament documents.

I call BS. There is nothing from Archeology, as yet, that supports the NT.

Repeatedly, comprehensive archaeological fieldwork and careful biblical interpretation affirm the reliability of the Bible. For example, recent archaeological finds have corroborated biblical details surronding the trial that led to the fatal torment of Jesus Christ - including Pontius Pilate, who ordered Christ's crucifixion, as well as Caiaphas, the high priest who presided over the religious trials of Christ.

This gets to a biggie: why is it that Christians feel the need to lie to support their faith? I suspect that he is referring to some loopy christians that have scratched around in the Holy Land. References? Sadly, references from Christian "Journals" are suspect. You might ask whether or not the pious relics that abounded in the Middle Ages are real too. You might ask that, beyond assertion, what is his standard of proof.


It is telling when secular scholars must continually revise their biblical criticisms in light of solid archaeological evidence.

Proof?

Finally, the Bible records predictions of event that could not have be known nor predicted by chance or common sense.

Like the second coming which will occur during the "lives of those that hear me"? Proof is called for.

For example, the book of Daniel (written before 530 B.C.) accurately predicts the progression of kingdoms from Babylon through the Medo-Persian Empire, the Greek Empire, and then the Roman Empire, culminating in the persecution and suffering of the Jews under Antiochus IV Epiphanes with his desecration of the temple, his untimely death, and freedom for the Jews under Judas Maccabeus (165 B.C.).

It is statistically preposterous that any or all of the Bible's specific detailed prophecies could have been fulfilled through chance, good guessing, or deliberate deceit.

The problem with these types of debates is that you would really need to be an historian/bible scholar to comprehensively refute assertions such as this. The fact is that there was almost constant warfare between one group and another so that any litany of upheavels could probably be made to fit. Note how he drops specfic names. That is called verisimilitude and I bet a lie.

So we have manuscript evidence, archaeological evidence, historical evidence, predective prophecy, the science of statistical probability, etc that provides a rock solid foundation for the Bible being divine in origin rather than human.

So far, no.

Like the old adage goes, "I no longer had enough faith to be an atheist."

If you are interested in a list of resources which may be of interest to you, please let me know.

I made some requests.

Now, why do Christians (some) lie to support their faith. I came accross this when looking up the Josephus quote.

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man IF IT BE LAWFUL TO CALL HIM A MAN, for he was a doer of wonders, A TEACHER OF SUCH MEN AS RECEIVE THE TRUTH WITH PLEASURE. He drew many after him BOTH OF THE JEWS AND THE GENTILES. HE WAS THE CHRIST. When Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, FOR HE APPEARED TO THEM ALIVE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY, AS THE DIVINE PROPHETS HAD FORETOLD THESE AND THEN THOUSAND OTHER WONDERFUL THINGS ABOUT HIM, and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day (Antiquities 18:63-64).

Professor Shlomo Pines found a different version of Josephus testimony in an Arabic version of the tenth century. It has obviously not been interpolated in the same way as the Christian version circulating in the West:


At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon their loyalty to him. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive. Accordingly they believed that he was the Messiah, concerning whom the Prophets have recounted wonders.

The reference to this is the same as for the quote above. I think that it is telling that Christians cannot seem to leave the historical record alone and simply report it . You find deception in all areas of "proof" and particularly in the words of people like Hovind. Very sad and annoying.

[control_zape]

Originally posted by Elind
Why do some people like to be chained to a wall and whipped?

hmm... sounds like an option to loss some weight without starving.


KingMerv, in regards about participating on christian forums all I can say is that in spanish spoken sites ( like this: http://puebloescogido.com/foro/showthread.php?t=2451 ) the things are not better... so much for the christian love.

[KingMerv00]

Ok, I'm tired of being dismissed and insulted by some of these people (definately not all of them).

EVERYONE WITHIN THE SOUND OF MY VOICE, (er...typing) PLEASE post on this thread. I want them to see that we are people too. A few of them need real wake up calls. I'll owe you one.

[KingMerv00]

ARRRGH! MY ANGER MADE ME DOUBLE POST!

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by KingMerv00
Ok, I'm tired of being dismissed and insulted by some of these people (definately not all of them).I feel your pain, Merv, but you can't let this get to you. You are questioning the faith of people, some of which don't want their faith questioned. Faith is rarely, if ever, a rational conclusion (especially after the enlightenment). As you have aptly pointed out in that thead, faith is more often than not an emotional decision. When you challenge a person's emotional decision, they often take it personally.

I dig that you are frustrated, but you surely couldn't have thought that some folks would just roll over. My rule of thumb (not always followed) is that the madder I am, the longer I wait to reply. I might even do a few drafts first before actually submitting a reply.

You are doing good. Sending them here wasn't a bad move at all. However, I think a bunch of JREF members joining the other board to back you up would only lead to their members digging their heels in even harder.

[KingMerv00]

Originally posted by Upchurch
I feel your pain, Merv, but you can't let this get to you. You are questioning the faith of people, some of which don't want their faith questioned. Faith is rarely, if ever, a rational conclusion (especially after the enlightenment). As you have aptly pointed out in that thead, faith is more often than not an emotional decision. When you challenge a person's emotional decision, they often take it personally.

I dig that you are frustrated, but you surely couldn't have thought that some folks would just roll over. My rule of thumb (not always followed) is that the madder I am, the longer I wait to reply. I might even do a few drafts first before actually submitting a reply.

You are doing good. Sending them here wasn't a bad move at all. However, I think a bunch of JREF members joining the other board to back you up would only lead to their members digging their heels in even harder.

I didn't expect people to roll over. I did expect at least one person to reply with "Gee that makes me think.".

I only wanted one....just one :(

Sigh.

I should probably take this opportunity to say that I definately DON'T want dozens of JREF's swarming every post they have. If you want to post, I recommend that you post in threads like mine, the evolution thread, and others where skepticism can be applied. Jumping into a debate about Bible verse would be fruitless. And please be on your absolutely best behavior.

I think I'll go count to ten now.

[KingMerv00]

Upchurch, this is a quote from a thread entitled "Satan's Music" :

"With that said, I think there is more to music than just the lyrics....people seem to think it's just the lyrics that make Christian music Christian and the sound can be whatever. Well, true to a point...there is many, many different sounds, yes, and they all can be used to the glory of God, but when the music starts to disrupt the spirit of someone negatively, then red flags should pop up. Maybe this music isn't feeding my spirit in a positive way"

I dare you not to feel as I do.

"disrupt the spirit of someone negatively" ....weep

:brk: :brk: :brk:

[Elind]

Originally posted by KingMerv00
Ok, I'm tired of being dismissed and insulted by some of these people (definately not all of them).

EVERYONE WITHIN THE SOUND OF MY VOICE, (er...typing) PLEASE post on this thread. I want them to see that we are people too. A few of them need real wake up calls. I'll owe you one.

As far as I can tell, most posts here are with you. You started a good live thread. Are you referring to those on the other board or here?

[Marquis de Carabas]

Not all of them are unquestioning sheep. I'm interested to see where this one goes...

http://forums.christianity.com/html/P1270536/?sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view _collapsed;;page=unread#unread

[KingMerv00]

Originally posted by Elind
As far as I can tell, most posts here are with you. You started a good live thread. Are you referring to those on the other board or here?

The other board.

After reading my post...it is confusing. My bad.