This is the Anti-Christ

[Richard G]

Javier Solana is:

Secretary-General of the Council of the European Union (EU)
Secretary-General of the Western European Union (WEU)
High Representative for Common Foreign and Security Policy (CFSP)
Will be VP of the Commission in charge of External Relations

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The EU's decision-making process involve three main institutions:

•European Parliament (elected)
•European Commission (appointed)
•Council of the European Union (appointed)

This "institutional triangle" produces the policies and laws that apply throughout the EU.
Two other institutions have a vital part to play: the Court of Justice upholds the rule of European law, and the Court of Auditors checks the financing of the Union's activities.

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European Parliament
The European Parliament is the democratic voice of the peoples of Europe. Directly elected every five years, the members of the European Parliament (MEPs) sit not in national blocs but in seven political groups. Each group reflects the political ideology of the national parties to which its members belong. Some MEPs are not attached to any political group. Before the expansion there were 626 seats in the parliment, from 2004 to 2007 there will be 732, and from 2007 until 2009 there will be 786 seats. (This is the "seat number 666" that is unassigned, but it's probably just like the 13th floor, they probably just skipped number 666 as no one wanted it due to the negative connotations)

Parliament's principal roles are as follows.
•To examine and adopt European legislation (shared equally with the Council of Ministers)
•To approve the EU budget.
•To exercise democratic control over the other EU institutions
•To assent to important international agreements such as the accession of new EU Member States and trade or association agreements between the EU and other countries.

(as far as I can tell, this is the only main body that Solana is not part of... yet)

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European Commission
The European Commission is the driving force for the union and does a lot of the day-to-day work in the European Union. It drafts proposals for new European laws, which it presents to the European Parliament and the Council. The Commission makes sure that EU decisions are properly implemented and supervises the way EU funds are spent. It also keeps an eye out to see that everyone abides by the European treaties and European law.

Romano Prodi heads the EU executive as President of the European Commission
Chris Patten is Commissioner in charge of External Relations - This is the position/duties that will be moved to Solana as Foriegn Minister, along with additional power if I'm not mistaken

Also of note:
The European Commission is responsible for the General Report of 1998, Chapter V: Role of the Union in the world, Section 1: Common foreign and security policy:

666. In December the Vienna European Council expressed the opinion that the Secretary-General of the Council and High Representative for the CFSP should be appointed as soon as possible and be a personality with a strong political profile. It invited the Council to prepare common strategies on Russia, Ukraine, the Mediterranean region and the western Balkans, on the understanding that the first would be on Russia. Welcoming the new impetus given to the debate on a common European policy on security and defence, the European Council also noted that the CFSP should be backed by credible operational capabilities

This Commission report is what led to Recommendation 666 in June 2000

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The Council of the European Union is the EU's main decision-making body
Solana is Secretary-General of the Council of the European Union

The counsil has six key responsibilities:
1) To pass European laws. In many fields it legislates jointly with the European Parliament.
2) To co-ordinate the broad economic policies of the member states.
3) To conclude international agreements between the EU and one or more states or international organisations.
4) To approve the EU's budget, jointly with the European Parliament.
5) To develop the EU's Common Foreign and Security Policy
6) To co-ordinate co-operation between the national courts and police forces in criminal matters

Solana is also High Representative for Common Foreign and Security Policy (#5 above)

In addition, there are two decentralized bodies under the CFSP (Solana) that are of interest. Both came directly from the WEU.
(1) The European Institute for Security Studies (ISS): Its aim is to help create a common European security culture, to support the strategic debate by providing the best possible interface between European decision-makers and the diverse circles of non-official specialists. (like the CIA?)
(2) European Union Satellite Centre (EUSC): Its mission is to support EU decision-making in the context of the CSFP, and in particular of the ESDP, by enhancing the EU's capability to gather space related information to help prevent conflicts, support peace-keeping efforts in the event of such conflicts and provide effective humanitarian aid during natural and man-made disasters. Its task will hence consist of providing material resulting from the analysis of satellite imagery and collateral data, including aerial imagery as appropriate.

And then there is the Political and Security Committee (PSC)

The Political and Security Committee (PSC) follows international developments in the field of common foreign and security policy (CFSP), helps to define policies and monitors their implementation. Under the authority of the Council (Solana), it is responsible for the political control and strategic guidance of crisis management operations. Composed mainly of national representatives, the PSC is at the heart of crisis management activities. To ensure its smooth running, it is assisted by a Politico-Military Group, a Committee for Civilian Aspects of Crisis Management, and the Military Committee (MC) and Military Staff (MS) (this is similar to the National Security Advisory Committee, headed by Dr. Condoleezza Rice and the Secretary of Defense, Donald H. Rumsfeld)

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Where does the WEU fit into all of this?

The EU’s High Representative is also the WEU Secretary-General and
The Political and Security Committee (PSC) also make up the 10 nation WEU Permanent Council

Despite all the institutional changes in Europe (and what most web sites lead you to believe), the WEU Council and the Assembly of WEU are still in charge of Security and Defence for the EU, esp in relation to "emergency" Military actions.

Most documentation will say that the WEU has many Representatives, what they fail to mention is that only the 10 nations that make up the PERMANENT COUNSIL have voting power. They are:

France
Germany
United Kingdom
Spain
Italy
Greece
Belgium
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Portugal

There is one Vice-President of the Permanent Council from each of these 10 nations, plus a "president", but Solana as the Secretary-General has all the real power in the group, including the power to declare and emergency and direct the Military.

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As a Summary, there are 3 branches of government in the EU. They are the Parliament, Commission, and Council.

The members of Parliment are elected, but the Parliment actually has the least power of the three. Solana doesn't seem to be involved in the Parliment

Solana currently is the head of the Counsil, which has most of the decision making authority in the EU. He also heads the department within the Counsil that controls Security and Defence (the military). The power and decision making in this department actually comes from the 10 nation WEU Permanent Council, which Solana also runs.

When Solana is appointed as Foreign Minister he will also have a very powerful position in the third branch, the Commision. He will be VP and in charge of all foreign affairs for the EU.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but as a comparison, it seems to me that Solana has about the same power in the EU as one would have if we combined all of the US positions listed below:

Secretary of State, Colin Powell
Secretary of Defense, Donald H. Rumsfeld
National Security Advisor, Dr. Condoleezza Rice
Department of Homeland Security, Tom Ridge
Speaker of the House (Congress), Dennis Hastert (very powerful but anonymous position)
Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Richard B. Myers
Director of Central Intelligence, George J. Tenet
Chairman Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, Lt. Gen. Brent Scowcroft

And possible a few others.

Scources: http://europa.eu.int/index_en.htm
Also see http://assembly-weu.itnetwork.fr/en/presentation/presentation.html for a VERY interesting overview of Solana.

[geni]

This is JREF? RR hasn't had a masive change in it's colour sceme has it?

[Nikk]

Originally posted by Richard G

When Solana is appointed as Foreign Minister he will also have a very powerful position in the third branch, the Commision. He will be VP and in charge of all foreign affairs for the EU.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but as a comparison, it seems to me that Solana has about the same power in the EU as one would have if we combined all of the US positions listed below:

Secretary of State, Colin Powell
Secretary of Defense, Donald H. Rumsfeld
National Security Advisor, Dr. Condoleezza Rice
Department of Homeland Security, Tom Ridge
Speaker of the House (Congress), Dennis Hastert (very powerful but anonymous position)
Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Richard B. Myers
Director of Central Intelligence, George J. Tenet
Chairman Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, Lt. Gen. Brent Scowcroft

And possible a few others.

Scources: http://europa.eu.int/index_en.htm
Also see http://assembly-weu.itnetwork.fr/en/presentation/presentation.html for a VERY interesting overview of Solana.

Sure Solana brings under his wing a lot of international affairs responsibilities but as power is widely diffused in the EU between nation states and the central administrative machine this does not give him enormous personal power.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Nikk
Sure Solana brings under his wing a lot of international affairs responsibilities but as power is widely diffused in the EU between nation states and the central administrative machine this does not give him enormous personal power.

One thing that does NOT cause me anxiety is the prospect of a united Europe. The last one to pull that off was Hitler, and it didn't last.

[corplinx]

As someone raised in a fundamentalist church, let me be the first to tell you that their interpretation of Revelation is completely wrong.

Not only that, fundamentalist theologians are incorrect in classifying certain cryptic Old Testament texts as prophetic.

If Revelation and the other books are prophetic, then why aren't they accurate predictors? So far, only one prophecy (the rebirth of Israel) has come true.

Let me try this bit og logic. The battle of armageddon as described in the Bible cannot technically take place. Its simply impossible (reference Randi' Encyclopedia of Supernatural claims).

If then the battle isn't literal then it is a parable, metaphor, story, or cryptic text (or maybe just the hope of the author that the Romans would evetually fall).

When I was a youngster growing up in the 80s, the Soviet Union was the "bear that will come down from the north". Fundamentalists were sure Arafat was the antichrist because of his head rag. Gorbachev because of his birthmark. At one time the UN became the anti-christ until even fundamentalists figured out the UN couldn't collectively pick its own nose much less run a one world government.

The 1990s were supposed to be the "decade of harvest" . The last great revival before the tribulation. Guess what? There was no revival. There was no tribulation.

Don't even make me bring up the whole millenium thing.

If you assume that Revelation truely is prophecy then I would suggest to you that you change religions since its apparently a lousy predictor of human events.

[geni]

Originally posted by Jocko
One thing that does NOT cause me anxiety is the prospect of a united Europe. The last one to pull that off was Hitler, and it didn't last.

I'm pretty sure he fail to incorperate Britan and Spain amoungst others

[Jocko]

Originally posted by geni
I'm pretty sure he fail to incorperate Britan and Spain amoungst others

Add in the chunk of Russia he held and I think that would make up the deficit.
:D

[Ipecac]

Phew! About time the AntiChrist got here. Now maybe these stupid Christians will be raptured the hell out of here and the rest of us can live in peace.

[AWPrime]

RR is a good source for a sad laugh.

[Darat]

In some EU countries people are allowed to own handguns and keep them in their homes, perhaps this antichrist will make the UK change their laws?

[Hutch]

I posted this on another Dickie-bird thread in Puzzles on the same topic...


quote:
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Originally posted by Richard G
To put it another way, this man is the new Holy Roman Emperor. All Europeans are his subjects.
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My God! He's the AntiChrist!!

Best stick to gun rants, Dickie me boyo--you're a one-trick pony.


__________________
Politics, formed from the greek 'poly' meaning many and 'ticks' meaning small, blood-sucking insects.

Famous Last Words: "why boys, they couldn't hit an elephant at this distance" General John Sedgwick, 1864

Half the people don't vote. half the people don't read. Unfortunatley it's not always the same half.

Fate protects fools, children, and ships named Enterprise



Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

11-30-2004 01:23 PM



Note the time of the post was 1:23 PM, a good hour before RG's OP.

Actually, anyone with half a mind would have figured it out...and that is more than I'm willing to waste on poor Richard.

[c4ts]

How the hell do you equate the EU with the Holy Roman Empire??? It's democratic! There is no Emperor! No one person is in charge! Power is shared!

I mean, both are governments, both are part of Europe, but that's not enough to show anything. That's the equivalent of saying the United States government is a monarchy! Even as a metaphor, saying the European Union is the Holy Roman Empire makes no sense. You might as well say white is black because there is some vague reference to black in an interpreted prophecy, and no reference to white, but there's white in the parts you think the prophecy is talking about.

If Revelations or whatever actually were a predictor of the future, it wouldn't say "Holy Roman Empire," it would say "European Union" very clearly, and describe "European Union," and list all nations included, maybe even tell us how this union would form and acutally say the names of those who would be involved. But it doesn't do that, and somehow, there are people who act like it does.

[Johnny Pneumatic]

Is Richard G being serious? I knew he was really into weapons but I assumed he was a thinking agnostic or something.

[c4ts]

I just don't know anymore. The people on this particular board say all sorts of crazy things. The line between reality and joke disappeared with 1inC.

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by SkepticJ
Is Richard G being serious? I knew he was really into weapons but I assumed he was a thinking agnostic or something.

I don't think RichardG is for real. I think that someone took all the stereotypical traits of a redneck American (especially the way other countries perceive redneck Americans) and created RichardG. It's just their way to push buttons and be a sh*t disturber.

Just a theory of course. I have no proof.

[c4ts]

There are no genuine people on the internet. Only badly portrayed trollish stereotypes.

[Zep]

Kitten recipes, anyone?

[Lord Emsworth]

It rather seems like "this is your brain on religion" ... :cs:

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Richard G
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but as a comparison, it seems to me that Solana has about the same power in the EU as one would have if we combined all of the US positions listed below:

Secretary of State, Colin Powell
Secretary of Defense, Donald H. Rumsfeld
National Security Advisor, Dr. Condoleezza Rice
Department of Homeland Security, Tom Ridge
Speaker of the House (Congress), Dennis Hastert (very powerful but anonymous position)
Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Richard B. Myers
Director of Central Intelligence, George J. Tenet
Chairman Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, Lt. Gen. Brent Scowcroft

And possible a few others.



I'll correct you: You're wrong.

Ascribing that much power to one person in the EU is simply ludicrous to anyone with even a smidgen of knowledge of how EU works.

It takes ages for anything to get decided. Compromises upon compromises. Deals upon deals. Agreements upon agreements. Legislation upon legislation. Hey, it's a huge community, with many complex issues....

To think that Solana has this power is equivalent to believing in Illuminati-Tunnel-From-The-Vatican-To-The-White-House-Windsor conspiracy fantasies.

You're a nutcase, Dickie.

[Richard G]

Whatever you think, this is the most powerfull man in Europe.

Javier Solana
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Javier SolanaJavier Solana Madariaga (born July 14, 1942) is the current Secretary General of the European Union as well as the current High Representative for Common Foreign and Security Policy (CFSP) of the EU. At the same time he also holds the the office of the Secretary General of the Western European Union (WEU). In the past he also held the position of Secretary General of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), and in the future he is likely to hold the position of Foreign Minister for the European Union.

Solana frequently refers to himself as a "European and an Atlanticist." This refers to a long standing alliance between Western European-, American-, and Canadian-related interests. During his NATO tenure, Solana also chaired the Atlantic Council.

Contents [showhide]
1 History

1.1 Family Background
1.2 Early history
1.3 Role in NATO
1.4 Roles in the EU and the Western European Union


2 Future

3 External links

[edit]
History
[edit]
Family Background
Solana was born on July 14, 1942 in Madrid, Spain. On his maternal side, he is the grandson of famous Spanish diplomat/writer Salvador de Madariaga (1886-197 . Javier is the younger of the two sons de Madariaga's daughter Nieves (1917-2003). His older brother, Luis Solana de Madariaga, was born in Madrid in 1935. Solana's mother, like her more famous father, was also a published scholar and writer. Her full name at the time of her death was Nieves Hayat de Madariaga Mathews. She was employed for upwards of 20 years by the FAO (Food and Agricultural Organization), a United Nations agency headquartered in Rome. Her Yale University-published book on the life of Sir Francis Bacon was released in 1996. His maternal aunt is Isabel de Madariaga, a professor emeritus of Slavonic Studies at the College of London. She has also published historical works, most notably about Russian empress, Catherine the Great. Javier Solana's older brother Luis Solana is a retired Spanish telephone company chief executive officer; he was the first known Socialist party member to join the Trilateral Commission. Javier Solana, likewise, is active with the Trilateral Commission as he is with the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) where although not a member, he is a frequent speaker and close friend of many of its principals. He is likewise active with the Foreign Policy Association (FPA).

On Solana's paternal side, his grandfather was Don Ezequiel Solana Ramirez. He was reportedly a revered educator who died in 1931.

[edit]
Early history
Javier Solana's most personally listed affiliation apart from the Socialist party is the Spanish chapter of the Club of Rome. On a personal level, he has been said to "eat little and sleep less;" his is reportedly "a monk's diet of fish and fruit." Some accounts state that although he is active in global disarmament efforts, his favorite personal hobby is "collecting guns".

Professionally, apart from his political careers, Solana holds a doctorate in physics; he is fond of saying that "in a previous incarnation I worked as a professor in solid-state physics." He received his doctorate while studying at the University of Virginia under a Fulbright Scholarship in the United States.

Solana left the USA in 1971 to return to Spain with one of his teaching mentors. There he became employed by Complutense University of Madrid, Spain. In 1975 his political nemesis, Generalissimo Francisco Franco died. Thereupon Solana, expelled in his youth for anti-Franco rebellion, once again involved himself in Spanish political life. As a representative of a teacher's union, he ran and won election as the Socialist candidate for the parliamentary seat he was to begin occupying in July 1977.

Solana has been a member of the Spanish socialist party PSOE since 1964. Between 1982 and 1995 he held different positions in the Spanish government including that of the Minister for Culture, Minister of Science and Education and lastly as Minister for Foreign Affairs (1992-1995). For most of those years he was also the official spokesman for the Spanish government.

On November 20th, 1995, during Spain's turn at the rotating six month presidency of the European Union, Javier Solana concluded a treaty between the European Union and Israel.

[edit]
Role in NATO
On November 30, 1995, Solana was appointed as NATO Secretary General. His election was a surprise to many, including 52 United States congressmen who telegraphically protested his appointment because of his alleged Marxism and open Castro sympathies. He had once been on the USA's own subversive list. He was best known, per the Spanish newspapers observing the scene, as one of Spain's most vocal and most prominent opponents of NATO. He had once written a pamphlet, "50 Reasons to say NO to NATO." Between 1995 and 1999, Solana was NATO Secretary General.

The Secretary General of NATO usually has a ministerial role, passing on instructions from the member nations' consensus to its military components, but during his 1995 to 1999 NATO tenure, Solana was given sole unusual powers to make military decisions over Yugoslavia. For example, on January 30, 1999, he was given sole power to make all further military decisions over NATO Balkan operations. This included the say so on whether or not bombings should occur. Madeline Albright, USA Secretary of State then said by way of explanation, "Solana has the power and has had it since January 30, 1999. We are speaking with one voice through Javier Solana.", and on March 21, 1999, USA President Bill Clinton told a national American television audience in regards to the forthcoming bombings: "I agree with Javier Solana's decision to do this." The order to commence bombing against Yugoslavian targets was subsequently given solely by Solana.

USA General Wesley Clark, who as head military officer of the NATO coalition reported to and took orders from Solana, reports in his book WAGING MODERN WAR that he once asked Solana the secret of his success. Solana reflected briefly and then answered, "First make no enemies. Then never ask a question to which you do not know or do not like the answer."

Despite his activity in world politics, most Americans are unfamiliar with Solana's name, the Barcelona Process, and certainly the extent of his growing powers which are becoming increasingly global in scope and influence.

[edit]
Roles in the EU and the Western European Union
Solana's NATO term was to have expired in December, 1999; however, he left that job two months early, in October 1999, to take the newly created position of Office of the High Representative of the Common Foreign and Security Policy (also more informally called "Senor PESC" - Post of European Security Commissioner). He was also given the title and responsibility of Secretary General of the European Union; this was for the purpose of giving continuity between the EU's 6 month rotating presidential administrations. These positions caused Solana to be generally described by the European press as "tsar of European military and foreign policy."

On November 20, 1999, Javier Solana was also selected by the ten-nation core of the Western European Union (WEU) to be its pending Secretary General, pending unification with the European Union. However, on June 5, 2000, the ten nation WEU in its Assembly Recommendation 666 noted that under its governing treaties, complete merger could not occur, and therefore they support a proposal to have the WEU Secretary General and CFSP High Representative (both Solana) preside over the PSC (Political Security Committee) and convene the council of the European Union in the event of an emergency. (Such an emergency was declared after the 3/11 (March 11, 2004) Madrid train bombings.)

This appointment came on the same day as major world leaders were gathering at deceased British author Sir Harold Acton's old Italian villa then and now owned by New York University's School of Law. The gathering was of the Third Way Movement. Solana was in attendance at the villa as were U.S. President and Mrs. Clinton, Sydney Blumenfeld, British Prime Minister Tony Blair, Romano Prodi and many other distinguished transatlantic leaders.

Javier Solana presides over Europe's Political Security Committee (PSC). All seated on that committee hold ambassador rank in the EU and serve at the pleasure of Javier Solana. All foreign ambassadors of the European Union entity (as opposed to its individual countries) as well as all EU military personnel are ultimately accountable to the Council of the European Union through Javier Solana. The EU's hope is that the pending new European constitution will strengthen and extend this European federal type set of structures.

Javier Solana did most or even all of the spearheading and coordination of the Barcelona Conference, the launching pad of the 27 nation Barcelona Process expected to lead to a Mediterranean free trade zone by 2010. This conference was opened by him on November 27, 1995. He opened by declaring that it was auspicious that it began on the 900th anniversary of the calling of the first crusade by Pope Urban II, and commented "What a lot of intolerance and misunderstanding that led to." The conference concluded with the 27 nations signing the Barcelona Treaty.

Solana has also negotiated numerous "Treaties of Association" between the European Union and various Mideast countries. In his tenure with the European Union, Javier Solana has been relatively busy on the world stage negotiating various integration treaties with South American countries such as Bolivia and Colombia. He has also been a vital part of the Quartet for Peace in the Middle East along with Kofi Annan of the United Nations, a Russian representative, and a USA representative.

[edit]
Future
Increasingly as of 2004, there is increased reliance on Javier Solana on the part of the EU and the WEU, which has noticeably strengthened his military and foreign power. On June 29, 2004 Javier Solana was selected by the Council of the European Union to be its first Foreign Minister under the new EU constitution. Until formal ratification of the constitution occurs (slated for 2006), Solana is de facto exercising the defined powers of that future office as well as its approximate 26 billion euros budget (formerly reserved for the Commissioner of External Affairs).

A sign of that is that Solana no longer travels with the EU rotating presidency and the Commissioner of External Affairs (Chris Patten) as the reigning EU "troika" -- since the vote of the Council of Ministers, Solana now speaks and travels as the sole voice rather than one of three voices.

This was dramatically illustrated by events in Israel on or about July 20 to 22nd (2004). Israel's Prime Minister Ariel Sharon declined to meet with Solana, saying that because of an EU vote against Israel at the UN that Israel would not work with the EU, notwithstanding despite its prominence on the Quartet for Peace in the Middle East. Solana stunned the world, Israel included, by replying that like it or not, both he and the EU were there to stay on the Israeli-Palestinian decision making processes.

The Clinton White House once announced in a press conference that Javier Solana was the fulfillment of Henry Kissinger's long stated wish to have only one phone number to ring up for Europe. Post June 29, 2004, many other sources were making the same observation -- that Kissinger (and anybody else) could ring up Europe by calling only Javier Solana.


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As the anti-Franco activist in his youth and the anti-NATO activist in his 40s combined with his leadership of NATO in his 50s, Javier Solana has sometimes been called a "squarer of circles" (i.e. reconciler of opposites). Past illustrations of this (whether intentional or not) were his marriage to the daughter (Conception Gimenez) of a top Franco general and by his heading NATO in his fifties. He has also played an active role in the various Mideast peace processes at least between 1991 and the present time.

Javier Solana is the father of two grown children: a son, Diego, and a daughter, Vega. Solana reportedly has never moved his immediate family - wife and children - to Brussels, his main residence since taking his NATO post in the late fall of 1995 and his European Union posts thereafter.

[geni]

You know you could credit the wikipedia when you take stuff from it.

[Richard G]

I did at the top of the article.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Richard G
Whatever you think, this is the most powerfull man in Europe.


Okay. I don't know enough about the EU to dispute that. However, I don't buy into the Book of Revelations Anti-Christ nonsense and somebody is going to be the most powerful man in Europe and you have yet to provide any commentary on why Solana is any better or worse of a choice than anyone else for that position.

On a side note, I would love to see a strong EU. not because I have any feelings toward Europe but because an EU strong enough to rival the US would be good for the US. Simply put, competition breeds innovation. And that's good for all parties conceerned. Look at how much scientific and economic progress we made during the cold war, for example, and notice how much of that was fueled by our competition with the Soviets. Right now, we don't have a strong rival to spur us to greater heights of scientific and economic progress. I think it would be good if we did.

I tend to agree with Orson Welle's quote from The Third Man, "Italy for thirty years under the Borgias had warfare, terror, murder, bloodshed, but produced Michelangelo, DaVinci, and the Renaissance. And Switzerland had brotherly love and five hundred years of democracy and peace. And what did they produce? The cuckoo clock". While the bloodshed and terror isn't a necessary component of political competition anymore, the competition itself is vital. We don't have that now, but the EU would be a good source of htat if they ever got their act together.

[Richard G]

It appears Solana may be fulfilling some of Bible prophecies. He rose from among a 10-nation alliance, his appearance is associated with the number 666 in two places, he is leading a revival of the Roman Empire, and he is now negotiating a possible 7-year deal with Israel. These are all things the coming Antichrist is supposed to do. That doesn't mean he is the Antichrist, but it does mean it may be possible.

[Darat]

Originally posted by Richard G
It appears Solana may be fulfilling some of Bible prophecies. He rose from among a 10-nation alliance, his appearance is associated with the number 666 in two places, he is leading a revival of the Roman Empire, and he is now negotiating a possible 7-year deal with Israel. These are all things the coming Antichrist is supposed to do. That doesn't mean he is the Antichrist, but it does mean it may be possible.

Which “ten nation alliance�?

Originally it was six countries: Belgium, Germany, France, Italy, Luxembourg and the Netherlands, then three more joined Denmark, Ireland and the UK followed by Greece, followed by Spain and Portugal, then Austria, Finland and Sweden and just recently 10 more.

So where is this ten nation alliance or did you get confused by the fact that just recently 10 new countries joined the existing (more then 10) members?

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Richard G
It appears Solana may be fulfilling some of Bible prophecies. He rose from among a 10-nation alliance, his appearance is associated with the number 666 in two places, he is leading a revival of the Roman Empire, and he is now negotiating a possible 7-year deal with Israel. These are all things the coming Antichrist is supposed to do. That doesn't mean he is the Antichrist, but it does mean it may be possible.

The problem is that this is a post-diction, not a prediction. it really isn't all that difficult to shoehorn just about any powerful figure into the role of the Anti-Christ as predicted in the bible, people have been doing it for some 20 centuries now. This is because the bible onlymentions some vague, cryptic things about the anti-christ rather than mentioning specifics. If the Bible had said something like "Europe shall join into a union and a man named Solana will lead that Union and he shall be the Anti-Christ", I would be a lot more impressed with Solana's Anti-Christ credentials and with the Bibles prophecies in general.

As it is, the bible "prophecies" are so vague that a little bit of creativity can make them fit nearly anyone and any nearly any event. That being said, I just can't buy that there is even going to BE an Anti-Christ, much less that the Anti-Christ is Javier Solana

[headscratcher4]

All of this is meaningless. The true test of whether he is the anti-christ (and as powerful as RR suspects) will be wheterh he can impose uniform production and quality standards on European cheeses. If the French and the Greeks 9not to mention the Spanish) subcomb to uniform European health and production standards (and pasturization requirements) for cheese, you can bet that this guy is the Devil!

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by headscratcher4
All of this is meaningless. The true test of whether he is the anti-christ (and as powerful as RR suspects) will be wheterh he can impose uniform production and quality standards on European cheeses. If the French and the Greeks 9not to mention the Spanish) subcomb to uniform European health and production standards (and pasturization requirements) for cheese, you can bet that this guy is the Devil!

Hey, wait a minute. Doesn't the Book of revelations say "Blessed are the Cheesemakers"? Wouldn't that imply that he is actually doing God's work?

No? Maybe I have watched Monty Python's Life of Brian one time too many.

[Richard G]

Which “ten nation alliance�?

Most documentation will say that the WEU has many Representatives, what they fail to mention is that only the 10 nations that make up the PERMANENT COUNSIL have voting power. They are:

France
Germany
United Kingdom
Spain
Italy
Greece
Belgium
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Portugal

There is one Vice-President of the Permanent Council from each of these 10 nations, plus a "president", but Solana as the Secretary-General has all the real power in the group, including the power to declare and emergency and direct the Military.

The EU is a strange creature. Nothing like it has ever existed before.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Richard G

The EU is a strange creature. Nothing like it has ever existed before.

When the US was created, it was a strange creature, nothing like it had existed before. Ditto the Soviet Union.

The fact that nothing like it has existed before is neither intrinsicly good or bad.

[geni]

Originally posted by Richard G
Most documentation will say that the WEU has many Representatives, what they fail to mention is that only the 10 nations that make up the PERMANENT COUNSIL have voting power. They are:

France
Germany
United Kingdom
Spain
Italy
Greece
Belgium
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Portugal

There is one Vice-President of the Permanent Council from each of these 10 nations, plus a "president", but Solana as the Secretary-General has all the real power in the group, including the power to declare and emergency and direct the Military.

At present there is not militry and It would not act againt the orders of it's indivual member states. Inverdently have you ever tried writeing out a decleration of emergancy in european leagalise in 17 langugaes (or whatever number we are up to now)


The EU is a strange creature. Nothing like it has ever existed before.

You were saying it was the holy roman empire before.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Richard G

The EU is a strange creature. Nothing like it has ever existed before.

That is neither a good nor bad thing. The US was a strange creature when it was first created, nothig likeit had existed before. But so was the Soviet Union.

[Richard G]

There are two E.U. resolutions that set up the power of the 10 nation beast, and the power of the beast (anti-christ).

Both are numbered 666.

Recomendation #666:
http://www.assemblee-ueo.org/en/documents/sessions_ordinaires/txt/2000/rec666.html

The European Council Decision #666 (created the office of High Representative (H.R.).
http://europa.eu.int/abc/doc/off/rg/en/1998/x0666.htm

And no one could buy or sell anything without that mark, which was either the name of the beast or the number representing his name. Wisdom is needed to understand this. Let the one who has understanding solve the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. His number is 666.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Richard G
There are two E.U. resolutions that set up the power of the 10 nation beast, and the power of the beast (anti-christ).

Both are numbered 666.

Recomendation #666:
http://www.assemblee-ueo.org/en/documents/sessions_ordinaires/txt/2000/rec666.html

The European Council Decision #666 (created the office of High Representative (H.R.).
http://europa.eu.int/abc/doc/off/rg/en/1998/x0666.htm

Firstly, the fact that the EU has a resolution #666 means nothing in and of itself. If the EU reached 665 resolutions it would make sense that the next one would be #666.

Secondly, I don't see how either of those resolutions relates to the biblical passage in question except by the most tortured logic imaginable. You have to stretch so far to make such a connection that it isn't even funny.

If you want to establish that there is such a thing as an Anti-Christ and that Javier Solana is him, you'll need to do much better than that.

[Richard G]

The Greek word for "name" used in the above verse could also be interpreted "authority." In other words, the number 666 could actually be the number giving the coming Antichrist his authority to act for the revived Roman Empire. And, as far as the holder of the EU's Office of High Representative is concerned, that's what that number does -- it gives him his authority.

Here's my point: Here we find two places where a new European leader's rise to power is directly associated with that infamous number of prophecy. And, this person not only appeared from among a 10-nation alliance -- and now has three of those 10 nations to subdue -- but, as I write, this same person is negotiating a possible seven-year agreement with Israel.

Those are all facts. No tortured logic at all.

[hgc]

Originally posted by Richard G
Most documentation will say that the WEU has many Representatives, what they fail to mention is that only the 10 nations that make up the PERMANENT COUNSIL have voting power. They are:

France
Germany
United Kingdom
Spain
Italy
Greece
Belgium
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Portugal

There is one Vice-President of the Permanent Council from each of these 10 nations, plus a "president", but Solana as the Secretary-General has all the real power in the group, including the power to declare and emergency and direct the Military.

The EU is a strange creature. Nothing like it has ever existed before. Who on Earth gave Luxembourg so much power? Satan?

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by Richard G
There is one Vice-President of the Permanent Council from each of these 10 nations, plus a "president", but Solana as the Secretary-General has all the real power in the group, including the power to declare and emergency and direct the Military.[/B]
The EU has an army?

Well well, I never knew.
Solana currently is the head of the Counsil, which has most of the decision making authority in the EU. He also heads the department within the Counsil that controls Security and Defence (the military). The power and decision making in this department actually comes from the 10 nation WEU Permanent Council, which Solana also runs.
You have not explained how he gets them all to vote his way. Possession?
Correct me if I'm wrong here
You're wrong
but as a comparison, it seems to me that Solana has about the same power in the EU as one would have if we combined all of the US positions listed below:

Secretary of State, Colin Powell
Secretary of Defense, Donald H. Rumsfeld
National Security Advisor, Dr. Condoleezza Rice
Department of Homeland Security, Tom Ridge
Speaker of the House (Congress), Dennis Hastert (very powerful but anonymous position)
Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Richard B. Myers
Director of Central Intelligence, George J. Tenet
Chairman Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, Lt. Gen. Brent Scowcroft

And possible a few others.
The EU, a glorified customs union, has a tax take of about 1% of GDP, most of which goes on farm subsidies so far as I can see, and employs about as many people as Birmingham City Council, none of them military personnel, and is completely irrelevant to anyone without a farm, an import-export business, or a human rights case. The most controversial thing they've done in years was to pass a measure on how curvy bananas should be. Solana is a euorocrat nonentity. And can I have some of whatever you're smoking? --- 'cos it must be really good stuff.

[geni]

Originally posted by Richard G
The Greek word for "name" used in the above verse could also be interpreted "authority." In other words, the number 666 could actually be the number giving the coming Antichrist his authority to act for the revived Roman Empire. And, as far as the holder of the EU's Office of High Representative is concerned, that's what that number does -- it gives him his authority.

Here's my point: Here we find two places where a new European leader's rise to power is directly associated with that infamous number of prophecy. And, this person not only appeared from among a 10-nation alliance -- and now has three of those 10 nations to subdue -- but, as I write, this same person is negotiating a possible seven-year agreement with Israel.

Those are all facts. No tortured logic at all.

I don't very often see people writing the numbers of EU reserlutions on their arms or forheads though.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Richard G
The Greek word for "name" used in the above verse could also be interpreted "authority." In other words, the number 666 could actually be the number giving the coming Antichrist his authority to act for the revived Roman Empire. And, as far as the holder of the EU's Office of High Representative is concerned, that's what that number does -- it gives him his authority.

Here's my point: Here we find two places where a new European leader's rise to power is directly associated with that infamous number of prophecy. And, this person not only appeared from among a 10-nation alliance -- and now has three of those 10 nations to subdue -- but, as I write, this same person is negotiating a possible seven-year agreement with Israel.

Those are all facts. No tortured logic at all.

The tortured logic is pretty apparnet. Firstly you have to be prety selective about how you count the nations of the EU to make it into a 10 nation alliance. You also have to do some logical contortions to even make a 10 nation alliance part of the prophecy. then you have to play semantic games and re-translate a word from "name" to "authority" (and that is assuming youa re right on that point. I don't speak ancient Greek and I am willing to bet you don't either) in order to turn the resolution number that creates his office into the number of the beast. Meanwhile you STILL haven't explained how any of that translates into needing "The mark of the Beast" in order to buy or sell.

And even if you do explain that last detail, that is the beauty of making post-dictions. You contort the facts to fit the events after they happen rather than actually predicting what is to come. This technique has been used to prove Napoleon, Ronald Reagan, Gorbachev and many others as "The Anti-Christ". I will wager that if I did some research I could find many more "Anti-Christs" throuogh the ages that use a similar chain of post-dictive logic. But we're still here. Funny, no?

[Tony]

It's offical. Richard G has entered quackville.

[Earthborn]

Originally posted by hgc
Who on Earth gave Luxembourg so much power?It's probably only in there because Belgium and the Netherlands are to. Which reminds me...

France
Germany
United Kingdom
Spain
Italy
Greece
Benelux
Portugal

What '10 nation alliance' ? :p

!devas tolp s'nataS droL !wehW

[hgc]

Originally posted by Earthborn
It's probably only in there because Belgium and the Netherlands are to. Which reminds me...

France
Germany
United Kingdom
Spain
Italy
Greece
Benelux
Portugal

What '10 nation alliance' ? :p

!devas tolp s'nataS droL !wehW Now who's doing a little postdiction arithmetic? ;)

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
The problem is that this is a post-diction, not a prediction. it really isn't all that difficult to shoehorn just about any powerful figure into the role of the Anti-Christ as predicted in the bible, people have been doing it for some 20 centuries now.
Bill Clinton is the antichrist (http://becomingone.org/666.htm) :
Although having the number of the Beast does not in itself mean Clinton is/will be the Beast-man or the last anti-Christ, the Beast will have the number six hundred sixty-six (666) when he comes, and will be a great liar. [Dan 8:25; "When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies." (John 8:44)] No leader has had a name that equals six hundred sixty-six (666) in both languages of the Bible, Hebrew and Greek. This may be "impossible," since both languages have different numerical-letter values, but Clinton has the number nevertheless. Will Clinton become the Beast-man of Revelation? If he joins himself to a ten-nation group, he will be on his way to fulfilling prophecy.
Now of course thanks to Richard G we know that he did join himself with a ten-nation group, namely the WEU. It's all coming true! Any minute now, the Rapture will start and all the bleedin' fundies will disappear. I can't wait.

[Richard G]

The EU has an army?

Battlegroups are first step towards a Euro army
http://www.news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/11/22/warmy22.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/11/22/ixworld.html

[Nyarlathotep]

Doing a just a tiny bit of lunch hour research has turned up that there is a whole school of thought, the Preterists, that arose in the 16th century that the "prophecies" in the bible refered to events that were contemporary to the times that the Bible was written. It was (and is, as they still exist) common among them to ascribe the role of the Anti-Christ to Nero. Their logic (persecution of Christians, a name that ads up to 666 numerologically, and so on) is at least as good as RichardG's.

The Preterist scholars contended that the primary message of the NT prophecies were directed to the peoples contemporary with its writing and not sixteen centuries later. Christ himself taught that "This generation" to whom he was presently speaking "would not pass till all be fulfilled." Lk. 21:32. In the same manner, Revelation opens and closes with the express purpose that it must "shew unto his servants what things must shortly come to pass." Rev. 1:1; 22:6,10,12,20

The Preterist acknowledged that an application by principal could be made that the Pope was antichristian on a grand scale, yet clearly not the Antichrist of Biblical prophecy. Most Preterists understood the true Antichrist to have been either Nero or the Hebraic personification of the Jewish leadership before A.D. 70.


Link (http://www.preteristarchive.com/Preterism/james-timothy_p_02.html)

(though the thing about the reasons for their identification of Nero came with further researchon them but a bit of Googling will turn it up anyone is intererested)

Like I said, Biblical "prophecies" are so vague that nearly any powerful p[ersonage could be said to fit the role.

[Darat]

Originally posted by Tony
It's offical. Richard G has entered quackville.

Well I'm going to hold back on this one. If this "antichrist" forces the UK to change its laws to allow us to own hand guns then Richard may be on to something.

[Rinky]

Hmm. EU is such a mess that a single person does not and cannot have all that power RG is claiming. Most of the time even the smallest decision takes ages because there are so many countries and opinions involved.

[Richard G]

Hmm. EU is such a mess that a single person does not and cannot have all that power RG is claiming.

You clearly haven't read the EU resolutions, which are law.

[Cosmo]

Antichrist, eh? Why didn't you say so?

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/0402/23/NYHETER-23s14-bush-13.jpg

[Johnny Pneumatic]

We all know how much bible prophecy can be trusted.


Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

[Beleth]

Another bit of evidence:

Javier's name is Hispanic... just like Jesus!

[Kitty Chan]

I thought he was supposed to be from Romaina.??

This guy sounds good but so do alot of other guys. I think this antichrist would have to be someone influencial in the background. That all the govt leaders would listen to.

Hitler (a type of antichrist of which the bible said there would be many) was obvious after awhile and everybody stopped him. So for this antichrist to be effective at all he will have to be subtle.

Kind of like the example of boiling a frog slowly.

I say so because if it does come to this final antichrist scenario then no one can stop him and the rest will not want to they will love him. This is when he will step into the total power.

[geni]

Originally posted by SkepticJ
We all know how much bible prophecy can be trusted.


Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

You are making the assumption that no more cities of isreal remain to be built.

[Checkmite]

Hint: it's called "Recommendation 666" because it was the next one after Recommendation 665.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Richard G
The Greek word for "name" used in the above verse could also be interpreted "authority." In other words, the number 666 could actually be the number giving the coming Antichrist his authority to act for the revived Roman Empire.

I don't know who told you that, but whomever it was is stupid.

In the verse in question (Revelation 13:17), the Greek words ονομα and ονοματος are used, both translating to "name" (the second being possessive, as in "his name"). They cannot "also be interpreted to mean authority" - that is pure invention. The real Greek word for "authority" is εξουσιαν, which is actually used in Revelation 13:2, as in, "...and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority". If the author intended to say "authority" in Revelation 13:17, he would've used the word εξουσιαν, not ονοματος.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
I don't know who told you that, but whomever it was is stupid.

In the verse in question (Revelation 13:17), the Greek words ονομα and ονοματος are used, both translating to "name" (the second being possessive, as in "his name"). They cannot "also be interpreted to mean authority" - that is pure invention. The real Greek word for "authority" is εξουσιαν, which is actually used in Revelation 13:2, as in, "...and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority". If the author intended to say "authority" in Revelation 13:17, he would've used the word εξουσιαν, not ονοματος.

Forgive me, I don't have my Liddel with me, nor Verbi Greci, and it's been a while so my Greek is kind of rusty, but are you talking about a construction of nomos when you say onoma, a derivitave, or something else entirely?

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by c4ts
Forgive me, I don't have my Liddel with me, nor Verbi Greci, and it's been a while so my Greek is kind of rusty, but are you talking about a construction of nomos when you say onoma, a derivitave, or something else entirely?

My guess is a construction. Since we're talking ancient Greek here, it seems likely to me that ονομα is an "ancestor".

[Tony]

Any updates on Mr. Solana's status as the anti-christ?

[LW]

How the hell do you equate the EU with the Holy Roman Empire???

(I missed this thread the first time around.)

Well, as Voltaire put it: "The Holy Roman Empire is neither holy, nor Roman, nor empire". That sounds quite a bit like EU if you think about it.

[David Swidler]

If I want to be the antichrist, where do I apply?

[Cetecea]

well, the number has changed to 616.

That's probably thrown the whole thing into the crapper anyway.

Now, I'll go search for EU councile decision and declaration 616...