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View Full Version : Overcoming Fear of Death: An Atheists Perspective.


BillyJoe
4th December 2004, 11:01 PM
Below are some quotes from a review in E-Skeptic of the book "Facing Death: Epicurus and His Critics". The book suggests that Epicurus could provide a philosophy for atheists to overcome fear of death....

Death is nothing to us because the instant we cease to exist we experience nothing....

That “death is not to be feared”, asserts Epicurus, can be demonstrated by rational argument. “Death is nothing to us” because, at the moment we die, the instant we cease to exist, we experience nothing. “For something to be good or bad for some person, that something . . . must be perceived by that person.” Death is not perceived by the individual because the cessation of life marks the cessation of all sensation, including that of physical and mental pain. Death is merely the termination of a stream of consciousness. It is unreasonable, says Epicurus, for us to be fearful of a future event that will not harm us when it occurs. “What is no trouble when it arrives is an idle worry in anticipation,”

The fear of pain prior to death and the death of loved ones can be partly lifted.....

Epicurus grants that it is not irrational to fear the possibility of pain prior to death, or to the experience of losing a loved one. However, if we have a dying friend or family member who approaches death with an Epicurean perspective, some of the pain of our own grief may be lifted. Additionally, says Epicurus, the fact that “death is nothing to us,” does not prevent us from recollecting with fondness pleasant memories of our loved ones. In fact, looking back allows us to edit out past painful experiences by simply choosing not to recall them.

"Tranquility", not continued existence, is the criterion for a life well lived.....

Of course, our anxieties about death reflect not just the fear of ceasing to exist, but also the awareness of having something precious taken away from us, of being eternally deprived of an existence that would have continued to yield pleasure. Epicurus’ response to this challenge is that ataraxia (the Hellenistic term for tranquility or imperturbability), not duration, is the criterion of a life well lived. Once ataraxia has been achieved, happiness cannot be augmented, either by more accomplishments or by a longer life.

Seeing life as an unfolding story engenders the fear of death. Living in the present ameliorates this fear.....

This notion may be difficult to accept for those who see life as a coherent narrative with a beginning, middle, and end. According to this view, our lives have a “plot,” which must be played out in order to be complete. The fear of death significantly relies on this disposition to see one’s life as an unfolding story.
For Epicurus, this narrative structure (the way many people experience their being in time) is just an arbitrary conceptual construction. The important questions are not “What have I made of my life?” or “What will I make of my life?” but “How am I right now?” It is the present-shaping consequences of the past and our attitude to the future that matter, not the past and future as such. If I am experiencing ataraxia, I am a perfected Epicurean, and logging in more months or years, or attaining more goods or honors, is beside the point. From this perspective, death deprives me of nothing and is nothing to be feared.

Is fear of death is "hard-wired" into our brains or can it be overcome?......

Perhaps the most effective argument potentially undermining the Epicurean perspective is that it is at odds with our visceral emotions....Logic may simply not be powerful enough to overcome the fear of death. Reason must compete with other intuitive, possibly innate, and unconscious sources of motivation. It is possible to claim that the fear of death is a crucial evolutionary product, ‘hard-wired,’ as it were, into our minds in order to allow us to survive.” Of course, if death is in fact bound up in the structure of our brains, we are stuck, and the Epicurean project is dead in the water. However, if it is possible to live a human life without fearing death then fearing death is not essential to being human. Only our own subjective and attentive response to Epicurus’ philosophy can answer the question of whether the fear of death can be overcome. Those of us who respond to Epicurus’ reasoning can say to him, “I agree with what you say about death, and you have persuaded me to laugh in its face.”

It may take time to overcome the negative impact of our cultural heritage and upbringing.....

If we recognize that our view of death is molded during childhood and reinforced over many years by the cultures into which we are born, we will see that it is a constructed concept subject to rebuilding. For the Epicurean, learning to think about death correctly is an integral part of living a good life. Expecting Epicurus to convert us overnight to his “death is nothing to us” perspective may be asking too much, but his project is a worthy one. His reasoning....is sound, and his philosophy, if understood and applied, is literally life changing. Epicureanism does have the potential to emancipate us from the fear of death. Thus freed, we see life in a new light.


I don't fear death but perhaps this book might tell me why.
Has anyone read the book and is it worth reading?
Does anyone have any opinions
(I only really want to know about the book but the opinions will come anyway so what the heck)

BillyJoe

Z
4th December 2004, 11:06 PM
I haven't read it yet, but you just earned this book a spot on my 'To be read sometime in the next three centuries' list!

:D

I've never feared death, either, and it took me a long time to understand why people mourn the dead so deeply. But, then, I don't see my life as having a 'plot' or 'path' per se; I live for the experiences I can gain right now, and I guess I fit this model fairly well.

If I can motivate myself to get and actually read this book instead of the ones I'm working on now, I'll try to remember to post a review of it here. Thanks, BJ!

Kilted_Canuck
4th December 2004, 11:45 PM
Even with that, death still scares the S*** out of me mostly because I want to keep existing, nonexistance is just as scary as heaven...oh well, I think i have a long time till i start worrying for death.

Atheist, believer, both are crappy choices for an afterlife (or lack thereof), so I'll just live my life to the fullest and not worry about what comes after.

synaesthesia
5th December 2004, 12:00 PM
For me, LSD really helped me achieve equanimity with the idea that all things will pass. My first truely spiritual harmony with death and the universe was very much like LSD, although I had done no drugs.

Neither the one experience nor the other was more 'valid', because both helped me achieve inner and outer harmony with existence.

All things will pass, but it's ok, for I too will pass. I am here now and for all eternity, but am not elsewhere. In some ways, what I do will extend beyond the bounds of my life, but this too will pass.

I will not mind this either, for by then, I will neither fear nor hope nor rest. I will not be.

And with this, I am at peace.

evildave
6th December 2004, 11:44 AM
A little fear of injury and death is a healthy thing. If something in your life seems scarier (or somehow worse) than death, suicide seems like a more agreeable solution. Especially for young people who lack a long-term perspective.

For me, death ain't the problem, it's dying - or worse, being crippled in some manner that renders me completely helpless and a burden to others. A coma, stroke or paralysis, or many more nightmarish scenarios.

I may not care what happens to me after death ($#!% happens), but there are always the people who are left behind and their feelings to consider. Possibly better to have something happen all at once out of the blue than have people worry over it for months, and watch me "suffer", but probably better to say and allow to be said things they would want to before the end rather than ending it too quickly.

In other words, although much is written about a person's death being "all about them and their feelings", I think there is something to be said for service to the living (if at all possible) being a substantial component. If at all possible, showing no fear of death, and being strong and bottling a few things up won't cost you anything in the long run. After all, what are you saving it up for now?

I'd rather not be gibbering and in terror at the end, if it can be helped (at a point where this seems a likely outcome, suicide seems acceptable), but there is always the component of sudden disease, fever, agonizing pain, delerium and all manner of brain injury to make the terror come beyond your control anyway. Hospitals are scary that way. They'll hook you up to machines to keep you going well beyond hope of recovery, and drug you up so you are only semi-conscious as the waking nightmare plays its self out over the weeks, even months and years. In this scenario, where you're helpless, probably restrained, and have no real rest or abatement from suffering (mental and physical) for extended periods of time, it seems unlikely any philosophy will help. Sorry.

It's just a bit sad that pets are loved more than people in a certain way. When the suffering is acute, few give a trip to the vet to end it a second thought.

BillyJoe
7th December 2004, 03:29 AM
zaayrdragon,

You should see my list!!!

But I think people mourn the dead so deeply because they were attached to them so deeply whilst they were alive. It's the deep loss that they are mourning.



Kilted_Canuck

I think to "live life to the fullest and not worry about what comes after" might not be an ideal stragedy. Don't you think that taking on a full frontal attack from a postion of strength now might be better than being forced on the defensive in your most vulnerable state later on?


synaesthesia,

I understand what you are saying - which probably means you were joking! :D


evildave,

You are right, the problem is dying. It is always easier on those left behind if you die slowly. That sounds like a joke, but it isn't. Sudden death is good for you (that also sounds like a joke, doesn't it?). But a real bummer for the people who loved you.


Thanks for your replies.
BillyJoe

farmermike
7th December 2004, 06:07 AM
Personally,a brain aneurysm at a water park with the kids would be a great way to go.But a terrible experience for the family.There's something in me that would like 6 mos notice before I depart.Always living for the moment seems somewhat short sighted,maxed out credit cards amongst other debt can attest to that.Being somewhat future minded,6 mos would be good to tie up loose ends with family and friends.

LostAngeles
7th December 2004, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by Kilted_Canuck
Even with that, death still scares the S*** out of me mostly because I want to keep existing, nonexistance is just as scary as heaven...oh well, I think i have a long time till i start worrying for death.

Atheist, believer, both are crappy choices for an afterlife (or lack thereof), so I'll just live my life to the fullest and not worry about what comes after.

Yeah, that's pretty much my view, except I add that there are "things needing doing" as a reason to not die.

Keneke
8th December 2004, 07:22 AM
For the record, I am terrified of death. It keeps me up at night when I sleep alone.

Just not being. Not really gaining happiness or being sad, but just not experiencing. That's the worst part. The scariest part in this whole conversation is:

Originally posted by synaesthesia
I will not mind this either, for by then, I will neither fear nor hope nor rest. I will not be.

Holy sh*t, that gives me the shivers.

Originally posted by BillyJoe
Once ataraxia has been achieved, happiness cannot be augmented, either by more accomplishments or by a longer life.


How many of us reach this state? Because of the many different types of personalities out there (as many as there are people), I think that very few of us would reach ataraxia, unless it was a natural state older humans settle into. Which I doubt. No, I think that something horrible is coming, and I can't avoid it.

Silicon
8th December 2004, 11:24 AM
Whenever I get scared about death, I think about the enormity of the universe. I think of the atoms in my body as having been forged inside ancient supernovae.

If I picture my body as those atoms, I don't feel worried at all. You aren't getting rid of me!

Marquis de Carabas
8th December 2004, 11:30 AM
I don't fear death because I am immortal.*

Really, though. It doesn't bug me that much usually. I fear death enough that I don't walk out in front of buses or make fun of the armed insurgents in my living room, but it doesn't keep me up at night. What will be will be.

*The great thing about telling people you're immortal is that they cannot prove you wrong unless they kill you. And if they do that, they can't rub it in.

TruthSeeker
8th December 2004, 12:03 PM
We are doing a study in which we interview people within the last few months or weeks of life. (They all have terminal cancer)

Everyone, religious or not, searches for some kind of immortality. For the religious it is easier...heaven, or reincarnation.

For the nonreligious, the immortality is more symbolic...children, life's work, charitable donations, even contributing to knowledge by being in our study

The search for meaning is also interesting. Everyone struggles with the "why me?" question. The theist has to find a way for their pain, suffering, shortened life to fit into the Judeo-Christian God's plan. They struggle with anger and abandonment. Those from a non-JudeoChristian tradition have an easier time of it, unless they go down the karma "I deserve this, I'm being punished path" (which some of the Judeo-Christians struggle with to) The atheist has to find meaning without reference to God's plan. Sometimes it is harder for them, but usually it is easier because they don't feel "betrayed" They tend towards more naturalistic explanations

These results are all preliminary and somewhat impressionistic. Please take with a huge grain of salt

evildave
8th December 2004, 07:55 PM
What, like pillar sized?

TruthSeeker
8th December 2004, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by evildave
What, like pillar sized?


No, bigger...several orders of magnitude bigger :D

BillyJoe
9th December 2004, 01:47 AM
Marquis,

Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
I fear death enough that I don't walk out in front of buses... That is fear of dying, not fear of death.

Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
*The great thing about telling people you're immortal is that they cannot prove you wrong unless they kill you. And if they do that, they can't rub it in. ...and you get to feel great when you're dead. :)

BJ

BillyJoe
9th December 2004, 01:51 AM
Keneke,

Originally posted by Keneke
For the record, I am terrified of death. It keeps me up at night when I sleep alone.....Just not being. Not really gaining happiness or being sad, but just not experiencing. That's the worst part. What about living for eternity with no escape option? Isn't that the most terrifying thing imaginable?

BJ

BillyJoe
9th December 2004, 01:58 AM
mike,

Originally posted by farmermike
Always living for the moment seems somewhat short sighted,maxed out credit cards amongst other debt can attest to that. Well, I think it's "living in the present" rather than "living for the moment".....

The important questions are not “What have I made of my life?” or “What will I make of my life?” but “How am I right now?” It is the present-shaping consequences of the past and our attitude to the future that matter, not the past and future as such.

billyjoe.

farmermike
9th December 2004, 05:38 AM
Originally posted by BillyJoe
mike,

Well, I think it's "living in the present" rather than "living for the moment".....



billyjoe.
The thing about most people is that we can be very shortsighted in a lot of ways yet we always think we're going to live a little bit longer.and we're almost always right.

Marquis de Carabas
9th December 2004, 06:03 AM
Originally posted by BillyJoe
Marquis,

That is fear of dying, not fear of death.
Touche.

Dancing David
9th December 2004, 06:15 AM
I figure that death is the admission price of life, if you don't die then you don't get to live.

Grieving the dead is a mark of respect for their life, it is very hard when your freinds start dying. My best friend got to watch his community ger decimated by HIV over the last two decades. Very sad.

Fear of death, not me I am 46 and starting to loose my memeory, get the usual aches and pains and all. By the time this body is very old, death will be a compabion on the journey. Hell would be making mistakes and living with them for an eternity.

I like the buddhist perspective, nothing is permnament, the only thing that carries forward is our acts.

Keneke
9th December 2004, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by BillyJoe
Keneke,

What about living for eternity with no escape option? Isn't that the most terrifying thing imaginable?

BJ

It could be...except I am not the type of person to ever get bored; I believe some call it "childlike wonder". Comes from enjoying Disney World too much.

I'd say anything permanent would be bad. Living forever, being dead forever, eternal torment forever, playing a harp forever.

elliotfc
9th December 2004, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by TruthSeeker
The theist has to find a way for their pain, suffering, shortened life to fit into the Judeo-Christian God's plan. They struggle with anger and abandonment.

This is natural, considering Jesus on the cross.

This also puts the lie to the belief that Christianity offers some sort of childish comfort to the believer. It can be argued, successfully I think, that Christianity makes such a natural process needlessly complicated.

-Elliot

BillyJoe
10th December 2004, 03:46 AM
mike

Originally posted by farmermike
The thing about most people is that we can be very shortsighted in a lot of ways yet we always think we're going to live a little bit longer.and we're almost always right. But, at some point in our lives, and this is an important point, we will be dead wrong. :D

billyjoe

BillyJoe
10th December 2004, 03:50 AM
Originally posted by Keneke
I'd say anything permanent would be bad. Living forever, being dead forever, eternal torment forever, playing a harp forever. At least if you're dead forever you don't feel it.

Crossbow
14th December 2004, 04:29 PM
The best way I have found to handle my fear of death is by learning to fly.

The whole time I am flying, I am thinking things like:

What should I do if the engine blows up?
What should I do if a tire blows out during landing?
What should I do if a bird crashes through the windsheild?
What should I do if another plane bumps into me?
What should I do if I get lost?
Am I smart enough not to have a bad accident report written about me?
And so on and so forth.

I have found that with flying one either learns how to handle their fear of death properly, or they should quit flying.

I hope this helps!

BillyJoe
15th December 2004, 03:24 AM
Interesting, Crossbow.

I last flew about 16 years ago. It sounds like you're a pilot but, of course, I was just a passenger. I flew, with my wife, from the mainland to Tasmania across Bass Strait. The take-offs and landings were exciting, even exhilarating, for me but my wife was driven to near panic. On the other hand she relaxed completely whilst we were suspended over the ocean, whereas my nerves were severely tested. Fortunately the trip took only 50 minutes.

I've tried to analyse these reactions form time to time, but I'm not sure I really understand them. Perhaps I'm okay provided there's something happening. Sort of like when a sudden unexpected situation arises, the best thing you can do is to do something, anything but nothing. But suspended over the ocean, it feels like the plane could just drop out of the shy into the ocean and there's absolutely nothing you could do about it. Also, drowning seemed, back then, a particularly bad way to die. Since then I have thought up at least half a dozen more gruesome ways to go and, in contrast, drowning would seem quite pleasant.

On the other hand, my wife now travels regularly to England and thoroughly enjoys the experience every time. She still wont go on roller-coaster rides though. I think I would be okay on an inter-state flight, but if I was to go on an overseas trip, I think I would need a few distractions. Or maybe a good sleep - I wouldn't mind waking up dead.

BillyJoe