Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself.

[Wolverine]

One of my favorite Carlin-isms from his bit on the ten commandments.

If only people could heed the advice...



Got a knock on my door this morning from a pair of fundies, whom I politely instructed to get lost (the presence of a rather pissed off barking dog aided their departure greatly).

I'm extremely upset not only at the President but his administration's "faith-based initiative" crap, and sick of the sermons we receive from the Commander-in-Chief (and others) on television and radio.

Our Governor recently declared a "State Day of Prayer." (http://www.governor.state.tx.us/divisions/press/pressreleases/PressRelease.2003-03-20.5234)

This crap is not limited to the Republican Party; there are similar resolutions that garner bipartisan support in the House and Senate. Fact of the matter is that our elected representatives are aware that the majority of the voting public practice some form of religion, and I wish they would stop pandering to their religious constituents from the floors of Congress. That goes for both sides of the aisle.

e.g.: S. RES. 91
108th CONGRESS
1st Session

S. RES. 91
Affirming the importance of a national day of prayer and fasting, and expressing the sense of the Senate that March, 17, 2003, should be designated as a national day of prayer and fasting.

RESOLUTION
Affirming the importance of a national day of prayer and fasting, and expressing the sense of the Senate that March, 17, 2003, should be designated as a national day of prayer and fasting.

Whereas the President has sought the support of the international community in responding to the threat of terrorism, violent extremist organizations, and states that permit or host organizations that are opposed to democratic ideals;

Whereas a united stance against terrorism and terrorist regimes will likely lead to an increased threat to the armed forces and law enforcement personnel of those states that oppose these regimes of terror, and that take an active role in rooting out these enemy forces;

Whereas Congress has aided and supported a united response to acts of terrorism and violence inflicted upon the United States, our allies, and peaceful individuals all over the world;

Whereas President Abraham Lincoln, at the outbreak of the Civil War, proclaimed that the last Thursday in September 1861 should be designated as a day of humility, prayer, and fasting for all people of the Nation;

Whereas it is appropriate and fitting to seek guidance, direction, and focus from God in times of conflict and in periods of turmoil;

Whereas it is through prayer, self-reflection, and fasting that we can better examine those elements of our lives that can benefit from God's wisdom and love;

Whereas prayer to God and the admission of human limitations and frailties begins the process of becoming both stronger and closer to God;

Whereas becoming closer to God helps provide direction, purpose, and conviction in those daily actions and decisions we must take;

Whereas our Nation, tested by civil war, military conflicts, and world wars, has always benefited from the grace and benevolence bestowed by God; and

Whereas dangers and threats to our Nation persist, and in this time of peril it is appropriate that the people of the United States, leaders and citizens alike, seek guidance, strength, and resolve through prayer and fasting: Now, therefore, be it

Resolved, That it is the sense of the Senate that--

(1) March 17, 2003, should be designated as a day for humility, prayer, and fasting for all people of the United States; and

(2) all people of the United States should--

(A) observe this day as a day of prayer and fasting;

(B) seek guidance from God to achieve greater understanding of our own failings;

(C) learn how we can do better in our everyday activities; and

(D) gain resolve in how to confront those challenges which we must confront.

You gotta be freakin' kidding.:rolleyes:
Similar legislation has been submitted in the House.
Sigh. I hear GC's words again: "Three out of four people now believe in angels. What are you, f****** stupid?!?"

If you're a practicing deist, theist, etc., fine -- whatever works for you.
But keep your damned invisible sky fairy out of our schools and government, off our currency, and the f*** out of my life. :mad:



Needed to vent. Thanks.

[Occasional Chemist]

(1) March 17, 2003, should be designated as a day for humility, prayer, and fasting for all people of the United States; and
(2) all people of the United States should--
(A) observe this day as a day of prayer and fasting;


Fasting?

Does that mean I can still have my cheeseburger if I'm an atheist? How about my Freedom Fries and Freedom Toast? What do the owners of eating establishments have to say about this brazen attempt of Congress to destroy their businesses?

So many questions ...

[subgenius]

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful."
-- Seneca the Younger (4? B.C. - 65 A.D.)

[arcticpenguin]

Fasting? On St. Paddy's day? Aye and begorrah, they'll not succeed with that approach!

[Checkmite]

Wolverine, fine...up till:

Originally posted by Wolverine
If you're a practicing deist, theist, etc., fine -- whatever works for you.
But keep your damned invisible sky fairy out of our schools and government, off our currency, and the f*** out of my life. :mad:


Theist, I can see. But Deist? What exactly does a "practicing Deist" do? :D

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
Theist, I can see. But Deist? What exactly does a "practicing Deist" do? :D

:o rofl :D

I had originally started typing a list of specific religions, but backspaced them out to simplify.
Stupid me, sorry for the poor syntax... hell, it's pretty funny though, so I'll leave it. :)

Thanks for pointing out my boo-boo.
(I also have an Olympic-class hangover today, so have a heart. ;) )

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Wolverine



(I also have an Olympic-class hangover today, so have a heart. ;) )

Don't sweat it, I got your back. :cool:

[Lisa]

Originally posted by Occasional Chemist


Fasting?

Does that mean I can still have my cheeseburger if I'm an atheist? How about my Freedom Fries and Freedom Toast? What do the owners of eating establishments have to say about this brazen attempt of Congress to destroy their businesses?

So many questions ...
That stuck me too when I was reading it.
Wolv, I realize it was 10 days ago, but if you had sat out on your front lawn chowing on a nice slab of dead cow with sauteed mushrooms and a brew, could anything have been done to you in a legal sense?
I think they slide out of this one with the word "should". Nice high sounding words, but this resolution has no teeth.
Note to self: if knocking on Wolv's door, bring beer.

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by Lisa
Nice high sounding words, but this resolution has no teeth.

Yeah I know. It's the waste of time and resources that pisses me off, not to mention the separation issue.

Things like this are equally annoying (from the 107th Congress):

S. Res. 286

Whereas the Los Angeles Lakers are 1 of the greatest sports franchises in history;

Whereas the Laker organization has won 14 National Basketball Association Championships;

Whereas the Los Angeles Lakers are only the fifth team to win 3 consecutive National Basketball Association Championships and the seventh team to sweep the finals 4 games to none;

Whereas the Laker organization has fielded such legendary superstars as George Mikan, Wilt Chamberlain, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Earvin ``Magic'' Johnson, and now, Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant;

Whereas Shaquille O'Neal won his third straight National Basketball Association Finals Most Valuable Player award, joining Michael Jordan as the only player to win 3 consecutive awards;

Whereas Shaquille O'Neal scored a record 145 points in the 2002 4-game finals series;

Whereas Shaquille O'Neal's 59.5 percent career field goal percentage in National Basketball Association Finals games is number 1 all-time and his 34.2 point scoring average ranks second;

Whereas Kobe Bryant was named to the 2001-2002 All-National Basketball Association First Team after averaging 25.5 points per game, 5.5 rebounds per game, and 5.5 assists per game during the regular season;

Whereas Kobe Bryant averaged 26.8 points, 5.8 rebounds, and 5.3 assists during the 2002 National Basketball Association Finals;

Whereas Coach Phil Jackson won his ninth National Basketball Association title, tying the record of legendary Boston Celtics coach, Red Auerbach;

Whereas Coach Phil Jackson won his 156th postseason game, surpassing former Lakers Coach Pat Riley to become the winningest playoff coach in National Basketball Association history;

Whereas the Los Angeles Lakers epitomize the spirit of their hometown with their determination, heart, stamina, and amazing comeback ability;

Whereas the support of all the Los Angeles fans and the people of California propelled the Los Angeles Lakers to another National Basketball Association Championship; and

Whereas the Los Angeles Lakers are poised to win a fourth straight National Basketball Association Championship next season: Now, therefore, be it

Resolved, That the Senate commends and congratulates the Los Angeles Lakers on winning the 2002 National Basketball Association Championship Title.

:rolleyes: Was that really necessary? Slow day on the Hill? Sigh.

[WildCat]

Originally posted by Wolverine
:rolleyes: Was that really necessary? Slow day on the Hill? Sigh.
This is a cheap shot, this resolution was after they solved all the nation's problems.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by Wolverine


Yeah I know. It's the waste of time and resources that pisses me off, not to mention the separation issue.

Things like this are equally annoying (from the 107th Congress):



:rolleyes: Was that really necessary? Slow day on the Hill? Sigh.

This kinda crap would never have made it out of committee if Bill Bradly were still in the Senate. ;)

[schplurg]

Resolved, That the Senate commends and congratulates the Los Angeles Lakers on winning the 2002 National Basketball Association Championship Title.
Are you Sh*tting me? Seriously, is this real? I feel like an idiot asking this, because it has to be a joke, right? RIGHT??!!

Oh gawd please be a joke :mad:

Never mind, I looked it up. Sounds familiar now that I think about it.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d107:S.Res.286:
I'm so pissed off I don't even know what to say. I sure as hell can't say it here.

[AmateurScientist]

Originally posted by schplurg

Are you Sh*tting me? Seriously, is this real? I feel like an idiot asking this, because it has to be a joke, right? RIGHT??!!

Oh gawd please be a joke :mad:

Never mind, I looked it up. Sounds familiar now that I think about it.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d107:S.Res.286:
I'm so pissed off I don't even know what to say. I sure as hell can't say it here.

Yeah, this is real. These kinds of back-patting resolutions get passed all the time, especially in state legislatures. They love to pass resolutions honoring and recognizing their constituents. Guess which ones.

AS

[Occasional Chemist]

How about this one for a proposed constitutional amendment?

source (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:H.J.RES.39:)


Article --
`A law that prescribes the Pledge of Allegiance or provides for United States coins or currency is not a law respecting an establishment of religion because it refers to God in the Pledge or includes a reference to God on coins or currency.'.


For an encore, I supposed they will make a constitutional amendment that says the earth is flat.

[Wolverine]

:eek: :mad:

Sheesh. On the bright side, this measure has no co-sponsors, and looks to have been tabled swiftly.

[Thumper]

Well, I consider myself a very religious person -- a devout Roman Catholic. I agree with you 100%... there's no reason for me (or anyone) to push my religious beliefs off on you (or anyone). And I for one am also extremely tired of the strengthening trend in American politics to mention God and prayer in every speech. They have absolutely no right to push their religious practices off on me (or anyone). It's called politeness. It's called common sense. It's also called 'separation of church and state.'



Two cents from Tennessee

[Wolverine]

Update:

H. RES 153 passed the House yesterday.


H. Res. 153

In the House of Representatives, U.S.,

March 27, 2003.

Whereas the United States is currently engaged in a war on terrorism in response to the attacks of September 11, 2001;

Whereas the Armed Forces of the United States are currently engaged in a campaign to disarm the regime of Saddam Hussein and liberate the people of Iraq;

Whereas, on June 1, 1774, the Virginia House of Burgesses called for a day of fasting and prayer as an expression of solidarity with the people of Boston who were under siege by the enemy;

Whereas, on March 16, 1776, the Continental Congress, recognizing that the `Liberties of America are imminently endangered' and the need `to acknowledge the overruling Providence of God', called for a day of `Humiliation, Fasting and Prayer' ;

Whereas, on June 28, 1787, during the debate of the Constitutional Convention, Benjamin Franklin, convinced of God's intimate involvement in human affairs, implored the Congress to seek the assistance of Heaven in all its dealings;

Whereas, on March 30, 1863, in the midst of the Civil War, Abraham Lincoln, at the bequest of the Senate, and himself recognizing the need of the Nation to humble itself before God in repentance for its national sins, proclaimed a day of fasting, prayer and humiliation;

Whereas all of the various faiths of the people of the United States have recognized, in our religious traditions, the need for fasting and humble supplication before Providence;

Whereas humility, fasting, and prayer in times of danger have long been rooted in our essential national convictions and have been a means of producing unity and solidarity among all the diverse people of this Nation as well as procuring the enduring grace and benevolence of God;

Whereas, through prayer , fasting, and self-reflection, we may better recognize our own faults and shortcomings and submit to the wisdom and love of God in order that we may have guidance and strength in those daily actions and decisions we must take; and

Whereas dangers and threats to our Nation persist and, in this time of peril, it is appropriate that the people of the United States, leaders and citizens alike, seek guidance, strength, and resolve through prayer and fasting: Now, therefore, be it


Resolved, That it is the sense of the House of Representatives that the President should issue a proclamation--

(1) designating a day for humility, prayer , and fasting for all people of the United States; and

(2) calling on all people of the United States--

(A) to observe the day as a time of prayer and fasting;

(B) to seek guidance from God to achieve a greater understanding of our own failings and to learn how we can do better in our everyday activities; and

(C) to gain resolve in meeting the challenges that confront our Nation.

*** Edited to add:

Complete vote results here. (http://clerkweb.house.gov/cgi-bin/vote.exe?year=2003&rollnumber=90)

[zakur]

Whereas dangers and threats to our Nation persist and, in this time of peril, it is appropriate that the people of the United States, leaders and citizens alike, seek guidance, strength, and resolve through superstition: Now, therefore, be it

Resolved, That it is the sense of the House of Representatives that the President should issue a proclamation--

To sacrifice virgins at the top of the nearest volcano, write letters to Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy, cross their fingers and their toes, throw salt over their collective shoulders, avoid stepping on cracks lest we should break our mothers' backs, leap over the foul line rather than stepping on it, wear their lucky underwear, do a rain dance, search high and wide for four leaf clovers, and hang horseshoes over their doorways.

Through these important actions, Zeus and the all-powerful Sun God will see to it that our troops are safe, our soil is fertile and will yield an abundance of crops, and the evil-doers will be overcome. And may God bless the United States of America. Amen.

[Wolverine]

:D

So, you running for office?

[schplurg]

(1) designating a day for humility, prayer , and fasting for all people of the United States; and
etc, etc...

And it passed by that many votes? 346 - 49. Wow!
This is extremely scary. I thought we had at least a few scraps left of our constitution. Who the...what...ah hell...

AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So now I'm supposed to email my state's Reps and tell them how stupid they all are...again. I can accept the Lakers...but Gawd?!

I need a drink, anyone else? Taking orders...I got a full bar for y'all, and they're on the house!

[Hypocolius]

Originally posted by schplurg


I need a drink, anyone else? Taking orders...I got a full bar for y'all, and they're on the house!

Mine's a Guinness.

[Lisa]

Can't you see the real reason behind all of this? These people are working too hard. They're not getting enough sleep.
What we really need is a resolution for a federally mandated bedtime.:rolleyes:

[Lemastre]

Originally posted by Wolverine
Was that really necessary? Slow day on the Hill? Sigh. The legislative agenda seems to contain a lot of silly resolutions like this, most of which slide by unknown to the public and are quickly forgotten. You might get the impression that most days on the hill are slow. Things seem to speed up late at night when there's something such as the Patriot Bill to ram through.

[Wolverine]

Hi, Lemastre.

Since you've found the time to reference the Patriot Act on this thread, would you be so kind as to address the questions (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=333987#post333987) posed to you previously on the subject?

[Roadtoad]

You know, I really don't have much of an opinion regarding "In God We Trust" on our money. And I tend to see the phrase "Under God," in the pledge as a move towards inclusiveness, rather than exclusion, but I gotta go with you on this one, Wolverine. A national day of fasting and prayer?

I'm sitting here wondering where it ends. "Jesus wants you to drive a Ford." (Seriously! I worked at a Christian radio station, and this one was nearly aired! Or at least something real close.) God will bless you if you do X, and will condemn everyone who does Y; on whose authority? This reminds me of the time Pat Robertson declared on national TV that God had told him that he would be the next president. (Note: That Robertson is NOT president is not only cause for rejoicing, but proof positive that Robertson is a false prophet, and should not be listened to by ANYONE.)

Someone who doesn't believe in God is not going to follow this edict. People who believe in God are already doing it and don't need this edict. This is nothing more than posturing for the Moral Myrmidons hanging out in Jerry Falwell's camp. On all fronts, it's a failure and an insult.

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by Roadtoad
And I tend to see the phrase "Under God," in the pledge as a move towards inclusiveness, rather than exclusion, but I gotta go with you on this one, Wolverine.

Realizing we're in agreement :) -- I view the insertion of "Under God" in the POA as the result of successful lobbying by religious groups to promote their agenda and shove god belief down the throats of others. In terms of inclusiveness, I thought "one nation, indivisible" conveyed that sentiment perfectly.

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by Wolverine


Realizing we're in agreement :) -- I view the insertion of "Under God" in the POA as the result of successful lobbying by religious groups to promote their agenda and shove god belief down the throats of others. In terms of inclusiveness, I thought "one nation, indivisible" conveyed that sentiment perfectly.

Possibly. I have to keep in mind, "under God" was added just about the time Madeleine Murray O'Hare won her case in the Supreme Court regarding prayer in school. (No, I won't insult you with the same hackneyed line about algebra and school prayer...)

Bear in mind, that as a Christian, (albeit, one who's struggling with said faith, and it's collision course with common and uncommon sense), I'm actually in agreement with the ban on school prayer; it's a bad idea. If you want your kids praying at the start of the day, get off your lazy ass and do it with them first thing in the morning before they get on the bus. It's not the job of the school to be teaching your kids your beliefs, it's yours alone.

Another point regarding this school prayer nonsense (sorry, this got me fired up...): I've known too many teachers who, over the years, in spite of the ban, have made their religious beliefs known. Unfortunately, their ACTIONS had put the lie to their stated beliefs. (Trust me, I could tell stories...!) Frankly, they do irreparable damage not only to their own credibility, but to the credibility of the school system, to the concept of public schools, and to the kids themselves.

No, I don't want prayer in public schools; it's based upon a fallacious concept, one that this would somehow create better citizens or more compassionate people. It does not. It does not teach virtue, and at its best, it can only confirm good ones. That is something you learn at home or on your own. Trying to make our public school system pick up where parents and extended families have chosen to fail is a disaster. (In my not-so-humble opinion, that's the real cause of the Columbine massacre.)

Jamming religion down a child's throat is every bit as bad as denying a child any and all contact with people who possess religious belief. (The latter, obviously, is not going to happen here, at least not any time soon.) Forcing people to accept a God they choose to reject does not save them, it damns you.

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Roadtoad
You know, I really don't have much of an opinion regarding "In God We Trust" on our money. And I tend to see the phrase "Under God," in the pledge as a move towards inclusiveness, rather than exclusion,
I strongly disagree. How could adding a phrase that excludes ~ 10% of the population be considered inclusive? How about if we said "One nation, of white people" instead? Wouldn't that be an inclusive attempt to unite all the white Americans?

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

I strongly disagree. How could adding a phrase that excludes ~ 10% of the population be considered inclusive? How about if we said "One nation, of white people" instead? Wouldn't that be an inclusive attempt to unite all the white Americans?

No, that would DEFINITELY be exclusionary. And, even as a White American, I'd move against that one, because it cuts out significan portions of the population, all of whom are equally, if not more, American than I am.

Besides, I suspect Wolverine may have covered this one. :D

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by subgenius
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful."
-- Seneca the Younger (4? B.C. - 65 A.D.)

I love those quotes from the Romans and Greeks. They were every bit as advanced in political technology as the the politicians of today.

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


I love those quotes from the Romans and Greeks. They were every bit as advanced in political technology as the the politicians of today.

And we ignore them far too often because they were badly dressed, usually at our own peril.

I've found myself thumbing through Plato and others, including Machiavelli's The Prince. (That latter one is easy to read; takes less than a day. It's absorbing it all that takes the time.) Why is it that now, when George starts talking about God and Religion, I start getting nervous?

(Why do I get the feeling Ashcroft would do better selling Slurpees at a 7/11?)