What a sad world we live in :(

[clk]

10-year-old Arrested in Death of 3-Year-Old (http://www.nynewsday.com/news/nyc-kid0328,0,7638383.story?coll=nyc-topnews-short-navigation)

[Wolverine]

@#$%...

[Reginald]

it is.

:(

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2157880.stm

Reminds me of a discussion I had with Lisa about he rise in psychotic children.

Does anybody else notice just how agressive (angry?) childen are becoming?

I mean a 10year old killing a 3 yrd old child WTF going on. :mad:

Originally posted by Reginald
it is.

:(

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2157880.stm

Please don't go there, this make my blood boil, and just where are the little shites in their new identities living? What they did is beyond words what I feel about them no word can accurately describe. Some body somewhere is living near these killers unaware, where is the logic and justice in that?

[ImpyTimpy]

The question for me is, are we just hearing more about these brutal acts now that information is so readily available? Or is it the rise in new age parenting ideas which shun the 'old' evil ways of parenting?? Ideas like don't smack your kid, talk to them instead - or count to 10 :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Biker Babe
Reminds me of a discussion I had with Lisa about he rise in psychotic children.

Does anybody else notice just how agressive (angry?) childen are becoming?

I mean a 10year old killing a 3 yrd old child WTF going on. :mad:

[ImpyTimpy]

Quoted from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2157880.stm

Lord Woolf said "only time will tell" if the decision to release Thompson and Venables was correct.

So if those two sick bastards kill someone else, does Lord Woolf go to jail with them? Or does he say oh, look at that chums, I was wrong.. So sorry...

Originally posted by ImpyTimpy
The question for me is, are we just hearing more about these brutal acts now that information is so readily available? Or is it the rise in new age parenting ideas which shun the 'old' evil ways of parenting?? Ideas like don't smack your kid, talk to them instead - or count to 10 :rolleyes:



Maybe, but still kids today are far more aggressive I know the whole worlds got more aggressive and the camaraderie that used to exist doesn't or It s in a minority, but kids today they are seriously aggressive you can see it in their posture and eyes.


Yes that whole issue to smack does that increase violence ,dint smack and give the kids more ammo with rules and regulation they run wild.

No win situation.

A gentle smack as a last resort I cant think that leads to out right violence, if anything this non smacking non disciplining that has occurred is actually resulting in psychotic and aggressive children imho.

[Reginald]

Originally posted by Biker Babe
Please don't go there, this make my blood boil, and just where are the little shites in their new identities living? What they did is beyond words what I feel about them no word can accurately describe. Some body somewhere is living near these killers unaware, where is the logic and justice in that?

These "children" who do this type of thing are different in my opinion. I dont care what all the do gooders say, these kids knew what they were doing. Your average 10 year old would just not be capable of these types of horrors under any pressure or influence. There must be something wrong in thier minds, since I dont believe their upbringing was in any way unusual.

It is my opinion, that the 2 who killed in the english case, should spend the rest of their lives in prison. If they were mentally old enough to do the terrible things they did, then they were mentally old enough to know the consequences if their actions.

I share your anger.

Originally posted by ImpyTimpy
Quoted from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2157880.stm



So if those two sick bastards kill someone else, does Lord Woolf go to jail with them? Or does he say oh, look at that chums, I was wrong.. So sorry... [/B]

He f**king ought to. None of us that doest mean the UK can be sure one of them is living withing close proximity to him, let alone how close or what they if they do work to children. Worse than that and this really rattles my cage neither showed remorse for what they did they had the pc'er saying oh but they're just children and they're tried inn an adult court, f**k right off, or F**ks sake they killed another child and brutalized him. Murder is murder they should be still be behind bars how the Pc'ers sleep at night is beyond me.:mad:

Originally posted by Reginald


These "children" who do this type of thing are different in my opinion. I dont care what all the do gooders say, these kids knew what they were doing. Your average 10 year old would just not be capable of these types of horrors under any pressure or influence. There must be something wrong in thier minds, since I dont believe their upbringing was in any way unusual.

It is my opinion, that the 2 who killed in the english case, should spend the rest of their lives in prison. If they were mentally old enough to do the terrible things they did, then they were mentally old enough to know the consequences if their actions.

I share your anger.

No they are not right in the head and this may sound funny but they have the same killer looks in their eyes as Manson, Bundy et al. That twat let them loose shold have left them to rot like hindly et al.


No child can kill there is something wrong there.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by ImpyTimpy
The question for me is, are we just hearing more about these brutal acts now that information is so readily available? Or is it the rise in new age parenting ideas which shun the 'old' evil ways of parenting?? Ideas like don't smack your kid, talk to them instead - or count to 10 :rolleyes:



i think it is lack of involvment more than the type of discipline, (although abusive discipline is no discipline either).

One of the bolger killers moved outside to live in a shed, and his parents didn't care less.

[Bentspoon]

1) This is not new. Children hav committed heinous acts throughout time. I know of no statistical evidence that says that it is on the increase. I don't have statistical evidence that it hasn't. I am just speaking agians the gut reaction here.

2) As far as the Brit case where the judge is being chastised on this forum: He spoke of the rights of criminals to be returned to society after they have served their crime. It implies that these two served their time. Are you all against that? What else can a judge do but adjudicate the law - if the law gives parameters for murderers to serve limited time (less than life) then they serve limited time

I personally think that murder and violent rape deserve life sentences without parole. I am also staunchly against offering criminals "deals". However, I must be content with the fact that the law doesn't agree with me. Presumably I am in the minority.

Too many times I have seen judges berated for upholding laws passed by the people.

At any rate, I doubt that kids are inherently more violent today than in the past (sorry no real statistics but I will look for them). I don't think that there is any "look in the eye" that you can point out (I always thought that Manson looked kinda happy-go-lucky with a twinkle in his eye.)

These anecdotes are so heinous that they seem to create a statistic of their own. There will always be wackos that shock us.

Anyway, I wish you would all keep your mouth shut until DOOM III comes out (I don't want it banned)

Bentspoon

[Tony]

execute the little ******!!

[Hellcat]

Originally posted by Bentspoon
1) This is not new. Children have committed heinous acts throughout time. I know of no statistical evidence that says that it is on the increase. I don't have statistical evidence that it hasn't. I am just speaking again the gut reaction here.

2) As far as the Brit case where the judge is being chastised on this forum: He spoke of the rights of criminals to be returned to society after they have served their crime. It implies that these two served their time. Are you all against that? What else can a judge do but adjudicate the law - if the law gives parameters for murderers to serve limited time (less than life) then they serve limited time

I personally think that murder and violent rape deserve life sentences without parole. I am also staunchly against offering criminals "deals". However, I must be content with the fact that the law doesn't agree with me. Presumably I am in the minority.

Too many times I have seen judges berated for upholding laws passed by the people.

At any rate, I doubt that kids are inherently more violent today than in the past (sorry no real statistics but I will look for them). I don't think that there is any "look in the eye" that you can point out (I always thought that Manson looked kinda happy-go-lucky with a twinkle in his eye.)

These anecdotes are so heinous that they seem to create a statistic of their own. There will always be wackos that shock us.

Anyway, I wish you would all keep your mouth shut until DOOM III comes out (I don't want it banned)

Bentspoon

Sorry to disagree but that particular facial trait that Bundy, West, Manson, Hindly et al do all share as with those 2 kid killers also have the same. It's not quite a similarity in features it is hard to describe but they all do share the same look in the eyes.

Again I disagree children today are far more aggressive than they have ever been. Although I could say that people attitudes for want of a better word have in general are also have changed there is none of that close community feel/camaraderie now it is each to their own.

Out of interest just how many know well their neighbors let alone the whole community? When was the last time you spoke to your neighbors?

Nobody disputes these psychotic children have been around for all time I suppose, but there is a rise maybe not a huge rush but it is creeping up, children that steal and commit robbery and I don't mean just sweets, beat up, mug, Mamie, rape, murder, torture, viciously bully etc. These are children 4 - 14yrs old that are doing this. Where friends of my parents used to live there was a gang of children 4 -9 yrs that terrorized the neighborhood, they were all vicious and out of control, together or separately they were psychotic, ok some of the parents ought to have been banned from having kids, but some of those kids parents were appalled when they learnt of it, their sweet child that at home was an angel was not. They beat up an oap, why just for fun they thought it funny to see her crying and screaming. There are case of similar tales of children like this allover the UK,(cant speak for the rest of the world) children with criminal records and restraining orders on them, children for Pete's sake.:mad: children that should be playing lego or Barbie's not inflicting pain on others.

Not all blame can be put on the parents raising either, some of these kids are from well to do homes, some are latch key kids, some middle class butter wouldn't melt in their mouths, they all share one thing psychotic behavior. In England we have fluoride pumped through our water, a known calmer down, what would happen if it was stopped? Hell I would hazard a guess.

Now I could ask is it the level of this change in attitude and behavior down to stress and the pressure of trying to not just live but survive in the world where money and material things are top priority?

The judge is not just being criticized it was the Europe court who allowed those murders loose, they served pitiful short sentence. They committed an adult crime, and believe me what they did to the child was not high jinxed behavior I saw the full list of what they did it was sickening, it was very cold and extremely calculating. they planned it and executed it and didn't think twice about it. Those same murders that never showed any sign of remorse for what they did, and they are somewhere walking around in a community having been pampered in prison and now protected under a new guise. Justice lol what justice.:mad:

Those 2 should have stayed where they were for life, I don't think for one moment they have been re-educated and are safe not for one moment.

[Badger]

Let's just back up a moment, here.

Sure, these two are sicko's. But I don't think you can paint all kids nowadays with the same brush. I believe Socrates had the same complaint a couple of thousands years ago, that is being voiced here about "kids now adays".

Harken back 150 years or so to the days of Oliver Twist. I don't see the gangs of that era as any different than the ones of present day. 75 years ago, my mom, 5 years old, was looking after her younger brothers and sisters, while her older brother (6 years old) helped my grandfather farm. It was the same for all the kids in the community.

I think the sweet little pig tailed girl in the pinafore, and the bright faced lad in the sailor suit were in the minority during those periods, as well as much of history.

My kids are 17, 15, and 9, and I know that the majority in their school friends and classmates tend more towards having happy childhoods than the violent gang behaviour characterized here by others. It's the bad apples that get the press. That's obvious. But I'd say kids today have more chance at the ideal of childhood than ever before.

[Ian Osborne]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
i think it is lack of involvment more than the type of discipline, (although abusive discipline is no discipline either).

One of the bolger killers moved outside to live in a shed, and his parents didn't care less.

Agreed. And they both increased their bodyweight by around 1/3rd while in custody on remand, purely by getting three square meals a day.

[Darat]

Originally posted by Biker Babe


Please don't go there, this make my blood boil, and just where are the little shites in their new identities living? What they did is beyond words what I feel about them no word can accurately describe. Some body somewhere is living near these killers unaware, where is the logic and justice in that?

The justice is quite clear. In the UK we have a legal system that determines the sentences for crimes no matter how heinous and also sets the criteria of release, if any, for various categories of crimes. If the killers of the boy in this case meet those criteria for release then they should be released. I do wonder the crime they committed whilst still children themselves is considered “worse” then other murders.

As far as I understand the primary test for being released by a parole board is the safety of society, not the criminals well-being(?). This may mean some criminals are never released because society will always be at "significant" risk from them despite all attempts at rehabilitation.

(The "punishment" side of sentences is of very little interest to me, that is not justice, what I am interested in is ensuring that the criminals do not repeat their crimes. I consider that we release too many criminals who have not been re-habilitated primarily because we do not focus on rehabilitation but "punishment" and "confinement".)

[iain]

Originally posted by Biker Babe


Please don't go there, this make my blood boil, and just where are the little shites in their new identities living? What they did is beyond words what I feel about them no word can accurately describe. Some body somewhere is living near these killers unaware, where is the logic and justice in that? Without getting into a debate on this one, I'd like to register my approval of the decision to release the Bulger killers. I think it was the right decision.

[Gregor]

I can't wait until Mike Moore makes his movie "Bowling for Baseball Bats" where he questions the responsibility of the parents and the kids and calls BS on the excuse of 'society is to blame'. <wishing I knew how to paste the eye-rolling smiley face>

[Hellcat]

Originally posted by iain
Without getting into a debate on this one, I'd like to register my approval of the decision to release the Bulger killers. I think it was the right decision.

:mad:

[Martin]

Originally posted by iain
Without getting into a debate on this one, I'd like to register my approval of the decision to release the Bulger killers. I think it was the right decision. I agree. I'm only a year or so older than them. Looking back to when they were convicted, it seems like a very long time.

[iain]

Originally posted by Hellcat


:mad: :rolleyes:

[Ladyhawk]

I don't know how anyone can honestly say that kids aren't more violent today than before. I'm sorry, but I don't recall ever hearing about some 10 year old beating a 3yr old to death with a bat when I grew up. I don't recall two teenagers coming into my high school and randomly blowing folks away! I grew up in one of the toughest cities in the country and never saw half the aggression and hatred that kids dole out now. Please understand, I'm not trying to paint all kids with the same brush...it simply seems that society is more permissive about sympathizing with and being patronizing towards young people who engage in violent behavior. I think several factors contribute. We have part-time new age parents who are having babies and throwing them in daycare right after they're born. Most kids I know couldn't come up with an imaginative game on their own if they had to! Movies, video games, music and television all de-sensitize kids to violence. I'm not saying that the media is the sole factor. I'm simply saying that we can't ignore the fact that kids are becoming more violent and we'd best take notice. This is the generation that's going to be caring for us one day.... (shudder, gag, shudder)

[iain]

Originally posted by Ladyhawk
I don't know how anyone can honestly say that kids aren't more violent today than before. I'm sorry, but I don't recall ever hearing about some 10 year old beating a 3yr old to death with a bat when I grew up. I don't recall two teenagers coming into my high school and randomly blowing folks away!But these events are still incredibly rare. A similar murder happened in the UK about ten years ago, then there was one 20 years before that. These are not common today.

One difference is that an event like this can happen anywhere in the world and now gets media coverage. I bet at least part of the difference is that we are exposed to more of these stories.

[dingler44]

But how did the 10 yr old get charged with possession of an illegal weapon? Does any object (ie baseball bat) become illegal once it has been used as a weapon? I don't get it.

[Ian Osborne]

Originally posted by dingler44
But how did the 10 yr old get charged with possession of an illegal weapon? Does any object (ie baseball bat) become illegal once it has been used as a weapon? I don't get it.

IANAL, but in the UK, it's illegal to carry anything around with the intent of using it as a weapon. Thus, a baseball bat would be legal unless it could be proved it was carried with the intention of using it as a weapon. Of course, if it has already been used as a weapon, the distinction is moot. I presume NJ has a similar statute...

Originally posted by iain
But these events are still incredibly rare. A similar murder happened in the UK about ten years ago, then there was one 20 years before that. These are not common today.

One difference is that an event like this can happen anywhere in the world and now gets media coverage. I bet at least part of the difference is that we are exposed to more of these stories.

Oh it so rare that the entire frequency of news that contain a child going into school and shooting anybody are made up, or a child in a gangwar blowing another child away etc, or a child killing an adult etc. :rolleyes:

[HarryKeogh]

ever wonder what a story like this does to us? it doesn't enrich our lives or teach us about world events that have a direct impact on us. it just brings someone's misery into our lives. why would we need to know this information? sadly, i see a headline like that and i read the story promptly as well. what does it say about people that we rush to hear the bad news before the good?are people basically miserable jerks? or do people just have a taste for the macabre? or maybe a self-hating thing is going on. "i shouldnt feel good with crap like this going on in the world"

[DrBenway]

Originally posted by HarryKeogh
ever wonder what a story like this does to us?
These stories provoke my curiosity. I try to think up explanations for why these boys did something that hardly any other children do. Maybe if I can understand this incident, I'll know how to prevent future incidents like this.

What stops people from hurting others? Fear of retribution is one factor. Empathy is another. Empathy is the more powerful factor, I believe, for most of us.

Most of us have a mechanism in our brains for modeling to ourselves the state of other minds. Part of that mechanism is a sympathetic emotion. We see a child crying by the side of the road with a dead kitten in his hands, and we feel a pang of sorrow, as if we ourselves had just lost a beloved pet.

We don't hurt others intentionally, because we know what it feels like to be hurt, and we don't want to cause that feeling. The golden rule is deeply logical to most human brains.

Brains are very complicated machines. Like any complex system with millions of parts, there are millions of ways for them to go wrong. The capacity for empathy depends upon lots of different parts of the brain and can easily be disrupted.

I would guess that the more dominant of the two boys has some brain deficits. The less dominant boy may have certain neuropsychiatric limitations as well.

[DrChinese]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


i think it is lack of involvment more than the type of discipline, (although abusive discipline is no discipline either).

One of the bolger killers moved outside to live in a shed, and his parents didn't care less.

I agree with you, Uni. They say Jeffrey Dahmer killed small animals as a child. Did his parents know? I would definitely tend to believe that a healthy relationship between parent and child - by whatever "theory" of discipline - is one of the most significant developmental needs.

The book is out on whether there is a specific method of disciplining children which is superior to all others. Experience tells me that children need a certain amount of structure and discipline, but too much can be more detrimental than too little.

Anyway, one cannot extrapolate from a specific case to reach a conclusion which justifies a particular stance. For example, was the father a Democrat - or a Catholic - etc. You cannot even say something like - "because kids are raised more liberally today with less discipline" - unless a cause and effect relationship is established.





At any rate, the story is very sad. Any time a child is hurt by violence, we lose something special.

[EvilYeti]

A few salient points.

1. There are a great many people in the world (on the order of billions). If you focus on the most heinous acts of a few individuals it will greatly skew your world view.

2. Trying to look for "environmental causes" in such cases is a fools game in my opinion. My personal take is such individuals have some mental defect that causes poor impulse control, extremely aggressive behavior, etc. Its only a matter of time before something sets them off.

Originally posted by clk
10-year-old Arrested in Death of 3-Year-Old (http://www.nynewsday.com/news/nyc-kid0328,0,7638383.story?coll=nyc-topnews-short-navigation)


Your world is very sad......you CLK told bullsh*t about my little son on the banter. Do you remeber it sad poster???

[clk]

Originally posted by latinijral



Your world is very sad......you CLK told bullsh*t about my little son on the banter. Do you remeber it sad poster???

Do you remember the bullsh*t you posted about Randi?

[iain]

Originally posted by Biker Babe


Oh it so rare that the entire frequency of news that contain a child going into school and shooting anybody are made up, or a child in a gangwar blowing another child away etc, or a child killing an adult etc. :rolleyes: True, but now you are talking about events that happen anywhere in the world. How many of these would you have heard about in the past, without the internet etc.

How do you know that events like this didn't happen the past - maybe you just don't recall hearing about them, or they weren't reported in the newspapers you read, the radio you listened to or on the TV you watched.

Originally posted by clk


Do you remember the bullsh*t you posted about Randi?

Is Randi a kid or your son?