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Yahweh
18th December 2004, 10:10 PM
I have not seen this proof or anything like it before, so I feel special for having come up with something like this all on my own :) (I dont care if others have thought of it before me, I still feel special.)

I'm not exactly sure how to put this into "proof" form, so I am choosing to put it in the form of a dialogue.

Yahweh: Who created God?

Theist: He doesnt need a creator.

Yahweh: I suppose that was a poorly phrased question, I should have probably asked "where did God come from".

Theist: Then I would have answered "God has always existed".

Yahweh: It isnt obvious to me why that is.

Theist: Because God created time. Ergo, God exists outside of time. Ergo, God has always existed.

Yahweh: So God exists outside of time, I suppose that means God cant be omnipresent (existing across all space and time) can he?

Theist: This is a common lingual issue. It's more accurate to say God exists independent of time and space. He is neither constraint by nor necessarily seperated from time or space, and can thus be both preceding and outlasting time while being omnipresented within time-constrained space.

Yahweh: Alright, so you mean to say that omnipresence is not a necessary property of God, but rather a contingent property.

Theist: Can you expand on that?

Yahweh: Sure. All I have to ask is "was God omnipresent (existing across all space and time) before he created space and time", and hence omnipresence cannot be a necessary property of God.

Theist: Interesting thought.

Yahweh: Indeed, and an interesting non-traditional interpretation of God. I dont think its logically possible for God to exist outside of time.

Theist: How so?

Yahweh: Because it is impossible for actions which "follow" one another without reference to time. Hence, the logical impossibility of a creator who exists outside of time.

Theist: Hmmmm...

Riddick
18th December 2004, 10:17 PM
i'm not so sure god exists outside of time. anybody have the final word on that?

i think yesterday is forever lost. history.

and yahweh was a fact yesterday. sometime in the future, she will be legend, maybe. further out on the timeline, she will become myth, perhaps.

it seems that time is not kind to us, in several ways.

Yahweh
18th December 2004, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by Riddick
and yahweh was a fact yesterday. sometime in the future, she will be legend, maybe. further out on the timeline, she will become myth, perhaps.
Welcome to my sig line :)

Note: Quote edited slightly for capitalization.

Z
18th December 2004, 10:31 PM
It always has struck me as odd when people say, "Before time began...". Any event which occurs would signify the start of time, period.

I think that's solid, Yahweh - good going.

csense
18th December 2004, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by Yahweh

Yahweh: Sure. All I have to ask is "was God omnipresent (existing across all space and time) before he created space and time", and hence omnipresence cannot be a necessary property of God.


If the Universe, including time and space, is a contingent property of God, then so also is omnipresence and ommipotence.

No contradiction

Iacchus
19th December 2004, 07:18 AM
If time and space come together in the here and now, which is the moment, then the moment must be inclusive of time and space ... for the moment is here, there and everywhere, all at once. Therefore, if the moment is all-inclusive, shouldn't it also exist outside of time and space? ... as well as within?

Z
19th December 2004, 07:28 AM
Originally posted by Iacchus
If time and space come together in the here and now, which is the momet, then the moment must be inclusive of time and space ... for the moment is here, there and everywhere, all at once. Therefore, if the moment is all-inclusive, shouldn't it also exist outside of time and space? ... as well as within?

Bless you.

Oops, ya got a boogie on your chin, there, Iacchus.

BROKEN DOWN FOR LOGIC ANALYSIS:

If spacetime exists (CONCEPT: HERE AND NOW = THE MOMENT; BY MEANING - PRESENT SPACE-TIME COORDINATE? DEFINITION UNCLEAR - REMOVING UNDEFINED STATEMENT)... missing expression... followed by further undefined statement... followed by gibberish about relationship of undefined statement to spacetime...

Nope - nothing of content. Typical Iacchus post.

Iacchus
19th December 2004, 07:37 AM
The moment is not contingent upon time and space, it is Eternity. This is what we had before time and space.

Cosmo
19th December 2004, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by Iacchus
The moment is not contingent upon time and space, it is Eternity. This is what we had before time and space.

The concept of something being "before" time and space is logically bankrupt. It almost hurts my brain to think about it. It doesn't work, Iacchus - try harder.

kuroyume0161
19th December 2004, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by Iacchus
The moment is not contingent upon time and space, it is Eternity. This is what we had before time and space.

Time and space are attributes of our universe. We cannot make attributions to before or after the universe since there can be no (absolutely NO) knowledge of them. Since Eternity implies time, how can it be before the universe?

Robert

Iacchus
19th December 2004, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by kuroyume0161

Time and space are attributes of our universe. We cannot make attributions to before or after the universe since there can be no (absolutely NO) knowledge of them. Since Eternity implies time, how can it be before the universe?

Robert And if the Universe were in a state of non-physicalness and had no beginning? With respect to the God which created it and is Eternal?

kuroyume0161
20th December 2004, 08:05 AM
Originally posted by Iacchus
And if the Universe were in a state of non-physicalness and had no beginning? With respect to the God which created it and is Eternal?

How could the universe have no beginning and yet have been created (an even that requires a beginning)?

Robert

Correa Neto
20th December 2004, 08:26 AM
Originally posted by Iacchus
The moment is not contingent upon time and space, it is Eternity. This is what we had before time and space.

Am I the only one who thinks this is just a pile of word stuck togheter to pose as having some sense?

Looks nice and wise for woos, but when one tries to find any real meaning...

Z
20th December 2004, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by Correa Neto
Am I the only one who thinks this is just a pile of word stuck togheter to pose as having some sense?

Looks nice and wise for woos, but when one tries to find any real meaning...

I'm beginning to think that Iacchus has the world's most complete collection of fortune cookie sayings, fortune-teller-machine outputs, and ouija board readings.

BTW

My ouija board responded to "What is Iacchus?" with the letters "I-D-O-I-T-D-O-R-Q-F-V-L-yes-no-?" Think there's anything to this? :D

Correa Neto
20th December 2004, 08:35 AM
That´s the type of sentence you also see coming out of many politician´s mouths...

Meaningless mumble-jumbo arranged to pass as something usefull.

Tricky
20th December 2004, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by Correa Neto
That´s the type of sentence you also see coming out of many politician´s mouths...

Meaningless mumble-jumbo arranged to pass as something usefull.
Compared to Iacchus, politicians are models of lucidity. There is no Rosetta Stone that can decipher the stream of gibberish that he emits.

Beleth
20th December 2004, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by Yahweh
Yahweh: Sure. All I have to ask is "was God omnipresent (existing across all space and time) before he created space and time", and hence omnipresence cannot be a necessary property of God.

Theist: Interesting thought.If space and time didn't exist, how could God exist across it? I don't see how this question makes any sense. Is there asphalt covering the highway between Los Angeles and Honolulu?

Yahweh: Indeed, and an interesting non-traditional interpretation of God. I dont think its logically possible for God to exist outside of time.

Theist: How so?

Yahweh: Because it is impossible for actions which "follow" one another without reference to time. Hence, the logical impossibility of a creator who exists outside of time.

Theist: Hmmmm... To paraphrase Rumsfeld, we use the words we have, not the words we want. A state of being unaffected by time is not something that we, as 3-dimensional time-bound entities, have any real way of describing. So we're going to use ill-fitting words like "before" to describe the state of God before He created the universe, simply because we don't have better words.

We're Flatlanders living on a finite plane, and we're trying to describe 3-dimensional space without having any knowledge of the word "up".

Wudang
20th December 2004, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by Yahweh

Yahweh: Sure. All I have to ask is "was God omnipresent (existing across all space and time) before he created space and time"

The question assumes that the word "before" makes sense in that context, which it doesn't. Sorry.

Iacchus
20th December 2004, 06:58 PM
Excerpt from Joseph Campbell's, The Power of Myth (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-search?search-type=ss&tag=dionysusforum-20&keyword=0385418868&mode=books) ...


The vision of Black Elk ...

He says, "I saw myself on the central mountain of the world, the highest place, and I had a vision because I was seeing in the sacred manner of the world." And the sacred central mountain was Harney Peak in South Dakota. And then he says, "But the central mountain is everywhere."

That is a real mythological realization. It distinguishes between the local cult image, Harney Peak, and its connotation as the center of the world. The center of the world is the axis mundi, the central point, the pole around which all revolves. The central point of the world is the point where stillness and movement are together. Movement is time, but stillness is eternity. Realizing how this moment of your life is actually a moment of eternity, and experiencing the eternal aspect of what you're doing in the temporal experience -- this is the mythological experience.

Iacchus
20th December 2004, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by Tricky

Compared to Iacchus, politicians are models of lucidity. There is no Rosetta Stone that can decipher the stream of gibberish that he emits. Where have you been hanging out lately Tricky? Haven't heard too much from you lately? :p

neutrino_cannon
20th December 2004, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by Tricky
Compared to Iacchus, politicians are models of lucidity. There is no Rosetta Stone that can decipher the stream of gibberish that he emits.

You can't compare zero with an imaginary number.

Suggestologist
20th December 2004, 09:34 PM
Originally posted by Yahweh
I have not seen this proof or anything like it before, so I feel special for having come up with something like this all on my own :) (I dont care if others have thought of it before me, I still feel special.)

I'm not exactly sure how to put this into "proof" form, so I am choosing to put it in the form of a dialogue.

Yahweh: Who created God?

Theist: He doesnt need a creator.

Yahweh: I suppose that was a poorly phrased question, I should have probably asked "where did God come from".

Theist: Then I would have answered "God has always existed".

Yahweh: It isnt obvious to me why that is.

Theist: Because God created time. Ergo, God exists outside of time. Ergo, God has always existed.

Yahweh: So God exists outside of time, I suppose that means God cant be omnipresent (existing across all space and time) can he?

Theist: This is a common lingual issue. It's more accurate to say God exists independent of time and space. He is neither constraint by nor necessarily seperated from time or space, and can thus be both preceding and outlasting time while being omnipresented within time-constrained space.

Yahweh: Alright, so you mean to say that omnipresence is not a necessary property of God, but rather a contingent property.

Theist: Can you expand on that?

Yahweh: Sure. All I have to ask is "was God omnipresent (existing across all space and time) before he created space and time", and hence omnipresence cannot be a necessary property of God.

Theist: Interesting thought.

Yahweh: Indeed, and an interesting non-traditional interpretation of God. I dont think its logically possible for God to exist outside of time.

Theist: How so?

Yahweh: Because it is impossible for actions which "follow" one another without reference to time. Hence, the logical impossibility of a creator who exists outside of time.

Theist: Hmmmm...

The guy who runs ReasonsToBelieve www.reasons.org I think; conceives of God as having 8 or 9 dimensions, I'm not sure exactly how many. As long as we only have 3 space and 1 time dimension; you're "proof" works; but add dimensions of space and dimensions of time and it fails.

Dorian Gray
20th December 2004, 11:33 PM
Yahweh actually exists in 15 dimensions, so she knows what she is talking about, you fool.

SkepticalScience
21st December 2004, 01:09 PM
Seems pretty good Yahweh.

Though - it does make me think about something. . .

So current science says that the Big Bang is the start of both space and time.

But why COULDN'T there be something earlier than the big bang?

If there could be something earlier than the big bang, couldn't a religious person just say, "well, god created the big bang. that caused time as we perceive it to begin , but there is also magic god time that extends before the big bang"

or something like that. . .

kuroyume0161
21st December 2004, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by SkepticalScience
Seems pretty good Yahweh.

Though - it does make me think about something. . .

So current science says that the Big Bang is the start of both space and time.

But why COULDN'T there be something earlier than the big bang?

If there could be something earlier than the big bang, couldn't a religious person just say, "well, god created the big bang. that caused time as we perceive it to begin , but there is also magic god time that extends before the big bang"

or something like that. . .

This claim could be made if one limits the definition of time and space to this universe. Then there are no caveats to the claim.

But, there is still the epistemological problem. We cannot possibly have any knowledge of what happened (in big quotes here) "before" the Big Bang. Therefore, all claims concerning before or outside of this universe are identical: assumptions on faith. Argumentum ad ignorantium.

So, let the religious person spout such claims as if they have clinched science by the genitalia. In all actuality, they are just making more irrational faith-based claims. Don't forget to tell them that! ;)

Robert

sorgoth
22nd December 2004, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by csense
If the Universe, including time and space, is a contingent property of God, then so also is omnipresence and ommipotence.

No contradiction


I'll go a bit further with this, I think.

You see, it's only a contradiction if space and time are something other than God. If the theist claims that God is Everything + Something Else, then there's not really any contradiction at all, is there?

Since our concepts of Space and Time would really only be a part of God, therefore He would not need time as we know of it to create anything, it already existed inside of Him.

Kitty Chan
22nd December 2004, 05:54 PM
We have yesterday, today and tommorow. We move through time.

God has now. He has no yesterday or tommorow. He does not move through time.

maybe that will help.

sorgoth
22nd December 2004, 09:25 PM
Has God told you this?

Yahweh
22nd December 2004, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by csense
If the Universe, including time and space, is a contingent property of God, then so also is omnipresence and ommipotence.

No contradiction
Yes, you are correct. Presently, I dont know of what would disprove contingent devine properties, however I am reminded of an excerpt from Atheism.About.com - Why are you an atheist? (http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/ath/blathq_whyi.htm):
... I could continue to strip away from God attributes which I could not justify, but the further that went, the more empty the concept of God would become. What's the point of believing in an empty and meaningless God? I could try ascribing attributes to God which seemed reasonable and which might evade the arguments against the existence of God - and indeed I did just that. However, in retrospect I found that those were simply the attributes which I personally valued. I was doing nothing different from what theologians and religious leaders had done for millennia, assuming that if God existed, then God must value the same things I valued. What made me right and them wrong?

Nothing. Nothing at all.

Granted, it was possible that I could be right - but there was no reason to think that I was. I could pick attributes out of a hat and stand just as much chance of success. The fact of the matter is, I was desperately trying to salvage my personal faith in God by taking away from the concept all of the attributes I didn't like and fill the concept with attributes I did like. There was no reason for this except to salvage faith. There was no reason for the attributes, except that I liked them - and this meant that there was simply no basis for me to argue that this new God, created in my own image, was any more reasonable and any more likely to exist than any of the god-concepts I had rejected.

Originally posted by zaayrdragon
Originally posted by Iacchus
If time and space come together in the here and now, which is the momet, then the moment must be inclusive of time and space ... for the moment is here, there and everywhere, all at once. Therefore, if the moment is all-inclusive, shouldn't it also exist outside of time and space? ... as well as within?

Bless you.

Oops, ya got a boogie on your chin, there, Iacchus.

BROKEN DOWN FOR LOGIC ANALYSIS:

If spacetime exists (CONCEPT: HERE AND NOW = THE MOMENT; BY MEANING - PRESENT SPACE-TIME COORDINATE? DEFINITION UNCLEAR - REMOVING UNDEFINED STATEMENT)... missing expression... followed by further undefined statement... followed by gibberish about relationship of undefined statement to spacetime...

Nope - nothing of content. Typical Iacchus post.
Translation: Iacchus is saying that "creation" is timeless - whatever that could mean.

Originally posted by Beleth
If space and time didn't exist, how could God exist across it? I don't see how this question makes any sense. Is there asphalt covering the highway between Los Angeles and Honolulu?
The question isnt supposed to make sense, and for that reason it highlights the problem of necessary omnipresence.

Originally posted by Wudang
The question assumes that the word "before" makes sense in that context, which it doesn't. Sorry.
Yes, I admit I was at a loss with words in the final few lines of my spontaneous prose. Is there any way of rephrasing the same thought with more coherent words?

Originally posted by Suggestologist
The guy who runs ReasonsToBelieve www.reasons.org I think; conceives of God as having 8 or 9 dimensions, I'm not sure exactly how many. As long as we only have 3 space and 1 time dimension; you're "proof" works; but add dimensions of space and dimensions of time and it fails.
It isnt obvious to me why it fails. Didnt God exist before (for lack of better words) all these other spatial and temporal dimensions?

Originally posted by SkepticalScience
Seems pretty good Yahweh.

Though - it does make me think about something. . .

So current science says that the Big Bang is the start of both space and time.

But why COULDN'T there be something earlier than the big bang?

If there could be something earlier than the big bang, couldn't a religious person just say, "well, god created the big bang. that caused time as we perceive it to begin , but there is also magic god time that extends before the big bang"

or something like that. . .
There is a common misconception that the universe exists in some point in space at a certain era in time... however, the opposite is true: time and space exist inside the universe. Hence, the big bang represents Time=0.

You cant have Time<0 - or time before there was time - for the same reasons you cant have a triangle with sides measuring 0 units or smaller.

Originally posted by sorgoth
I'll go a bit further with this, I think.

You see, it's only a contradiction if space and time are something other than God. If the theist claims that God is Everything + Something Else, then there's not really any contradiction at all, is there?

Since our concepts of Space and Time would really only be a part of God, therefore He would not need time as we know of it to create anything, it already existed inside of Him.
Is that another way of saying that time is... timeless? I'm afraid I dont know exactly what you mean.

(Please take no offense that I more readily understand Iacchus posts than your ;) )

T'ai Chi
23rd December 2004, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by kuroyume0161

We cannot possibly have any knowledge of what happened (in big quotes here) "before" the Big Bang.

Where is the journal article that rules out a "before" before the Big Bang?

kuroyume0161
23rd December 2004, 03:50 AM
Originally posted by jzs
Where is the journal article that rules out a "before" before the Big Bang?

I don't know exactly, but it does seem contradictory according to the current state of cosmology, quantum physics, and relativity.

When one discusses the "Big Bang", we're not exactly talking about a specific event in time. Check out these articles:

Paul Davies: What Happened Before the Big Bang? (http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/big-bang.html)

Dr. Michio Kaku: What Happened Before the Big Bang? (http://home.flash.net/~csmith0/bigbang.htm)

These are not technical articles and they are not based upon rigid theoretic bases, but this is the growing concensus.

Hey, this is the best answer that anyone can give. No, it isn't ruled out completely. But it also doesn't seem to be in a favorable position either.

Again, theorizing outside the bounds of observation (direct or indirect) is bad science.

Robert

Suggestologist
23rd December 2004, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by Yahweh
It isnt obvious to me why it fails. Didnt God exist before (for lack of better words) all these other spatial and temporal dimensions?

I think an answer might be that our space and time did not exist before -- on a different causal dimesion - dimension of time -- some deity or other created our space and time. But I could be wrong about the clarification the ReasonsToBelieve guy might offer.

Kitty Chan
23rd December 2004, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by Kitty Chan
We have yesterday, today and tommorow. We move through time.

God has now. He has no yesterday or tommorow. He does not move through time.

maybe that will help.

sorgoth said; Has God told you this?

Actually He did :)

Hbr 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

We live and die, we mark our time with this, our days are numbered. There is a limited time we have on earth.

Jesus has no such limits. This is why He said I Am the beginning and the end. He holds power over death because He conquered it. No one else can bring themselves back from death.

(Although someday someone may appear to, dont believe it ;) its a one time event only Jesus was worthy of)

He is the same yesterday, today and in the future. This is why I said He lives in now (the same right?).

We live in time.