Please read my post before answering.

[Upchurch]

As of the moment you answer the poll, how would you vote in the next presidential election?

Please, US citizens of voting age only. I already know most of the world is upset with us and, for the most part, hate Bush, I don't think there is any need to re-emphesise that. I'm interested in what the actual stance of Americans are.

edited to add: Well, the actual stance of Americans on this board. I realize this isn't a good sampling of ALL Americans.

[Upchurch]

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to squash all debate about the subject. I haven't voted in the above poll yet, so feel free to argue and bicker on one side or the other.

The thread is open to anyone, American or otherwise. I just wanted the poll to be for Americans.

Edited to add:

For those of you who voted either definitely for or definitely against Bush, why and what do you consider to be your party affiliation?

Assuming George Bush will win the nomination of the Republican Party for President again, I will vote for him.

I am a Republican. I voted Democrat one time and lived to regret it.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by LukeT
Assuming George Bush will win the nomination of the Republican Party for President again I didn't realize there was that possibility, or was that sarcasm?

[Supercharts]

I will always vote Republican. If it's Bush he get's my vote. I just pray to Ed_God that Al Sharpton screws up the Democratic Party to the point he gets a place on their ticket as V.P.

[Jedi Knight]

Bush!! Bush!!! 10 more years!!!!!!!!!

JK

Originally posted by Upchurch
I didn't realize there was that possibility, or was that sarcasm?

No, no sarcasm. There will be other Republican candidates in the 2004 race. Their chances of getting the nomination are slim to none, but real nonetheless.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by LukeT
Their chances of getting the nomination are slim to none, but real nonetheless. Okay, gotcha. I should have said that I didn't think it was possible from a pragmatic stand point. I knew it was technically possible.

I remember thinking after the last election (finally) ended that there was no way Bush would get re-elected for a second term after an election that close. First, he nearly lost to Gore. If the Democrats manage to find a canadate with a little personality, Bush would be doomed. Second, the first year or so after the election Bush was made out to be almost another Dan Qualye in terms of sheer number of poor wording choices.

Now, however, the 9/11 attacks and the current war in Iraq has changed everything, so I'm not so sure anymore. Based on the poll so far, assuming all of the undecideds swing to Bush's side, he's got almost a 50/50 chance. I guess I'm still guessing he's going to lose, but he's got a better chance now than I would have imagined for most of 2001.

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

As far as I understand it Americans do not vote for their President in the sense of: mark an x beside the name of the candidate you choose for president.

If I am wrong please correct me. I am no expert on elections in th US.

It seems to me that the choice comes in the form of becoming a party member and voting for a nominee pairing of Pres and VP.

[dsm]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight

Bush!! Bush!!! 10 more years!!!!!!!!!


Why don't you cut out the middleman and vote for a ticket of Cheney/Rumsfeld? I'm sure they wouldn't have wasted so much time in getting us into a war with Iraq.

:p

[Denise]

I will vote for Bush if he gets the Republican nomination. I'm not so sure he will run again. I'm saying this if the election is held today, who knows what kind of scandals might come up to change my mind in the future.

[Denise]

Originally posted by PygmyPlaidGiraffe
As far as I understand it Americans do not vote for their President in the sense of: mark an x beside the name of the candidate you choose for president.

If I am wrong please correct me. I am no expert on elections in th US.

It seems to me that the choice comes in the form of becoming a party member and voting for a nominee pairing of Pres and VP.

Actually you can write in any name you want. Mickey Mouse always gets a few votes. The votes are tallied and go to the electoral college who actually cast the votes for president.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by PygmyPlaidGiraffe
As far as I understand it Americans do not vote for their President in the sense of: mark an x beside the name of the candidate you choose for president.
In the actual voting itself, that's exactly how it works. As Denise said, there is then an electorial college process involved, but that's the short answer.
It seems to me that the choice comes in the form of becoming a party member and voting for a nominee pairing of Pres and VP. One has the option of voting a straight ticket (i.e. voting for all Republican canidates or all Democrat canidates or some of the smaller parties), but you don't have to. I, myself, don't belong to either party and vote for each official based on what I know of them. If I don't know much about the candidates involved, I usually try to balance out the Republican/Democrat ratio on my ballot.

(Aside: having a single party in charge of the executive branch, the House of Representatives and the Senate makes me nervious, no matter what party it is.)

I know some people who do consider themselves aligned with a party who will occasionally vote outside their party for various reasons.

[dsm]

Originally posted by Denise

Actually you can write in any name you want. Mickey Mouse always gets a few votes. The votes are tallied and go to the electoral college who actually cast the votes for president.


Which explains why Bush lost the popular vote and was still elected. :rolleyes:

[Upchurch]

Hey with all the people putting down "Jedi" as their religion in censuses (sp?), I wonder if we could get Obi-Won elected to president?

True, he's not an American citizen, he's fictional and he's dead, but never underestimate the power of the Force...

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Explain electoral college for me. In Canada we have a vague resemblance to a form of Rep by Pop so this is foreign to me...

Is it assumed that individuals on the electoral college are honost?

What checks and ballances are there at this point?

[Wolverine]

Click here. (http://www.archives.gov/federal_register/electoral_college/electoral_college.html)

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Gore got more of the popular vote:

http://www.archives.gov/federal_register/electoral_college/scores2.html#2000

looks like you got good voter turn out. You must have a very highly educated public that get all the facts and consider all the facts before making a choice.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by PygmyPlaidGiraffe
Gore got more of the popular vote:

http://www.archives.gov/federal_register/electoral_college/scores2.html#2000
Yeah, that's the rub. See, each state gets so many electorial votes. The state casts those votes for the candidate that wins the popular vote in that state. So, if a candidate gets all the votes in one state and only marginally wins another, s/he still gets all the electorial votes for both states. It doesn't matter by how much s/he wins it by. So, it is entirely possible for a candidate to win the popular election and loose the electorial vote. It's happened before now, I'm sure, but I don't remember when.

Occasionally there is a movement to remove the electorial college and just use popular vote, but the electorial college is the only way to keep all of the US involved. Otherwise, candidates would only campaign on the coasts and in major cities.

[Wolverine]

Allow me :) :

1824: John Quincy Adams received more than 38,000 fewer votes than Andrew Jackson, but neither candidate won a majority of the Electoral College. Adams was awarded the presidency when the election was thrown to the House of Representatives.

1876: Nearly unanimous support from small states gave Rutherford B. Hayes a one-vote margin in the Electoral College, despite the fact that he lost the popular vote to Samuel J. Tilden by 264,000 votes. Hayes carried five out of the six smallest states (excluding Delaware). These five states plus Colorado gave Hayes 22 electoral votes with only 109,000 popular votes. At the time, Colorado had been just been admitted to the Union and decided to appoint electors instead of holding elections. So, Hayes won Colorado's three electoral votes with zero popular votes. It was the only time in U.S. history that small state support has decided an election.

1888: Benjamin Harrison lost the popular vote by 95,713 votes to Grover Cleveland, but won the electoral vote by 65. In this instance, some say the Electoral College worked the way it is designed to work by preventing a candidate from winning an election based on support from one region of the country. The South overwhelmingly supported Cleveland, and he won by more than 425,000 votes in six southern states. However, in the rest of the country he lost by more than 300,000 votes.

Source. (http://people.howstuffworks.com/question472.htm)

[arcticpenguin]

Chances are pretty strong I will vote for someone other than Bush, so I picked that. Of course it will depend to some extent on who the other choices are.

I am a centrist, so the 2-party primary system works against me, the democratic candidate may be too far to the left for my liking, but I already know that Bush is WAY too far to the right.

[swellman]

Originally posted by Upchurch

...
Otherwise, candidates would only campaign on the coasts and in major cities.

They do that anyway. Population drives the number of electoral college votes, so the candidates go where the people are.

The charming side effect of the electoral college system is its potential to discourage the popular vote for the minority party in a state. Here in the People's Republic of Massachusetts, which has gone Democrat in all recent presidential elections, it is a "waste of a vote" to vote Republican. Same is true for Democrats in conservative states. Saying that Gore won the popular vote but lost the election in 2000 is true, but it doesn't necessarily follow that Gore would have won if the campaign and election had been run strictly on the popular vote. Quite possible, but not a given.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Wolverine
Allow me :) :
Thanks, Wolvie.

It's only been about four hours, but it looks like if the election were held today (and only the people on this board voted), Bush wouldn't be re-elected. I guess it really isn't just world opinion after all.

Somehow, I find that a little unsettling.

[Tmy]

Party designations should be removed from the ballots. Its just a way for the 2 major parties to retain power.

No I wont vote for Bush. (I didnt vote for Gore either). Even without the war, I still have issues wh the Bush administration.

[Nasarius]

Originally posted by Upchurch
It's only been about four hours, but it looks like if the election were held today (and only the people on this board voted), Bush wouldn't be re-elected. I guess it really isn't just world opinion after all.

Maybe, maybe not. There are a disproportionate number of Libertarians on this board.

[ZeeGerman]

Originally posted by Nasarius


Maybe, maybe not. There are a disproportionate number of Libertarians on this board.

Disproportionate compared to what? I mean, how do you know?

Und wieso kennst Du die Toten Hosen? :D

Zee

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Yay! I now feel part of the JREF Forum, I have just been called a moron! :)

Well thats why I am here, to learn, and banter back and forth and read differing points of view.

On ward with my learning so I can reduce my moronic tendancies.

:D

[Thumper]

The reason for the electoral college comes from the fact that we are faithful to our federal style of government. In a federal government, the states have rights as separate entities. Our House of Representatives is the People's chamber, and our Senate is the States' chamber.

Two cents from Tennessee

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by dsm


Which explains why Bush lost the popular vote and was still elected. :rolleyes:

Gosh, if only Gore won his own home state. :rolleyes:

JK

[dsm]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight

Gosh, if only Gore won his own home state. :rolleyes:


Yeah -- ashame he didn't have a brother. :rolleyes:

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by dsm


Yeah -- ashame he didn't have a brother. :rolleyes:

Yeah, the people of his own home state probably still wouldn't have voted for him. :rolleyes:

JK

Originally posted by PygmyPlaidGiraffe
As far as I understand it Americans do not vote for their President in the sense of: mark an x beside the name of the candidate you choose for president.

If I am wrong please correct me. I am no expert on elections in th US.

It seems to me that the choice comes in the form of becoming a party member and voting for a nominee pairing of Pres and VP.

It doesn't matter what party we belong to. We can vote for whatever candidates of whatever party we desire.

We vote for President and Vice President separately.

As for the electoral college, each state has a certain number of electoral votes assigned based on population. The more people in a state, the more electoral votes a candidate wins when he wins the majority of votes in that state.

The number of electoral votes is equal to the number of members of Congress.

[dsm]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight

Yeah, the people of his own home state probably still wouldn't have voted for him. :rolleyes:


As Bush(s) demonstrated in Florida, the vote of the people doesn't matter. :rolleyes:

[dsm]

Originally posted by LukeT

As for the electoral college, each state has a certain number of electoral votes assigned based on population. The more people in a state, the more electoral votes a candidate wins when he wins the majority of votes in that state.


Not all states require that their electoral college members vote according to the popular majority of the state.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by dsm


As Bush(s) demonstrated in Florida, the vote of the people doesn't matter. :rolleyes:

It never did..the only thing that matters in presidential elections is the electoral college.

JK

While agreement with the major points of the platform is crucial, I necessarily vote for the person whom I feel is the most intelligent candidate.

Obviously, that ain't our man in the WH.

[specious_reasons]

Originally posted by LukeT


It doesn't matter what party we belong to. We can vote for whatever candidates of whatever party we desire.

We vote for President and Vice President separately.

As for the electoral college, each state has a certain number of electoral votes assigned based on population. The more people in a state, the more electoral votes a candidate wins when he wins the majority of votes in that state.

The number of electoral votes is equal to the number of members of Congress.

I have never voted in an election where I vote for the President and Vice President separately. I thought there was a Constitutional process that mandated they were elected together, but a cursory search didn't reveal it.

I also thought every state had one elector for every congressman and senator.

Every state has election laws to determine the way in which electors should vote.

I won't vote for Bush. I'd vote Libertarian over Bush (no offense intended to the Libertarians out there.)

[swellman]

I thought all states did require their electors to follow the popular vote, but according to this source (http://www.archives.gov/federal_register/electoral_college/laws_2000.html#top), 24 states do not, and the Virginia law may be advisory.

Still, in almost all elections, the principle of electors following the popular vote has been followed. More on that here (http://www.avagara.com/e_c/).

[Thumper]

Nope, not all states require the electors to vote the way they say. In recent memory (yours, not mine), the last time we had a rogue elector was in the 1976 election when one elector (I don't recall from where) cast a vote for Ronald Reagan instead of Gerald Ford. It didn't cause any change in the final outcome, but he was reprimanded by the state Republican party.

Originally, the electors had two votes to cast, one for pres and one for vp. However, electors began casting their two votes for the same person (which was totally legal). This created truly divided governments where the president and the vp were of different parties. The Twelth Amendment fixed that. Now, the electors cast one vote for a president-vp combination.

Still, we elect the electors, not the pres/vp. And not all states require electors to vote as they say they will. There are, however, checks built into the system so that the outcome is not seriously questioned.

[Thumper]

Oops. I forgot the Bentsen defection in 88. =)

[crocodile deathroll]

Well I am not voting for George Bush for the simple reason I am an Australian citizen.
I am not voting for his little "ass-licker" Yankee Poodle Jonny Howard either

[dsm]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight

It never did..the only thing that matters in presidential elections is the electoral college.


Or a well-balanced Supreme Court. :rolleyes:

http://www.iknowwhatyoudidlastelection.com/bush-supreme-court.htm

[Peach Jr.]

I didn't vote for Bush the first time, and I won't vote for him the second time either. Not that one's vote matters here (as we have seen in 2000).

No, I'm not a Republican or a Democrat.

[Peach Jr.]

I didn't vote for Bush the first time, and I won't vote for him the second time either. Not that one's vote matters here (as we have seen in 2000).

No, I'm not a Republican or a Democrat.

[shanek]

Originally posted by Upchurch
For those of you who voted either definitely for or definitely against Bush, why and what do you consider to be your party affiliation?

Because everything Bush has done in office has resulted in an abrogation of our liberty. I'm a Libertarian.

[shanek]

Originally posted by PygmyPlaidGiraffe
As far as I understand it Americans do not vote for their President in the sense of: mark an x beside the name of the candidate you choose for president.

If I am wrong please correct me. I am no expert on elections in th US.

It seems to me that the choice comes in the form of becoming a party member and voting for a nominee pairing of Pres and VP.

You don't have to join a party. You can be unaffiliated. You do need to be a registered voter.

You can put your mark next to any Pres/VP pair you want, but you aren't actually voting for them. You're voting for electors, and whoever is elected joins the Electoral College. They're the ones that actually elect the President.

[shanek]

Originally posted by Denise
Actually you can write in any name you want.

Whether or not they're actually counted is another matter. Many Greens in NC wrote in Ralph Nader (because the State of NC doesn't recognize the Green Party) and these votes were completely ignored and uncounted.

[shanek]

Originally posted by PygmyPlaidGiraffe
Explain electoral college for me. In Canada we have a vague resemblance to a form of Rep by Pop so this is foreign to me...

It was deemed a much better option than having Congress elect the President. But if you elect the President solely by popular vote, then only a few major cities will decide the election.

[dsm]

Originally posted by Peach Jr.
I didn't vote for Bush the first time, and I won't vote for him the second time either. Not that one's vote matters here (as we have seen in 2000).


Well, 2000 actually showed us how much one vote could matter. In a country of ~100 million potential voters, the separation between Gore and Bush was only ~541 thousand and only 537 in the state that made the difference. If you went out and had swung 20 (Florida) voters and they had swung 10 additional voters each, the election would've been different (minus the Supreme Court ;) ).

[WildCat]

Originally posted by shanek


You don't have to join a party. You can be unaffiliated. You do need to be a registered voter.
Here in Chicago, you don't even have to be alive to vote. The saying is , "Vote early & often". That's how JFK got elected. :D

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Originally posted by shanek


You don't have to join a party. You can be unaffiliated. You do need to be a registered voter.

You can put your mark next to any Pres/VP pair you want, but you aren't actually voting for them. You're voting for electors, and whoever is elected joins the Electoral College. They're the ones that actually elect the President.

It is a vague recollection of my reading of political systems that prompted my statement probing

Originally posted by PygmyPlaidGiraffe

As far as I understand it Americans do not vote for their President in the sense of: mark an x beside the name of the candidate you choose for president.

If I am wrong please correct me. I am no expert on elections in th US.



Thanks for clearing that up. Now I understand why I doubted American voters vote for a President.

[arcticpenguin]

I am not affiliated with any party, I'm independent.