JIM DUNN, Hospital Angel

[Ashles]

I nominate KRAMER for the JREF prize as he states:
It's a few days before Xmas 2005, and this just came in...
If he can predict future applications then surely the money is his.:)

But seriously one of things I enjoy most about this site is watching KRAMER respond to applicants in perfectly reasonably ways which they don't seem to expect.

For example Paul Carey - "Okay here's the date bring your own receiver" (Alright, I know this was more the Irish Skeptics but Carey clearly was utterly thrown by this)
Or offering Achau Nguyen "one list".

It's amazing, simply amazing (or not) how the claims dissolve after these offers.

I predict KRAMER's simple request for information from Jim Dunn will see an interesting disappearrance from this claimant.
($1 million can be paid to me via the usual Swiss bank account).

[CptColumbo]

He dug himself a hole he didn't need to. Since, if I'm remembering the rules, all he had to do was state the claim, not provide anecdotal evidence.

[Carn]

But will the claim be rejected, if he cannot answer these questions?

After all, its nearly 30 years since then, so the excuse "i do not remeber", could be reasonable.

What i think is more interesting, is how likely the claimed event can happen by chance?

As far as i understood, he claims that those who are prior to friday midnight in hospital survive at least till sunday midnight, people coming in after friday midnight are not part of the claim.

Also i'm curious what the explanation will be, why he cannot do it with animals(i expect that, because with animals testing would be more reliable, though not neccessary easier, e.g. let a bee sting something and claimant tries to keep it alive afterwards for 10 hours, success demonstrated by bee still trying to move).

Carn

[CptColumbo]

Depending where they are, it's been my experience that many hospitals have a low mortality rate. So it could have been a coincidence or chance that no one died.

Maybe they should name a hospice.

[Brian]

I'd want to see him do it in 5 hospitals in 5 major metropolitan areas on 5 different weekends myself.

[Carn]

Originally posted by CptColumbo
Depending where they are, it's been my experience that many hospitals have a low mortality rate. So it could have been a coincidence or chance that no one died.

Maybe they should name a hospice.

I understood!

He will want to be tested with a homeopathic "clinic"!

They send the patients away anyway, when things get critical and real med is needed, so they do not die in that hospital.

Carn

[Beady]

Originally posted by Carn
But will the claim be rejected, if he cannot answer these questions?

After all, its nearly 30 years since then, so the excuse "i do not remeber", could be reasonable.

It's reasonable that he couldn't remember the occasion and place that he defeated death, multiple times at once?

Well, I suppose it's reasonable, if something even more exciting happened soon after, so that all thought of this minor victory were driven from his mind. I wonder what that could have been? What could have been more dramatic and important than giving several people two days more of life, through means heretofore only attributed to God, Himself?

[roger]

I wonder what the average number of deaths per day is at the hospital named by Kramer for the test, and how often there are no deaths in a day. I'm kind of surprised tha applicant didn't ask the same question - stopping an average of 100 deaths a day is rather different than an average of 1. But then, he probably really believes he has the skill.

[CptColumbo]

I had a dream last night, a applicant to the JREF backed out, but didn't just say "I don't want to do it." He kept changing the subject and claiming other powers.

Could he reapply in a year at the two day level?

[Lisa Simpson]

I'd like to see him do his psychic thing at King/Drew Medical Center in Los Angeles, a not-so-good hospital in a not-so-good neighborhood. Just for the challenge of it.

[KRAMER]

Oopsy.

[KRAMER]

Originally posted by roger
I wonder what the average number of deaths per day is at the hospital named by Kramer for the test, and how often there are no deaths in a day.

I have no clue as to how many deaths per day happen (on average) at Aventura Hospital. I've blinded myself to that data, and if it were offered to me, I'd steadfastly refuse it.

The applicant asked for a hospital that the "monitor has physically walked into", so, of the 3 hospitals my mother has been to in Broward and Dade counties, I chose the one in which I did NOT see anyone wheeled out on a gurney with a sheet over them. My mother was in Intensive Care in all three, as well.

I want this guy to win the million. And I want him to do it over the holidays so that no family has to suffer the loss of a loved one during what is supposed to be the most joyfull time of the year.

I also want... "Peace On Earth, Purity of Essence, and the preservation of our Precious Bodily Fluids."
- General Jack D. Ripper (DR. STRANGELOVE)

[KRAMER]

Originally posted by CptColumbo
Depending where they are, it's been my experience that many hospitals have a low mortality rate. So it could have been a coincidence or chance that no one died.

Or it could be that this never happened. Read his latest emails to me. He "can't recall" the dates.

The "newspaper" in which the story was to have appeared was a tabloid rag, and even THEY refused to print it, if we can believe any of this.

I'm sorry, but in the world of psychic phenomenon investigations,
saying "I can't recall", is akin to saying "I refuse to answer on the grounds that it might incriminate me".

We asked for evidence that might render his claim something other than anecdotal. I made the call to the alleged journalist, but got only an automated voicemail response. I left a message.

I wish ASHLES was correct in his prediction, but this applicant's emails are growing in frequency, if not in relevance.

Sending me notes on his dreams - Yeesh. Who am I?
Ann Landers?

[Lisa Simpson]

Originally posted by KRAMER
Sending me notes on his dreams Yeesh. Who am I? Ann Landers?

If you are, you should apply for the million. Ann Landers is dead.

[KRAMER]

Dunn has just agreed to 96 hours from Thursday thru Sunday midnight, over this coming Xmas 2004 weekend.

Wouldn't it be lovely if he was the first person ever to pass preliminary testing?

[SkepticScott]

I hope he passes the preliminary test, despite JREF's PR loss of not being able to say "no one has passed the preliminary test'. Not having people die is generally a good thing.

[KRAMER]

Well, my contact with the hospital was not what I would call positive.

Although the first administrator I spoke with was very accomodating, she put me on hold, and after a few minutes,
a new voice arrived with a much less receptive tone.

"We do not entertain such requests, and we do not involve ourselves with matters such as these. It is against our policy."

I'm writing a letter and faxing it to the head administrator tomorrow morning.

We'll see, I guess.

[Beady]

Originally posted by SkepticScott
I hope he passes the preliminary test, despite JREF's PR loss of not being able to say "no one has passed the preliminary test'. Not having people die is generally a good thing.

What about the people that Dunn may be sentencing to an extra 96 hours of gratuitous agony, before their deaths? Death is not necessarilly a bad thing, and I can imagine more than one circumstance where I would prefer to be released from life.

Death is not the enemy that dying is. If Dunn wants to do those people a favor, he should ease their dying, not prolong it.

Which brings up the question: What kind of person would prolong someone's death from, say, cancer by four days, just so he can collect a lot of money?

This isn't funny, guys. Unlike Kramer, I don't hope this stunt will work; I fear it.

[SkepticScott]

Beady, that's why I said "generally".

[Beleth]

Originally posted by KRAMER
Well, my contact with the hospital was not what I would call positive.

Although the first administrator I spoke with was very accomodating, she put me on hold, and after a few minutes,
a new voice arrived with a much less receptive tone.

"We do not entertain such requests, and we do not involve ourselves with matters such as these. It is against our policy."

I'm writing a letter and faxing it to the head administrator tomorrow morning.

We'll see, I guess. This is the first part of your job which I have heard of that I do not envy, KRAMER. This has all the potential to sound like an overly morbid request. "Hello! Could you keep track of the number of people who die this Christmas and let me know, please?"

I'm sure you put it more diplomatically than that, but chances are the first person you talked to did not when she relayed your request to the second person.

Would there be a different way of getting the information? Aren't death certificates public information?

[Carn]

Originally posted by Beady
What about the people that Dunn may be sentencing to an extra 96 hours of gratuitous agony, before their deaths? Death is not necessarilly a bad thing, and I can imagine more than one circumstance where I would prefer to be released from life.

Death is not the enemy that dying is. If Dunn wants to do those people a favor, he should ease their dying, not prolong it.

Which brings up the question: What kind of person would prolong someone's death from, say, cancer by four days, just so he can collect a lot of money?

This isn't funny, guys. Unlike Kramer, I don't hope this stunt will work; I fear it.

I agree, that for some people 4 extra days of living would be not good. But even if nobody is happy about 4 extra days, it still would be good.
Because afterwards you take this guy, understand why he can do it, find other people who can do it. Then every emergency room gets his death preventer.
Nonsense, better get him in a car and drive him to whereever a serious accident happened and let him keep people alive.
Think about, you got a nasty accident with many injured stuck in the cars. Normally that's pretty bad, people can die while the time it takes to cut them free and get them to the hospital. But now no one dies at the site of an accident as soon as the healer can switch his power on.

Carn

[Brian]

Originally posted by Beleth


Would there be a different way of getting the information? Aren't death certificates public information?
Here's (http://www.miami-dadeclerk.com/public-records/pubsearch1.asp) the link to get Miami-Dade County records online, including Death Certs. We'd have to inquire, or search the site to find out how often the records are updated. In MA the day you record, is the day it goes online (in certain counties).
I doubt you can search them by hospital though, we'd have to search by date and check them all within a certain time period.

[Beady]

Originally posted by Carn
Think about, you got a nasty accident with many injured stuck in the cars. Normally that's pretty bad, people can die while the time it takes to cut them free and get them to the hospital. But now no one dies at the site of an accident as soon as the healer can switch his power on.

Look, this isn't going to happen. The most that will happen is an outrageous coincidence, and Randi will have to figure out how to answer Sylvia Browne going "nanner nanner" for the rest of his life. Still, this is supposed to be a forum promoting critical thinking. So let's think critically.

Why are you going to limit treatment to accident victims? Why not keep the terminal cancer or Alzheimer's victim alive indefinitely? What about all of the victims of all of the fatal diseases? After all, they might find a cure. Someday. Just keep them doped up and out of pain. What about the elderly? What is your criteria for limiting prolongation to just a few? Why not keep everybody in the hospital alive? Dunn claims to be able to keep an entire hospital alive, all by himself, indefinitely (96 hours is just the demonstration period that's been agreed upon); why not assign a "healer" to every hospital and nursing home, so that we can keep *all* of our sick, injured and elderly alive?

BTW, among all of the other questions, overpopulation seems to be creeping around, just below the surface. Seems to me that, no matter how much extra food we learn to produce, if nobody dies, but people continue to be born, well, something's going to blow. Somewhere along the line, people are going to have to die. If we have the power to keep everyone alive, then it is going to require a conscious decision regarding who dies. Who makes that decision, and according to what criteria? Have we just entered the realm of "Logan's Run"?

[KRAMER]

Originally posted by Beady
What about the people that Dunn may be sentencing to an extra 96 hours of gratuitous agony, before their deaths?
...This isn't funny, guys. Unlike Kramer, I don't hope this stunt will work; I fear it.

It's not a stunt. It's a delusion. Period.

My apologies to those who will be disappointed to hear that I am not always of an open mind, but, speaking for myself for just a brief moment (and NOT for JREF), I must admit that I cannot entertain any possibility of this particular claim being genuine or valid.

The "power" Dunn professes to have lies entirely within the boundaries of his imagination. It is only his Challenge application that allows him to share it, externalize it, and render it a part of the lives of others - namely myself.

The Challenge is, for most applicants (other than dowsers and perpetual motion advocates), their only means of acheiving any semblance of self-validation.

In a certain sense, by presenting the JREF with a claim that we cannot reject, we are engaging them in their delusion, and, at least in part, validating their belief system.

This is the saddest part of what I do.

I deal, 5 days each week, with the severly self-deluded, and with the mentally ill, and this fellow Dunn has shown ample signs of having been blessed with both.

Beady - do you really believe that this fellow Dunn has such powers? Your statement suggests that you do. Please advise.

The reason that this scenario (about which Beady seems so concerned) never even entered my mind is that I am wholly confident that Dunn is no different from so many other Challenge applicants; a deluded individual who believes that he has the god-like power to give and take life, or in this case, sustain it.

These are not simply your garden variety delusions of grandeur. They are delusions of godliness.

I guess I should never have stated that I hoped Dunn succeeds.
I will endeavor to never post empty hopes or wishfull thinking on the forum again. I walked right into that one, didn't I...

My bad.

[KRAMER]

I called the phone number Mr. Dunn provided for Tom Valentine, the journalist in question.

The response I received (via email) was NOT from Tom Valentine, which raises some interesting questions...

==============================================

Dear Kramer,

Your phone call reached not Tom Valentine, but me, Al Mankoff.

I knew both Tom Valentine, who was editor of a national weekly magazine at the time.

He ran a centerfold feature on psychic healing and Jim Dunn was featured in that. I worked closely at the time with Jim and was with him when the Editor of the Charlotte Observer ran a Sunday feature story with illustrations. I can attest to a number of unusual events to which I was witness and I still have copies of some of the material that appeared at the time.

At one time, for example, we were at home in Raleigh when we rec'd a phone call from a physician (M.D.) in a coastal California city. He was forthright in telling us (he'd seen the feature Tom ran) that he thought that what we were doing was total nonsense and he had no faith in the concept of distant
healing, but his predicament had to do with his long-time partner in the practice who was dying of cancer and had been given less than 3 days to live. He avowed that the situation was so desperate that he was willing to try anything to keep the man alive.

Jim advised him that the situation was indeed critical and that he might not be able to keep the man alive but that he could indeed extend the life force for a period of time. The doctor, hearing this, asked him to do whatever he could, though he was certain, with all expert professional medical practitioners agreeing, that he could not possibly last more than 3 days at the outside.

He called back a week later. His partner, against all the odds, was still alive. As I recall, the man lingered on for almost a month, astounding all who witnessed the event. Later the MD phoned to say that he had witnessed what could only have been a miracle.

This was only one of many such experiences I had with Jim Dunn. Later on, we closed it down and a number of psychic practitioners we knew simply went underground and no longer worked publicly. A woman we worked with, extremely well gifted, was approached on the track at Duke Univ by the coach of the
Russian track team, then touring the US. The gist of the conversation was that she had an invitation to visit the Soviet Union for an extended visitto work with Soviet scientists and sensitives. She refused as she sensed that this would be a one way ticket with no return.

Shortly after that she was visited by three men in dark suits,
representing unnamed US Govt agencies with a somewhat similar message--extended work in the USA. She refused and shortly after that, left Durham, went underground and has not worked publicly since that time. Several other people we have known and worked with over time had similar experiences.

There's more, much more, to this. I'm surprised that Jim Dunn, an extremly talented and capable sensitive, has chosen at this point in time, to return to public work, but I'm certain that whatever his reason, he will display an unusual and effective talent.

Thank you for your inquiry. As for Tom Valentine, I have lost touch with him over the years but I believe he is teaching at a small university in the upper midwestern states. A Google search might provide an answer. I knew Tom well and shared many extraordinary experiences with him over a 10 year period, back then.

If there's any more information I can help you with, please ask. Thanks for getting in touch.

-Al Mankoff (www.almankoff.com)

==============================================

Go ahead. Check out his website.

Perhaps if Detective Columbo was one of my co-workers, we'd know within due time why Jim Dunn gave me a phone number for Tom Valentine, and then received a response from Al Mankoff.

Me? I got enough aggravation.

Oh, yes, I almost forgot:
My response to Mr. Mankoff...

============================================

Hello Mr. Mankoff,

Thank you for your timely response.

Of course you understand that anecdotal evidence such as you have provided in this email cannot sustain the claims Mr. Dunn has put forth. We are in dire need of harder, documented evidence, without which his claims cannot possibly be verified.

Is it possible for you to forward copies of all the materials related to Mr. Dunn that you have in your possession?

This would be of enormous help to us in our ongoing investigation of Mr. Dunn's extraordinary claims.

We look forward to your reply.

-Kramer, JREF Paranormal Claims Dept.

p.s. We are very curious about the emotions you experienced during the time in which your terminally ill friend's life (and presumably, his extraordinary suffering, as well) was extended, according to your belief due to the "powers" of Mr. Dunn. Would you like to offer any comments on this?

============================================

Credit must be given to BEADY for the "p.s." portion of my email.

And in case anyone is wondering why I am asking for documentation of this claim when anecdotal evidence does not qualify for the Million Dollar Prize, I am doing so because Randi has asked me to.

We will accept only a demonstration as evidence, as you all know, but we also will, on occasion, ask those making an extraordinary claim to back it up with evidence.

I've made it clear to the applicant that this request has nothing to do with the Challenge.

[Beady]

Originally posted by KRAMER
Beady - do you really believe that this fellow Dunn has such powers? Your statement suggests that you do. Please advise.

Heh heh. Read on a few messages further. I guess I should have put in a subjunctive qualifier; ie, I *would* fear it. No, I don't think it's actually going to happen, I was just playing the scenario through; a thought experiment, sort of. Still, like the science fiction movies from the early 50s, I do think there are a few things Man was not meant to fool with. *If* such power existed, I wouldn't want it used on me or mine.

[Beady]

Originally posted by KRAMER
Credit must be given to BEADY for the "p.s." portion of my email.

Glad to help. :)

Seriously, people talk all the time about prolonging life, without ever considering the implications. There's more to life than simple survival.

[CptColumbo]

May I suggest you name another hospital, and keep it confidential until after the test. In case someone takes it upon themselves to really test his power, and due something rash.

[Beady]

Originally posted by CptColumbo
May I suggest you name another hospital, and keep it confidential until after the test. In case someone takes it upon themselves to really test his power, and due something rash.

I won't say this couldn't be a problem, but I doubt it's very likely. First of all, the people who want to see Randi taken down a peg or two aren't liable to do anything to make Dunn fail. The ones who do want Dunn to fail, or who at least want an honest test, profess to be rationalists and, at least it would seem, are prohibited by a rational framework from doing anything, especially something overly-dramatic, to influence the test. Having said all that, it's admitted there are plenty of whackjobs out there whose only rationality is what they decided it is. But that brings up my second point:

How many people would be aware that this particular test is being run? This is a niche interest group, and, even within the group, a majority of folks aren't going to know what's going on.

[Loon]

Originally posted by KRAMER
p.s. We are very curious about the emotions you experienced during the time in which your terminally ill friend's life (and presumably, his extraordinary suffering, as well) was extended, according to your belief due to the "powers" of Mr. Dunn. Would you like to offer any comments on this?

Except that, by my reading, the guy who lived the extra month was not a friend of Al Mankoff, but a friend of a random doctor who called Mr. Mankoff and said "help my friend."

[Skeptical Greg]

He called back a week later. His partner, against all the odds, was still alive. As I recall, [u]the man lingered on for almost a month, astounding all who witnessed the event. Later the MD phoned to say that he had witnessed what could only have been a miracle. :eek::eek::eek:



Can you imagine the impact on worldwide human well-being, if all the terminally ill could be made to linger on for a month...?!

This is truly an amazing power.. (Right up there with' candle flame manipulation.. ) :rolleyes:

[Ashles]

Of course it's a ridiculous claim, but of the claims I've seen on this site wouldn't this one have the possibility of being the most likely to occur by chance?

No deaths in a hospital over a 96 hour period seems relatively unlikely, but I also bet it happens quite frequently.

Certain hospitals will deal with more long-term patients and, because of limited bed capacity will only have a certain amount of space.

A hospital with a large A&E department would be surely likely to have many more deaths than one without.

This is turning into a quite horrible claim really isn't it?

[steenkh]

I also think that it should have been ensured that this particular claim could not happen by chance, but fortunately, this is only the preliminary test. And perhaps it would be best to actually have someone passing the preliminary test, because many people think that the challenge is not real because people cannot even pass the preliminary.

But aren't hospital loath to release this kind of data? It could be bad for business, if a hospital is known to have a higher mortality rate than other hospitals. So maybe the test will fizzle out because the hospital will not admit to have had any deaths, and Jim Dunn will claim a victory that cannot be verified.

[Lisa Simpson]

Originally posted by Loon
Except that, by my reading, the guy who lived the extra month was not a friend of Al Mankoff, but a friend of a random doctor who called Mr. Mankoff and said "help my friend."

That's the way I read it too, but Kramer's been picked on so much in this thread already, I didn't want to point it out.

[KRAMER]

Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
That's the way I read it too, but Kramer's been picked on so much in this thread already, I didn't want to point it out.

Yes, I think I misunderstood that part of the letter.

You're absolutely right, I think, if any of this is actually true.

I think I need a week off.

[Beady]

JREF will also NOT test claims that are likely to cause injury of any sort, such as those involving the withholding of air, food or water, or the use of illicit materials, drugs, or dangerous devices.

Just a thought. Given my previous objection/concern, that postponing an accident/disease victim's death could/would needlessly prolong their suffering, does Jim Dunn's proposal violate the spirit of the cited provision?

IOW, should Dunn's application be rejected under this provision of the rules?

[Carn]

Originally posted by Beady
Just a thought. Given my previous objection/concern, that postponing an accident/disease victim's death could/would needlessly prolong their suffering, does Jim Dunn's proposal violate the spirit of the cited provision?

IOW, should Dunn's application be rejected under this provision of the rules?

I think this rule refers to dangers, that are to be expected, upon the current scientific knowledge.
The guy wanting to inhale cyanide gas was rejected, beccause current scientific knowledge indicates it might be dangerous. And that although his claim was to survive it.

If this applicants power doesn't work, nothing bad happens and this is to be expected from current knowledge, so his claim is not rejected. That the thing could be dangerous if it works, is irrelevant.

Otherwise, all telepathy and so on would have to be rejected, because there also not working is not harmful, but working could be pretty dangerous, after all rummaging directly through someone else's brain could cause any mental damage.

Carn

[Beady]

Originally posted by Carn
If this applicants power doesn't work, nothing bad happens and this is to be expected from current knowledge, so his claim is not rejected. That the thing could be dangerous if it works, is irrelevant.

It's only irrelevant if you prejudge that it will fail. Yes, I think/know it will fail but, assuming this guy is honest, and assuming that you/I/we/JREF have agreed to give him an honest chance to succeed, then we are bound by honor, our own principles and, most of all, the need to protect our own credibility, to treat him and his claims as if there is a chance of success, no matter how slight. If we do so, then do we also (in this case) ignore the potential for being the cause of extended suffering?

Otherwise, all telepathy and so on would have to be rejected, because there also not working is not harmful, but working could be pretty dangerous, after all rummaging directly through someone else's brain could cause any mental damage.

An interesting thought, for two reasons. 1) It carries my own objections even further, extending them into areas I hadn't considered. If seriously considered, it has the potential of shutting down the Challenge. That, however, is and should be a seperate debate. 2) It appears to potentially invoke the "I didn't know it was loaded" defense. Just suppose that things work out for a psychic claimant so that it appears, under controlled conditions, that he succeeded in passing the test; then suppose that this apparent success results in harm which, in turn, leads to litigation. What would JREF's defense be against a charge of being an accessory/participant/whatever? Would JREF claim they only encouraged the claimant because they didn't think it would work? Would they claim that the offer of $1 million for success doesn't constitute encouragement?

Hey Kramer! Have JREF's legal consultants ever considered this question?

[KRAMER]

No, this has not been presented to our legal team.

This claim is making me sick to my stomach.

It's Monday. Anyone feel up to sussing out whether or not anyone died at Aventura Hospital in the last 96 hours?

I sent a fax to the hospital administrator, detailing JREF's activities and goals, treading as lightly as possible...but received no reply.

I really wish the entire matter would just go away - more than any other silly claim I have ever encountered here.

Did I say "silly"?

Well, I meant it.

[KRAMER]

I got an email from Jim yesterday asking about the results of his claim.

I told him that we were unable to get the hospital to divulge the data we needed. I told him how he could find the data he needs in the County Records, to which he replied, "I'll get back to you."

So I'm going to assume that we'll hear from Jim again, IF he finds that he has passed the preliminary phase of the Challenge, which we would then, of course, attempt to verify.

Until I hear from him again, though, I'm ignoring this one. It makes me sick just thinking about it.

[Winterfrost]

As Mankoff's testimony to Dunn's incredible abilities are obviously insufficient, you can find Tom Valentine at the appropriately named: http://www.tomvalentine.com. A direct quote from his website:

Summer 1971- June 1975 contract writer/editor National Tattler, tabloid circulation 800,000 weekly. (Miracle editor—had to come up with a miracle a week!)

He is now hosting Radio Free America, an international shortwave radio program (wonder where Dunn found him?). His other recent credits include writing for American Free Press (http://www.americanfreepress.net if you haven't yet met your daily dose of the ridiculous), Founder/President Carotec Inc. (a health food company), publisher/editor of Search for Health magazine and True Health newsletter, and editor of Magnets Magazine.

They don't get much more reputable than that. ;)

[KRAMER]

Wow. What else can I say?

Wow.

[mecal]

I found an obituary for someone that passes away at the hospital on Thursday Dec. 23rd. In case that helps:

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=13655288&BRD=1918&PAG=461&dept_id=506883&rfi=6

[webfusion]

Yes, it helps to know the fact that Aventura lost a patient during the exact time that Dunn was attempting to pass his preliminary phase. Nice piece of skeptical detective work!

Perfect example why we love the JREF forums, really.
Thanks for sharing, mecal. Gold star for you :
http://www.gadzillionthings.net/images/gad943.gif

[Ashles]

Nice work Mecal.

I'm sorry your first post had to be as a result of trawling through obituaries, but excellent research anyway.

Welcome.:)

[KRAMER]

Excellent research!!!

I can now write to Jim Dunn, offer him the link you provided to the obituary, and tell Him to feel free to re-apply in one year.

[Beady]

Originally posted by mecal
I found an obituary for someone that passes away at the hospital on Thursday Dec. 23rd. In case that helps:

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=13655288&BRD=1918&PAG=461&dept_id=506883&rfi=6

Like Ashles, I'm sorry your first post had to be about such a distasteful subject (not the person's death, rather the loony who was trying to exploit that person's illness). But still, good work.

BTW, you might want to drop Kramer a personal note, just to make sure he sees it.

Oops! Never mind.

(I hate it when that happens! :mad: )

[Lisa Simpson]

KRAMER--

I tried clicking the second death notice on the thread in the Challenge Applications forum, but it lead me to a Microsoft site, complete with a picture of Bill Gates. I'm pretty sure Billy is still amongst the living.

ETA: Nevermind. I think something screwy is going on with my computer. I'm getting hijacked. I hate Microsoft.

[KRAMER]

Try the links now. I found the same problems, and I do believe I fixed it.

I hope.

[Thumbo]

The second link worked ok, but the first could not be found.

[mecal]

Thanks, it was nothing much.. simple google search: Obituaries "Aventura Hospital " Dec. 23, 2004

It was the first one listed.

I love researching and such so it was natural for me to jump right in. I'm not much of a poster, but I have being lurking for a few weeks now.

~mecal

[Beady]

Kramer,

What are you going to do a year from now, when Dunn applies again? Alternatively, what are you going to do if/when someone else makes the same or similar claim? I think we all agreed this was a particularly sickening experience that no one was anxious to repeat. I do think you ought to consider my suggestion for a rule addition, about not involving unwitting participants.

Among other things, this claim seemed to bear a resemblance to the book of Job.

[Orangutan]

From the claim thread:

Kramer, Just to let you know I have no luck with Aventura Hospital and no luck with the Dade County Medical Examiners Office. .

So what was it? You Failed in your claim or you were hoping to get lucky and didn't?

Doesn't sound like a paranormal claim to me. There should be safeguards against random chance if he applies again.

O.

[Lisa Simpson]

Originally posted by Thumbo
The second link worked ok, but the first could not be found.

The first link in Kramer's thread has three slashes after the http, that's why it doesn't work, but if you go to mecal's post above, it's the same link.

[KRAMER]

Originally posted by Beady
Kramer,
What are you going to do a year from now, when Dunn applies again? Alternatively, what are you going to do if/when someone else makes the same or similar claim? I think we all agreed this was a particularly sickening experience that no one was anxious to repeat. I do think you ought to consider my suggestion for a rule addition, about not involving unwitting participants.


According to Randi, failing a test once does not preclude an applicant from passing the next test. Our rule regarding an applicant being precluded from applying again for 12 months is as fair as we can be about this sticky issue. It would NOT be fair to say NEVER AGAIN, as regards testing.

I'm not sure that I agree with your assertion that the people in the hospital are unwitting participants. They're not participating at all, in my view of things. If an applicant states that there will be no car crashed on a stretch of I-95 during the winter months in Michigan, is the driver of every car in Michigan then a participant in the test? I don't really think so.

Don't get me wrong. I'd very much like to tell all applicants with these kinds of claims to go fish. It's a complete waste of our time, and you're right when you say that it really is guess-work by someone hoping to get lucky and win the million bucks.

But, if they put it forth as a paranormal power (if they state that through their paranormal ability, they will keep deaths from occuring), well, sadly, that IS a paranormal claim. Isn't it?

Really it's no less absurd and silly than any other we get, is it?

According to Randi (whom I have just consulted on the matter), those hospitalized at Aventura are NOT participants in the test, as we make NO contact with them and we do NOT interact with them in any way.

And remember; this applicant is a self-professed "healer". He was NOT just guessing that no one would die and hoping that Lady Luck would shine upon him. He was claiming that through his power, no one would die.

Sadly, that's a paranormal claim, and sadly, we are resigned to deal with it.

[Thumbo]

Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
The first link in Kramer's thread has three slashes after the http, that's why it doesn't work, but if you go to mecal's post above, it's the same link.
Got it - thanks,

[Beady]

Originally posted by KRAMER
And remember; this applicant is a self-professed "healer". He was NOT just guessing that no one would die and hoping that Lady Luck would shine upon him. He was claiming that through his power, no one would die.

I would quibble with the definition of "healer" that is being used here. What, precisely, is being healed?

Sadly, that's a paranormal claim, and sadly, we are resigned to deal with it.

Well, then, may I suggest that your initial response to similar applications include something like the following stock passage (and this is a rough 1st draft)? If nothing else, it may drive away some of the more consciencious loonies:

Because of the special nature of your claim and proposed demonstration, we ask that you respond to the following concerns:

Are you, in effect, proposing to postpone all deaths in a certain place for a specified amount of time?

Are you aware that, should your demonstration succeed, you may well be prolonging intense suffering for both the patients and their families?

Do you intend to make the patients and/or their families aware of your proposed actions, and to obtain their consent?

If not, what legal, moral or ethical right do you claim to attempt such a demonstration?

If your demonstration should prove successful, do you assume all legal responsibility, while simulateneously absolving JREF from same, for withdrawing life support at the end of the demonstration without the consent of the patients, their families, or (if applicable) the courts?

I thought the last bit particularly apt, considering where you are and where Dunn's "demonstration" took place.

[Carn]

There was some discussion with this claim, that if it worked, there would be some moral and maybe even legal problems. Aftere all this claim working, would effect dozens of people in a medical way and that normally requires their consent.
So succesfully passing could brake a law, but as the desired effect is not totally negative and there are a lot of possible consequences and most importantly as it was far more likely only delusion at work, there was no problem for JREF to accept this claim.

But i just had the question, how JREF would handle a claim, that upon passing would certainly be totally immoral, but on failing would be without problem.

To give some examples what claims i'm musing about:

-to cause in a city all childs born on a day die on that day

-to cause metoer stike, but only bigger ones(100m+) and only upon bigger cities

-to cause a random nuke to detonate

-to summon some mass murdering supernatural being

What to do in such cases?
From current scientific knowledge is damn safe to accept such claims, its nearly certain, that no one gets hurt, but if prelimenary is passed ...

Was there ever such a claim?

Carn

[Ashles]

Carn, the JREF doesn't accept claims where people might get hurt so all the claims you mention would be rejected instantly.

There is some grey area about this particular claim as preventing someone from dying might cause additional suffering, but as it stands it is a claim to prevent death, so overall it would seem to be a positive effect. If it genuinely saved one single life it would be an amazing phenomenon.

[KRAMER]

The power over life & death is a god-like delusion of grandeur.
I'm sorry, but I am not going to entertain the notion that some day I will see such a nutty claim realized.

Dowsing? Sure.

UFO's? Sure.

Even, dare I say it, Homeopathy? Fantastically remote, but possible. Sure.

Making the stars move? No.

Making the sun set two hours late? No.

Snow in the Panama Canal? No.

A 100-foot Christ materializing at the corner of B'Way & 42nd street along with all the Xtians who died since the year ONE? No.

Causing a meteor to hit the White House? As much as I'd love to see that, NO.

A team of doctors maintaining life (for months or even years) in an individual who would certainly die without a ventilator? Of course.

A "healer" exerting his powers over life & death in a hospital so that one would would die there during a specified time period?

Sorry, but NO.

The JREF assumed no risk with this absurd claim.

No reasonably-minded person would think so.

I have, in the past, attempted to bring REASON into my conversations with such severly deluded individuals. I cannot recall even a single instance in which they were receptive to such a notion. As Randi says..."They ALL do the same thing, ALWAYS.
They'll ignore you completely, and send endless emails about how THEY are going to win the Million, and how THEY have real powers."

Such delusional claims do NOT come from people who can be reasoned with. Asking an applicant the questions you suggest we ask, would accomplish nothing but more wasted time.

I try to prioritize when dealing with paranormal claims. In almost a year here at JREF, I have learned which claims are from applicants who are likely to agree to a protocol, and which ones are likely to end in an angry exchange marked by threats of legal action. I've become pretty good at quantifying events here. Randi was right. There is little deviation in standards here when dealing with paranormal claims. The nuts will always be the nuts, and nothing can help them to be less nutty. Nothing.

I have also learned which claims can be quickly dispatched, such as this one from Jim Dunn. The claim was a disheartening one,
but it's done.


"IT'S OVER !!!" IT'S OVER !!!" - ROY ORBISON

[Hawk one]

While looking at Kramer's last post, I realise that he is probably as fit for a fight as soon as he gets a good night's rest. Nevertheless, I'm almost tempted to apply as a temp just to give him a couple of weeks vacation....

...But then I realise I will have to deal with those wacky applications. And after those two weeks, I'd probably seem like Kramer will do after 5 years, as I just don't have the mental stamina for this kind of job.

[Beady]

Originally posted by KRAMER
I try to prioritize when dealing with paranormal claims. In almost a year here at JREF, I have learned which claims are from applicants who are likely to agree to a protocol, and which ones are likely to end in an angry exchange marked by threats of legal action. I've become pretty good at quantifying events here. Randi was right. There is little deviation in standards here when dealing with paranormal claims.

Well, you're definitely right about that. I deal with applications of a different sort and it's true, after a while you can tell just by looking at the folder how much trouble something is going to be.

I promised before to go away and leave you alone, this time I'm really going to do it.

...until the next time. ;)