Attention ALL Atheists: I need your help...

[tommyz]

Has anyone here noticed how Mr. Randi deftly avoided using the term "Happy Holidays" in his commentaries the past few weeks?

Personally, I celebrate Christmas myself, but could care less what other people think of it. And as a multi-cultured, respectable and "polically correct" (for a lack of a better term) individual, I'm very considerate of other people's beliefs and realize that not everyone celebrates Christmas like I do. This is why I ALWAY use the term "Happy Holidays" around this time of year, as a generic salutation in which people of ALL faiths would find both welcoming and non-offensive (unless of course I know for a FACT that the person I'm greeting DOES celebrate Christmas --then I'd say "Merry Christmas" or is Jewish, in which case I'd wish them a "Happy Hannukah").

How, then, would I greet an atheist at this time of year? If you're an antheist and you're reading this (and I know we've got plenty of them on this board!) do you ever get offended if someone wishes you "Happy Holidays"? If so, what would you then suggest to be a more appropriate euphemism for people of your belief system?

[Jorghnassen]

Since when did Christmas become Lord Voldemort? Wish me "Merry Christmas", I won't be offended. I might not be a believer anymore but I still go home, give and get presents around a Christmas tree, and eat turkey and meat pies at 1AM. Wish me a Happy Hannukah, Krazy Kwanzaa, whatever else, I won't mind either though I don't celebrate those. I find "Happy Holidays" more offending just because of its PCness.

PS: The expression is "coudn't care less".

[Anders]

HI, I'm a hardcore atheist, with some agnostic view thrown in. But I am a sucker for traditions, and christmas is a quite nice tradition: You eat good food, you give presents to others, and you are usually free from work.

So, born in a christian country, I prefer "Merry Christmas" or "God Jul" as we put it in Swedish. The religious meaning of christmas is totally irrelevant to me.

/Anders

[steenkh]

First of all, I do not get offended because someone wishes me well within his own limited belief system. "Merry Christmas" is as good as anything to me. I also think that because atheists do not deposit their reason for existence in a religion, we are probably not so thin-skinned as the religious types.

Besides, I consider Christmas to be a heathen festival, that has unsuccessfully been usurped by the Christians. I say "unsuccessfully", because it is really a feast of consumerism, and in my country, Denmark, you will be hard pressed to find any religious symbols at all. Even Santa Claus is just called the Christmas Man, and the Danish word for Christmas does not contain "Christ" in it anyway. Which reminds me that "Happy holiday" is also a bit awkward because it contains the word "holy", which is a bit difficult to grasp for an atheist!

In any case, I am also not subscribing to ancient heathen practices, so the fact that Christmas is originally a heathen solstice festival is not really something that should appeal to me, but it is useful to rub in the nose of the Christians.

Happy *insert whatever that appeals to you*!

[Ashles]

I'm not sure why people get so hung up on this.

I'm an Atheist yet I wish people Happy Christmas and send people Christmas cards (sometimes even with mangers!).

It's not like December 25th has anything particularly to do with Christ anyway (being a pagan midwinter festival hijacked wholesale to be turned into a Christian festival).

It is an ancient festival based around winter, family, celebration, happiness, food, gifts, and general nice things.

I personally like these things so if Christians can celebrate at this time of year that has no real historical significance for them so can the rest of us.
And if it acts as a yearly focus for their belief system well that's all fine and dandy (although I'd have thought Easter would make more sense...)

If anyone finds any holiday trapping or greeting offensive the problem is almost certainly with them.

Example - in England there have been a few attempts to ban certain Christmas trappings in certain places so as not to be offensive to other religions or beliefs.
These attempts have not been made by the people who will alegedly be offended but by misguided middle-class white Christians who tend to see offense just about everywhere.
Indeed the Muslim Council for England have publicly declared that they have no problem with any aspect of Christmas as this is a basically Christian country so we celebrate as such.
You'd think this would be obvious really, but the super PC brigade won't listen to the average man on the street, only those who they are 'defending'.

Like there aren't better things for them to put their energies into.:rolleyes:

But overall, almost everyone in Britain would say Merry Christmas without thinking twice about it.

[IXP]

The Universal Language Translator embedded in my brain changes all holiday greetings to "Happy Solstice", which does not offend me.

[Darat]

I wonder if anyone actually does get offended if you wish them a "Merry Christmas" even if they aren’t Christian?

Thinking it through, the term Christmas is a label that in common usage refers to this time of the year, not a particular Christian Mass so who could be offended by being wished "Have a Merry "this time of year"?

If someone is offended by the use of "Christmas" to refer to this time of the year I wonder if they also object to the names of the days of the week? After all most of the English words for the days have ancient religious significance.

[TragicMonkey]

Offense is where you choose to take it. I don't mind if people wish me Merry Ramadan, Happy Solstice, or Joyful Walrus. If they wished me Unhappy Christmas or Miserable Hannukah, I might have cause for upset. (Although actually, I would be tickled, and respond with "And a Damnable Cthulhu-tide to you as well!")

If people want to wish you well, it's stupid to expect them to quiz you on your cultural, ethnic, and religious background first to check for suitability.

[Flaherty]

Originally posted by tommyz
How, then, would I greet an atheist at this time of year?

I prefer a hearty "Heil Hitler!" People tend to get out of your way after that.

[Ashles]

I think this is an interesting point by Darat:
Thinking it through, the term Christmas is a label that in common usage refers to this time of the year, not a particular Christian Mass so who could be offended by being wished "Have a Merry "this time of year"?

If someone is offended by the use of "Christmas" to refer to this time of the year I wonder if they also object to the names of the days of the week? After all most of the English words for the days have ancient religious significance.

It's the same as wishing someone a nice weekend.
And I'm not going to worry about offending shift workers.:)

[steenkh]

I thought the real PC version of "Happy Holiday" was "Season's Greetings" :o

[c4ts]

Have a merry Christmas, a happy Hannukah, a kwazy Kwanzaa, a tip-top Tet, a super Saturnalia, and a very solemn and dignified Ramadan.

May Great Cthulhu devour you in peace.

[sophia8]

Originally posted by Ashles

Example - in England there have been a few attempts to ban certain Christmas trappings in certain places so as not to be offensive to other religions or beliefs.
These attempts have not been made by the people who will alegedly be offended but by misguided middle-class white Christians who tend to see offense just about everywhere.
Cite, please.
AFAIK, this is a UL. What happened is that the Mail, or some similar rag, found out that Red Cross charity shops don't display manger scenes, or anything else that smacks of Christianity. This is because the Red Cross charter specifically states that they must not show any religious bias. (They still put up decorations, though, and don't forbid staff from saying "happy Christmas".)
But of course, the Mail, in typical fashion, decided this was middle-class PC liberals pandering to Muslim sensitivities (getting two DM bogies in one go) , and it's the UL version of events that has stuck in peoples' minds ever since.

ETS: c4ts, Ramadan was last October and as it's a fast, it's not exactly something that anyone would celebrate anyway - try "Happy Eid" instead (although you'd be nearly 2 months late).

[Ashles]

Well here's one cite (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4102277.stm)
I have read other examples in various papers, but it's hard to know which if any you will accept.

At the last place I worked I wasn't allowed to put christmas decorations up for this very reason.

It may be a tiny minority, but let's not pretend it doesn't happen.

[alfaniner]

Perhaps it's due to the recent release of the Seinfeld DVD's, but I have noticed an increased reference to "Happy Festivus (for the rest of us)" in many jokes and greetings this year. Who knows, maybe it will eventually be absorbed into the world's consciousness and become the major PC greeting!!

[El Greco]

Since the winter solstice marks the beginning of summer, I'll be happy if you wish me "Happy Summer". Actually you can keep wishing "Happy Summer" to me all year round and I'll never be offended.

[sophia8]

Originally posted by Ashles
Well here's one cite (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4102277.stm)
That's a very weak one. So some schools didn't put on Nativity Plays - so what? As the comments below the report illustrate, there could be a variety of reasons for it - teachers not having enough time, for a start.
An awful lot of people are using this whole "not allowed to celebrate Christmas" storm-in-a-manger fuss to air their racist prejudices, viz "We have Diwali and Ramadaneverywhere for the ethnics, but us indigenous people can't celebrate our own religion!"
Sheesh, nobody's stopping anyone from following their own faith here. If these people really want a display of ickle baby Jeezuz and his Mum at Christmas that much, they'd stick up a Nativity scene in their front garden and invite the neighbours to a Nativity play in their front room!

[Ashles]

It sounds like you are airing prejudices of your own here.

I never said this was widespread, I was merely using the very few cases where it has happened as an illustration that the problem is with the people who are complaining.

Or are you saying it doesn't happen, period?

[tommyz]

Thanks for the very interesting and lively replies, folks!



Now does anyone know if James Randi's employees, interns and other staff members get any days off for Christmas and/or Hanukah? How about for Good Friday? And other religious holidays? Just because one is atheist doesn't necessarily mean that he/she has to "force" his beliefs on his employees who may not necessarily agree with him...

Look at it this way: An atheist friend of mine from high school always referred to Good Friday as being "good" because he always got the day off. :D Me? I was always grateful to Jewish people because without them, I wouldn't have THEIR days off. Yup, those were the good 'ol days of high school. But in the business world where I work now, we only get the secular holidays off; the only one being Christmas.

Maybe we could all get a petition going requesting ALL businesses be closed for ALL religious holidays, no? :D

[plindboe]

Personally I have never met, or heard of an atheist that refused to celebrate Christmas because of his non-belief. I'm an atheist and I believe my mother, father and brother are too, but we celebrate Christmas, and we even sing Christmas songs about Jesus, while dancing around the tree. It's a great tradition, and one doesn't have to believe in God, just like one doesn't have to believe in Santa, to celebrate it.

It seems, to me, that you have some prejudice about atheists being more fanatical than they actually are, correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, drop that PC silliness. If people choose to become oftended because of your usage of the word Christmas it's their problem, not yours.

[sophia8]

Originally posted by Ashles
It sounds like you are airing prejudices of your own here.

I never said this was widespread, I was merely using the very few cases where it has happened as an illustration that the problem is with the people who are complaining.

Or are you saying it doesn't happen, period?
OK, dear, Mummy will sit down and explain this to you - I promise I won't be using any big words!
Yes, some schools don't put on Nativity Plays any more, for several different reasons - the poor teachers have too much to do, there are too many little children to be given parts, and so on.
And some people who are bosses don't like the people who work for them wasting time and money putting up Christmassy decorations - the meanies!
But this doesn't happen very often - you can still go and see ickle baby Jesus in his manger next Christmas - Mummy promises!
Now, there are some people who complain very loudly about some schools not putting on Nativity Plays, and some meanie bosses not letting people decorate their offices. These people say that they are concerned that not having Nativity Plays or lovely Christmas decorations that say Happy Christmas, or ickle baby Jesus manger scenes in shops, when all those Hindu and Muslim people can put up decorations when they have a big festival. They say that means that this country is trying to get rid of Christianity and make us celebrate all those Hindu and Muslim festivals instead.
But what they really want to say is that all those brown-coloured people who are not Christians, and all those Muslim people should not be here!
These silly people say that they are Christians, but - well! I've never seen any of them at the school Nativity Play, or helping to put up the ickle baby Jesus's manger scene outside the church, or singing carols in the church. Have you?

[tommyz]

Originally posted by plindboe
It seems, to me, that you have some prejudice about atheists being more fanatical than they actually are, correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks plindboe. You really want my honest answer? Both yes and no. No to the extent other than to simply satifsy my own curiosity about other people's perspectives on the holidays and to make me more worldly and knowledgeable. But yes to the extent that I can't stand stubborn, narrow minded individuals...and just to be fair, there is that kind of element in EVERY coterie, clique or group of people --wheter theists or atheists. You know...the kind of individuals that can really sour your day for the SILLIEST and TRIVIAL of all reasons. For example, I at one time got publicly lambasted for saying a simple "God bless you" in response to somebody sneezing only to have an obdurate atheist shout at me WOULD YOU PLEASE NOT MENTION THAT ******* WORD EVERY TIME SOMEBODY SNEEZES! GOD DOES NOT BLESS! OK! THANK YOU!

The funny thing was, she (the atheist b*tch!) wasn't even the one who sneezed! To really add insult to injury, this took place in my place of employment! Ugh! Talk about an UGLY situation! But that's OK...she got in deep trouble, I didn't!:D

It's one thing to think and feel that way and to express it a civil and socially respectable manner. Whatever you think, it's alright by me; I'm certainly not going to get upset at you! But it's a whole different ball of wax when one crosses that line and turns his/her tenents as an excuse to harrass and/or publicly bash another person's ego (who doesn't feel the same way) in public. I just want to take the necessary steps to avoid future incidents such as these from ever happening again (although sometimes they are impossible to avoid) which is the reason why I now say just "Bless You" instead of "God Bless You."

[Beleth]

Okay, look.

There's this holiday where Christians celebrate the birth of their Savior.

There's also this holiday which started with the pagan celebration of the winter solstice.

There's a third holiday which is dedicated to consumerism and buying presents for everyone we know.

Three separate holidays.

The problem is, they're all called Christmas, and they're all celebrated on December 25.

[Ashles]

OK, dear, Mummy will sit down and explain this to you - I promise I won't be using any big words!
Well my point was actually that it's not an issue that people really should get particularly worked up about in the first instance.
But there are a small minority who do and the issues there are certainly with them.

Thank you for making my point.

[Peter S.]

"No one knows what to say to Atheists at Christmas time. For Christians you say,'Merry Christmas', for Jews you say, 'Happy Hannukah', fot Atheists you say, 'Geez, it's cold out'"

Anthony Clark

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by Anders
HI, I'm a hardcore atheist, with some agnostic view thrown in.


Then you are apparently a softcore hardcore atheist...


;)

[BPScooter]

Sophia8 and thread readers, I apologize that I haven't yet figured out how to quote but the things in "" marks are what I'm trying to respnd to

"OK, dear, Mummy will sit down and explain this to you - I promise I won't be using any big words!"...

"But this doesn't happen very often - you can still go and see ickle baby Jesus in his manger next Christmas - Mummy promises!"...


"They say that means that this country is trying to get rid of Christianity and make us celebrate all those Hindu and Muslim festivals instead.
But what they really want to say is that all those brown-coloured people who are not Christians, and all those Muslim people should not be here!
These silly people say that they are Christians, but - well! I've never seen any of them at the school Nativity Play, or helping to put up the ickle baby Jesus's manger scene outside the church, or singing carols in the church. Have you?"...

This is a really offensive and derogatory tone. The use of "baby talk" like Mummy and ickle just turns my tone up a notch. If you want to hear what "we" might say, then you are taking an awfully strange way about it.

The last one, that implies that those that don't agree with you are racist or in any other way serving an anti-white/European view is very inflammatory. I for one have seen, in North America, many non-whites with very Catholic views. I have taught in schools, and even been a part of music programs in elementary schools as a teacher. So my answer to your last question, is "yes," I have seen such things, not really been into it myself, but there are many Catholics among the Hispanic community here that should not be so easily dismissed with baby talk. You might be in another country, so that can explain things. But still, it seems like you are going a little too far.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by steenkh
I thought the real PC version of "Happy Holiday" was "Season's Greetings" :o
That sounds like saying hello to your spice.

[JLam]

That sounds like saying hello to your spice

No, that would be "Seasoning's Greetings"

My fiancee and I are both athiests, but we both enjoy traditional Christmas songs, and she LOVES country music, laden as it is with Jesus and God references...she even sings along.

In my opinion, any athiest who gives another person crap about what he/she believes is just as bad as the evangelical Christian who--despite your repeated requests not to--continues to warn you that your soul is going to burn unless you're born again.

If everyone just minded thier own damn business and didn't worry about what invisible being Bob and Jane across the street worship, we would all be better off.

[steenkh]

Actually, I would draw the line of tolerance at the participation of my child in a nativity play! They are fortunately not common in Denmark, but I regard them as gross indoctrination of the children.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by jlam4911
No, that would be "Seasoning's Greetings"

I did say "like".... ;)

[plindboe]

Originally posted by tommyz
Thanks plindboe. You really want my honest answer? Both yes and no. No to the extent other than to simply satifsy my own curiosity about other people's perspectives on the holidays and to make me more worldly and knowledgeable. But yes to the extent that I can't stand stubborn, narrow minded individuals...and just to be fair, there is that kind of element in EVERY coterie, clique or group of people --wheter theists or atheists. You know...the kind of individuals that can really sour your day for the SILLIEST and TRIVIAL of all reasons. For example, I at one time got publicly lambasted for saying a simple "God bless you" in response to somebody sneezing only to have an obdurate atheist shout at me WOULD YOU PLEASE NOT MENTION THAT ******* WORD EVERY TIME SOMEBODY SNEEZES! GOD DOES NOT BLESS! OK! THANK YOU!

Indeed there are morons like that among theists as among atheists. Btw, are you sure she was an atheist? She could easily be a christian who got pissed off because you broke the third commandment.


Originally posted by tommyz
It's one thing to think and feel that way and to express it a civil and socially respectable manner. Whatever you think, it's alright by me; I'm certainly not going to get upset at you! But it's a whole different ball of wax when one crosses that line and turns his/her tenents as an excuse to harrass and/or publicly bash another person's ego (who doesn't feel the same way) in public. I just want to take the necessary steps to avoid future incidents such as these from ever happening again (although sometimes they are impossible to avoid) which is the reason why I now say just "Bless You" instead of "God Bless You."

She does indeed sound like a real idiot. The thing is that there are idiots everywhere, and it's not our fault they are idiots. You shouldn't correct your ways because of one such person.

I bet there are morons out there who will get upset if you say "bless you" as well. You can use "Gesundheit" but I recently read a post about a christian who freaked out because someone had said "gesundheit" to him instead of "bless you". It doesn't matter what you say, if you open your mouth there will be the occasional nutter who will get upset by it.

[Blondin]

I don't understand why you should say "bless you" or "Gesundheit" or anything else when somebody sneezes. Do you feel the need to bless them when they burp, cough or fart?

I would consider it good manners if the sneezer said "excuse me" or "I beg your pardon" (or "baking powder" if they are Jim Carrey fans). To me saying "bless you" when somebody sneezes is like saying "bread & butter" when two people walk on either side of a tree or throwing salt over your shoulder if you spill some or any of those superstitious practices.

I have to admit it kind of bugs me when somebody blesses me for sneezing
...but I wouldn't throw a hissy fit.

To answer your original question the only thing that irks me about the whole Merry Christmas/Happy Whatever PC bullsh!t is that anybody would worry about at all. I am an atheist and I say Merry Christmas and I like Christmas carols. If anybody doesn't like it I consider that their problem.

[sophia8]

BPScooter, I was actually addressing Ashles. He said he didn't understand the point I was making with my original post and wanted an explanation. So in my second post, I explained my point in simple language I believed he might understand.
Is that completely clear? Or do you need a further explanation of that?

[Darat]

Originally posted by Blondin
I don't understand why you should say "bless you" or "Gesundheit" or anything else when somebody sneezes. Do you feel the need to bless them when they burp, cough or fart?


Well I would tend to ignore a fart (it would be rude to bring attention to it), but a burp would probably get a "pardon you".

Originally posted by Blondin

I would consider it good manners if the sneezer said "excuse me" or "I beg your pardon" (or "baking powder" if they are Jim Carrey fans). To me saying "bless you" when somebody sneezes is like saying "bread & butter" when two people walk on either side of a tree or throwing salt over your shoulder if you spill some or any of those superstitious practices.

I have to admit it kind of bugs me when somebody blesses me for sneezing
...but I wouldn't throw a hissy fit.

...snip...



But isn’t a "beg your pardon" and so on just the same social lubricant of good manners as a "bless you"? Certainly for me when I say "bless you" it carries no religious connotations or thoughts that you've temporarily ejected your soul and it needs protection before it returns to your body.

[TheBoyPaj]

Originally posted by steenkh
Actually, I would draw the line of tolerance at the participation of my child in a nativity play! They are fortunately not common in Denmark, but I regard them as gross indoctrination of the children.

A di-lemon like that is sure to face me soon. I've agreed with my wife that my little girl is allowed to dress up as an angel and sing carols so long as I am allowed to tell her that it's just a story, just as if she was appearing in Puss In Boots or Cinderella.

[joobie]

Originally posted by Blondin
I don't understand why you should say "bless you" or "Gesundheit" or anything else when somebody sneezes.

because as a child i was taught that it was the polite thing to do, and it's a habit i have never broken.

[webfusion]

"Happy Festivus (for the rest of us)"

Been using it for a few years, seems to either draw a very confused look or a good laugh.

I'm not putting up a festivus pole however, that's where I draw the line.

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\
BTW, for those of you out there who are Eastern Orthodox -- Merry Christmas! (Jan 7th) especially to my Christian friends in Israel.

[Kilted_Canuck]

My parents and their friends are probably one of the few people that actually HAVE a festivus party, complete with pole and airing of grievances. :p

[BPScooter]

Ha ha!! Wasn't part of the Festivus celebration the "feats of strength?" I think so. I've used that line a few times, "now, for the Feats of Strength!" and it always seems to cause, well, some sort of reaction.

Sophia8, thanks for acknowledging, I quite understood your point and I would allow we probably disagree here. Likely we have seen and heard situations that are quite different.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by webfusion
"Happy Festivus (for the rest of us)"

Been using it for a few years, seems to either draw a very confused look or a good laugh.

I'm not putting up a festivus pole however, that's where I draw the line.

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\
BTW, for those of you out there who are Eastern Orthodox -- Merry Christmas! (Jan 7th) especially to my Christian friends in Israel.

I'd rather put up the pole than wrestle my old man. It's a good flavor of ice cream, though.

[BPScooter]

Gotta mention the South Park episode where everyone gets very offended by anything remotely Christmas-y, it's the Mr. Hanky episode (if you eat fiber on Christmas Eve, etc.) Kyle's song is great, but the real gut bust laugh for me was the non-denominational program, with Philip Glass. That was really, really funny to me. Happy nothing, here's some minimalist music, enjoy... ;-)

[Psi Baba]

Happy Twelfth-Night everyone!

Old apple tree, we'll wassail thee,
And hoping thou wilt bear.
The Lord does know where we shall be
To be merry anither year.
To blow well and to bear well,
And so merry let us be;
Let ev'ry man drink up his cup
And health to the apple tree.

[Rascal]

Originally posted by plindboe
Personally I have never met, or heard of an atheist that refused to celebrate Christmas because of his non-belief.

I guess it depends on your definition of "celebrate." I'm an atheist, and I certainly don't celebrate the holiday in any way, shape or form. The house has no decorations, we don't take part in gift swapping, and if there's any music playing it's likely to be the Ramones rather than Andy Williams. I don't believe in the religious side of the holiday and I find the obligatory consumerism side to be rather silly. So no, I find nothing at all to celebrate about Dec. 25.

I do, however, fully acknowledge the holiday and that it's a pretty big deal to most everyone else. I gladly accept the day off from work as a paid holiday and I have no qualms about the trays of cookies passed around in the weeks prior. Nothing about it really offends me... I just choose not to take part.

OK, I do have one complaint. What would otherwise be a great day to get some work done on the house is hampered by Home Depot being closed.

[Phrost]

The Brights need their own holiday.

Any nominations?

[ralphmerridew]

The Brights need their own holiday.

Any nominations?

How about Agnostica (http://agnostica.com)?

Created by Darren Bluel in 2000, it is the only holiday devoted to scientific progress.