"WhiteNoise" - EVP upsurge?

[jmercer]

First time poster... been reading the forums for a few days, and sitting around in total shock at some of the stuff I've read. My cynical side is rejoicing, but the rest of me is still in shock about how delusional people can be. :D

Anyway, I was getting my webmail and saw this pop-up lead for a new movie called "Whitenoise". I followed the link, saw the preview and read the premise... and I was wondering. Do movie releases like this cause a surge in these kinds of claims here at JREF?

Here's a link to the official movie website, who also has some "information" about Electronic Voice Phenomena on a timeline. (Slick marketing, for sure.)

http://www.whitenoisemovie.com/

[Yaotl]

It seems to cause some debate, but it's usually the skeptics who bring it up.

I think EVP is crap, but that commercial is scaring the bejeebus out of my wife.

[davidhorman]

There's been a fair bit of discussion on the IMDb message board for this particular movie, and I'm pleased to say a lot of it was rational and sceptical.

One woman posted a clip of some EVP she recorded in 1977. It wasn't long before someone cleaned it up, sped it up (it was a brand tape and the tension probably wasn't taken up properly) to reveal the chilling phrase: "C'mon Tanya, we're gonna be late!"

:D

There's been the usual media coverage here on the daytime shows. Richard & Judy were their usual pandering selves, but Fern and Phil (This Morning) continually pointed out how difficult it is to discern anything at all.

David

[Lisa Simpson]

Mr. Cranky (http://www.mrcranky.com/movies/whitenoise.html) gave the movie the "dynamite" rating, i.e. "So godawful that it ruptured the very fabric of space and time with the sheer overpowering force of its mediocrity."

My favorite line:

The fact that Jonathan Rivers (Michael Keaton) is going to be EVPeed on by his dead-at-first-plot-point wife ...

EVPeed on...:D

[Dr Adequate]

Welcome to the forums, jmercer!

Stuff about EVP (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50222)

Are the EVP people related to the my-digital-camera-takes-photographs-of-the-spirit-world woowoos?

The Miracle Of Faulty Electronic Equipment. I like it. It's got that proper mystical feel.

[chrisberez]

I've been watching the forums to see if there's a more-than-average surge of woo-woo claims too, ever since the commercials for that movie started running.

I stated in a thread about this posted in the media section that I'm disgusted by the marketing campaign. I was planing on not seeing the movie based purely on the fact that the studio is encouraging the load of crap that is EVP; after reading the reviews I realize I don't even have to go that far. Apparently the flick blows big time.

Anyway, I want to add my voice to the chorus of welcomes that you're sure to receive, jmercer. Good to have ya here.

[Azrael 5]

Due to the movie coming out in UK today housewives fav. morning show "This Morning" had as a guest an expert in this phenomena,a woman Tina Laurentwho has been studying this for 23 years;she brought some tapes in of said phenomena which were played.Presenter Philip Schofield and Lorraine Kelly(hereafter known as P and L and TL for expert)even showed some signs of skepticism! Heres a transcript:

(Clip of movie is shown)
P:"Tina Laurent is an expert in the field and has been working with this for about 23 years,and has brought some tapes with her.That clip was hollywood's take on it,and we've seen it before in Poltergeist.Hollywood's are terribly clear,the things we are going to listen to are very,very difficult to understand.Why if there are people trying to get into conatct with us are they making it so hard to make themselves known?"

TL "Well,there are various reasons..Hollywood style the true voices have gone through audio filters(what???? its a film!)also listening out for EVP is an art to be learned.Not all of them are class A loud and clar,they're not."
P "Skeptics would say "TVs and radios-things that generate white noise are broadcast devices,so therefore are quite capable of picking up spurious signals,left right and centre.Something that is being broadcast somewhere.So what you are listening to -what youre tuning in to is in the air,is being broadcast from somewhere"
TL "And what is in the air comes back and says your name and answers your questions,and says "Philip youve put a blue shirt on this morning" "
L "How do you know that? Have you heard that yourself?
TL "Of course..Ive heard similiar things"
L "How did you know? How did you get into that in the first place?What was the first indication/"
TL "Twenty three years ago I read about a woman called Sarah Aesop(sp?)not far from me who was getting voices of spirits,of dead people on her tape recorderI read this article and thought wow why isnt everyone doing it ? So I called her up went to visit her,listened to her voices,fell in love with them;the personalities behind these voices?"
P "Whas it the same people saying different things?"
TL "Many people saying different things.At the time 23 years ago,the ones I heard on Sarah's tape were calling out for her,many many of them"
L "What are they after?"
TL "They want us to know that they stil exsist,basically."

Three segments of recording are played first from American Angela Brown who died in 1999,you hear a clear voice amongst the noise,one phrase that sounded to me like it was being looped.Its not made clear if thats the intention or wether the spirit repeats the message.The on screen words are Get out of my house
P "Its saying get out of my house..or there's a white mouse,for people who want to communicate with you she could have been clearer..she's whispering."
TL "Its the method by which she chooses to speak,there are many methods in which they come through on the recorder,and according to the method is the type,the loudness of the voice."
Second audio clip is utter crap,its of a dead girl who contacted her Mum 6 months after she died.Supposed to say "Wheres Mom?"
L "Dont you think there's a strond desire to contact the dead?people have lost someone and if they heard something that was a bit fuzzy,you would give it meaning"
TL "Yes maybe..but there's also a strong desire on the part of the deceased entity to get through too.The voices have been brought up,brought out[electronically]"
P What about the ones that are played backwards? You thinkyou really are making it difficult to communicate now.We've got to find the right frequency of white noise,find out what you're saying and then play it backwards. Why make it so tough?
Next up is Nancy Redwood(deceased,natch)from Cardiff and she is in regular contact with Tina Laurent apparently.Er....no idea how anyone can make out anything in that,as it was just mush.But apparently the spirit is saying her own name.Last one was some woman from Enfield House saying "get out get out who the hell are you?"

This post loses it without audio clips,but I dunno how to convert from my dvd to PC.:D

[Mercutio]

Michael Keaton (in the movie) was on Letterman last night...I would be glad to report on what he said, but I turned it off when I heard "I just thought it was a great premise for a movie, but it turns out that there are a lot of scientists who are studying it and say it's real...." *click*

Great--"I was skeptical, but am convinced. What's more, lots of scientists believe it too!" For what percentage of the public will this translate directly into "it is a scientifically proven phenomenon!"?

[Ashles]

And do they ever mention the names of these sientists? (you know, just so the rest of the scientific community can laugh at them)
No.

After all A HOLLYWOOD STAR has declared that SCIENTISTS believe in it.

For most people facts don't come any more incontrovertible than that.

[chrisberez]

Originally posted by Mercutio
Michael Keaton (in the movie) was on Letterman last night...I would be glad to report on what he said, but I turned it off when I heard "I just thought it was a great premise for a movie, but it turns out that there are a lot of scientists who are studying it and say it's real...." *click*

Great--"I was skeptical, but am convinced. What's more, lots of scientists believe it too!" For what percentage of the public will this translate directly into "it is a scientifically proven phenomenon!"?

Yeah, it bugs me when this sort of thing happens too. There's a video game called "Psy-Ops: The Mindgate Conspiracey". It's actually quite a good game (the physics engine is remarkable), but that's not why I bring it up. In the game your character uses various psychic powers to defeat enemies. But included on the dvd are several special features, including one where the games developers describe how they conducted research and found out that the U.S. government has/is conducting serious research into these phenomena, and that these kinds of powers really have/are being used.

*grimace*

Originally posted by Ashles
And do they ever mention the names of these sientists? (you know, just so the rest of the scientific community can laugh at them)
No.


Yeah, funny, that.
"I conducted research into this, although I can't remember the exact sources, and I read testimoney from many credible scientists, although I can't remember their names."

Oh, well, fantastic! That's all the evidence I need. If a guy who chooses scripts like "Jack Frost" and "Multiplicity" says it's true, then that's all I need. Thanks, Michael Keaton!

On a side note, I'm not saying he's a bad actor. But judging from his work the past 10 years, one would think he'd hired a third grader as his agent.

[Azrael 5]

Heres a link to an article.Apparently the film was based on some of the details http://nsnlb.us.publicus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041031/NEWS01/110310113/-1/news ;)

[jmercer]

Originally posted by chrisberez
Yeah, it bugs me when this sort of thing happens too. There's a video game called "Psy-Ops: The Mindgate Conspiracey". It's actually quite a good game (the physics engine is remarkable), but that's not why I bring it up. In the game your character uses various psychic powers to defeat enemies. But included on the dvd are several special features, including one where the games developers describe how they conducted research and found out that the U.S. government has/is conducting serious research into these phenomena, and that these kinds of powers really have/are being used.
Probably a hold-over from the cold war apocryphal tales.

Supposedly, the US government went into a panic when they got reports that the Soviet Union was seriously pursuing military/espionage uses for psychics, and started up their own "black ops research".

Given the money and time put into Project Blue Book, I suppose it's not impossible that the US government might put money into something as stupid as that - but I certainly never heard any concrete evidence of either a USSR or US "Psychic program" ever existed.

One would think that given the details about various "hard" secrets that have emerged as time went on (F-117, B2 Spirit, even the Manhatten Project) that something like a psychic weapons program (failed, naturally!) would have emerged.

Unless it did and we all had our minds wiped... :rolleyes:

Thanks for the welcome, btw. :)

[Tompet]

Hubby and I went to see "White Noise" today, and IT MAKES NO SENSE!! Plotholes you could drive a truck through, and the ending is absolutely ridiculous. It only cost us $8 bucks cause we went to a matinee, but we should have waited for it to appear on cable. I'll admit it wasn't nearly as boring as "Mothman Prophecies", but other than that, THUMBS DOWN !!

[walthrup48]

Originally posted by Azrael 5
Due to the movie coming out in UK today housewives fav. morning show "This Morning" had as a guest an expert in this phenomena,a woman Tina Laurentwho has been studying this for 23 years;she brought some tapes in of said phenomena which were played.Presenter Philip Schofield and Lorraine Kelly(hereafter known as P and L and TL for expert)even showed some signs of skepticism! Heres a transcript:

(Clip of movie is shown)
P:"Tina Laurent is an expert in the field and has been working with this for about 23 years,and has brought some tapes with her.That clip was hollywood's take on it,and we've seen it before in Poltergeist.Hollywood's are terribly clear,the things we are going to listen to are very,very difficult to understand.Why if there are people trying to get into conatct with us are they making it so hard to make themselves known?"

TL "Well,there are various reasons..Hollywood style the true voices have gone through audio filters(what???? its a film!)also listening out for EVP is an art to be learned.Not all of them are class A loud and clar,they're not."
P "Skeptics would say "TVs and radios-things that generate white noise are broadcast devices,so therefore are quite capable of picking up spurious signals,left right and centre.Something that is being broadcast somewhere.So what you are listening to -what youre tuning in to is in the air,is being broadcast from somewhere"
TL "And what is in the air comes back and says your name and answers your questions,and says "Philip youve put a blue shirt on this morning" "
L "How do you know that? Have you heard that yourself?
TL "Of course..Ive heard similiar things"
L "How did you know? How did you get into that in the first place?What was the first indication/"
TL "Twenty three years ago I read about a woman called Sarah Aesop(sp?)not far from me who was getting voices of spirits,of dead people on her tape recorderI read this article and thought wow why isnt everyone doing it ? So I called her up went to visit her,listened to her voices,fell in love with them;the personalities behind these voices?"
P "Whas it the same people saying different things?"
TL "Many people saying different things.At the time 23 years ago,the ones I heard on Sarah's tape were calling out for her,many many of them"
L "What are they after?"
TL "They want us to know that they stil exsist,basically."

Three segments of recording are played first from American Angela Brown who died in 1999,you hear a clear voice amongst the noise,one phrase that sounded to me like it was being looped.Its not made clear if thats the intention or wether the spirit repeats the message.The on screen words are Get out of my house
P "Its saying get out of my house..or there's a white mouse,for people who want to communicate with you she could have been clearer..she's whispering."
TL "Its the method by which she chooses to speak,there are many methods in which they come through on the recorder,and according to the method is the type,the loudness of the voice."
Second audio clip is utter crap,its of a dead girl who contacted her Mum 6 months after she died.Supposed to say "Wheres Mom?"
L "Dont you think there's a strond desire to contact the dead?people have lost someone and if they heard something that was a bit fuzzy,you would give it meaning"
TL "Yes maybe..but there's also a strong desire on the part of the deceased entity to get through too.The voices have been brought up,brought out[electronically]"
P What about the ones that are played backwards? You thinkyou really are making it difficult to communicate now.We've got to find the right frequency of white noise,find out what you're saying and then play it backwards. Why make it so tough?
Next up is Nancy Redwood(deceased,natch)from Cardiff and she is in regular contact with Tina Laurent apparently.Er....no idea how anyone can make out anything in that,as it was just mush.But apparently the spirit is saying her own name.Last one was some woman from Enfield House saying "get out get out who the hell are you?"

This post loses it without audio clips,but I dunno how to convert from my dvd to PC.:D Have no fear, Jim's here.

Examples from the interview transcribed above (all in mp3 format). They are looped:
Get out of my house (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jimmy13/EVPs/EVP-GetOutOfMyHouse.mp3)
Where's Mom? (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jimmy13/EVPs/EVP-WheresMom.mp3)
Nancy Redood (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jimmy13/EVPs/EVP-NancyRedwood.mp3) (NB: The presenter asks "What's she saying there?" halfway through.)
Go out go out who the hell's with you? (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jimmy13/EVPs/EVP-GoOutGoOutWhoTheHellsWithYou.mp3)

Now, more samples played during Judith Chisholm's interview on the Richard and Judy show. No prompting this time, I'll post what Chisholm claims they say at a later date.

EVP1 (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jimmy13/EVPs/EVP1-Have_a_Guess.mp3) - A message from Chisholm's dead friend, Jack Hallam.
EVP2 (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jimmy13/EVPs/EVP2-Have_a_Guess.mp3) - A participant asked "Can you not ...", the spirits finished the sentence for him.
EVP3 (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jimmy13/EVPs/EVP3-Have_a_Guess.mp3)

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Ashles
And do they ever mention the names of these sientists? (you know, just so the rest of the scientific community can laugh at them)
No.

After all A HOLLYWOOD STAR has declared that SCIENTISTS believe in it.

For most people facts don't come any more incontrovertible than that.

I disagree. Popular culture is a reflection of common belief, not a source.

[Zep]

Victor Zammit should be just about at orgasm over this by now...

[Azrael 5]

Thanks for that Jim.No doubt Richard and Judy were far less skeptical than their erstwhile rivals philip and Fern.:D

[Azrael 5]

Thought this qoute on AAEVP website was more telling than the writer realised.

In the Summer 1988 AA-EVP NewsJournal, Sarah Estep ran a brief review of the CETL newsletter written by Jules and Maggie Harsch-Fischbach in Luxembourg. The couple believed that experimenters could attract positive as well as negative contacts. They quoted a comment made by pioneer researcher Dr. Konstantin Raudive. Raudive said, “Transcommunication is not a hobby for people who can’t cope with the realities of life.�
http://www.whitenoisemovie.com/mirror/full/articles/articles_about_safety.htm ;)

[geni]

Well the people over at supernatual world forums seem to like it:

http://www.thesupernaturalworld.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=5125&hl=

EVP seems to have been popular for a while. This is probably because recording devices are cheap and there is a good chance you will got something. Simular to orbs in apeal (ie you can get your own).

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

From Mr. Cranky:
Frankly, I'd have rather spent those 40 minutes in a Greyhound station sampling bum vomit.
I don't think he liked it.

~~ Paul

[Ashles]

Popular culture is a reflection of common belief, not a source.
This isn't true. The consistency of alien abduction stories has only happened since the media and popular programming has shown so many "greys" and gone into so much detail about abduction experiences.

Peopls aren't born inherently believing that aliens look like greys - for most people it is learned from the media. They then incorporate this into their belief system about about aliens.

Most alien believers talk about the captured alien bodies at Roswell. This was only an invention of the eighties. For over 30 years this never existed as a myth. Then (I think) the story was published in a book or film and all of a sudden it became widely believed 'fact'.

Who ever believed that LA gangbangers follow you and shoot you if you flash them to let them know they are driving without lights? No-one, until the legend was started.

[geni]

Originally posted by Ashles
This isn't true. The consistency of alien abduction stories has only happened since the media and popular programming has shown so many "greys" and gone into so much detail about abduction experiences.

Peopls aren't born inherently believing that aliens look like greys - for most people it is learned from the media. They then incorporate this into their belief system about about aliens.


As an extension of this the technolgy seen in UFOs has changed from big leavers to LCDs over the years

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by c4ts
I disagree. Popular culture is a reflection of common belief, not a source.
The X-Files is amongst the sources most commonly cited by American university students (see F. Wheen, How Mumbo-Jumbo Conquered The World).

[Azrael 5]

Originally posted by geni
Well the people over at supernatual world forums seem to like it:

http://www.thesupernaturalworld.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=5125&hl=

EVP seems to have been popular for a while. This is probably because recording devices are cheap and there is a good chance you will got something. Simular to orbs in apeal (ie you can get your own).
If only I wasnt banned form even seeing that forum,I could tear their silly theories apart! Actually..no I wouldnt as one post and Id be banned anyway.Geni perhaps you might....?;)
Wonder if the people at ghostsuk are debating this...oh,Im banned there as well...lol

[geni]

Originally posted by Azrael 5
If only I wasnt banned form even seeing that forum,I could tear their silly theories apart! Actually..no I wouldnt as one post and Id be banned anyway.Geni perhaps you might....?;)

Not much in that particular thread. Anyway starburn still hangs around there so I think the forum is covered.

[Azrael 5]

Got a bizarre paranoid raving from webmaster of supernaturalworld recently! Ill PM it to you...:)

[jj]

Well, you know, colored (not white, please) noise can create an impression of indistinct voices, especially if it has a couple of spectral peaks near formant frequencies.

There's nothing new, surprising, or even moderately supernatural about that.

White noise is a constant, unchanging "hiss", so whatever they're talking about, it's not white noise.

White noise has equal energy per frequency.

Colored noise does not. Pink noise, the usual kind discussed, drops at 3dB/octave, and has equal energy per octave instead of per frequency. Taking pink noise and adding just a tiny bit of irregularity gets you a "sometimes speech-like experience".

Making such stuff synthetically is childs' play, read up on "LPC Coding" in Jayant and Noll's "Waveform Coding" book.

[Ashles]

That's interesting jj.

In fact in this article about White Noise (http://science.howstuffworks.com/question47.htm) it actually says:
Because white noise contains all frequencies, it is frequently used to mask other sounds. If you are in a hotel and voices from the room next-door are leaking into your room, you might turn on a fan to drown out the voices. The fan produces a good approximation of white noise. Why does that work? Why does white noise drown out voices?

White noise actually drowns out voices - so not a great way for spirits to communicate.

[jmercer]

Originally posted by Ashles
That's interesting jj.

In fact in this article about White Noise (http://science.howstuffworks.com/question47.htm) it actually says:


White noise actually drowns out voices - so not a great way for spirits to communicate.

Oh, I dunno. Considering the apparent urgent information people are getting via EVP from the great beyond, I'd say that white noise is a highly appropriate medium for that particular set of messages. :D

In fact, there are a couple of earthly voices I'd like to use white noise on, even as I write this...

[BPScooter]

As I recall, and as jj pointed out, white noise contains equal energy at all frequencies. Natural sounds contain very specific energies at very specific frequencies, and that's how our ears evolved, to be more sensitive to the important sounds (a footfall behind us in the forest, a rattlesnake, on and on). So white noise isn't used much except maybe by acousticians trying to "tune" a room, but really not even then. Too much wasted energy going into the creation of a sound that is not perceptually important. Maybe the occupational hazard people would use it, to make sure your ears aren't getting fried by something you aren't really reacting to.

But "pink" noise is better, because it follows the perceptual curve of what our ears pick up on. So I think that's how it works, it puts more "oomph" into the bands of frequencies we are most aware of. Isn't that what "A" weighting and "C" weighting are all about on a decibel meter? I think so.

As far as energy goes, it takes more to produce a loud low-frequency sound. That's why speakers have woofers and tweeter, partly, and why it takes a good big amp to run the home theaters and car stereos.

Sorry if I messed up, but I've been involved in music and audio for some time and this is what I remembered.

[jj]

Originally posted by Ashles
That's interesting jj.

In fact in this article about White Noise (http://science.howstuffworks.com/question47.htm) it actually says:


White noise actually drowns out voices - so not a great way for spirits to communicate.

Well, that's not entirely accurate, but it's not too far off. Strictly speaking, equal-energy noise in the first 20 critical bands would do the most to muck up voices, give or take.

It would do so by having the "feel" of a voice you can't make out, too.

It's tempting to do a "message" up in matlab, something like "there is no such thing as EVP"

[jj]

Originally posted by BPScooter
But "pink" noise is better, because it follows the perceptual curve of what our ears pick up on.


More or less, but certainly not exactly so, above 1kHz or so, and definitely not below that in any sense. On the other hand, pink noise is certainly a much better match to how our ears work than white noise, even if your analogy is off quite a bit.


So I think that's how it works, it puts more "oomph" into the bands of frequencies we are most aware of. Isn't that what "A" weighting and "C" weighting are all about on a decibel meter? I think so.


A, B, and C Message Weighting are, well, some attempts to do something with perception, but there are some not-so-great assumptions that come along for the ride. 'A' is roughly relating things to speech, and 'C' to more broadband signals, but neither is a really good measure of loudness (that's the internal representation in your head), although it does, of course, measure intensity (sound pressure level) reasonably well, given knowledge of the weighting curves.


As far as energy goes, it takes more to produce a loud low-frequency sound. That's why speakers have woofers and tweeter, partly, and why it takes a good big amp to run the home theaters and car stereos.


You're confusing the energy in the signal with what it takes to make a signal of a given energy, perhaps. Volume Velocity * f^2 is proportional to Sound Pressure for a source smaller than a wavelength, again give or take. That means that to create a 20Hz signal you have to move 16x as much air as you do for an 80Hz signal. With some speakers this can take different amounts of energy, but for a single driver that's tuned right, not a great deal different energy. A lot more cone motion at 20Hz, though.

Woofers and tweeters are necessary because of the need for volume velocity at low frequencies, and because woofer cone materials aren't nearly rigid or light enough at high frequencies.

The various drivers can be different in efficiency, the reason isn't as simple as what you say, though.


Sorry if I messed up, but I've been involved in music and audio for some time and this is what I remembered.

You're not far off.

If you have one of those old keyboards that you could sing into, have it take channel vocoder paramters from your voice, and then add white noise to the voder input, you could really make some cool EVP, couldn't you? :) I remember, many, many years ago, playing with such a device at an AES. I think it was, um, oh, I forget who made it.

[BPScooter]

Thanks, jj, I was off-the-cuff, there. I could tell you knew what you were talking about! My memories come from a class 20 yrs. ago and that's a long time!

The thing I'm most interested in is the perceptual part, the psychoacoustics. Again, I'm not up on it as much as many others, but here's something I thought was cool, about how we are able to perceive meaning in relatively undifferentiated sorts of sounds--

http://macserver.haskins.yale.edu/haskins/MISC/SWS/SWS.html

[jj]

Originally posted by BPScooter
Thanks, jj, I was off-the-cuff, there. I could tell you knew what you were talking about! My memories come from a class 20 yrs. ago and that's a long time!

The thing I'm most interested in is the perceptual part, the psychoacoustics. Again, I'm not up on it as much as many others, but here's something I thought was cool, about how we are able to perceive meaning in relatively undifferentiated sorts of sounds--

http://macserver.haskins.yale.edu/haskins/MISC/SWS/SWS.html

Well, that's a very nice resource given the subject. Thanks.

Anyone got an old keyboard/synth with the channel vocoder on it? That would make for some great demos of EVP :)

[joobie]

i'm just waiting for hollywood to make a movie about the coffee pot ghost (www.coffeepotghost.com).

edit - darn, looks like that page is gone. shucks.

[Azrael 5]

Originally posted by joobie
i'm just waiting for hollywood to make a movie about the coffee pot ghost (www.coffeepotghost.com).

edit - darn, looks like that page is gone. shucks.
No it hasnt. :)