Academic study of Texas English

[CurtC]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2027&e=7&u=/chitribts/yalllistenup

As someone who has lived in Texas all of my 43 years so far, let me just say that these researchers are full of it. A significant portion of this news story centers around this: But Texans, in a kind of defiant counterreaction to the mass appropriation of their beloved term [y'all], now also use it to refer to one person as well as many ("Y'all are my beautiful wife"), Tillery said.I have never, ever, heard anyone refer to a single person as "y'all," and I've lived in Texas from the woods in East Texas, where I was born, to the plains of West Texas, where I went to high school and college, to the big cities of North Texas. Using "y'all" to refer to one person would be a serious error in the dialect.

He also says that we say "'naht' for night and 'rahd' for ride." No we don't, we just pronounce the long-i sound different that he says it, and it's a completely different sound than "ah."

Sorry, I just had to rant.

[patnray]

I spent a month in Houston several years back installing some equipment. I heard y'all used as both singular and plural.

[Rolfe]

One of the things that always made me cringe as a child in the West of Scotland was the colloquial "youse" for you-plural. I, as an educated kid, knew that "you" was both plural and formal-singular, and that formal-singular was all-purpose usage in standard modern English. And that the real singular was "thou". (And another thing that bugged me was the minister in church saying "The Lord bless thee and keep thee" when there were two or more babies being baptised at once - and since the minister was my Dad you may be sure he heard about it.)

I've recently, I think, heard "youse" being used in the singular as well. This, and the example of so many languages where the original plural form takes over first as a formal usage and then gradually as everything, made me formulate the entirely amateur theory that any you-plural will eventually try to take over the singular somehow.

The "y'all" thing struck me as another similar example.

Rolfe.

[NoZed Avenger]

I saw that study, and agree largely with CurtC. I have lived in Texas all my life, and a huge number of the things it says do not strike me as correct at all.

Meybe there's an East-Texas or West Texas area that I am unfamiliar with that uses those expressions or says words that way, but they are hardly common.

N/A

[davefoc]

I had thought about the use of y'all exactly along the lines discussed here. It seems like the English language could use a word to allow the plural you to be differentiated from the singular you.

But as part of my linquistic studies on this issue (I've listened to a few southerners) I have noticed, much to my disappointment, that they use y'all for both singular and plural.

So it was news to me that any southerners don't just use y'all willy nilly. Now I am wondering if my sample size was too small and not regionally differentiated enough to support my conclusion. It seems that in CurtC's part of Texas y'all is being used in the way that makes sense to me, but I don't think I'm going to be throwing any y'all's into my speech anytime soon. I am still trying to work fortnight into a conversation in a natural way but when I need to say a word that represents two weeks, "two weeks" just pops out of me before I can remember to say fortnight.

As for youse, that sounds like it makes the most sense of all to represent the plural you, but it also sounds highly uneducated to my ear so my cultural biases will probably keep me from ever adopting this most logical word.

[a_unique_person]

I had a Canadian seriously tell me once that they don't say 'aboot'.

[materia3]

Originally posted by Rolfe
One of the things that always made me cringe as a child in the West of Scotland was the colloquial "youse" for you-plural. I, as an educated kid, knew that "you" was both plural and formal-singular, and that formal-singular was all-purpose usage in standard modern English. And that the real singular was "thou". (And another thing that bugged me was the minister in church saying "The Lord bless thee and keep thee" when there were two or more babies being baptised at once - and since the minister was my Dad you may be sure he heard about it.)

I've recently, I think, heard "youse" being used in the singular as well. This, and the example of so many languages where the original plural form takes over first as a formal usage and then gradually as everything, made me formulate the entirely amateur theory that any you-plural will eventually try to take over the singular somehow.

The "y'all" thing struck me as another similar example.

Rolfe.


I was wondering where youse came from. It is occurs in both Brooklynese and Bronxese. but thought it had its origins in Australian. Here is a letter from Bill Gates written in Brooklynese:



Dear Consumas:

It has come ta our attention dat a coupola copies of the Windows (Brooklyn Edition) may have accidentally bin shipped outsida Brooklyn. If ya got one a dese, you may need some help understandin' da commands.

Da Brooklyn edition may be recognized by da unique openin' screen. It reads: "Windas" wit a background picture of Grand Army Plaza. When you start da program, instead of da usual "harpy, stringy" music, you hear da teme from da Godfadda. It is also shipped wit a Sopranos screen sava.

Please also note:

-Recycle Bin is labeled "Staten Island."

-My Computer is called "My Friggin' Computa."

-The Inbox is referred to as "Da Trunk."

- Deleted Items are referred to as "Wacked," "Erased," or "Rubbed Out."

- Dial up Networking is called "Da Bar."

- Control Panel is known as the "Da Bosses."

- Performin' an "illegal operation" is known as "enhancin' the family business" and will actually maximize da program instead of shuttin' it down.

- Hard Drive is referred to as "Da BQE Rush Hour."

- Instead of an error message a "You ain't gonna friggin' believe dis!" pops up.

CHANGES IN TERMINOLOGY IN DA BROOKLYN EDITION:

OK...................Sure ting
Cancel............Fugetaboutit
Reset.............Start Ova
Yes.................Yeah
No...................Nah
Find................Put a contract out on
Browse..........Get a looksee
Back...............U toin
Help................(Help ain't available - yous don't need no stinkin' help)
Stop................Knock it off
Start...............Move it!
Settings.........Here's d' Rules

Also note dat any voice recognition software run on da Brooklyn Edition platform don't recognize da letter "R."

Some programs and udder accessories dat are exclusive ta Windas:

Typa...................A word processin' program
Printa.................Printer
Calculata...........Calculator
Solitare.............Seven Card Stud

We regret any inconvenience it may have caused if you received a copy of da Brooklyn Edition. You may return it to Microsoft for a replacement version.

Yous got a problem wit dat?

Sincerely (yeah, I can spel dat),

BILL ("4 eyes") GATES

http://www.geocities.com/buddychai2/Brooklyn/Bklynese.html

[fishbob]

I was born and raised in South Texas - near Shiner, lived in Austin, Houston, and DFW.

From the article:
"A glossary of Texas Twang "

Y'all: You-all (can be used as singular or plural). - never heard y'all used as singular.

Croker sack: Burlap sack. - never heard of a croker sack. We called them 'grass sacks'.

Snake feeder: Dragonfly. - never heard of a snake feeder. A dragonfly was a dragon fly.

Mosquito hawk: Dragonfly. - a mosquito hawk is a nighthawk, which is a bull bat, which is a type of bird.

Snap beans: Green beans - OK

Light bread: White bread. - OK - There were 2 choices when I was a kid - light bread or corn bread.

Flitter: Pancake. - never heard of a flitter.

Corn dodgers: Hushpuppies. - never heard of corn dodgers.

Pulleybone: Wishbone. OK

Polecat: Skunk. OK

Cold drink: Soda pop. cold drinks are beer. Sodas are cokes.

Tank: Pond. OK

Dinner on the ground: Potluck dinner. - never heard of it.


But in other ways, Texas English is expanding. Newcomers to the state soon begin sounding like Texans, Bailey noted, tossing around y'alls and saying "Ahma fixin' to" (generally defined as "I will do it if I get around to it").

Well, there is the answer. The dummies were interviewing newcomers. And he got his definition of 'fixin to' wrong. Is means getting ready to do something.

[CurtC]

Originally posted by patnray I spent a month in Houston several years back installing some equipment. I heard y'all used as both singular and plural.A few years ago, I worked in a job where I dealt with several people in a small office in sort-of-upstate New York, which I visited several times and had a fairly close working relationship with them all. One day, I called a lady there, and thinking of the whole crew, I asked "How are y'all doing?"

She responded something like "I'm fine, thanks."

My thought after that was that there is now one more northerner who will swear that "y'all" is sometimes used as singular.

[PixyMisa]

Surely "y'all" is the singular and "all y'all" is the plural?

(Ducks.)

[Anathema]

I was born in the Florida panhandle, lived in southern Alabama, Tennessee, and Atlanta --- and I have NEVER ONCE heard "ya'll" used to address a singular person. NEVER.

A good friend of mine from Milwaukee, WI, spent about 2 years in Atlanta, and he SWEARS he heard it used all the time.

The problem is context. People from the outside imply a singular address when a plural is intended. If someone says to another "How ya'll doing" -- it means how are you and your family, if there is no one else around. "Ya'll" is NEVER INTENDED to indicate a single person. These "researchers" have tipped their hands as superficial nitwits...

[NoZed Avenger]

Originally posted by PixyMisa
Surely "y'all" is the singular and "all y'all" is the plural?

(Ducks.)

Does an Aussie REALLY want to start a "mis-state how words are used by foreginers pretending to talk authentically" fight?

/eagerly searches for "Crocodile Dundee" on the web

[CurtC]

Originally posted by PixyMisa
Surely "y'all" is the singular and "all y'all" is the plural?It may sound funny, but, given that "y'all" is the plural version of the second person prounoun "you," the phrase "all y'all" is the equivalent of "all of us," except second person instead of first. If you're talking about multiple people, and you need to tell them that they are all included and not just some number greater than one, then "all y'all" is the way to do it.

[kimiko]

I'm in north central texas, and I've never heard it used as a singular. Seems all the Texans so far agree.

[epepke]

Originally posted by CurtC
As someone who has lived in Texas all of my 43 years so far, let me just say that these researchers are full of it. A significant portion of this news story centers around this:I have never, ever, heard anyone refer to a single person as "y'all," and I've lived in Texas from the woods in East Texas, where I was born, to the plains of West Texas, where I went to high school and college, to the big cities of North Texas. Using "y'all" to refer to one person would be a serious error in the dialect.

I agree, and I'm the same age as you, but I've lived mostly in Florida. "Y'all" is only appropriate in the plural.

There is an interesting thing, though, which I've noticed of dialects in the Carolinas. There are two possessive forms of "y'all": "y'all's" and "y'all'ses."

"That dog's y'all's."
"That dog's y'all'ses." (unacceptable)
"That's y'all'ses dog."
"That's y'all's dog." (rare, but acceptable)

[Yaotl]

To conduct their research, Bailey and Tillery have divided the state into 116 geographic grids and have sought to interview four representative Texans in each one.

Am I reading that right? 464 people in all of Texas? I'm a native Texan too, born and raised in South Texas (Robstown, if anyone knows where that is). Only one person in my entire family had a twang and no one could figure out where she got it from. And I'm in the "y'all" is the plural form of you camp.

[gnome]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
I had a Canadian seriously tell me once that they don't say 'aboot'.

I always thought it sounded more like "a-boat" unless someone was trying to use a farcical accent.

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by epepke
I agree, and I'm the same age as you, but I've lived mostly in Florida. "Y'all" is only appropriate in the plural.

There is an interesting thing, though, which I've noticed of dialects in the Carolinas. There are two possessive forms of "y'all": "y'all's" and "y'all'ses."

"That dog's y'all's."
"That dog's y'all'ses." (unacceptable)
"That's y'all'ses dog."
"That's y'all's dog." (rare, but acceptable)

Actually, "y'all" is singular. "All y'all" is the plural.

For CurtC, who says he has lived in Texas for all of his 43 years in Texas and has never heard y'all used as singular, it may be that you are too close to even realize it, and you probably haven't paid attention to it.

It's a lot easier for outsiders, who aren't used to hearing it all the time, to evaluate these things.

[Phil]

I'll tell yall one thing I discovered from reading the article that I didn't already know: Howard Witt is a pantload.

[davefoc]

Hmm,
Now I am completely confused, CurtC and others have made me think that my earlier research in to the issue of y'all was wrong and my superficial nitwit northern brain (thank you Anathema) had led me to a false conclusion.

Now, pgwenthold suggests that I was right all along and CurtC is wrong because he was too close to the situation.

I'm going to think about this for a fortnight or so I can sort out the ramifications of all this.

[Anathema]

Around the part of the south I was raised in, family was central to everything. So, if someone asked a person "How are ya'll?" it was sometimes followed up with "yer Mamma (Daddy, Kitsy) anem?" (Your Momma (et al) "and them" [sic]), as a blanket inquiry on your family. Frequently, you leave out the follow-on specific "anem" query, but if the querying party uses "ya'll", the plural is still implied. That's just how it is. I can easily understand how someone from outside the culture could miss this subtlety; but any language researcher who misses this ain't worth their salt.

[Phil]

Originally posted by davefoc
Hmm,
Now I am completely confused, CurtC and others have made me think that my earlier research in to the issue of y'all was wrong and my superficial nitwit northern brain (thank you Anathema) had led me to a false conclusion.

Now, pgwenthold suggests that I was right all along and CurtC is wrong because he was too close to the situation.

I'm going to think about this for a fortnight or so I can sort out the ramifications of all this.

Allow me to dispell any misconceptions:

The "too close to the situation" argument is the steamingest pile of BS I've heard all day. Any person using "y'all" in the singular would be noticed immediately by Texans and non-Texans alike. They would then be back-handed once, Moe Howarded, given a wedgie of Texas proportions, and sent back to effing Ohio. Not because they are using the language incorrectly -- Texans will freely admit that using the plural yall is taking liberties with the language -- but because the singular yall idiot is nothing but a caricature, trying damn hard to fit in.

Picture the guy that sucked at sports when you were little. Remember the guy who sucked but who had all the eqipment? He looked ready, but had no idea how to use the stuff. That's the singular yall idiot.

[Yaotl]

This (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=you-all) explains it nicely.

A single person may only be addressed as you-all if the speaker implies in the reference other persons not present: Did you-all [you and others] have dinner yet?

That's always how I've understood it. Afterall, we're a friendly people ain't we? ;)

[Anathema]

Originally posted by Phil
Allow me to dispell any misconceptions: Nice. :)

"I say, I say -- does ya'll really think we tawk lahk Foghorn Leghorn?"

[Yaotl]

Originally posted by Anathema
Nice. :)

"I say, I say -- does ya'll really think we tawk lahk Foghorn Leghorn?"

I still contend that I am a Texan, not a Southerner ;)

[Anathema]

Originally posted by Yaotl
This (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=you-all) explains it nicely. Perfect! That's precisely what I've been trying (rather clumsily) to say. There is a language reseacher who effing gets it. Those posers in the article about as useless as tits on a bull...

[Yaotl]

Originally posted by Anathema
Perfect! That's precisely what I've been trying (rather clumsily) to say. There is a language reseacher who effing gets it. Those posers in the article about as useless as tits on a bull...

Was I wrong in my understanding of their sample size?

[crimresearch]

'Y'all' means the same thing as 'You', and may be applied in a similar manner.

It is a common mistake in these sorts of studies, for the researchers to not know the difference between speaking 'Suthren' and speaking 'Redneck'.

[CurtC]

Originally posted by pgwenthold
For CurtC, who says he has lived in Texas for all of his 43 years in Texas and has never heard y'all used as singular, it may be that you are too close to even realize it, and you probably haven't paid attention to it.Look, I'm a long-time lurker and former sometimes contributor to the alt.usage.english newsgroup. Language is something I notice and pay attention to. I have never heard it used as singluar.
Originally posted by Anathema
it was sometimes followed up with "yer Mamma (Daddy, Kitsy) anem?"I had always heard it as "nim" - "How's your momma nim?" etc.

[Ove]

Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?
This verbal class distinction by now should be antique.
If you spoke as she does, sir, Instead of the way you do,
Why, you might be selling flowers, too.

An Englishman's way of speaking absolutely classifies him,
The moment he talks he makes some other
Englishman despise him.
One common language I'm afraid we'll never get.
Oh, why can't the English learn to set
A good example to people whose
English is painful to your ears?
The Scotch and the Irish leave you close to tears.
There even are places where English completely
disappears. In America, they haven't used it for years!

Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?
Norwegians learn Norwegian; the Greeks have taught their Greek. In France every Frenchman knows
his language from "A" to "Zed"
The French never care what they do, actually,
as long as they pronounce in properly.
Arabians learn Arabian with the speed of summer lightning.
And Hebrews learn it backwards,
which is absolutely frightening.
But use proper English you're regarded as a freak.
Why can't the English,
Why can't the English learn to speak?

(Professor Higgins in "My Fair Lady")

:D :D :D

[fishbob]

It's a lot easier for outsiders, who aren't used to hearing it all the time, to evaluate these things. The idea that less knowledge about a subject makes for better understanding of the subject sort of reminds me of something that fell out the south end of a northbound horse.

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by fishbob
The idea that less knowledge about a subject makes for better understanding of the subject sort of reminds me of something that fell out the south end of a northbound horse.

Does a fish know he lives in water?

[Anathema]

Originally posted by pgwenthold
Does a fish know he lives in water? Is the consciousness of a fish remotely comparable to the consciousness of a human?

[Yaotl]

Originally posted by pgwenthold
Does a fish know he lives in water?

So I don't know I live in New York because I live in New York?

[Soapy Sam]

" Is the consciousness of a fish remotely comparable to the consciousness of a human?" - Anathema.

Surely this depends on how stupid the fish is? Of the top of my head I can think of one Texan who makes the average mudskipper look like a towering intellectual giant.

[drkitten]

Originally posted by Phil
Any person using "y'all" in the singular would be noticed immediately by Texans and non-Texans alike. They would then be back-handed once, Moe Howarded, given a wedgie of Texas proportions, and sent back to effing Ohio. Not because they are using the language incorrectly -- Texans will freely admit that using the plural yall is taking liberties with the language -- but because the singular yall idiot is nothing but a caricature, trying damn hard to fit in.


So is your contention, then, that the researchers forged the tapes and transcripts of their interview subjects?

I find it amusing that all y'all who haven't actually seen the primary research data are telling the rest of us what couldn't possibly be on the tapes.

[Phil]

Originally posted by new drkitten
So is your contention, then, that the researchers forged the tapes and transcripts of their interview subjects?

I don't think I mentioned 'tapes' or 'researchers' anywhere in that post, but then I'm only a Texan. Maybe you interlexuals got some fancy double meaning for words like 'singular' and 'caricature'. 'Cause I'm pretty sure I did mention those two words --- in regard to "yall" usage among Texans, not researchers.

I have no contention regarding the validity of any researchers, their research, their tapes or transcipts in any capacity. I will, however, stand by my opinion that the guy who wrote the article is a pantload.

Originally posted by new drkitten
I find it amusing that all y'all who haven't actually seen the primary research data are telling the rest of us what couldn't possibly be on the tapes.

There very well may be some yahoo on a tape somewhere using "yall" to refer to a single person. I don't recall reading any post in this thread that said the data doesn't exist. All we're saying is that anyone who uses "yall" to refer to one person is either a poseur or an idiot.

[Anathema]

I'm not suggesting anything about the content of the tapes. The fact is "content analysis" in communications research is highly subjective, and relies on the careful management of observer bias. Noting the invocation of the threadbare "dumb hick" stereotype in the article, I strongly suspect that even these so-called researchers are still stuck in "Foghorn Leghorn" mode -- they hear what they want to hear; affirming their biases rather than challenging them. I have seen MANY folks from outside the Southern tradition misinterpret this nuance in communication, and it is apparent these researchers interpret something that is not intended. The link Yaotl provided sets it all straight.

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by davefoc
I am still trying to work fortnight into a conversation in a natural way...
Everyone should have a star to follow and a dream to dream.

[phildonnia]

I once knew a Texas native who claimed that turning your car around at an intersection is known as a "y'all turn". I couldn't tell if this was a joke or not.

[Anathema]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
" Is the consciousness of a fish remotely comparable to the consciousness of a human?" - Anathema.

Surely this depends on how stupid the fish is? Of the top of my head I can think of one Texan who makes the average mudskipper look like a towering intellectual giant. So, you've studied enough mudskippers to calculate an "average", yet you've only sampled one Texan? I have few methodological concerns....where to begin? ;)

[epepke]

Originally posted by Phil
The "too close to the situation" argument is the steamingest pile of BS I've heard all day.

Well, sometimes this can happen for linguistic analysis. In this case, however, it is great thwacking heaps of malleable dung.

If a stranger walks into a Southern diner, and the waitress asks, "What do y'all want?" then it's either a slip-up from force of habit, or she's a transplant.

If she asks, "How are y'all?" then it means you and possibly other family or travel companions that she does not know about but does not want to omit from the inquiry for fear of sounding ungracious.

One can't do proper linguistic analysis without taking into account the culture. Southern and Texas culture are just much more strongly into membership in families and other groups than a lot of US cultures. It permeates the mindset. This has caused problems more than once, but that's the way it is.

[Anathema]

I can imagine what these "researchers" field journals must look like:

"Spent day among the quaint and simple people of West Texas. Based upon analysis of their greetings, we surmise they, like many primitive cultures, have difficulty abstracting quantities numerically. This is noted in their use of plural constructions when addressing single persons, with their idiomatic "ya'll" [sic]. Further, noting their slower speech patterns, we suggest a separate neurological study into the possibility of regionalized suppressed mental function, possibly connected to excessive consumption of cheap domestic beer and chili."

[Dragonrock]

Just thought I throw in my opinion as I am also a Texan...

If I even heard someone say "Y'all are my beautiful wife" I would assume that this person was affecting a fake accent to either be humorous or insulting. "Y'all" is plural and simply refers to the person being spoken to and anyone else who might be a part of that person's group. Sometimes it is used as a sort of question to determine if there are more than one such as a waitress saying to her customer who is sitting by himself: "Do y'all want coffee?" to which the customer, who is actually alone, would reply, "It's just me, and yes, please."

I do agree that most Texans are proud of their state and it's history (Phil said it quite well in a post that appears to have been pruned) but I doubt that pride would cause them to twist words just to be different.

ps. Any chilled beverage made by mixing carbonated water with a flavored syrup is called a "coke" (note the little "c").
ie:
person 1: "Would you like a coke?"
person 2: "Yeah, please!"
person 1: "What kind?"
person 2: "7up"

[Anathema]

Originally posted by Dragonrock
person 2: "7up" *Southern pronunciation note: SEB-mup

It works pretty much the same in Alabama and FL panhandle. Although it's sometimes "coe-cola" or "cold drink", but never "soda" or "pop".

:D

[CurtC]

When I was growing up, carbonated soft drinks were called "cokes," or more often, "soda water," where "soda" is pronounced "sodey." But never sodas, and never "pop."

About the quote "Y'all are my beautiful wife" - that is an especially steaming pile of BS. *IF* someone were using "y'all" as a singular prounoun, it wouldn't take a plural verb. Hell, even us Texans can make our nouns and verbs agree in number. The most plausible explanation I can think of us this northerner comes down to Cut-and-Shoot, Texas (I'm not making that up) and the locals figure out that he's in effect making fun of them, so they play a little joke. "Y'all are my beautiful wife." I bet the old guys playing dominoes outside the feed store are still laughing about it.

[phildonnia]

Originally posted by CurtC
...About the quote "Y'all are my beautiful wife" - that is an especially steaming pile of BS. *IF* someone were using "y'all" as a singular prounoun, it wouldn't take a plural verb. ...

This is a joke, right? Or do non-texans use a "singular" verb with the singular "you"?

[fishbob]

regionalized suppressed mental function, possibly connected to excessive consumption of cheap domestic beer and chili." I live in Alaska now - where almost everybody is from somewhere else. Texas was a lot like that, in the larger cities, back in the 70s and 80s and 90s. Anyway, I make a point of excessive consumption of cheap domestic beer and Tex-Mex whenever I get back down that way. I don't believe I can ever recover from that regionalized suppressed mental function.

[hammegk]

Hmmm. Did y'all know that a Yankee is someone who eats pie for breakfast?