Do you ever feel like a salmon...

[JLam]

...swimming upstream? I'm new to this whole field of skeptical inquiry, having recently discovered the JREF, and I wonder about something.

Here we are, posting away, laughing about and criticizing people who believe crazy things. That's all well and good, but it seems like it's just so much preaching to the choir. Try to talk to a believer about any of this stuff, and you just run into a brick wall.

For example...I just got the first season of P&T's Bullshi(t)! on DVD, and my fiancee and I have been really enjoying it. We especially laughed at the segment about pet psychics. My fiancee brought it up to one of her co-workers who said "OH, but the pet psychics are real!!" This is a woman who is college educated and holds a very well paying corporate job in a major retail company. She is not a stupid person. But she thinks that some whackjob can tell her what Fido's hopes and dreams are. It makes me just want to smack this woman around :hit:

What can I as an individual do to help stop this crap??? I'd be interested to see what others with more experience have to say about this.

[jmercer]

Well, I'm not an experienced skeptic - I'm new here - but I think of this as "lighting a candle rather than cursing the dark".

And somebody's gotta do it, or all there will be is the dark. :D

[patnray]

Welcome!

Sometimes it seems hopeless and overwhelming. Don't let it get to you. Just keep plodding ahead. Demand facts. Point out logical fallacies. Ask questions (like why do pet psychics have to ask the owners what animal's name is?)

And come here for support. JREF has helped me be more vocal and far less likely to just bite my tongue when confronted with foolishness. The sad thing is that in doing so I have discovered how many people I know believe really foolish things. The good news is that I have helped some of them (not nearly enough, yet) think more clearly. And I have discovered that I also know people who do practice critical thinking and appreciate it when I speak out.

So hang in there. Learn. And keep chipping away at ignorance.

[El Greco]

Originally posted by jlam4911
What can I as an individual do to help stop this crap???

Much and nothing. You can do a lot of things, but it won't change your social environment in any observable way - not in your lifetime anyway. Societies for the most part are in an open sea of deep ***** and they are not in a hurry to swim ashore. You'll have to adjust with that and accept the fact that you will have to deal with more or less the same concetration of woos all your life.

[Nex]

Yeah, sometimes it seems like it's you against the whole world... but every little bit helps.

One of our forum members, RSLancastr, is helping debunk a scammer (http://www.stopkaz.com) in California. I did a skeptical presentation on homeopathy for a class of 20-odd students. CFLarsen's got his website, Skeptic Report (http://www.skepticreport.com). And many, many more...

We all do a little. It adds up to a lot in the end. Takes a long time though, so don't lose heart!

[tommyz]

Hello, and welcome to the board jlam4911!

I know exactly how you feel. I personally don't have a problem with people going to psychics or psychics in general per se, so as long as BOTH parties are critically aware of the FACT that they are STRICTLY there for our ENTERTAINMENT purposes --no more, no less. No differently than an exotic stripper's or male revue acts are. This kind of entertainment only becomes harmful (and in some cases even downright dangerous and disastrous) when the participant begins to ACCEPT the fantasy entertainment as "reality." In the case of the exotic entertainer act, it's one thing to pay and tip the dancer for his/her peformance and to be sensually touched and sweet talked in return. But it becomes a whole different ball game if this occassional form of entertainment becomes habitual in the hopes of securing a meaningful and worthwhile long term relationship. I've seen people (both men and women) lose so much of their valuable time and hard earned money generously tipping and purchasing lavish gifts in the dim hopes of "winning that person's heart" ---only to come to the sad realization that these dancers already have someone special in their lives and are only in this line of business as an extra means of income.

In the case of the psychics, it's one thing if your friend wants to "consult" such an individual just to see how "right" he or she is about her dog's eating, sleeping or whatever trivial habits in general. Suggestions such as "I sense that your dog is a real beef lover. He's asking if you could feed him more Alpo Premium chow, he really misses that!" are fine in that they are relatively harmless, and the worst (or in my doubtful/skeptical opinion --BEST!) thing that can happen is that she proves the psychic WRONG by seeing that her dog REFUSES to eat the said requested item. This kind of consultation can be very fun and entertaining (and sometimes even downright HILARIOUS when you PROVE the psychic WRONG! :D ) but to consult such an individual for more serious and/or life threatening concerns such as medical advice...PLEASE! That's one area where there should be absolutely NO MARGIN OF ERROR! So for the sake of the health and safety of your co-workers poor animal, I STRONGLY recommend that she turn to a professionally competent and qualified VETERINARIAN!!!

Advising others on how to responsibly approach (or better yet avoid) such individuals requires an extremely careful, considerate and mature approach. Here are a few tips that helped me:

(1). VALUE her friendship. Be skeptical, but NOT cynical.

There's a BIG difference between being a believer and being a blind, zealous fanatic. Just as there is between being a Skeptic and being a bitter, pessimist cynic. Anyone can simply blindly accept a "truth" as is --or outright deny it without doing any critical research. The REAL challenge is to establish that delicate balance between the two spectrums of thought. And the best way to do that is to approach all things with an OPEN MIND while doing continuous research, and most importantly of all, avoid jumping to conclusions. This, again is MOST important, ESPECIALLY if the quality of your relationship with that other individual means anything to you. So ultimately, you want to approach her in a manner that warm and welcoming and not cold and bitter.

Think about what I've just mentioned about the responsible and intelligent approach to psychics. How well do you know this co-worker of yours? You say she's a college graduate and holds a prestigious high paying job, which are possible signs of intelligence and maturity. So on the one hand, maybe she IS going about this in a healthy and responsible manner? Have you ever asked her any intelligent and thought provoking questions along these lines?

On the other hand, making a statement such as "Oh, but pet psychics are for REAL!" is an obvious red flag that she's leaning towards the "blind, zealous and fanatical" continuim of the spectrum. No amount of talk, however well sugar-coated, well intented and intelligently wise you may come across will help. In this case, you'll need to...

(2). Back your arguments up with sound RESEARCH.

Anecdotal evidence is NOT ENOUGH. Telling your friend "so many of these psychics out there are nothing more but con artists" is not going to convince her NOT to go (on the contrary, it may only encourage her to!). So instead, SHOW her SOLID evidence of exactly HOW psychics are con artists. Direct her to this website, for starters. Copy and print some articles (or email her the weblinks); find some related articles in Skeptical Inquirer Magazine by clicking on http://www.csicop.org/si/ Or try any of these GREAT articles:

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/psychic2.html

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/psychic.html

And, of course, try inviting her over to watch the Penn and Teller shows with you. Offer them free munchies too, as a warm and friendly gesture.

I've used this approach with a very close friend of mine who was foolish enough to purchase Kevin Trudeau's "Miracle Cures..." book a few months ago. He had just recently completed undergoing chemotherapy for testicular cancer, so he thought of it as a "last ditch" attempt to avoid going to the doctors. (Yeah, I know...and buying a lottery ticket tonight will forever replace my need for a full time job :confused: ) As warm and pleasant as I tried to be in my attepts to convince him to return the book back for a refund, I was getting nowhere fast; my healthy skepticism was perceived as bitter pessimism...until I pointed him to various website articles thoroughly DEBUNKING his credibility, including the FTC website.

He has since returned his book back for a refund...but hasn't heard anything yet. (Honestly, do you think he EVER WILL?)

(3). If all else fails, AVOID these people like the plague that they truly are!

Some people are so stubborn that no amount of logic and reasoning in the world is going to do them an ounce of good. It's once been said that the difference between ignorance and stupidity is that ignorance can be cured; stupidity can't. It also has once been said that you are what you attract and you attract what you are.

Ultimately, if steps 1 and 2 don't work, you're going to drive yourself absolutely INSANE trying to change such people. So the bottom line is, they are either going to:

(a). Aspire to YOUR level.

or

(b). Bring you down to THIER'S.


Ask yourself: Is it REALLY worth sacrificing my sense of sanity, serenity and peace of mind...just to be "good friends" with a complete whackjob?

Personally, I'd rather have NO FRIENDS AT ALL then to be "good friends" with complete idiots. As the saying goes, with friends like that, who needs enemies??? ;)