What converted you ? ooo

[jambo372]

If you were originally a believer but went sceptic, what persuaded you to do so ?
If you were originally sceptical but converted to beliefs, what persuaded you to do so ?

Do you advocate the same change to people in your former position ?

If so why ?

Has this change worked to your advantage ?
Why does it benefit you ?

[kedo1981]

I used to read lots of UFO and Bermuda triangle books but I came to realize that it’s the belief in the supernatural that has kept humanity in a prison for eons, and the way to freedom is reason and science

[Sharon]

Hi

First time poster, not great with spelling as you'll see;)

I was once a believer. Suffered from Sleep disorder and used to see things, still do, and believed (because I was told by lots of psychic's) that I too had a gift (which if I'm honest was a real ego boost as I'm not too clever, didn't do well at school, so it was brill to at last be good at something). One thing lead to another and before you know it I was a tarot reader at the local psychic fairs. Was into it all, bigtime.

I supose I started 'thinking' about things and it just didn't add up. Did some research, everything I thought I was doing was, to me, easily explained from normal reasons without it being paranormal.

Must say mind you it was a terrible time when I went through the change, felt like the rug had been pulled from under my feet.


Much Love
Sharon;)

[Chupacabras]

> If you were originally a believer but went sceptic, what persuaded you to do so ?

First, I want to point out that I am first a critical thinker and only then am consider myself a skeptic.

I was raised to believe blindly what I was taught at home and school. When I first went away from home, I met people and read more, and began questioning and trying to make the ends of reason meet, but they just didn't. About religion, I once woke to the fact that knowing or not (believing or not) doesn't make any difference, so what the heck.


> Do you advocate the same change to people in your former position ?

No. Its a matter of personal conviction (based on reason or dogma - whatever anyone decides) and any individual should be free to choose what to accept or not (FWIW, my wife is raising our children in religion, which is fine with me).


> Has this change worked to your advantage ?

For one, I got rid of the guilt of having been born in the first place! Also, at certain stage as a kid, I couldn't go to the bathroom without being shy that god was watching over me. WTF????

Later, when I was at the University, I met people into gnostics and other such thinking, and at one moment I really worried that I was among dangerous fanatics of all sorts when I read some books they offered to me. I have never met an atheist who tried to convert anyone, but these people were eager to draw me into their cause with all sort of psychodelic arguments.

I also think I am happier than before, and free to think and imagine (I make a living as an artist, so I have to "create" things). In this regard, I must mention that I have long appreciated the fact of having been once a believer - the creative possibilities of knowing both positions are endless.

[Nex]

Originally posted by jambo372
If you were originally a believer but went sceptic, what persuaded you to do so ?
Jambo, I wish I could put this into a short answer for you, but I just can't. Suffice to say that for many years, in fact my whole life up until the past year, I was a die-hard believer. I was a Witch, both Wiccan and general Pagan, and later on an atheistic occultist. After years of practicing psi and other occult practices, I saw that it got me nowhere and did nothing but waste my time, money, and energy. It did nothing but make me feel better about myself and the world, and when I saw it did nothing but that, it didn't even do that anymore.
Originally posted by jambo372
Do you advocate the same change to people in your former position ?
It depends on who they are. Some people need their beliefs to shore themselves up, to keep themselves from falling apart. I would never advocate my position to my father, for instance, because he wouldn't be able to handle it. I love him dearly, but it's true. Without God and the supernatural, I think he would kill himself.
Originally posted by jambo372
If so why ?
For those that could handle it, I see no reason not to nudge them towards skepticism. I'd never bring it up intentionally though, and I'd only debate it if the other person wanted to and started the conversation him/herself.
Originally posted by jambo372
Has this change worked to your advantage ?
Yes. I feel... free. I don't know how else to put it. Free. It's a very good feeling. Not exhilerating, but just... free.
Originally posted by jambo372
Why does it benefit you ?
Because now I can best see the world as it is, without the blinders and rose-tinted glasses. Granted, I will always have my own subjectivity to contend with, but at least now I know how to fight it.

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by Sharon
Hi

First time poster, not great with spelling as you'll see;)

I was once a believer. Suffered from Sleep disorder and used to see things, still do, and believed (because I was told by lots of psychic's) that I too had a gift (which if I'm honest was a real ego boost as I'm not too clever, didn't do well at school, so it was brill to at last be good at something). One thing lead to another and before you know it I was a tarot reader at the local psychic fairs. Was into it all, bigtime.

I supose I started 'thinking' about things and it just didn't add up. Did some research, everything I thought I was doing was, to me, easily explained from normal reasons without it being paranormal.

Must say mind you it was a terrible time when I went through the change, felt like the rug had been pulled from under my feet.


Much Love
Sharon;)

Welcome, Sharon. Your sig. is from one of my favourite books.:) Thanks for the clear and frank exposition of your "conversion". You seem to have shared many of the traits that jambo372 displays here. Glad you "got better" :)

What made me a skeptic:

1. Basic (A Level) science education.
2. Critical thinking at Uni. Studying the Middle Ages, the Renaissance, the Rise of Scientific Europe etc.
3. Lack of evidence of anything paranormal.
4. Reading a lot -- on both sides.
5. Interest in the mechanics and philosophy of conjuring.
6. Learning that all psychic phenomena can be reproduced by magicians.
7. Reading about the frauds in the psi community.
8. I can usually discern how a psychic feat was performed -- i.e. by cheating.
9. If I am to be deliberately fooled, I like to be told before or after that a trick is involved. Otherwise, I would feel cheated.
10. Coming here. I came across the JREF by accident while looking up stuff on conjuring.
11. I don't want the world to revert back to the Dark Ages.
12. I believe that science deserves much more funding. PSI research is a waste of funding and mental energy.
13. I don't like seeing others being conned by charlatans.

There -- 13, my lucky number ;)

[DangerousBeliefs]

When I was a child, I believed in magic and fairy tales... then I grew up.

I think we should work toward helping others live in the real world and not some fantasy land... this is especially true for those who kill themselves or loved ones based on their beliefs.

Fact of the matter is Jambo, we've been looking at Psi seriously for over 200 years and there has yet to be conclusive evidence that it exists. Your posts of evidence are laughable at best.

Frankly, I blame the media, television, and movies for encouraging such beliefs. While I find such movies as The Sixth Sense to be great entertainment, we really need to spend time counterbalancing things like Ghost Hunters (on SciFi) with shows or time which looks criticially at this information.

For example, I always want to ask the Ghost Hunters what they think they are measuring when they go into a house with temperature and electrical field measuring equipment. Because, they will find such variations in ANY BUILDING THEY STUDY. (Everybody smack your foreheads in frustration)

It's about living in the Real World, Jambo. I choose to live there, it's a fasinating enough place without adding psi power, ghosts, or demons.

(Side note, when I was a kid I used to absolutely LOVE this British show about kids with Psi powers. Anybody remember The Tomorrow People (http://www.clivebanks.co.uk/TP%20Intro.htm) ?)

[Kopji]

My 'deconversion', if that is a good term, seems much different to me now that it is at a fading distance.
There is a sense of quiet freedom and calmness about it.

I was the kind of believer who would gladly travel 90 miles one way to church if called to.

A minor illness of my wife turned into a longer hospital stay in which she almost died. We later found out that this was something that could come and go for many years. Even later, there was a serious concern that the kids had inherited the health problem too. (Less concern now).

All the 'benefits' of belief were brought to bear: There were prayers for healing and visits, there was even an instance where I thought I had been visited by an angel.

And suddenly... I just broke: felt nothing, not caring to live or die. It was as if a huge elaborate sand castle suddenly washed away by an unexpected wave. I could not sing hymns for the longest time, or even enter a church without being overcome with sadness. Doubtless my leaving the faith caused many friends and family great concern. The guilt I should have felt was sort of swept away in the unfeeling.

And so that was the 'emotional' part. I don't think I ever madly raged against God or anything. It was a realization that there was no God to rage at - things happen and we go on.
For a couple years I tried to reason my way into other churches and religions but it always seemed like I was trying to rebuild that sand castle. Despite my best efforts it would last a short while and then crumble. It was not a matter of choosing to believe or not. I finally let go of trying to find a new 'faith home'.

Fast forward several years... My family is doing better although there is always a chance that it can and does suddenly change for the worse. This is just our life and we make the most of it while we can.

The 'unfeeling' gradually changed into a kind of benign detachment about things. I once feared this 'detachment' as a kind of abyss. I now have a small patch of philosophy built around it (so hey, philosophy has some use after all).

[Kopji]

The Tomorrow People are the next stage of human evolution: Homo Superior. Gifted with various telepathic abilities such as telepathy, telekinesis and teleportation (jaunting), these special teenagers are also unable to kill. Sworn to defend the Earth from enemies both alien and human, the Tomorrow People operate from a secret base known as the Lab, situated in a disused London Underground tunnel, and are assisted by Tim, a sentient biotronic computer.


Sheesh I'm jealous, we have such crap on tv... :D

[alfaniner]

My thoughts on the matter were previously posted here:

Losing My Religion (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49238&highlight=losing+my+religion).

[Nim]

This website converted me. Except for the Christian part. I went to Central Christian Academy but stopped believing in god at the age of 12 because I thought it was irrational. Belief in the other paranormal stuff that had to do with the mind and soul took much longer to die out.

[jj]

Let's see:

I was raised "Christian", but I couldn't reconcile either the contradictions or the lack of evidence.

I thought psychics might be real, until I figured out how to do most of the same things myself, especially with a shill or two in the audience to react at the beginning of a reading or whatever.

I was impressed once by Kreskin, and then put 2 and 2 together, along with the words that "it's an act", and figured out how to do that by myself.

Then, I started on a career that involved lots of actual tests of human perception. At that point, it became obvious that human perception was highly inconstant, and not very accurate. This provided a mechanism, and in fact an obvious and painfully easily manipulated one, for making people "believe".

Then, of course, having moved from EE to audio and signal processing, the audio woo-stuff looked just like CAM magic, etc, and that was really it.

As long as people can think, non-blind testing of any sort is just not going to work.

[Sharon]

Hi Thor

Thankyou for the welcome.

I haven't read the book yet, next on my list. Still working through How We Know What Isn't So. In my raggamuffin way , and they don't come much more raggamuffin than me on the intelligence front, but I'm trying my best.


Jambo

If your 'really' intrested in why people change, what made them, and the after effects then this might intrest you?

http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-05/new-age.html

It's long but it explains a real turn around in her thinking.

Sharon

[Dr Adequate]

Sceptics who used to believe weird things (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45662)

[bluess]

The whole religion thing was never an issue for me - my parents didn't force anything on me and I read too much sci-fi and fantasy to believe that any other scripture would be more than another story. I did have a bout of believing the new age stuff - strange potions, angels, crystals - and just grew out of it because it seemed so silly, non-reproducible, and the people who were trying to sell the stuff were also silly, often not touching down in reality at all, and VERY hostile if questioned. If you read speculative fiction at an early age (8 and up), anytime someone can't stand being questioned about their concept, alarm bells go off. So, potions, crystals, tarot cards - bye bye!

No loss felt.

Over the years, I have become more brave at looking at spooky noises - where I used to cringe because it might be something un earthly, now I'm more likely to grab a baseball bat cause it might be something too earthly. I explore odd noises, strange lights, odd animal behavior - there is a reason, and it doesn't require a psychic to sort it out.

Edited for mis-used word.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by jambo372
If you were originally a believer but went sceptic, what persuaded you to do so ?My education in the scientific method and critical thought (or philosophy).
Do you advocate the same change to people in your former position ?

If so why ?Only if they ask questions with intent to whittle away falsehoods. I would advocate it because a systematic disciplined method of analyzing a question often works better than the alternative.
Has this change worked to your advantage ?
Why does it benefit you ? I like to think so, but I honestly don't remember what how my mind worked before. The scientific method and critical thought have been very helpful to me in life, in general, for the many situations when I've had to troubleshoot a problem.

[Tricky]

I am really looking forward to Julia Sweeney's "Letting Go of God" at TAM. From the reviews, it is touching, personal and very funny. I'll give you a report if you're interested, jambo.

[supercorgi]

I was raised as a protestant (congregationalist), did the whole going to church, church youth group, sang in the choir but began to really lose interest in it as a teenager. I got confirmed mainly to make my mother happy. However at that point, I still believed in god.

Then I took a high school course that was a study of different cultures with a lot of comparitive religion work. I'd always been fascinated by different cultures and loved this course. I was exposed to a whole array of different people with different beliefs. While most of the polytheistic religions got along well with other belief systems, the monotheistic ones seemed very intolerant of other beliefs. I saw religion more and more as a cultural phenomenon rather than a statement of any kind of truth. I felt that the religions that advocated that their brand of god was the right one and everyone else was wrong to be incredibly arrogant.

Between this multicultural outlook (I went on to major in Anthropology in college) and my science education, I eventually saw that there was no objective proof that any sort of higher power existed. And if I was wrong, and there was a higher power, they sure as hell weren't much concerned with the happiness and welfare of us humans.

[Psiload]

I used to believe in all that stuff... Loch Ness Monster, psychic powers, ghosts, etc... I used to watch In Search Of in wide-eyed wonder. I used to find Charles Berlitz books fascinating. I used to spend hours in the back yard at night scanning the skies for UFO's...

then I grew up.

[rppa]

Originally posted by bluess
Over the years, I have become more brave at looking at spooky noises - where I used to cringe because it might be something un earthly, now I'm more likely to grab a baseball bat cause it might be something too earthly.

I didn't grow up with cats, but I live with three now. There's nothing like living with cats to change your attitude on things that go bump in the night. If I used to sit bolt upright and say "what the H was that?", now I open my eyes, say "*$&%(8 cat, wonder what I'm going to have to clean up in the morning?" and go back to sleep.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Originally posted by Chupacabras
any individual should be free to choose what to accept or not (FWIW, my wife is raising our children in religion, which is fine with me).

Slightly off topic, but how do you reconcile the two parts of that sentence? Surely raising a child in a specific religion is not consistent with giving them freedom to choose?

[coalesce]

For me, it was a Guilt By Association thing. Like Bluess points out, the people advocating crystals, remote viewing, telekinesis, healing and the like are just silly, in my opinion. It's like the first time I went to a Yes convention. Now, Yes is my favorite band (second only to the Beatles). They could belch for 45 minutes, put it on CD and I'd be the first one at HMV sternly asking the clerk why are they NOT carrying the CD. But I digress...

Anyway, when I went to a Yes convention in 1991 here in NYC, it was filled with people that I would have no desire whatsoever to associate with. With the exception of the music (almost all of which I had), I don't want to be around people who paint Jon Anderson as a messiah in a long, flowing white robe. That's just silly. I enjoy the music immensely, but that doesn't mean that I think the band transcends us mere mortals. The message in the music is one thing, but when it's taken and blown to quasi-religious proportions, that's when I look for the nearest exit. Likewise, there's a scene in the movie Contact when Ellie is driving to the Machine and she passes all these people who have their own UFO agenda, and fictional or not, those are people who I don't want to associate with.

And, as Psiload succinctly points out, I grew up, too.

Michael

[bluess]

Originally posted by rppa
I didn't grow up with cats, but I live with three now. There's nothing like living with cats to change your attitude on things that go bump in the night. If I used to sit bolt upright and say "what the H was that?", now I open my eyes, say "*$&%(8 cat, wonder what I'm going to have to clean up in the morning?" and go back to sleep.

Aah, the lovely sound of a hairball hacked up at 3 AM....what a joy it is to own cats.

I've one cat who freaks at everything - the refrigerator hum changes and he acts like the demented pyscho killer ghost is at the door. So I rely on the old lady cat, who only moves if she can eat it or it can eat her. She's a great resource when something goes bump in the night.

[bluess]

Originally posted by Jaggy Bunnet
Slightly off topic, but how do you reconcile the two parts of that sentence? Surely raising a child in a specific religion is not consistent with giving them freedom to choose?

My husband and I are facing this one now - he is a Christian, but not scripturally blindfolded. I find most religions annoying somewhere along the line. He feels that raising a child in a community which cares about the heart and soul is important - so we are going to settle on a temple which brings in the good quotes from all religions. I don't agree with it 100% but it is not gendered bias, racially biased or culturally biased, and doesn't assume a big sky daddy. Pronouns are used for convience. I'm still not really happy with the concept, but hope this will give our kid the ability to parse various religions and beliefs with an open mind. We'll see.

[Ashles]

I am wondering whether this entire post is a plea for help by Jambo.

Title:
What converted you ? ooo


It reminds me of the song in the Jungle Book

Ooo - I wanna be like you-oo oo...


You can Jambo. You just have to try...

Don't be afraid of logic... let it be your friend... embrace it... come into the light...

[thatguywhojuggles]

I grew up in Bolivia because my parents were missionaries. At the age of 12-13, I started to wonder why we were right, and all the other beliefs/religions of the world were wrong. It didn't make sense. If god was all powerful, he would have made it so everyone believed in the same god.

When I was a teen, I was interested in psi stuff, and tested it quite often with my friends, but never saw evidence of it. I was constantly seeking evidence, but never finding it. I remember once asking a friend of mine to have her witch friend put a curse on me. Nothing happened.

I was a full blown skeptic by time I was 25, but thought I was mostly alone in my thoughts. I was incredibly delighted when I finally learned about James Randi, and found out that there were others who thought like I did.

[Open Mind]

I've been from believer to skeptic and back to skeptical believer :)

[Jas]

Originally posted by rppa
now I open my eyes, say "*$&%(8 cat, wonder what I'm going to have to clean up in the morning?" and go back to sleep.

LMAO...so true.

As far as what converted me, I think the short answer would be

1. a lot of reading, of everything

2. spending time with people who have these 'woowoo' beliefs

3. seeing some nasty reactions/poor results from people at the gym who spent half their check at the healthfood store (and seeing the prices!)

4. a niggling little voice at the back of my mind, saying "that doesn't sound quite right for some reason"

[Psiload]

Originally posted by Open Mind
I've been from believer to skeptic and back to skeptical believer :) I've been to paradise, but I've never been to me.

[Ashles]

Originally posted by Open Mind
I've been from believer to skeptic and back to skeptical believer :)

I don't know why but this reminded me of

There and back again: A Hobbit's Tale :)

[tommyz]

Originally posted by jambo372
If you were originally a believer but went sceptic, what persuaded you to do so ?
If you were originally sceptical but converted to beliefs, what persuaded you to do so ?

Do you advocate the same change to people in your former position ?

If so why ?

Has this change worked to your advantage ?
Why does it benefit you ?


I like to think of myself as somewhere happily in between the two. Not to sound arrogant, rude or insulting, but any moron can blindly accept a certain code of tenets as equally as he or she can outright deny them. For example, wearing a cross around your neck, going to Church every week and telling people that you love Jesus --without REALLY thinking and/or asking yourself why--
is just as bad as saying "God doesn't exist, and whoever believes in God is a moron!"

So you see, there's a BIG difference between a believer and a zealot fanatic, just as much as there is between a skeptic and a bitter cynic. I was born and raised Roman Catholic, but stopped attending church when I was about 17 years old...at which point I really began to question my beliefs and what I was doing and become agnostic. It wasn't until two years ago that I turned back again to Christianity, BUT........in my own fair and balanced, skeptical kind of way.

So I guess the most appropriate term for me is "Skeptical Christian" or "Skeptical Believer."

Many of you are probably confused by that. Let me explain:

Do I believe that Jesus existed on this Earth? Yes, I do. But I also accept the possibility that he may never have.

Do I attend any church services? Absolutely not; only Roman Catholic masses on Christmas and Easter, but that's it.

Do I pray? Not very often at all. Only to the extent in which to affect a desired resulf completely that beyond my control, if ever at all

Do I believe Jesus was born of a virgin? Most likely not. Though it's a very beautiful concept, it's a biological impossibility.

Do I believe he performed all the miracles purported in the Bible? Most likely not. At best, the healing of the leppers and the blind man may have very well been but a placebo effect, much in the same way modern day faith healers (such as Benny Hinn) operate today...nothing divinely miraculous about that, but who knows? And walking on water? Changing water to wine? Could've very well have been nothing more than a magic trick; a sleight of hand/optical illusion. I like to debate this with the most stubborn Christians, that if Jesus was able to that, then why not have food miraculously appear from the sky in such quantities as to feed the entire world? And why just a handful of cured people? Why not ask God (His Father) to cure ALL afflicted people in ALL the world?

Do I make it a point to publicly advertise my faith? Absolutely not. I do wear a cross, but it's always kept under my shirt. And I only offer my views here on this messageboard as a quodlibet to help further our critical thinking skills, NOT to "convert" anyone.

Then why do I choose to believe at all???

Look: We are the sum total of the actions and decisions we make. Nothing more, nothing less. So whatever achievements and accomplishments you make are the results of YOUR efforts --not God's. For example, no amount of prayer, bible study, or church services are going to write up a resume for you, and start networking with prospective employers. Only YOU can do that by getting off your fat lazy ass. (and of course, I mean "You" in the third person, NOT you personally --just so you know) It's just that simple.

So you see, I would certainly LOVE to be atheist myself, don't get me wrong. There's only one thing that's stopping me, and that's the certainty of death.

Here are a few questions to think about...again, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind on anything, so please...unless you feel absolutely compelled to, you don't have to answer them. Your answers to these questions are strictly YOUR BUSINESS:

What happens to our conscious beings at the moment in which our bodies ultimately expire??? Is there an eternal continuity of our conscioussness that survives death into some other unknown dimension??? Or does the consciousness simply concede the fact that it can no longer exist and be bequethed into eternal oblivion???

The thought of spending eternity as fertilizer for a couple of dandelions and patches of crabgrass growing a few feet above me on my grave...well, it's just a very depressing thought, I'll put it to you that way. Me? Personally I'd like to believe that there's something waiting for me at the end of my journey; a very beautiful and joyous eternal afterlife of somekind. Or who knows? Maybe the hindus have it right? Perhaps I'll be reincarnated as a monkey or whatever in my next lifetime...

(this, by the way, is one of my favorite lines to use against the "are you BORN AGAIN?" question posed by fundamentalist Christians: Yeah, I was a monkey in my past life, and a Christian one too. So therefore, I AM a "born again" Christian, am I not?) :p

The point is: If only for the sake of my own personal confidence and self esteem, knowing that there's something waiting for me after death --regardless of what anyone else may think or believe in-- do I believe in God and Jesus Christ. This, my friends, is true divine empowerment! Other than that, until someone could prove to me that God can pay my rent for me for the rest of my life (AND show copies of cancelled checks as proof) I really have very little use for whatever He/She/It may be on a practical, day to day basis.

But then again, who knows? Maybe the atheist are right all along, and there really is no God. So on that note my fellow atheists, which kind of vegetation would you like to become fertilizer for? I guess I better include that in my last will and testament, just in case, huh? ;)

Hope this answers your questions!

[H3LL]

Jambo, I'm sorry to say, but dominantly, people like you.

Like many, I was adventuring into the world of woo and prepared to accept it as such. However, the simplest of questions that would be asked by even a small child were answered with evasion and obfuscation or simply "because it is".

I have always been naturally curious and no woo in supposed authority gave answers that were even half-way acceptable. I came to realise over many years that it was all a con.

I didn't want to play anymore and hunted out others that thought the same.

For the record, each and every time you evade a direct and reasonable request to provide support from a credible source you are helping more and more people to be skeptical. Don't for one minute think that your obfuscation and evasion is going unnoticed by those that, for now, are partly on your side. In time, they will be your opponents.

I would like to add that I always enjoy your threads and think you are a valuable addition to the forums and often provoke fascinating discussion.

[Johnny Pneumatic]

I've been interested in science since a young child, wanted to grow up to be an "inventor" for many years. There are several verses in the Christian Bible that talk about the moon not giving "her light" in the last days and stars falling from heaven and to anyone who has any knowledge of the universe knows this is laughable. The moon reflects light. If the sun were darkened by God then the moon wouldn't reflect any light so the verse is rudundant. If the Bible were really God's word then wouldn't it say "Because the sun is darkened the moon will not reflect light upon the Earth; and the stars will not fall from heaven because this is ridiculous. Thus saith I the Lord the creator of everything thus I know this to be true. Don't take it on faith though, here use this telescope and other tools to see for yourself." Anyway, if followed the bible couldn't be god's word because of the scientific flaw and being taught that god existed and the bible said so was the only reason I believed. Skepticism in everything else followed right then also. I never have believed in phychics and astrology. Fundie tho she and my father is my mother taught me the saying "If it sounds to good to be true it probably is."