Can a skeptic meditate?

[plindboe]

Silly question, I know. There seems to be significant gains with meditation, like reduced stress and such, but there also seems to be alot of woo-woo ideas connected to the idea of meditation. Is it possible, that while being aware that meditation and potential resulting OBEs is just your own manipulation of your brain, to enjoy and benefit from the meditative experience non-the-less?

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

You dont have to believe in anything at all, its like yoga, a kind of exercise. But this time for your brain. Whats wrong with that?

[Nex]

I meditate. It's quite relaxing. Sometimes my mind does play weird perception tricks on me when I'm in a deep meditative "trance" state, but they're mostly tactile.

I have had some weird sensations while meditating, especially if I'm laying down. Floating sensations, or a spinning feeling. It's all just hallucination. (and fun, sometimes ;) )

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by plindboe
Silly question, I know. There seems to be significant gains with meditation, like reduced stress and such, but there also seems to be alot of woo-woo ideas connected to the idea of meditation. Is it possible, that while being aware that meditation and potential resulting OBEs is just your own manipulation of your brain, to enjoy and benefit from the meditative experience non-the-less?

I don't think there is any contradiction at all with being a skeptic and meditating.

Moreover, people compartamentalize things in their brain. No one is a 100% skeptic, or 100% believer.

I'd guess it depends specifically what you believe or think you are getting from meditation. Are you doing it to astrally project yourself to Neptune ;) , or for relaxation or to 'look inward', or something else?

[plindboe]

Originally posted by jzs
Moreover, people compartamentalize things in their brain. No one is a 100% skeptic, or 100% believer.

Small children and people with mental disabilities might be 100% non-skeptics, but otherwise I agree that skepticism is a sliding scale, even amongst the most ardent believers skepticism could be existant in some desgree.


Originally posted by jzs
I'd guess it depends specifically what you believe or think you are getting from meditation. Are you doing it to astrally project yourself to Neptune ;) , or for relaxation or to 'look inward', or something else?

I don't believe in anything paranormal; for instance astral projection etc. I'm only wondering whether 100% non-belief and meditation could be combined.

This might be linked to the placebo effect, can the awareness of an effect limit the possibilities of getting results because of it?

[Lisa Simpson]

I meditate and there is absolutely nothing woo involved. It relaxes me and quiets my mind, which is often going a million thoughts a minute.

Sometimes, I get this trippy buzzing feeling at the back of my skull. I like it. :D

[alfaniner]

As a martial artist for over two decades, we never taught/learned meditation as anything other than a relaxation process for settling the mind.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
I meditate and there is absolutely nothing woo involved. It relaxes me and quiets my mind, which is often going a million thoughts a minute.

Sometimes, I get this trippy buzzing feeling at the back of my skull. I like it. :D

That probably comes from a lack of oxygen. Are you sure you don't hyperventilate when you meditate?

[BPScooter]

Just a random shot at a moving target here, but if you haven't read it, read Hermann Hesse's "Glass Bead Game," and if you did read it, you might want to consult it again re. meditiation. I think he won the Nobel Prize for this one, it's really good.

[Lisa Simpson]

Originally posted by c4ts
That probably comes from a lack of oxygen. Are you sure you don't hyperventilate when you meditate?

Nope. Sometimes I get the same feeling when I'm falling asleep.

[rppa]

Originally posted by plindboeSilly question, I know. ...Is it possible, that while being aware that meditation and potential resulting OBEs is just your own manipulation of your brain, to enjoy and benefit from the meditative experience non-the-less?

Why not? It's just a relaxation technique.

I am becoming more and more convinced of the connection between OBE, medidative/semi-conscious states, and sleep paralysis.

Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
Sometimes, I get this trippy buzzing feeling at the back of my skull. I like it.

I've read a very similar description from someone who thought they were having an OBE. I also read about this "buzzing" from a description of a sleep paralysis episode. I haven't experienced it myself. In one OBE book I was reading, the author was describing trying to relax and get to a state halfway in between sleep and awake. Does that sound like it might have a lot in common with sleep paralysis and meditation?

[Lisa Simpson]

Originally posted by rppa

I've read a very similar description from someone who thought they were having an OBE. I also read about this "buzzing" from a description of a sleep paralysis episode. I haven't experienced it myself. In one OBE book I was reading, the author was describing trying to relax and get to a state halfway in between sleep and awake. Does that sound like it might have a lot in common with sleep paralysis and meditation?

Sleep paralysis is probably what's going on when I'm falling asleep. I don't think that's what's happening when I meditate. I don't think I'm getting that close to sleep when I meditate.

The strange thing with the buzzing feeling when falling asleep is that I recognize it for what it is. I almost always think to myself that since the buzzing feeling has arrived, I'm moments away from sleep.

[supercorgi]

Personally, I feel that meditation is a waste of time. To relax, I'd rather sit down with a good book.

[Seismosaurus]

What exactly is meditation? Descriptions I've read make it sound like nothing more than just relaxing. I mean, I sometimes lie on the couch and close my eyes and just lie there for a while doing nothing. Is that meditating? If not, what's the difference?

I read some stuff about "turn yourself inward" and such, but I can't really work out what that means.

[rppa]

Originally posted by Seismosaurus
What exactly is meditation? Descriptions I've read make it sound like nothing more than just relaxing. I mean, I sometimes lie on the couch and close my eyes and just lie there for a while doing nothing. Is that meditating? If not, what's the difference?

Your body can be relaxed but your brain still running around in a squirrel cage. If so, you're not going to feel very peaceful. I have no first-hand experience with insomnia, but I have the impression that such mental squirrel cages are a big part of it. It's surprisingly hard to "think about nothing".

I read some stuff about "turn yourself inward" and such, but I can't really work out what that means.

A typical exercise might be to actually notice your breathing, or your heartbeat, or the interesting feelings in your muscles and knees from the kneeling position you've been in for about 20 minutes longer than you would have believed possible. This is supposed to help you get away from fruitless pondering about what you're going to have for dinner, what your boss meant by that last remark, or whether that girl in the row ahead of you at the meditation workshop would agree to have a beer with you.

[jj]

Originally posted by plindboe
Silly question, I know. There seems to be significant gains with meditation, like reduced stress and such, but there also seems to be alot of woo-woo ideas connected to the idea of meditation. Is it possible, that while being aware that meditation and potential resulting OBEs is just your own manipulation of your brain, to enjoy and benefit from the meditative experience non-the-less?

Why not? Meditation, in my experience, is a good way to derail the adrenal express that many of us find ourselves living on. It also often seems to clear up the churn that modern life induces, and helps me to focus on something that needs to be stomped on hard. (I refer to technical problems, there.)

It's like Christmas. Do I do Christmas? No. Do I have a holiday, put up decorations, give presents? Yes. Why? BECAUSE PARTIES ARE GOOD FOR PEOPLE.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

I am a teacher of Transcendental Meditation and a skeptic. Of course, I haven't taken a backward glance at the TM movement since they told me they could teach me to fly, walk through walls, and talk to animals. Come to think of it, I haven't meditated much since then, either. But it is relaxing and pleasant.

~~ Paul

[plindboe]

Thanks for the many replies.

So what's the techniques? Any good non-woowooistic sites that give easy directions.

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

It depends. You can reach altered states of consciousness, is that woo??

I would suggest Vippassana, sit in a quiet place for 15 minutes each session, and just watch your breathing, without loosing concentration. Thats all! Easy! :D

Oh, wait, it appears to be easy. :p

[Seismosaurus]

Originally posted by rppa
Your body can be relaxed but your brain still running around in a squirrel cage. If so, you're not going to feel very peaceful. I have no first-hand experience with insomnia, but I have the impression that such mental squirrel cages are a big part of it. It's surprisingly hard to "think about nothing".

Hm, I do find it hard to think about nothing - I often can't get to sleep because I find myself running conversations or movies in my head, planning out what I'm going to do tomorrow, thinking through a plot point for something I'm writing, etc.

I often try to stop that by imagining I'm in an empty movie theatre, just staring at the blank screen fixedly. Doesn't really work well though.

A typical exercise might be to actually notice your breathing, or your heartbeat, or the interesting feelings in your muscles and knees from the kneeling position you've been in for about 20 minutes longer than you would have believed possible.

Jesus, I'd die if I stayed on my knees for 20 minutes!

This is supposed to help you get away from fruitless pondering about what you're going to have for dinner, what your boss meant by that last remark, or whether that girl in the row ahead of you at the meditation workshop would agree to have a beer with you.

Well, the last one isn't something I need to spend time on at least - the answer is "no she won't", problem solved.

I dunno, I suppose there must be something to it if so many people find it helpful (he said, on the skeptic's forum), but it's always sounded a bit wierd to me. Maybe I'm just prejudiced because the language around it sounds a bit wooish.

[cajela]

Yes, a sceptic can meditate. I have a bit, though right now I'm doing a relaxation practice instead. They are different in terms of the brain wave states induced. (There is actual science on this, try google scholar - http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=meditation+EEG )

There is some woo about, but I suggest you look on academic sites for mindfulness and mental health, and just droip the academic requirement if you want to buy tapes or CDs. Mindfulness is kind of Zen based, but Zen is AFAIK the least mystical variety of Buddhism.

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

You are right in your view of Zen :D

[rppa]

Originally posted by Seismosaurus
Hm, I do find it hard to think about nothing - I often can't get to sleep because I find myself running conversations or movies in my head, planning out what I'm going to do tomorrow, thinking through a plot point for something I'm writing, etc.

I often try to stop that by imagining I'm in an empty movie theatre, just staring at the blank screen fixedly. Doesn't really work well though.

The process of relaxing your body also generally involves focusing on individual muscle groups, which you relax one at a time. That kind of focus on the body might help you relax mentally as well.

Jesus, I'd die if I stayed on my knees for 20 minutes!

I actually went to a meditation workshop once, was horrified to discover that the day would be spent in 45 minute sessions of kneeling and meditating, and the instructor actually did give advice like that -- try not to change position, but instead contemplate the sensations.

I did notice that most of the experienced folks had these funny little stools that meant they didn't have to sit all the way down on their knees but were up a few inches.

I dunno, I suppose there must be something to it if so many people find it helpful (he said, on the skeptic's forum), but it's always sounded a bit wierd to me. Maybe I'm just prejudiced because the language around it sounds a bit wooish.

There's certainly that element. So look for secular books on relaxation techniques if you don't want the stuff that's heavily steeped in Buddhism or whatever. I'm sure they're out there, and relaxation is what this is all about. It's exactly the same idea as those tapes with the ocean sounds and the soft voice telling you how to relax.

[LucyR]

I always found I had to put too much effort into meditation to get anything out of it. There was always this little voice in my head saying "hell, this is boring". In all honesty, I find that playing computer games while drinking beer is the most effective means of relaxation.