"Homeopathic" cold remedy?

[Trebuchet]

I made the mistake of coughing at my mom's house and she trotted out three bottles of Zicam. It's labled "homeopathic". The ingredients are listed as "Zincum gluconium 1X, Zincum acetium 2X". Based on my very limited understanding of homeopathy, I think that means Zinc Gluconate 10% and Zinc Acetate 1%.

My questions:
1. Is my interpretation of 1X and 2X concentrations correct? If so, that's a far higher concentration than in the usual homeopathic "medicines". In fact, higher than some real medicines.
2. If the answer above is "yes", why is it labled "homeopathic"? Are they just trying to dodge FDA oversight?
3. Is there any real evidence as to the efficacy of zinc as a cold treatment?

[geni]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

My questions:
1. Is my interpretation of 1X and 2X concentrations correct? If so, that's a far higher concentration than in the usual homeopathic "medicines". In fact, higher than some real medicines.

Technicaly it depends on the concentration of the mother tincture so it could be a bit below the concentraitions you list but basicaly yes

2. If the answer above is "yes", why is it labled "homeopathic"? Are they just trying to dodge FDA oversight?


yep lovely great loophole in the US drug laws there.


3. Is there any real evidence as to the efficacy of zinc as a cold treatment?

yes

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15496046

I don't know if it really works or not though.

[Barbrae]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
My questions:

2. If the answer above is "yes", why is it labled "homeopathic"? Are they just trying to dodge FDA oversight?


It is called "homeopathic" because it is based on the thinking that it will cure the common symptoms of a cold because it produces such symptoms in a healthy individual. A substance need not be of any particular concentration to be a homeopathic substance. It is homeopathic if it cures what it causes.

[Lisa Simpson]

I've tried it and as anecdotal evidence only--it worked for me, but only when I took at the first sign of a cold. If I waited even a day to start, it was useless. But it did burn the inside of my nose like you wouldn't believe. Felt like it was on fire.

[CurtC]

Here's the sordid tale of Zicam that I've been able to piece together. For several years, Zinc lozenges were believed to help cure colds, but scientific studies didn't bear out this claim. One company wanted to get in on the action, and put the Zinc in suspension, to be squirted directly into the nose. They commissioned a study of 250-300 people, which did show that there was some small benefit.

Of course, this was one small study, not replicated, which by itself is a far cry from showing effectiveness to the satisfaction of the FDA, and the question of safety (the FDA cares about safety and effectiveness) had not even been begun to be addressed.

So the company figured out an end run - they somehow showed the keepers of homeopathic nostrums that Zinc could cause the symptoms of colds in high concentrations, so they added it to the list of things considered to be valid homeopathic remedies (the law of "similars"). Now they can market it without FDA approval! Isn't that great? And FDA approval takes years, instead of the months they took to get Zicam out.

Since the Zinc is at a 1% concentration, that's two 10:1 dilutions, called "2X" in homepathic nonsense-speak. Does it work? In my estimation, it might, since there is one study with a positive outcome. But I wouldn't want to buy it just because of the sleazy way it was brought to market.

[geni]

Originally posted by Barbrae
It is called "homeopathic" because it is based on the thinking that it will cure the common symptoms of a cold because it produces such symptoms in a healthy individual. A substance need not be of any particular concentration to be a homeopathic substance. It is homeopathic if it cures what it causes.

Err no. I am not aware of an proving of this product . It is technicaly a combination theapy so not legit under clasical (but ok under practicatal). It is a US product so potencies in the order of 10C pluss would be expected if it was trying to be homaopthic. Even in europe not much appears below 4X.

Incerdently under the defintion you are using Cis platin is a homepathic product which rather blows the whole no side effects (and safe and natural) thing out of the water.

[Rolfe]

The Zicam manufacturers were successfully sued by someone who lost his sense of smell after using the stuff. Details on Quackwatch somewhere, and at least one earlier thread on the subject.

Apparently the patient showed evidence that spraying zinc up the nose carried some risk of sensory impairment, and the Zicam guys knew this. Therefore they were liable.

Rolfe.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Barbrae
It is called "homeopathic" because it is based on the thinking that it will cure the common symptoms of a cold because it produces such symptoms in a healthy individual. A substance need not be of any particular concentration to be a homeopathic substance. It is homeopathic if it cures what it causes. Sorry, but that is not homeopathy. Sure, concentration is not crucial, but to be a homeopathic rmedy, it needs to be potentized (maybe it is).

For the treatment to be homeopathic, it needs to be individualized. Using a remedy (whether homeopathic or not), on a generic diagnosis is not homeopathy.

Hans

[Sarah-I]

Geni,

This remedy is called CISPLATINUM and has undergone its own proving in 1981-1982 by Julian using 24 men and 10 women.

It has its own set of proving symptoms in the Materia Medica that I am looking at now.

[Psiload]

Originally posted by Sarah-I
Geni,

This remedy is called CISPLATINUM and has undergone its own proving in 1981-1982 by Julian using 24 men and 10 women.

It has its own set of proving symptoms in the Materia Medica that I am looking at now.

This should be read as "proving", rather than proving.

The homeopathic concept of proof is quite different than the generally accepted meaning of the word.

[geni]

Originally posted by Sarah-I
Geni,

This remedy is called CISPLATINUM and has undergone its own proving in 1981-1982 by Julian using 24 men and 10 women.

It has its own set of proving symptoms in the Materia Medica that I am looking at now.

I'm talking about real medical use. It is used as an anticancer drug. It is also a carcinogen (hardly suppriseing if you consider it's method of action). Therefore by the defintion that Barbrae was using it is being used homeopathicaly. I am aware that pretty much every drug has been made up in homeopathic potencies however this is not relivant to the current point although it does rise some interesting seperate issues.

[Sarah-I]

Here we go again Hansel. He thinks he knows more about homeopathy than all the homeopaths put together. Also, he still never bothers to read anyones posts properly either. I can see what Bach meant about you, when he time and time again said that you had comprehension problems. Can you not make that your New Years resolution to go and deal with your reading and comprehension problems?

What Barb actually said was "It is homeopathic if it cures what it causes". To find a remedy that cures what it causes then you obviously have to individualise the remedy by talking to the patient. I would have thought that was obvious by now Hans - or do you not know that yet?

[Sarah-I]

Yes Geni, I am well aware of what the drug Cisplatin is used for and that it is a chemotherapeutic agent.

[MRC_Hans]

Heheh, I seem to have made quite an impression on both Bach and Sarah. At least they both launch into lengthy personal attacks whenever they see my posts. Well, I'm shure that beats addressing my arguments :rolleyes:.

Hans

[geni]

Originally posted by Sarah-I
What Barb actually said was "It is homeopathic if it cures what it causes". To find a remedy that cures what it causes then you obviously have to individualise the remedy by talking to the patient. I would have thought that was obvious by now Hans - or do you not know that yet?

Oh dear you appear to be confusion clasical and semi clasical with the whole family of homeopathy. I mean who needs to talk to a paicent when you can connect them up to a couple of electrodes and get a machine to produce a matching remedy. Or you do something simular with hair samples. You can always dowse for a remedy if that takes your fancy. in the more clasical tradition there is the whole genus epidemicus thing (or whatever it's called my latin isn't up to much).

[geni]

Originally posted by Sarah-I
Yes Geni, I am well aware of what the drug Cisplatin is used for and that it is a chemotherapeutic agent.

Good then you will have seen my orginal point and relised that the apearnce of cisplatin as a homeopathic remedy was a seperate issue.

[Lisa Simpson]

Originally posted by Sarah-I

To find a remedy that cures what it causes then you obviously have to individualise the remedy by talking to the patient.

But then Zicam, the subject of this thread, cannot be homeopathic since it's not individualized.

[Psiload]

Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
But then Zicam, the subject of this thread, cannot be homeopathic since it's not individualized. Here comes the chronic vs. acute condition fairytale again.

[Sarah-I]

Well done - correct. The Zincum is not homeopathic.

Yes Geni, I realise that you were talking about a whole different issue.

I am a Classical Homeopath and sit down and talk to my patient and then find the remedy. I do not and never have used machines and hair analysis. I do not use dowsing either.

I think that Barb practices in the same way too, as far as I can gather.

[Lisa Simpson]

Originally posted by Sarah-I
Well done - correct. The Zincum is not homeopathic.

...snip...

I think that Barb practices in the same way too, as far as I can gather.

But Barb said above:

It is called "homeopathic" because it is based on the thinking that it will cure the common symptoms of a cold because it produces such symptoms in a healthy individual.

Clearly, she stated Zicam is homeopathic.

[Trebuchet]

Gee, sorry I asked. I didn't mean to start a shouting match.

The particular version of Zicam I took, by the way, was a sugary lozenge, not the nasal spray although she had that as well.

[geni]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
Gee, sorry I asked. I didn't mean to start a shouting match.

That wasn't a shouting match.

[CurtC]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
The particular version of Zicam I took, by the way, was a sugary lozenge, not the nasal spray although she had that as well.The Straight Dope on Zinc Lozenges (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a980206.html)