Derren Brown

[CWL]

I just saw a Derren Brown TV show for the first time. Wow - this guy is good: www.derrenbrown.co.uk (http://www.derrenbrown.co.uk)

Does he have any connection with the JREF?

[Azrael 5]

The answer to your question is no,this thread however may interest you
http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50919

[CWL]

Interesting indeed.

If Mr. Brown isn't associated with the JREF, I must say that IMHO he certainly should be. He would be ideal for setting up conditions and supervising preliminary tests.

Perhaps he could head a branch office in Europe? It would be great if the JREF had permament representation on this side of the Pond!

[Dragon]

Originally posted by CWL
Interesting indeed.

If Mr. Brown isn't associated with the JREF, I must say that IMHO he certainly should be. He would be ideal for setting up conditions and supervising and preliminary tests.

Perhaps he could head a branch office in Europe? It would be great if the JREF had permament representation on this side of the Pond! I expressed similar sentiments on the other thread.
Though I think that DB has some more money to earn at his craft before he takes up the JREF baton - he's only in his early 30s.

[Dragon]

Slightly off topic - I've been lurking around on Derren Brown's forum and bumped into an old friend (http://www.derrenbrownforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=4678&sid=377c17c5ae9bba02a68289d2a568f39a). I think the guy needs help.

[CWL]

Originally posted by Dragon
I expressed similar sentiments on the other thread.
Though I think that DB has some more money to earn at his craft before he takes up the JREF baton - he's only in his early 30s.

This is of course true, but it certainly isn't to early for him and Randi to do lunch.

I hope they do.

[Dragon]

Originally posted by CWL
This is of course true, but it certainly isn't to early for him and Randi to do lunch.

I hope they do. Agreed. I'd love to be there!

[TheBoyPaj]

Your watch would be missing before the starters arrived.

[CWL]

Originally posted by TheBoyPaj
Your watch would be missing before the starters arrived.
:D

[Azrael 5]

..and the four of hearts would be found minus its corner in your shoe!!;)

[Dragon]

Originally posted by Azrael 5
..and the four of hearts would be found minus its corner in your shoe!!;) ...and I'd be convinced that the starter included thin bits of toast to go with the pate&acute only to find that I was eating the rest of the four of hearts.

[Azrael 5]

Originally posted by Dragon
...and I'd be convinced that the starter included thin bits of toast to go with the pate&acute only to find that I was eating the rest of the four of hearts.
Precisely,butwhat a night it would be!!:D

[Dragon]

DB and Randi are evidently in touch already - see the latest Commentary (http://www.randi.org/jr/012105the.html#3) ... Derren and I are in touch, and I've seen these wonders. He compares well with our Banachek, and I can't wait to see these two together! I hope to make a much closer relationship with Mr. Brown, and perhaps work a plot or two with him. Stay tuned! ...

and -

It seems apparent that we have to establish much closer ties to Derren, and we'll try to get him to attend and participate in the next Amaz!ing Meeting.

[pjh]

I know this has been done to death but what makes Derren one of the good guys and say Uri Geller not?

Both do tricks, and both lead viewers to believe they achieve them in ways they do not.

The net is awash with the NLP/Hypnosis crowd believing this is what they're seeing.

And I know it's a big in joke with magicians, most of them loving to go along with the Hypnosis/NLP/Body Language stuff.

Whats wrong with this? Uri Geller only claimed he could bend a spoon with his mind. While probably never making the direct claim, Derren 'claims' he can make people do things by saying particular words that incluence people at the subconcious level. Gellers claim can only go so far, Derrens if it was widely believed would have far greater consequences.

And whats more he does this by cheating.

For TV magic to be more impressive than ventriloquism on the radio there have to be some rules. The camera must be a fair representation of what you would see as a viewer.

Take the latest DB - Messiah where he does his remote viewing. He asks a girl to do a drawing in the next room and successfully reproduces the drawing. Now I guess many magicians here could reproduce the trick and this would be great - Derren has shown these people can be tricked and I'd love if he left it here.

However, Derren is heard in his instructions to the girl saying 'Sail on through' and 'Don't go overboard' - and she draws a Sailboat. Now this would be impressive - before she had drawn the picture Derren has a hit!!

However when you watch the tape again it all becomes apparent, the NLP instructions have been dubbed over, he's not seen to actually say these words in situ.

Now I appreciate there's a difference between using camera trickey to achieve the trick and camera edits to misdirect, but it's still cheating all the same.

Probably less so if you're presenting a straight magic show (there's camera edits in his normal shows), but to do this in a mock 'Expose the cheaters' documentary is straight wrong.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by pjh
I know this has been done to death but what makes Derren one of the good guys and say Uri Geller not?

DB clearly says that - and explains why - he does not have paranormal powers.

DB f*cks with your mind, and lets you know that he does so. Geller f*cks with your mind, but claims that he has supernatural powers.

That's the difference.

[Dragon]

pjh - I think you missed the point of the show. DB was fooling the various leaders in their field of belief, not the TV audience.

From his website (http://www.derrenbrown.co.uk/messiah.asp) Q&A page on "Messiah" (note my bolding) Q: How would you describe the programme?
Derren Brown: It's a personal journey for me, quite a dark journey. It's a documentary styled show where I go to America and meet some influential people behind certain belief-systems that people are encouraged to base their lives upon. Two targets are new-age beliefs and mainstream Christianity. Using my techniques and showmanship can I get these people who are responsible for the beliefs of hundreds of thousands of people, to endorse me as being the real thing? I approach these people under different pseudonyms, demonstrating to each of them an ability I have which is somehow proof to them of my abilities in that particular field. I allow them to decide how much they are going to endorse it and embrace it. If at any point they say to me this is some sort of trick I will confess and tell them.


Claus - did you see my link to DB's forum above? - 5th post down.

[plindboe]

Originally posted by pjh
I know this has been done to death but what makes Derren one of the good guys and say Uri Geller not?

The one pretends to use super powers, the other doesn't. Simple as that.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Dragon
Claus - did you see my link to DB's forum above? - 5th post down.

Yep. I am not surprised one bit that Lucianarchy still peddles his lies around the Internet. Those who believed he would stop hopefully have learned a lesson in just how low humans can go.

Lucianarchy will never stop. Ever.

[pjh]

I still don't get this ... have you actually seen DBs Show?

He makes it clear that although he does not actually have any paranormal powers, his tricks are performed using:

+ NLP
+ His Extraordinarly ability to read body language

As I previously said, this is reinforced in the TV show by camera edits and audio dubbing.

In one of his other shows he does a card trick, and then clearly says "That is the last card trick you will see tonight".
... Then he does more card tricks.

In the UK the TV audience for a magician is almost zero. The only way to have a TV show is to make some claims that what the viewer is seeing is *not* the same old tricks Paul Daniels et al have been doing for years.

See Simon Singh's article here (http://www.simonsingh.net/Derren_Brown_Article.html)

He explains why people like me have a problem with Derren!

[deBergerac]

As far as I have understood it Derren is one of the honest liars that are good guys, just like Randi and Banachek. He will not tell you exactly what he does (and he may lie about how he does it) because that would take away the “magic� he is after all a performer. But he never claims to have supernatural powers unlike UG.

I hope we can have him for TAM4.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by pjh
He explains why people like me have a problem with Derren!

That's beside the point. The point is, does DB claim supernatural powers, yes or no?

[dann]

Originally posted by pjh
In one of his other shows he does a card trick, and then clearly says "That is the last card trick you will see tonight".
... Then he does more card tricks.
We cannot under any circumstances let him get away with that!!! This calls for severe punishment!

[TheBoyPaj]

Originally posted by pjh
I still don't get this ... have you actually seen DBs Show?

He makes it clear that although he does not actually have any paranormal powers, his tricks are performed using:

+ NLP
+ His Extraordinarly ability to read body language

As I previously said, this is reinforced in the TV show by camera edits and audio dubbing.


That's not exactly true. I don't have the exact quiote to hand but in the last series of "Trick Of The Mind", every show was prefaced with a statement along the lines of "these tricks use a combination of suggestion, hypnosis, showmanship and magic".

That allows for lies, IMO.

[Azrael 5]

Derren did initially claim no magic tricks on his first series,but there was some kind of outcry so now he states the NLP/Body language spiel.
pjh:exactly what is your problem with Derren,that he fools you,or that you dont like the pretence of body language etc to cover up a magic trick?
:D

Edited to add Simon Singh has no idea what he's talking about in his article,neither.One example:the poker game- he so happily exposes the magic trick method for-isnt achieved that way.As a magician I know how its done and many other of Derrens feats,seems to me Mr Singh just doesnt like being fooled!
;)

[pjh]

pjh:exactly what is your problem with Derren,that he fools you,or that you dont like the pretence of body language etc to cover up a magic trick?

I love to be fooled by a good magician, and I wish there were more on TV. However the general public in the UK has grown jaded of magic, and in my opinion a magic TV show would not be commisioned. Derren's 'fine print' may be OK, but he does everything possible to give the impression he has extra-ordinary powers.

"these tricks use a combination of suggestion, hypnosis, showmanship and magic".

And Hypnosis? Exactly what is that? - Is this a euphemism for some instant stooge going along with Derren because there's a camera? Ahhhh now the 'cabbie scene' makes sense :)

[RonSceptic]

Originally posted by TheBoyPaj
That's not exactly true. I don't have the exact quiote to hand but in the last series of "Trick Of The Mind", every show was prefaced with a statement along the lines of "these tricks use a combination of suggestion, hypnosis, showmanship and magic".

That allows for lies, IMO.


Yes, he actually includes 'misdirection' in his list of techniques at the outset. So everyone should be aware that all is not what it seems on his show.

The important point is that he proves that you can present seemingly convincing miracles on TV using absolutely no paranormal means whatsoever. That should be enough to raise doubts in the minds of those who have been taken in by other shows claiming supernatural methods.

I think it is particularly jermain to the arguments about mediums. We have had endless threads here regarding John Edward, Colin Fry et al. Most of the time it boils down to an analysis of readings broadcast on TV. Yet none of these reading are remotely as impressive ,IMHO, as Derrens 'readings' on Messiah.

If John Edward had performed the same readings the believers would no doubt be trumpeting them as proof positive of his powers, and asking us to explain them. They would not of course accept that there was any possibility of a mundane explanation.

Hopefully those that saw Messiah will at least question why one performance requires nothing more than trickery while the other relies on the unproven premises that people survive death, can communicate with the living, and chose to turn up in a TV studio is pass on vague and inaccurate mutterings on demand.

Derren is challenging the acceptance of the paranormal premise before a wide audience. That has to be a good thing.:)

[Darat]

One quote of Singh's caught my eye:

…The truth is that it is nothing to do with psychology or body language. Instead it is a magic trick….

Aren't all magic tricks "psychology" or have a I missed something in all these years?

[Azrael 5]

Singh seems to be a bit bitter,in my opinion,he was taken in and doesnt like it.


Originally posted by pjh Derren's 'fine print' may be OK, but he does everything possible to give the impression he has extra-ordinary powers.
Whats extraordinary about reading body language or psychology?;)
Also he doesnt state hypnosis in his opening speech,merely magic,misdirection and showmanship.Regards instant stooge and the cabbie,whilst I doubt it was hypnosis or stooge;cameras can be used to induce certain behaviour.If you had a camera stuck in your face whilst trying to remember where you were going-and someone manipulating you verbally-I think maybe you would act differently.:D

[richardm]

In other shocking news, Kermit the Frog is actually not a real frog.

[RonSceptic]

Originally posted by richardm
In other shocking news, Kermit the Frog is actually not a real frog.


[believer mode]

That's right. He is in fact a toad masquerading as a frog.

[/believer mode]

[pjh]

One quote of Singh's caught my eye:

…The truth is that it is nothing to do with psychology or body language. Instead it is a magic trick….

Aren't all magic tricks "psychology" or have a I missed something in all these years?

Isn't this almost exactly what Randi said when asked

this is a quote from another thread here on JRef forums:

I actually wrote to Randi once about Derren Brown to say how impressive it was to see what he could do using psychological trickery.
Randi replied to say basically, no, it's just normal trickery.
I looked at his act again and basically slapped my head in stupidity.

[Darat]

Originally posted by pjh
Isn't this almost exactly what Randi said when asked

this is a quote from another thread here on JRef forums:

I don't see how what magicians do can be described as anything but applied psychology from misdirection, to false steps and beyond: it's all about creating an illusion of doing something that my senses would have me think is impossible.

[Azrael 5]

I think you have it right Darat. Just to add,there is a lot of psychology in magic,knowing what people will do and say,where they will look(misdirection)etc.Put some cards on a table and leave one slightly further forward than the others and spectator will favour it etc. There are other examples,read Banachek book Psychological subtleties(he's a magician,dont you know):D

[Ashles]

Sorry I was being lazy when I mentioned I had e-mailed Randi about Derren.

Here is the full (brief) e-mail correspondence:

My e-mail to Randi (sent a while ago when I'd just started hearing about Derren):
Hello Mr Randi from the UK.

We have an illusionist/mentalist who is gaining popularity over here called Derren Brown who has some fantastic psychological techniques for cold reading, prediction etc. He performs way higher than any psychic I have ever seen attempting the same trickery and enjoys explaining (to some extent - he won't put himself out of a job) the techniques behind his performances.

One web site dedicated to him has several interesting psychological links and techniques described which I thought you and your readers might enjoy:

http://www.derrenbrown.150m.com/

Randi replies:
Lots have written about Brown. The "methods" he "explains" are
distractions....

James Randi

Okay it was rather silly of me to think that he hadn't already heard about Derren.

My subsequent e-mail to Randi:
Sorry, I'm confused. Are these methods not anything to do with how he
performs his 'readings'?

Are you saying these are merely distractions from the actual methods?

Randi responds in an extremely brief, yet clear manner:
Yes, and yes.

James Randi

So there we go. Derren may use the basic minor psychological magicians' tools of misdirection, forcing a choice through prominence etc.
But he almost certainly isn't using NLP or 'advanced psychological' techniques etc.

It's good old fashioned tricks with a new spin.

[Dr Adequate]

Ooh, some of you are so scepticky. Sometimes Derren Brown is definitely reading body language. For example, the trick where he holds your hands and you lead him to a concealed object? That's a very, very old carney trick, and yes, it is done by body language. There's an interesting account in Surely You're Joking, Mr Feynmann where Richard Feynmann, having heard the method described, tries it on a colleague and gets it right first time. Just... jiggle the hands, and feel which way the person wants to go. It's that easy.

Besides this, I think in some tricks Derren Brown must either be using psychological methods or more stooges than any magician before or since. Consider the "voodoo doll" trick, the "spoonbending" trick, the "shopping mall hypnosis" trick... I'll detail the spoonbending trick. Two people were given spoons to hold, and were "suggested" into seeing them bending. At home, on TV, we could see that they weren't bending at all. Stooges or suggestion?

I think there are enough tricks like that that he does for Hume's dictum actually to confirm the "miracle"... I find it easier to believe that Derren Brown does have some sort of genuine strong ability of verbal suggestion (amongst all his other repetoire of jiggery pokery) than that he's managed to keep so many people quiet, knowing that just one whistleblower would send his entertainment career into freefall.

By the way, there have been some disparaging references on this thread to "NLP" --- in the Sceptics' Dictionary this refers to one particular crank school of psychotherapy. It does not refer generally to verbal suggestion, which is a well-documented psychological phenomenon.

Slight derail, scepticky people, I just read a debunking book called Mind Myths --- a collection of fully-referenced papers by professional psychologists, not just pop-science --- which still acknowleged a weak effect for... dah dah dah... subliminal messages. I'll post some quotes and their references if you like.

[Azrael 5]

So there we go. Derren may use the basic minor psychological magicians' tools of misdirection, forcing a choice through prominence etc.

Try telling that to the muppets on his forum.e.g "Where can I get a super memory like Derren";"Where can I learn NLP to make someone pay out on a winning ticket at a dog track"
AD Nauseum :D