Psychics and inability to admit being wrong

[plindboe]

Now, this is not a thread about psychic bashing, I'm seriously asking for unbiased views.

I have noticed, when looking at popular psychics and when debating psychics that there seems to be a complete inability for them to admit when they are wrong. The psychic field is certainly crammed with excuses, there's no doubt about that. People in the field always seem to rationalize their way out of being wrong. Has a person like Sylvia Browne for instance ever admitted to being wrong? Is this confirmation bias on my part, or is there really something to it? Any thoughts?

[jmercer]

No, they occasionally admit to being wrong. (The smarter ones do, at any rate.)

But then they rationalize it by taking the blame as a human being instead of as a psychic - as in "My bad - my powers/my spirit guide was perfectly correct and infallible as always, I simply misinterpreted what I saw. But I'm only human, after all!"

Sometimes they claim that there were other factors "obscuring the reading", etc.

[Ashles]

I saw a programme the other night about Multiple Personality Disorders and how critics of the treatment have serious doubts about the validity of the disorder.

I'll write a full post about this another time as I feel it is very relevant to Psychics and mediums.

But a brief outline:
Some people (including a psychiatrist who treated Sybil - the patient who made the disorder famous and the subject of the film 'Sybil') believe that the therapists treating these sufferers are actually encouraging the subject to create the personalities and encouraging them all to talk all the time.
These therapists claim to be trying to get the multiple personalities to talk to each other and thereby reunify. However this doesn't seem to be what they are actually doing.

Interestingly the sufferers express little desire to lose any of their multiple personalities as they feel it would be, to some extent, "a little piece of them dying".

Now, to cut a long story short, I believe it is possible that those mediums and psychics who seem to genuinely believe they are communicating with the dead are displaying a variant of this disorder.
It would explain the unwillingness to admit they are wrong, the unwillingness to be tested and, despite the common protestations that they "wish they didn't have this gift" they keep using it.
The other voices make them special, get them attention and are important to their whole sense of self.

Like I said I'll go into more detail another time but I reckon this is at least a possibility and could make an interesting study, if you could get any mediums to take part (unlikely I know).

[jmercer]

Originally posted by Ashles
Now, to cut a long story short, I believe it is possible that those mediums and psychics who seem to genuinely believe they are communicating with the dead are displaying a variant of this disorder.
It would explain the unwillingness to admit they are wrong, the unwillingness to be tested and, despite the common protestations that they "wish they didn't have this gift" they keep using it.
The other voices make them special, get them attention and are important to their whole sense of self.

Like I said I'll go into more detail another time but I reckon this is at least a possibility and could make an interesting study, if you could get any mediums to take part (unlikely I know).

I'll certainly join in on a thread on this topic - it's a really, really great idea on your part. And in the cases where the psychic doesn't make money or attempt to make a living at what they do, I'm willing to entertain the notion.

But I wouldn't go so far as to dismiss true MPD out of hand - there are documented psychological conditions that are physical in derivation where completely different personalities seem to appear at times, and the jury is still out on "classical" MPD. Not my field, but I've read up on it since I find it interesting. :)

Intriguing comment.

[Ashles]

But I wouldn't go so far as to dismiss true MPD out of hand

Sorry I meant to say:

Critics of the treatment have serious doubts about the validity of some diagnoses of the disorder and several aspects of the widely recommended treatment.

I didn't mean to imply that the critics thought it doesn't exist at all (although that does pretty much look like what I said :) )

[TheBoyPaj]

Geller always says that his powers might not work. It's part of his speil.

If a psychic gives the impression that their ability is temperamental it:
a) makes the audience sympathetic to the performer and makes them want something to happen
b) gives a convenient excuse if they suddenly cannot perform (such as they didn't catch a glimpse of the picture, or a guess goes wrong).

[Pragmatist]

Originally posted by Ashles

I didn't mean to imply that the critics thought it doesn't exist at all (although that does pretty much look like what I said :) )

Aha! You see how these postmodernpseudoskeptics try to rationalise their way out of things instead of admitting they were wrong!

:D

[Ashles]

Like Hawk One I am, and will always be a dyed-in-the-wool premetaphiloquasipostneoquantumpseudoscienceskepti c.

Chicks dig it.

[KelvinG]

If there is an audience, psychics like John Edward or Sylvia Browne often claim that they are getting information that might be from someone else other than the person they reading. That way, you can never be wrong. You're just picking up a stray signal from someone else.

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by Ashles
I saw a programme the other night about Multiple Personality Disorders and how critics of the treatment have serious doubts about the validity of the disorder.

I'll write a full post about this another time as I feel it is very relevant to Psychics and mediums.

But a brief outline:
Some people (including a psychiatrist who treated Sybil - the patient who made the disorder famous and the subject of the film 'Sybil') believe that the therapists treating these sufferers are actually encouraging the subject to create the personalities and encouraging them all to talk all the time.
These therapists claim to be trying to get the multiple personalities to talk to each other and thereby reunify. However this doesn't seem to be what they are actually doing.

Interestingly the sufferers express little desire to lose any of their multiple personalities as they feel it would be, to some extent, "a little piece of them dying".

Now, to cut a long story short, I believe it is possible that those mediums and psychics who seem to genuinely believe they are communicating with the dead are displaying a variant of this disorder.
It would explain the unwillingness to admit they are wrong, the unwillingness to be tested and, despite the common protestations that they "wish they didn't have this gift" they keep using it.
The other voices make them special, get them attention and are important to their whole sense of self.

Like I said I'll go into more detail another time but I reckon this is at least a possibility and could make an interesting study, if you could get any mediums to take part (unlikely I know).

NAIL -- HEAD -- BANG

I've saved Ashles post in my "Great Insights at the JREF" file. It's like some folk decided not to give up their "invisible friends" of early childhood. It is another religion. A comfort for very lonely, alienated people???

Now what about the supporters and propagandists of the paranormal like Puthof, Schwarz, Josephson, etc.? Dr Susan Blackmore showed it is possible to be a parapsychologist then totally give up on the idea.

Do the others still "believe" or are they intransigent, eccentric, non-conformists with vested interests?

[jambo372]

I've heard a few admit being wrong, especially trainees, but in some cases they turn out not to be - the person forgot something.

[Pats]

Originally posted by jambo372
I've heard a few admit being wrong, especially trainees, but in some cases they turn out not to be - the person forgot something.

Oh here you are, Jambo, I thought maybe you hadn't posted in a while sense I hadn't seen a response to my (and others) question to you in this thread:http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50709&perpage=40&pagenumber=3

I imagine you probably forgot about the thread (I have done this myself) so I thought I would go ahead and bring it to your attention.

Steve

[Tex]

Originally posted by plindboe
Now, this is not a thread about psychic bashing, I'm seriously asking for unbiased views.

I have noticed, when looking at popular psychics and when debating psychics that there seems to be a complete inability for them to admit when they are wrong. The psychic field is certainly crammed with excuses, there's no doubt about that. People in the field always seem to rationalize their way out of being wrong. Has a person like Sylvia Browne for instance ever admitted to being wrong? Is this confirmation bias on my part, or is there really something to it? Any thoughts?

I've noticed that too, particularly in the case of Sylvia Browne.

Once, when discussing a "haunted" house, she began rattling off details about the house's previous inhabitants. When the owner informed her that the house was built a few years ago and in fact had no previous inhabitants, Sylvia, without skipping a beat, offered up the rationalization that she actually knew that but was referring to people who lived in a house that used to be there a long time ago. Yeah, that's the ticket.

So I think that the inability to admit being wrong is actually a vital asset for a psychic. Nobody's going to be impressed with a psychic who's constantly making mistakes.

In fact the inability to admit mistakes is something I've noticed in a lot of successful people. I've known a couple of CEOs who were just like that -- always ready with the rationalization, if not the outright lie. And not just as part of the job, either. It seemed to be part of the personality. When most people are caught in a mistake they might jokingly say "I was just testing you." I had a boss who said that after being corrected on a simple mathematical error, but he was dead serious -- not a hint of a smile. And we all remember when Bush recently failed to come up with a single thing he would have done differently.

[Ashles]

Also psychics are aided and reinforced in their utterly transparent rationalisations for their frequent mistakes by the wide eyed, credulous, highly suggestible people who surround them most of the time.

For example I remember a post by someone that went something like:
I've heard a few admit being wrong, especially trainees, but in some cases they turn out not to be - the person forgot something.

If you are surrounded by people like that how are you supposed to retain your own sense of reality?

[Sharon]

Hi all (Newbie)

And we also have the fact that the client gets the info wrong which doesn't help. I remember for 4 years telling everyone the psychic told me I would have twin girls, which I did. I played back the tape last year and it's not the case at all. She said two girls born quite near each other, that's not twins, twins is twins. There is so much that the customer gets wrong too isn't there? Just to point out I no longer go, no longer believe mediums have 'contact'. I remember reading something about John Edwards purposley tells people in advance that he's not all that good so that when he does get a hit it seems even more fantastic? Or did I dream that???

Much Love
Sharon

[Ashles]

Welcome Sharon.

. I remember reading something about John Edwards purposley tells people in advance that he's not all that good so that when he does get a hit it seems even more fantastic? Or did I dream that???
This is very common (I think someone was talking about this only yesterday with regard to Uri Geller).

Bizarrely this even makes some people more convinced it is real because the ability is prone to failure!

The human mind is a weird and wonderful thing.

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Humans have trouble admiting they are wrong, no matter if they are "skeptics" or "believers", I would say its a human condition, I would add that it is necessary for survival in complex societies.

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by The Mighty Thor
Dr Susan Blackmore showed it is possible to be a parapsychologist then totally give up on the idea.



Yes, but a more important question is whether it's possible to be a Skeptic but then totally give up on the idea?

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Originally posted by Ashles
If you are surrounded by people like that how are you supposed to retain your own sense of reality?

Thats a good question. But what about anyone else? Is anybody free from having a "shared" sense of reality?

[Psi Baba]

Originally posted by Ashles
I believe it is possible that those mediums and psychics who seem to genuinely believe they are communicating with the dead are displaying a variant of this disorder.
I like your hypothesis. I'd like to add that alternatively, if the critics of MPD are correct that MPD is an artificial condition, then the psychics could be like the therapists (rather than the patients), manipulating the subject's perceptions and creating the illusion that another presence in the room besides the psychic and subject.

[Ashles]

I like your hypothesis. I'd like to add that alternatively, if the critics of MPD are correct that MPD is an artificial condition, then the psychics could be like the therapists (rather than the patients), manipulating the subject's perceptions and creating the illusion that another presence in the room besides the psychic and subject.
Actually Jambo's post above got me thinking that it could be the people getting the readings who were acting as the 'therapist role'.

After all they are the ones encouraging the presence of the other personalities.
It is they who the 'psychic' is trying to please by manifesting these other personalities.
It is they who the 'psychic' is trying to please by saying things that might be relevant or interesting to them.
It is their suggestions that may be helping to create the 'alter' of the dead person.

Another thing - does anyone know the ratio of female to male mediums and psychics? Because 85% of MPD patients are female. I wonder how closely this would correlate?

[sophia8]

Going back to Ashle's mention of MPD, I know there have been a number of MPD patients who have been cured by the simple expedient of stopping the therapy that encouraged their 'alters' to manifest. I'd like to know if any MPD patients have actually been cured by this type of therapy.
My personal opinion is that none of them have - I've read quite a lot of accounts by MPD patients and their therapists, and all the therapy seems to do is to develop more 'alters' in the patient. Which of course means the patient has to have more therapy.....

[tommyz]

Originally posted by Bodhi Dharma Zen
Humans have trouble admiting they are wrong, no matter if they are "skeptics" or "believers", I would say its a human condition, I would add that it is necessary for survival in complex societies.


Excellent observation. I find it all too common that when individuals aren't progressing as they would like in thier lives or just not exactly where they want to be that they come to the depressing (albeit subconscious) realization that their existance is slowly taking on a less and less signficant role in the lives of others. They immediately feel threatened and overwhelmed with all these feelings of inferiority and inadequacy --especially when someone of equal age, talent, educational background, training, or whatever the case might be excels them at what they do. Many individuals in this weakened mindset simply can't stand the thought of someone else doing better than they themselves. So quite naturally, the tendancy is to feel jealousy and unwarranted resentment, along with arrogance, egotism, and/or megalomania.

For example, instead of wishing them a genuine
"congratulations" along with a firm handshake, they simply resort to making arrogantly puerile comments like "Oh come on! That's nothing! I could do better!" Or insteading of realizing that they are wrong by saying something like "Nobody's perfect, and that includes me. I never really thought of it that way, and want to thank you for pointing out the errors in my thinking. I stand corrected" they have to incessantly argue with you INSISTING that they are "right."

While there's nothing wrong with feeling a hearty and healthy sense of pride for your legitimate and worthwhile accomplishments, along with the confidence and self esteem that comes with it --it's an entirely different ball of wax to feel that way about something that's illegitimate and fundamentally erroneous. Yes, we ALL want to be loved and/or respected by others; we ALL want to feel important and remembered, and feel that our contributions mean something to others in the long run. But to achieve those ends by dishonest, unethical, illegal and/or immoral means is a surefire way to mediocrity.

You mentioned that the inability to admit being wrong "is necessary for survival in complex societies." I thoroughly disagree. Look where it got individuals like Hitler or Saddam Hussein...

Try humility and kindness instead. The way to personal greatness is not so much in doing the "right" things...but more so in doing the kind things. :)

[Ashles]

Going back to Ashle's mention of MPD, I know there have been a number of MPD patients who have been cured by the simple expedient of stopping the therapy that encouraged their 'alters' to manifest. I'd like to know if any MPD patients have actually been cured by this type of therapy.
I assume Sopia8 knows this anyway, but for everyone else the quote in her sig comes from a 'sufferer' of MPD:
The MPD community suffered another serious attack on its credibility when Dr. Bennett Braun, the founder of the International Society for the Study of Disassociation, had his license suspended over allegations he used drugs and hypnosis to convince a patient she killed scores of people in SATANIC RITUALS. The patient claims that Braun convinced her that she had 300 personalities, among them a child molester, a high priestess of a satanic cult, and a cannibal. The patient told the Chicago Tribune: "I began to add a few things up and realized there was no way I could come from a little town in Iowa, be eating 2,000 people a year, and nobody said anything about it." The patient won $10.6 million in a lawsuit against Braun, Rush-Presbyterian-St. Luke's Hospital, and another therapist.
From Skepdic (http://www.skepdic.com/mpd.html) (and Dr Adequate posted a thread about this not long ago).

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by plindboe
People in the field always seem to rationalize their way out of being wrong.
Well, remember, many of them are charlatans. Of course they have their excuses. If failure is rare or debateable, and apparent success frequent, then these excuses will become normal and unexceptionable to the woowoo community as "the battery's gone flat" would sound to you or me as a reason why a gadget wasn't working. These excuses become normal in the woowoo community, and are equally up for grabs for other would-be psychics to use.

The result is that so many excuses have now been added, each of which can be invoked so arbitrarily, that it would be impossible to distinguish between a world where people had psychic powers and all the excuses aplied, and a world where no-one had any psychic powers.

(See also the case of the missing deity.

"But if God's all powerful, why doesn't etc?"
"Free will, blah blah blah..."
"Oh... but what about...?"
"Original sin, blah blah..."
"Oh... but what about...?"
"Mysterious ways, blah, blah, who are we to etc?"
"Oh... okay."
"So, little Johny, do you see now why the most important entity in the Universe is completely indistinguishable from nothing at all?"
"Yes. He is truely Almighty!")

The underlying principle, which I have named Occam's Haddock, may be stated as follows:

To any hypothesis, no matter how much it is in apparent conflict with reality, additional hypotheses may be added to save the appearances.

Of course, anyone who starts applying this principle can believe anything they like. I'm told this is fun: I just can't get the knack.

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Originally posted by tommyz
You mentioned that the inability to admit being wrong "is necessary for survival in complex societies." I thoroughly disagree. Look where it got individuals like Hitler or Saddam Hussein...

Try humility and kindness instead. The way to personal greatness is not so much in doing the "right" things...but more so in doing the kind things. :)

I agree in your description, and in that is kind of sad. I would say that strong liders have to be right, always, at any cost, and thats sad too.

But I still think that the world organization is a reflection of our animal instincts (that were necessary to survival).