Ga. Evolution Stickers Ordered Removed [Archive]

Psi Baba

13th January 2005, 11:36 AM

Thank God--er--well, you know what I mean. Glad to hear that. Thanks for pointing to that article. I found this statement by the judge to be especially sensible:
But the judge disagreed: "While evolution is subject to criticism, particularly with respect to the mechanism by which it occurred, the sticker misleads students regarding the significance and value of evolution in the scientific community."

LucyR

13th January 2005, 12:53 PM

"The stickers were added after more than 2,000 parents complained that the textbooks presented evolution as fact, without mentioning rival ideas about the beginnings of life, such as the biblical story of creation."

2000?! What is the root of this stupidity? Is the US education system really that bad? What makes these people so backward?

There is of course the usual misunderstanding of the word "theory".

merphie

13th January 2005, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by LucyR
"The stickers were added after more than 2,000 parents complained that the textbooks presented evolution as fact, without mentioning rival ideas about the beginnings of life, such as the biblical story of creation."

2000?! What is the root of this stupidity? Is the US education system really that bad? What makes these people so backward?

There is of course the usual misunderstanding of the word "theory".

Agreed. You can see a lot of this. They just removed another religious monument from a state building not to long ago.

Why do we need reason? The schools don't teach it. My kids just went through drug awareness week and they complained when I took a drink of soda while driving. (I was drinking and driving)

corplinx

13th January 2005, 02:18 PM

I don't believe this story at all. I've been told for the past 4 years that America has become a theocracy.

If you are telling me that people on this forum and elsewhere cherrypick the losses and ignore the wins, I will tell you take such foolish talk elsewhere.

Bah!

merphie

13th January 2005, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by corplinx
I don't believe this story at all. I've been told for the past 4 years that America has become a theocracy.

If you are telling me that people on this forum and elsewhere cherrypick the losses and ignore the wins, I will tell you take such foolish talk elsewhere.

Bah!

I don't believe we are a theocracy yet. However what my kids tell about their day at school I sometimes wonder.

cesium

13th January 2005, 07:32 PM

I definantly think that this is a case of horible ignorance. We do not yet have a concrete idea of the begennings and changes of life, but we do have many experiments and ideas that lean toward the theory of evolution.

My point: EVOLUTION IS A THEORY which has not yet been concretely proven or disproven

I feel that it is important to list alternative ideas, or at least confirm thier existance.

The fact that this is a stupid STICKER annoyes me further, it is simply there to keep people happy, and no one is forcing students to read it.

Further, although I do not have the exact text of the sticker, I dont think that simply confirming the existance of other theories is endorsement of religion, but listing individual theories (such as creationalism) may be.

Khonshu

13th January 2005, 07:45 PM

Then please tell me all the alternative SCIENTIFIC theories about the development of life on our planet besides evolution.

Creationism, in any form, is not scientific and should not be taught as such. Period. If an alternative scientific theory develops, then yes, by all means teach it. But do not dress religion in scientific-sounding terms and label it as science.

epepke

13th January 2005, 08:04 PM

Originally posted by cesium
My point: EVOLUTION IS A THEORY which has not yet been concretely proven or disproven

Yeah, your point.

Evolution is a fact. It happens.

The theory of evolution by natural selection is a theory. There is lots of evidence, but it isn't a fact.

Many people can't tell the difference, because they can barely read or think. Perhaps you are one.

KelvinG

13th January 2005, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by corplinx
I don't believe this story at all. I've been told for the past 4 years that America has become a theocracy.

If you are telling me that people on this forum and elsewhere cherrypick the losses and ignore the wins, I will tell you take such foolish talk elsewhere.

Bah!

If people were ignoring the wins, this thread never would have been started.

LucyR

13th January 2005, 08:14 PM

Originally posted by cesium

My point: EVOLUTION IS A THEORY which has not yet been concretely proven or disproven

As opposed to?

What's your understanding of the word "theory" when used in a scientific context?

H3LL

13th January 2005, 08:15 PM

This thread beat me to it:

More disclaimer stickers at this site and the court ruling.

Textbook Disclaimer Stickers:
Textbook Disclaimers (http://www.swarthmore.edu/NatSci/cpurrin1/textbookdisclaimers/)

BREAKING NEWS (at least on January 13, 2005): The infamous Cobb County sticker is officially unconstitutional. Read the decision (2.4 MB pdf) (http://www.swarthmore.edu/NatSci/cpurrin1/textbookdisclaimers/cooperdecision.pdf). Congratulations to the ACLU and NCSE, and thanks to the brave parents who brought the suit. But it's really too bad the Cobb County school district, the loser in the decision, now has to pay the rather large legal fees, sucking valuable assets away from school budgets. To cover the expected revenue shortfall, and to avoid tax increases in Cobb County, perhaps Marjorie Rogers (the Creationist who started the whole mess) can extract donations from the 2,300 supporters who signed her original petition that objected to evolution instruction. Just an idea.

Victory Sticker (A 'must have'):

<center>
http://www.swarthmore.edu/NatSci/cpurrin1/textbookdisclaimers/victorysticker.jpg </center>

PDF version of the court ruling:

Cooper Decision (http://www.swarthmore.edu/NatSci/cpurrin1/textbookdisclaimers/cooperdecision.pdf)

Edited to add link

H3LL

13th January 2005, 08:33 PM

Evolution n.

The process by which supporters of ID and/or creationism learn the scientific meaning or the word theory, get their @ss kicked in court, eat humble pie and learn that their pet myths are are not appreciated by people with a brain and the ability to read both the constitution and books other than the buy-bull.

Psi Baba

14th January 2005, 07:05 AM

Originally posted by H3LL
Evolution n.

The process by which supporters of ID and/or creationism learn the scientific meaning or the word theory, get their @ss kicked in court, eat humble pie and learn that their pet myths are are not appreciated by people with a brain and the ability to read both the constitution and books other than the buy-bull.
:clap: :clap: :clap:

Cleon

14th January 2005, 07:16 AM

Whew.

It was this case that spawned my theory that every time Georgia is in the national news, it's always for something stupid.

(My corollary to this was that Georgia should adopt the state motto: "Georgia—at least we're not Alabama!")

TragicMonkey

14th January 2005, 07:19 AM

Originally posted by Cleon
Whew.

It was this case that spawned my theory that every time Georgia is in the national news, it's always for something stupid.

Not true, what about the Hogzilla Festival? Oh, wait, never mind.

Questioninggeller

14th January 2005, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by epepke
Yeah, your point.

Evolution is a fact. It happens.

The theory of evolution by natural selection is a theory. There is lots of evidence, but it isn't a fact.

Many people can't tell the difference, because they can barely read or think. Perhaps you are one.

Well stated.

Daylight

14th January 2005, 07:38 PM

If you are one of the teachers that gets laid off, could you sue the Georgia chapter of the Christian Coalition? They caused the mess, shouldn't they he held accountable?

merphie

14th January 2005, 09:28 PM

Originally posted by cesium
I definantly think that this is a case of horible ignorance. We do not yet have a concrete idea of the begennings and changes of life, but we do have many experiments and ideas that lean toward the theory of evolution.

My point: EVOLUTION IS A THEORY which has not yet been concretely proven or disproven

I feel that it is important to list alternative ideas, or at least confirm thier existance.

The fact that this is a stupid STICKER annoyes me further, it is simply there to keep people happy, and no one is forcing students to read it.

Further, although I do not have the exact text of the sticker, I dont think that simply confirming the existance of other theories is endorsement of religion, but listing individual theories (such as creationalism) may be.

Your point is wrong. The theory of evolution is no different than the Atomic Theory. The theory of gravity. Are these to be questioned? We know the atomic theory works quite well.

Alternative ideas are great, but you should have fact to support them. Religion has very little facts. 'creationalism' is not a theory. It's religion.

The sticker is indeed annoying, but you have to look at things from the perspective of a child. You and I may ignore it or even laugh. A child may not.

Crossbow

15th January 2005, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by merphie
Your point is wrong. The theory of evolution is no different than the Atomic Theory. The theory of gravity. Are these to be questioned? We know the atomic theory works quite well.

Alternative ideas are great, but you should have fact to support them. Religion has very little facts. 'creationalism' is not a theory. It's religion.

The sticker is indeed annoying, but you have to look at things from the perspective of a child. You and I may ignore it or even laugh. A child may not.

Well said merphie!

I too have often wondered why some people get so bent out of shape about the Theory of Evolution, but seem to have no qualms about:

Theory of Relativity,
Theory of Gravity,
Four Color Theory,
Sum of Consecutive Odd Primes always equals an Even Number Theory,
and so on.

KelvinG

15th January 2005, 01:57 PM

LucyR

15th January 2005, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by KelvinG
Actually, I have serious issues with the "Sum of Consecutive Odd Primes equals an Even Number" theory.
I'd get into the details of it, but I fear I won't be able to control my anger. Let's just say I'm pushing for warning stickers on math textbooks.

Oh yeah? So what's your "theory" you mouth-breathing Luddite?

KelvinG

15th January 2005, 02:06 PM

Originally posted by LucyR
Oh yeah? So what's your "theory" you mouth-breathing Luddite?

Well, as long as you don't tell anyone, my theory is " The Sum of Consecutive Odd Primes does not always equals an Even Number.

LucyR

15th January 2005, 02:10 PM

I was going to say something clever about the sum of 2 and 3, but Crossbow was too smart for that. He did say "odd" primes. Oh well.

KelvinG

15th January 2005, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by LucyR
I was going to say something clever about the sum of 2 and 3, but Crossbow was too smart for that. He did say "odd" primes. Oh well.

OK, I'm going to level with you. I'm not even sure what the hell a prime number is without looking it up.
That said, I'm bailing out of this mock debate.:D

Crossbow

15th January 2005, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by LucyR
I was going to say something clever about the sum of 2 and 3, but Crossbow was too smart for that. He did say "odd" primes. Oh well.

Thanks man!

:)

neutrino_cannon

15th January 2005, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by LucyR
"The stickers were added after more than 2,000 parents complained that the textbooks presented evolution as fact, without mentioning rival ideas about the beginnings of life, such as the biblical story of creation."

2000?! What is the root of this stupidity? Is the US education system really that bad? What makes these people so backward?

There is of course the usual misunderstanding of the word "theory".

I would read this first:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scopes_trial

And then think about the most literal possible meaning of the phrase:

"Literal interpretation of the book of Genesis"

If you laugh at the stupid Americans in that goofy accent you folks have got, I really wouldn't blame you.

LucyR

15th January 2005, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by neutrino_cannon

If you laugh at the stupid Americans in that goofy accent you folks have got, I really wouldn't blame you.

I wrote it badly. I didn't mean Americans in general, just the idiots who complained. Some Americans in my experience are quite bright. I've felt rather stupid in their company, to tell the truth.

merphie

15th January 2005, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by Crossbow
Well said merphie!

I too have often wondered why some people get so bent out of shape about the Theory of Evolution, but seem to have no qualms about:

Theory of Relativity,
Theory of Gravity,
Four Color Theory,
Sum of Consecutive Odd Primes always equals an Even Number Theory,
and so on.

I just hate it when people trivialize science in such a way. To compare science to religion in any way is a slape in the face to scientist.

I don't like religion but I don't understand why the religious folks are so dead set against it? Where is 1inChrist when you need him? (Did I say need?)

I must admit I had once thought the way cesium expressed. It hit me one night watching a show on WWII. They said the "Atomic Theory" made the bomb possible.

Randi has shown me the light. Maybe we should all start a church of Randi? The tax shelter would be great!

Daylight

16th January 2005, 07:31 PM

Anyone know if the School will actually have to pay the legal fees? Don't they have some type of insurace to protect them?

Cleon

16th January 2005, 07:52 PM

Originally posted by Daylight
Anyone know if the School will actually have to pay the legal fees? Don't they have some type of insurace to protect them?

I don't think so--"Stupidity Insurance" just hasn't caught on that well.

Seriously, I think schools' insurance usually handles cases of liability (some kid conks their head, that sort of thing), but not educational/political issues like this one.

LucyR

16th January 2005, 08:20 PM

From the article:

"The school board issued a statement saying members are disappointed by the ruling and are meeting with lawyers to decide whether to appeal. The Cobb school system has 30 days to appeal."

Anybody have any thoughts on whether such an appeal would be successful? I assume they'd do it just to get more attention, and wouldn't have any real chance.

webfusion

16th January 2005, 08:39 PM

Merphie, you mentioned "theory of relativity" and asked why people don't have qualms about it ---

My Great-Aunt invented a term T.C.MITS* and wrote several books describing how ordinary people don't even think twice about relativity. It just IS >>>> and she described in plain English what it all means.

Even more true today than it was when Lillian Lieber (Professor of Mathematics LIU) explained the complex ideas in simple-to-understand terms. The plain language used was recognized as "the Lillian Lieber standard" in the circles of mathematicians (Albert Einstein thanked her for writing the work). Her books are now out of print, BTW.

=============================

*The Common Man In The Street, 1942 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393009068/qid=1047995944/sr=1-8/ref=sr_1_8/104-9214715-9315940?v=glance&s=books)

merphie

16th January 2005, 09:25 PM

Originally posted by webfusion
Merphie, you mentioned "theory of relativity" and asked why people don't have qualms about it ---

My Great-Aunt invented a term T.C.MITS* and wrote several books describing how ordinary people don't even think twice about relativity. It just IS >>>> and she described in plain English what it all means.

Even more true today than it was when Lillian Lieber (Professor of Mathematics LIU) explained the complex ideas in simple-to-understand terms. The plain language used was recognized as "the Lillian Lieber standard" in the circles of mathematicians (Albert Einstein thanked her for writing the work). Her books are now out of print, BTW.

I guess it just shows people will defend their belief no matter what evidence. If the evidence is against their belief it will be ignored or changed to fit their purpose.

TragicMonkey

18th January 2005, 05:17 AM

Originally posted by merphie
I guess it just shows people will defend their belief no matter what evidence. If the evidence is against their belief it will be ignored or changed to fit their purpose.

And if you're good at this, you can get a cabinet position.

insomneac

18th January 2005, 08:37 AM

Silicon

18th January 2005, 02:22 PM

This just in:

Ga. Schools to Appeal Evolution Ruling

MARIETTA, Ga. - Members of a suburban district's school board plan to challenge a federal judge's order to remove stickers in science textbooks that call evolution "a theory, not a fact."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=519&e=4&u=/ap/20050118/ap_on_re_us/evolution_stickers

hgc

18th January 2005, 02:44 PM

The rational humans who run in the schoolboard elections against these clowns (who voted to appeal) should put the cost of this litigation, in dollars and cents, on their campaign signs.

Cleon

18th January 2005, 03:25 PM

Originally posted by hgc
The rational humans who run in the schoolboard elections against these clowns (who voted to appeal) should put the cost of this litigation, in dollars and cents, on their campaign signs.

Dude, this is Cobb County. These school board idiots can run saying they Waged A Holy Crusade Against the Evilutionist Conspiracy, and they'll get more votes.

Ah, Georgia. At least we're not Alabama.