Oxygen again - this time "Oxygen Bars"

[RichardR]

Very late Sunday morning, I was sitting in someone’s apartment talking to a girl who had just finished her night job shift. The job – selling oxygen at a local night club.

I thought oxygen was free with the air we breathe, part of the deal we get for living on planet Earth. But Californians need more, as it’s apparently it’s all the rage now in CA. One of the quoted benefits from this, is that it sobers you up after a night of booze. A can of O2 and you’re ready to power up the Toyota and head back to the East Bay.

The explanation given was that the O2 combines with the “OH” (which is alcohol), in some way. (I’m a little hazy on the details. It was very late.) My high school chemistry is a few years behind me, but this site (http://www.thewhiskystore.de/experts/starch.htm) gives the basic chemical formula for alcohol as (C6H12O6), although I’m not sure if that includes six Tequila slammers.

A google search reveals the usual claims and testimonials from the people selling the stuff. But I was able to find this fda article: (http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2002/602_air.html)

Oxygen fans tout the benefits of oxygen as reducing stress, increasing energy and alertness, lessening the effects of hangovers, headaches, and sinus problems, and generally relaxing the body. But there are no long-term, well-controlled scientific studies that support these claims for oxygen in healthy people. And people with healthy lungs don't need additional oxygen, says Mary Purucker, M.D., Ph.D., a pulmonary specialist in CDER. "We've evolved for millions of years in an atmosphere of about 21 percent oxygen."

People with certain medical conditions are another matter. Some need supplemental oxygen, but should not go to oxygen bars, says Purucker. People with some types of heart disease, asthma, congestive heart failure, pulmonary hypertension, and chronic obstructive pulmonary diseases, such as emphysema, need to have their medical oxygen regulated carefully to oxygenate their blood properly, says Purucker. "If they inhale too much oxygen, they can stop breathing."

People who have received bleomycin, a chemotherapy used to treat some types of cancer, are in danger if they are exposed to high levels of oxygen for too long, adds Purucker. "People think oxygen is good, but more is not necessarily better.”
I guess it’s likely a placebo, although I’m concerned it’s being marketed (in this one bar) as a way of sobering up before driving. Does anyone know the chemistry relating to this idea?

[Dymanic]

The operative phrase is:
there are no long-term, well-controlled scientific studies that support these claims for oxygen in healthy people.

And this, as far as I have been able to ascertain, is essentially urban myth:
People with certain medical conditions are another matter. Some need supplemental oxygen, but should not go to oxygen bars, says Purucker. People with some types of heart disease, asthma, congestive heart failure, pulmonary hypertension, and chronic obstructive pulmonary diseases, such as emphysema, need to have their medical oxygen regulated carefully to oxygenate their blood properly, says Purucker. "If they inhale too much oxygen, they can stop breathing."

[Skeptoid]

The oxygenation of blood in healthy people at rest is near 100% from breathing air alone, so that almost all of any additional oxygen is totally wasted (never absorbed by the bloodstream). Alcohol is oxidized in the liver (not in the bloodstream) at a fairly constant rate. This article on Alcohol Metabolism (http://www.medicouncilalcol.demon.co.uk/handbook/hb_meta.htm) is quite informative.



Edited for clarity.

[OdderMensch]

Heh, I went to an O2 'bar' once. 'Dern thing was in a health store! I didn't notice any effect.

but this does remind me of a question I asked edthedoc once ;)

[BillyJoe]

Originally posted by OdderMensch
....but this does remind me of a question I asked edthedoc once ;) Yeah, I don't think he has recovered from that "can of worms" knock out punch. Sad really :(

[bjornart]

Originally posted by Skeptoid
The oxygenation of blood in healthy people at rest is near 100% from breathing air alone, so that almost all of any additional oxygen is totally wasted (never absorbed by the bloodstream). Alcohol is oxidized in the liver (not in the bloodstream) at a fairly constant rate. This article on Alcohol Metabolism (http://www.medicouncilalcol.demon.co.uk/handbook/hb_meta.htm) is quite informative.



Edited for clarity.


And if you look up the chemical processes you'll see that O2 isn't involved.

Also RichardR read the information on the page he linked to wrong, it correctly names C6H12O6 glucose. Ethanol is C2H6O. (Or C2H5OH if you want to emphasise the OH)

[RichardR]

Originally posted by bjornart


And if you look up the chemical processes you'll see that O2 isn't involved.

Also RichardR read the information on the page he linked to wrong, it correctly names C6H12O6 glucose. Ethanol is C2H6O. (Or C2H5OH if you want to emphasise the OH) You are right. My apologies.

[RichardR]

Originally posted by Skeptoid
The oxygenation of blood in healthy people at rest is near 100% from breathing air alone, Right.

I just found THIS: (http://www.health.harvard.edu/fhg/diagnostics/oxygen/oxygenWhat.shtml)

“Normally, when red blood cells pass through the lungs,95-100% of them are loaded or "saturated" with oxygen to carry. If you have lung disease or other types of medical conditions, fewer of your red blood cells will be carrying their usual load of oxygen and your oxygen "saturation" will be lower than 95%.”

[Soapy Sam]

Wouldn't an oxygen "bar" have to be fairly cold? (minus 212 deg. C or thereabouts?)
Reminds me of the bar on the moon. Closed due to lack of atmosphere.

[fishbob]

High oxygen concentrations increases the risk of fire. It can make things burn that ordinarily will not burn.

[OdderMensch]

Well, this seems as good a place as any to restate and rephrase the question. We breath in order to intake oxygen correct? When we take air into our lungs it is sent into the 'airsacs' where some not so mystical transfer takes place, and the oxygen goes into our blood stream.

I have walked around in thin atmosphere enough to know the difference air pressure makes. I walked around a town as happy as a clam, it wasen't till I got back to the hotel that I felt ill. And I study Chinese kung fu that includes some deep breathing exercises, and I do feel 'refreshed and invigorated' after completeing them.

My question to edthedoc was 'what is the main limiting factor in O2 uptake?' Why is a deep breath more refreshing than a shallow one? I know it is possible to 'hyperventilate' breath so fast that you cannot get enogh oxygen from the air, But could someone breath 'faster' in a higher oxygen enviroment? on another note, how long does it take for a healty set of lungs to drain the oxygen from a deep breath?

[Skeptoid]

My guess is that there is much more oxygen in fully oxygenated blood than there is in any given breath of air and that it would not take long at all for oxygen depleted blood to take up the small amount of oxygen in a single breath.

[BillyJoe]

Well Eddy has deserted you, but let's see if I can help....

Originally posted by OdderMensch
We breath in order to intake oxygen correct?Partly. We also breathe in order to expel carbon dioxide.

Originally posted by OdderMensch
When we take air into our lungs it is sent into the 'airsacs' where some not so mystical transfer takes place, and the oxygen goes into our blood stream. Yes, they're called "alveoli" (singular: "alveolus")

Originally posted by OdderMensch
I have walked around in thin atmosphere enough to know the difference air pressure makes. I walked around a town as happy as a clam, it wasen't till I got back to the hotel that I felt ill. I guess the atmospheric pressure helps the oxygen get through the alveolar and capillary walls into the blood stream. Reduced pressure results in lower oxygen concentration in the blood which, in turn causes the lightheadedness and headaches.

Originally posted by OdderMensch
And I study Chinese kung fu that includes some deep breathing exercises, and I do feel 'refreshed and invigorated' after completeing them. I'm not sure whether this effect is physiological or psychosomatic or both. My guess is that it is largely psychosomatic.

Originally posted by OdderMensch
My question to edthedoc was 'what is the main limiting factor in O2 uptake?' This surely must depend on the circumstances.....
If you are in an enclosed container, the limiting factor is the diminishing oxygen concentration.
If you are smoker with gradually worsening emphysema, it would be the diminishing number of alveoli in the lungs.
If you are poisoning yourself with carbon monoxide from your car exhaust, it would be the diminishing amount of haemoglobin.

Originally posted by OdderMensch
Why is a deep breath more refreshing than a shallow one?Breathing shallow and slow reduces the concentration of oxygen and increases the concentration of carbon dioxide in the lungs.
Breathing shallow and fast (as in hyperventilating during a panic attack) mainly blows off cardon dioxide. The CO2 in the blood stream decreases leading to symptoms of lightheadedness, pins and needles in the finger tips and around the mouth and a senstion that you are not getting enough oxygen which causes you to hyperventilate even faster.
Breathing deep and slow produces a feeling of relaxation. Just before you go in to your next interview take a deep breath and breathe out slowly.
Breathing deep and fast is just exhausting. :cool:

Originally posted by OdderMensch
I know it is possible to 'hyperventilate' breath so fast that you cannot get enogh oxygen from the air.....This is not correct (see above).

Originally posted by OdderMensch
.....but could someone breath 'faster' in a higher oxygen enviroment? You can breathe faster in any environment if you want to. ;)
You could probably breathe in and out three or four times per second if you tried hard enough and it wouldn't depend on the oxygen concentration.

Originally posted by OdderMensch
....on another note, how long does it take for a healty set of lungs to drain the oxygen from a deep breath? You couldn't do it.
If you were to attempt to hold your breath untill all the oxygen had been extracted from your lungs, you would pass out well before the last molecule was absorbed.


How'd I go Eddy?

[OdderMensch]

Thanks for the info billyjoe. I'd have responded sooner, but I wasn't myself yesterday ;)


a few questions, :cool:


You couldn't do it. If you were to attempt to hold your breath untill all the oxygen had been extracted from your lungs, you would pass out well before the last molecule was absorbed.


And that would that be due to CO2 buildup correct?

Breathing shallow and slow reduces the concentration of oxygen and increases the concentration of carbon dioxide in the lungs.

and too much CO2 in the lungs and the O2 cant get into the blood stream, causeing eventual death?

Breathing shallow and fast (as in hyperventilating during a panic attack) mainly blows off cardon dioxide. The CO2 in the blood stream decreases leading to symptoms of lightheadedness, pins and needles in the finger tips and around the mouth and a senstion that you are not getting enough oxygen which causes you to hyperventilate even faster.

Ok here is where you lose me a bit. I've heard of CO2 posioning before, it's why they needed the special filter in Apollo 13, but you're saying its also a problem to have to little CO2 in the blood. I'd guess this means CO2 leaves the blood stream in the lungs at a semi constant rate, would I be correct?

This surely must depend on the circumstances.....

Well I don't smoke tabacco, and I avoid exaust whenever I can, so i'm ok there. :)

I'm not sure whether this effect is physiological or psychosomatic or both. My guess is that it is largely psychosomatic

I might be, but I know from experiance that I don't normally breath 'fully' each time, and i imagine it's got to help, I've only got so many beaths left, why waste them? ;)

Partly. We also breathe in order to expel carbon dioxide.

Well then here's a daft question, is either side of the equation more important?

[BillyJoe]

Originally posted by OdderMensch
[And that would that be due to CO2 buildup correct?No. An ever diminishing supply of oxygen.

Originally posted by OdderMensch
....and too much CO2 in the lungs and the O2 cant get into the blood stream, causeing eventual death? Are you saying that the CO2 prevents the O2 from getting into the blood stream? This news to me.

Originally posted by OdderMensch
Ok here is where you lose me a bit. I've heard of CO2 posioning before, it's why they needed the special filter in Apollo 13.... As the concentration of CO2 in the air increases, the concentration of O2 necessarily decreases which is one reason why the CO2 must be extracted. The other reason is that is causes (respiratory) acidosis in the blood stream.

CO2 + H2O = HCO3- + H+

Originally posted by OdderMensch
.....but you're saying its also a problem to have to little CO2 in the blood? Yes. Too much CO2 in the lungs causes respiratory acidosis and too little CO2 causes respiratory alkalosis.

Originally posted by OdderMensch
I'd guess this means CO2 leaves the blood stream in the lungs at a semi constant rate, would I be correct?In the normal situation, yes.
But hyperventilating causes CO2 to be blown off reducing the concentration of CO2 in the lungs which in turn results in increased rate of movement of CO2 from the blood stream into the lungs.
The reverse occurs in hypoventilation

Originally posted by OdderMensch
don't normally breath 'fully' each time......You hardly ever breathe "fully".
Perhaps only when you're doing the hundred metre dash or hyperventilating yourself into a right old panic attack.

Originally posted by OdderMensch
Well then here's a daft question, is either side of the equation more important[getting O2 in or getting CO2 out]?The effects of O2 lack are, I think, of much greater import than the effects of CO2 excess. At least, they are more immediate.

[Soapy Sam]

I remember reading Arthur C. Clarke's "Earthlight" about 1966. In it, the crew of a crippled spacecraft has to cross open vacuum, without space suits, to reach safety. The ship's medic has them do deep breathing, completely exhaling between breaths, then again exhaling to empty the lungs, before counting to measure how long they can go without breathing . (They are on a near pure O2 atmosphere). By saturating the haemoglobin to maximum carrying capacity and emptying the lungs to avoid preesure damage, he gets most of them across the short gap with a few severe sunburns and only one loss.

I recall trying the exercise (with normal air) and finding I could push my time for holding my breath from a norm of about 40 seconds to over ninety.

I was a lot younger then.

[fishbob]

I wonder about the anti-oxidant properties of many products that are advertised as health benefits. How compatible is this so-called health benefit with over-oxidation of the respiratory system?

[corplinx]

There is an olde divemaster trick. If you get hammered the night before, then on the first dive of the day (also the deepest dive) take a tank of enriched air (32-34 percent O2 versus normal air) and when the partial pressure of of the oxygen gets high at depth its supposed to cure your hangover. Somewhere in the 80-100ft range you are supposed to feel the change.

[OdderMensch]

Originally posted by BillyJoe
No. An ever diminishing supply of oxygen.

Are you saying that the CO2 prevents the O2 from getting into the blood stream? This news to me.

I don't know, I meant that if your blood droped all its CO2 into your lungs, and took most of the O2 out, you stop getting O2. As you stated above.


As the concentration of CO2 in the air increases, the concentration of O2 necessarily decreases which is one reason why the CO2 must be extracted. The other reason is that is causes (respiratory) acidosis in the blood stream.

CO2 + H2O = HCO3- + H+

Yes. Too much CO2 in the lungs causes respiratory acidosis and too little CO2 causes respiratory alkalosis.


Ah thank you, I'll look into those two conditions, since I havent the slightest idea right now ;)


In the normal situation, yes.
But hyperventilating causes CO2 to be blown off reducing the concentration of CO2 in the lungs which in turn results in increased rate of movement of CO2 from the blood stream into the lungs.
The reverse occurs in hypoventilation

You hardly ever breathe "fully".
Perhaps only when you're doing the hundred metre dash or hyperventilating yourself into a right old panic attack.


I think I breathe, more fully, when I do qigong. It really helps to breathe if you fight.


The effects of O2 lack are, I think, of much greater import than the effects of CO2 excess. At least, they are more immediate.

Thank you very much Billyjoe, you know, for a little mouse holding a pencil, you know a lot about this stuff.

[BillyJoe]

Originally posted by OdderMensch
Thank you very much Billyjoe, you know, for a little mouse holding a pencil, you know a lot about this stuff. Until someone more knowledgeable comes along and whips my posts to shreads......

[Acrimonious]

Breathing is basically controlled by 3 reflexes.

1) The reflex that makes you exhale when your lungs are full.
2) The reflex that makes you inhale when they are empty.
3) The reflex that makes you exhale when your lungs contain too much CO2.

The first 2 are to prevent you from blowing up or collapsing your lungs.

The third is a little weird... your body does not actually ever check to see if the air you're breathing contains oxygen. Oxygen is so plentiful, your body just assumes it's always going to have enough as long as it keeps breathing.

This causes problems in situations with carbon monoxide, inert gasses, and heavy gasses. Your body really doesn't care if it's getting oxygen... only that your CO2 level isn't too high. You will go on breathing gases with 0% oxygen (with minor symptoms like headache and fatigue) until you pass out and eventually die.

This site (http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/coftsht.html) details Carbon Monoxide poisoning quite well. Note that none of the symptoms include gasping for air or choking.



This site (http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/chemicals/cryogenic/cryogen1.html) explains the hazards of cryogenic liquids. This is a problem for people who work with chemical tank trucks and train cars, because even a small amount of these liquids will evaporate into large volumes of gas that displace breathable air:


Asphyxiation Hazard

When cryogenic liquids form a gas, the gas is very cold and usually heavier than air. This cold, heavy gas does not disperse very well and can accumulate near the floor. Even if the gas is non-toxic, it displaces air. When there is not enough air or oxygen, asphyxiation and death can occur. Oxygen deficiency is a serious hazard in enclosed or confined spaces.

Small amounts of liquid can evaporate into very large volumes of gas. For example, one litre of liquid nitrogen vapourizes to 695 litres of nitrogen gas when warmed to room temperature (21°C).

[Dymanic]

Breathing is basically controlled by 3 reflexes.

1) The reflex that makes you exhale when your lungs are full.
2) The reflex that makes you inhale when they are empty.
3) The reflex that makes you exhale when your lungs contain too much CO2.

The first 2 are to prevent you from blowing up or collapsing your lungs.

The third is a little weird... your body does not actually ever check to see if the air you're breathing contains oxygen. Oxygen is so plentiful, your body just assumes it's always going to have enough as long as it keeps breathing.
I don't think it's actually the amount of O2 or CO2 in the lungs that counts--how exactly would that information be available to the reflex?--it's what's in the bloodstream that counts. In a person with healthy lungs, the amount of CO2 is the primary indicator of when it's time to breathe--this is called 'CO2 drive'. Low oxygen can also trigger breathing, but it's just sort of a backup. In persons with damaged lungs, the amount of CO2 is not reliable as an indicator, as there is pretty much always a lot of CO2 present--in this case, the low O2 becomes the primary indicator (this is called 'hypoxic drive').

Whether the lungs are faced with excess CO2 or insufficient O2, taking a breath is their only option--they (reasonably) assume that the air will contain oxygen.

[BillyJoe]

Originally posted by Dymanic
In a person with healthy lungs, the amount of CO2 is the primary indicator of when it's time to breathe--this is called 'CO2 drive'. Low oxygen can also trigger breathing, but it's just sort of a backup. In persons with damaged lungs, the amount of CO2 is not reliable as an indicator, as there is pretty much always a lot of CO2 present--in this case, the low O2 becomes the primary indicator (this is called 'hypoxic drive'). Yes, it's all coming back - the "high CO2 drive" of the normal lung and the "low O2 drive" of the emphysematous lung.....
If a doctor gives a hospitalized emphysematous patient with an "low O2 drive" too much oxygen, he can actually stop breathing. Too much oxygen can actually kill him. :(

Thanks for your input A and D.

[Dymanic]

Yes, it's all coming back - the "high CO2 drive" of the normal lung and the "low O2 drive" of the emphysematous lung.....
If a doctor gives a hospitalized emphysematous patient with an "low O2 drive" too much oxygen, he can actually stop breathing. Too much oxygen can actually kill him.
So goes the conventional wisdom, taught to countless health care professionals.

What I have come up with after some digging, is that this risk has been greatly overstated, especially if the patient is conscious. I'm always looking for more input on this.

The best evidence I can offer is circumstantial:
Manufacturers of home oxygen generators have not found it necessary to equip the units with governors to insure that 'dangerously' high levels of oxygen are not administered, either through accident (remember that most of these patients are elderly) or deliberate intent (if excess O2 is potentially lethal, it seems like it would offer an attractive method of either suicide or euthanasia). Yet, apparently none of the manufacturers has been the target of a wrongful death lawsuit.

[LucyR]

Originally posted by BillyJoe
Breathing shallow and fast (as in hyperventilating during a panic attack) mainly blows off cardon dioxide. The CO2 in the blood stream decreases leading to symptoms of lightheadedness, pins and needles in the finger tips and around the mouth and a senstion that you are not getting enough oxygen which causes you to hyperventilate even faster.

I know very little about this but I believe that CO2 is necessary for maintaining the optimum blood pH for production of oxy-hemoglobin. So as you say, blowing off too much CO2 will lead to oxygen starvation.

Is this pigswill?

[BillyJoe]

Originally posted by LucyR
I know very little about this but I believe that CO2 is necessary for maintaining the optimum blood pH for production of oxy-hemoglobin. So as you say, blowing off too much CO2 will lead to oxygen starvation.An acidic environment, as is found in metabolising tissues, causes a right shift in the oxyhaemoglobin dissociation curve. This means that the haemoglobin gives up its oxygen more easily - which is what we want because metabolising tissues require oxygen.

As we've said, hyperventilation blows off CO₂.
Looking at the following equation....

CO₂ + H₂O = H⁺ + HCO₃^-

When the CO₂ concentration is reduced the H⁺ and HCO₃^- combine to produce CO₂ and H₂O thereby producing a more alkaline environment. This causes a left shift in the oxyhaemoglobin dissociation curve. This means that the haemoglobin gives up its oxygen less easily resulting , as you say, in "oxygen starvation" of the tissues.

regards,
BillyJoe
(Still welcoming any corrections by those more knowledgeable)

[Rose]

Just a quick note on what Corelinx and BillyJoe posted.

I wasn't aware of diver's tricks, but in Fire/EMS, at least locally, the cure for a hangover is to come into the station and suck on some oxygen via non rebreather mask for a few minutes. From ancedotal stories, it seems to work well enough, though it may take a half hour or so to ween off from the oxygen.

As far as COPDers/emphesema patients go, the figure out of one of my text books is 1 in 3 COPDers relying on hypoxic drive are suseptibal to respiratory arrest due to oxyygination. In 13 years I've had exactly one patient in whom I observed this phenomena. It was quite an interesting transport. As soon as I gave her enough O2 to oxgyenate her, her respiratory rate dropped down drastically. Cutting back on the O2 increased respiratory rate but made her oxygen sats drop into the 70% range. It made for an interesting and nerve wracking transport.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Rose
Just a quick note on what Corplinx and BillyJoe posted.


I didn't claim it was true, just that I had heard it. The only thing I know for sure is not to dive too deep after eating fried fish covered in tabasco sauce. If you reflux at 60 feet, there is no quick way up to wash your mouth out.