UNVERIFIABLE CLAIMS...REJECTED

[KRAMER]

To further your dining and dancing pleasures, here is a new thread specifically for claims that arrive via email as inquiries.

This thread is for claims that cannot possibly be verified, and were henceforth REJECTED prior to submission of an application.

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#1...

Dear Randi,
I am living in Hawaii and I am a Tibetan Lama. My older brother is a reincarnated Tibetan Trulku and he is an omnitient enlightened being. He recognized many little babies and even adults who were great lamas in their previous lives. I heard this through my other brother who lives in Switzerland, very recently my Trulku brother gave a prediction letter for a monastery stating that their lama is going be reborn in near future and into particular family and all the details about the baby. I think that baby is not being born yet, so you can check it out if it is true not! I can findout about where is the baby is being reborn and how
to get there. So please write me. With Aloha, Lama Wangchuk


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You know, at some point, I'm fully expecting to be accused of making this stuff up.

Sadly, I'm saving all the emails, so I can provide proof of their authenticity.

Let's face it, folks. You just CAN'T make this stuff up.

[KRAMER]

We sent this fellow a reply stating that this was not a verifiable claim, and got this back within minutes:

============================================

Dear James Randi, I think this is the most verifiable and amazing paranormal claims you could ever find. May be my english is not precise enough to give you the clear message. My brother gave a predection letter for another buddhist master who died few years ago and who is not even born yet. Almost all reincarnated babies are recognised way after they are being born but very recently my brother gave a prediction for a lama's future reincarnation. This kind of event took place only less than a dozen in past 2575 years of Buddhist history so please give me a call and I like to tell you more details.
With Aloha, Lama Wangchuk

[Beleth]

What exactly is this guy predicting?

Sounds to me that it is one of two things, one being a subset of the other.

1) That a specific person is going to die at or around a certain time and also that a certain family will have a child, again at or around a certain time.

2) All of #1 plus that the baby will be the reincarnation of the specific dead person.

As far as #1 goes, there is nothing very paranormal about either of those events, even though they are predicted, and especially if the people involved (the old person and the family) know about the prediction.

#2 would be paranormal if there were some way to prove that the child had the same soul in it as the dead guy, and the only way I can think of to do that would be to double-blindly expose the baby to 1,001,000 different things, only 2 of which had any meaning to the dead guy.

[Lisa Simpson]

Originally posted by Beleth

#2 would be paranormal if there were some way to prove that the child had the same soul in it as the dead guy, and the only way I can think of to do that would be to double-blindly expose the baby to 1,001,000 different things, only 2 of which had any meaning to the dead guy.

That's pretty much the deal clincher on how the current Dalai Lama (http://www.dalailama.com/html/young_dl.html) was found.

This time they brought with them a number of things that had belonged to the Thirteenth Dalai Lama, together with several similar items that did not. In every case, the infant correctly identified those belonging to the Thirteenth Dalai Lama saying, “It’s mine. It’s mine.� This more or less convinced the search party that they had found the new incarnation. It was not long before the boy from Taktser was acknowledged to be the new Dalai Lama.

[Beleth]

Yeah, I know. But it wasn't a double-blind test. It sounds like the people presenting the items were the same people who knew which items belonged to the previous DL. And they don't mention exactly how many items were involved.

Thanks for that link, by the way!

[Lisa Simpson]

Oh, of course it wasn't double blind. And they had probably come close to making up their minds before the "test" even started. There were also visions involved that led them to the village in the first place.

I wonder how this guy thinks his claim can be verified.

[IXP]

My older brother is a reincarnated Tibetan Trulku and he is an omnitient enlightened being.


I agree that the claim about predicting the birth of a reincarnated lama is not testable.

However, the claim of omniscience (assuming that is what he meant by "omnitient") is testable.

Simply ask for the solution of superstring theory that matches the universe we live in. The Nobel prize you could earn would replenish the million you would have to give away!

IXP

[Ashles]

However, the claim of omniscience (assuming that is what he meant by "omnitient") is testable.

Simply ask for the solution of superstring theory that matches the universe we live in. The Nobel prize you could earn would replenish the million you would have to give away!


Or that elusive 42nd Mersenne Prime. Much simpler.

Or where Osama is.

Or next weeks lottery numbers.

Or what "omnitient" means.

[jimmygun]

I've said it before and I'll say it again...Why is it that people who claim to be able to converse with the spiritual world have such a struggle communicating to the real world?

[KRAMER]

Randi just got this email, which suggests that he's been in contact with this fellow before...
=======================================

Sorry for answering now, more than six years after your repetitious reminder-answer to my original question.

The proof of reincarnation is unfortunately not independent of theoretical considerations, but time will show more and more directly that the number of human souls is only around 7 billion. There could however be other possibilities of winning the prize.

It is obvious that probabilistic uphill effects such as ESP or telepathy are easily destroyed by a person like you, because the destruction is only a probabilistic downhill effect. You unconsciously use parapsychological effects in order to manipulate the happenings in your environment so that they can fit in your IMO prejudiced world view.

There are however (at least) two cases where the destruction
itself of telepathic effects constitutes a probabilistic
uphill effect, namely:

1) A baby is animated by the same soul as a still living person, so conscious behaviour of one is telepathically linked to conscious behaviour of the other.
2) Easily detectable instantaneous communication between
electrons and protons in strong contradiction with current
orthodox physics.

To call communication between physical particles 'telepathy'
makes fully sense in a panpsychistic (better: pandualistic)
world view, because the behaviour of elementary particles
depends on corresponding primitive souls (monads, psychons).

Especially 2) is nowadays an easily verifiable effect.
Electromagnetic fields need 20 nanoseconds for e.g. 6 meter
and tact-cycles of computers are in the meanwhile much lower
than one nanosecond. So it should be easy to decide whether
an information is transmitted according to orthodox physics
or according to "electric telepathy".

My question is the following: Would you accept also 2) as
an application for your prize if all is stated clearly in
advance. Let us assume, the distance between transmitter
and receiver is 6 meter. Then no transmission at all or a
transmission time of around 20 nanoseconds or longer (as
is predicted by orthodox physics) constitutes a negativ
result. A transmission time in the order of measurement
inaccuracies (far lower than 20 ns) constitutes a positiv
result.

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Randi sent his standard, "What on earth are you talking about?" response, and then got THIS in reply:

=============================================

I'm not sure whether you don't want to understand or whether you are unable to understand what I'm talking about. If one deals intensively with a topic, then one easily underestimates the complexity of concerning statements as seen from persons not having dealt as intensively as oneself with the topic.

I assume e.g. that Putin is the reincarnation of Stalin. Putin was
born on 1952-10-7. Stalin died on 1953-5-3. So during almost seven months, Putin and Stalin were linked inasfar as their existence depended on one and the same soul. Such a dependence is (if actually real as I assume) an emprical, rather easily testable effect which can be called paranormal inasfar as it cannot be explained by materialistic means.

I think there is no doubt that you would accept the existence of
obvious psychic links between e.g. a one year old boy and an eighty year old man at different places as a possible application for "The Psychic Challenge". The problem consists only in finding such a pair of persons which depend on the same soul (and in convincing their relatives of testing).

My second proposal is in fact a relatively simple physical-
technical experiment. It concerns what often is called faster-than-
light (FTL) transmission of information. In any case, the result
I expect (transmission of information without delay over a few
meters) would constitute a first order scientific sensation. So
the deficiency that the experiment pertains rather to what you call 'pseudoscience' than to what you call 'paranormal' is made more than good by the fact that your prize will be remembered as part of a turning point in the evolution of science.

I'd like to hear from you.

Regards,
Wolfgang

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This is the point at which Randi forwarded this email exchange to me, along with a little note that simply said, "For you".

[KRAMER]

Dear James,

I have met you before at various conferences. I routinely tell my psychology students about your challenge and your web site. I wanted to ask a question regarding the challenge. Is it open to non-humanoid species? In other words, if a cat (which I do not own) could be shown to have "paranormal" predictive powers of some sort (as alleged by some) in a double-blind study, would the cat be eligible for the prize money?

-Bill *****

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Oh come on now.

You think you've heard it all, and then...

Come to think of it, I gave up on thinking I'd heard it all only weeks after my arrival here at JREF. Foolishness knows no bounds.

[Ashles]

Actually Bill's post raises an interesting question.

Why is every psychology professor in the world not reading this website every day?

They would have enough research material for ever.

Belgian suicidals, feline fantasy tranference, flame obsessives, god complex sufferers, delusionals, paranoid conspiracists, hospital obsessed anti-Munchausen's-by-proxy cases, pareidolia junkies, DID variants, good old fashoined schizophrenics...

There's a book, a film and a play in KRAMER's files.

[Zep]

Re Dalai Lama: What inquisitive and assertive young child would NOT say "That's mine! That's mine!" when shown lots of new, interesting objects they had never seen before? What they really mean is "I want it! Give it to me!" Seems the young DL was simply the first child they found in their great search who was not shy of them.

Re "transferrence of soul" claim: With one child being born into this world every 3 or 4 seconds, the chances are very good that there will be many births coinciding almost exactly with the death of the Buddhist Master. So it's a no-lose claim, and hardly a paranormal prediction. I sense a scammer, really...

[Lisa Simpson]

Originally posted by Zep
Re Dalai Lama: What inquisitive and assertive young child would NOT say "That's mine! That's mine!" when shown lots of new, interesting objects they had never seen before? What they really mean is "I want it! Give it to me!" Seems the young DL was simply the first child they found in their great search who was not shy of them.


I don't buy it either, but here's the quote (bolding mine):

This time they brought with them a number of things that had belonged to the Thirteenth Dalai Lama, together with several similar items that did not. In every case, the infant correctly identified those belonging to the Thirteenth Dalai Lama saying, “It’s mine. It’s mine.� This more or less convinced the search party that they had found the new incarnation. It was not long before the boy from Taktser was acknowledged to be the new Dalai Lama.

[KRAMER]

Dear Mr. Kramer,
imagine, you would like as a foreigner to become member of a national society whose admission procedure is quite complicated and expensive. After having read the application text you are still unsure whether for you as a foreigner it is possible at all to become a member. I suppose, you would ask the society before starting the whole application procedure, wouldn't you? And that's exactly what I did.

And if you were insulted by the society, instead of being enlightened whether it is in principle possible for a foreigner to become member, you would probably interpret this reaction as a rather impolite way of admitting that foreigners in general or you "in special" are unwanted, wouldn't you?

But maybe I have not formulated clearly and concisely enough my
question:

Does a simple physical experiment which can be "designed in such a way that the results are self-evident, and no judging process is required" qualify as a "$1 Million Paranormal Challenge" application, if the experiment can (at least in principle) refute a central premise of the modern materialistic world view? (This basic premise is: non-mediated instantaneous (i.e. without delay) physical interactions cannot exist (non-mediated quantum-mechanical correlations are a quite different topic, and are said to be unusable for faster-than-light information transmission).

Regards,
Wolfgang G****

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Dear Sir,

Self-evident in the scientific sense of the word? YES.
Self-evident to you as per your interpretations? NO.

"At least in principle?"...NO !!!
As the result of an actual demonstration of whatever it is you're talking about? YES!!!

If you are serious about your claim, it's time for you to stop the emails and send in a Chalenge application. We have neither the time nor the inclination to engage you in an endeless stream of correspondence that seems to be leading absolutely nowhere.

-Kramer, JREF Paranormal Claims Dept.

[KRAMER]

>>Self-evident in the scientific sense of the word? YES.
>>Self-evident to you as per your interpretations? NO.

Self-evident under the by far simplest interpretation. It is always
possible to explain away an experimental result by some obscure
ad-hoc-hypotheses.

>>>"At least in principle?"...NO !!!

By "the experiment can (at least in principle)" I mean that the
experiment is designed in such a way, that there are apriori
several possible results. At least one of theses possible results
(the one I anticipate) must be capable of directly refuting in an
very self-evident way Maxwell's theory (and all other parts of
physics built up from this theory such special relativity, quantum
mechanics, general relativity, QED, and so on.)

>> As the result of an actual demonstration of whatever it is you're talking about? YES!!!

So I have to start an inquiry, whether it is already possible to
measure time intervals in the nanometer range by using synchronized clocks which can be triggered by the onset or offset of an electric current. Because clock cycles of the fastest computers are far lower than one nanosecond, I suppose that time interval measurements in the nanosecond range should at least in principle be possible.

Unfortunately I cannot say, how long it will take (and how expensive it will be) to do all the necessary preparations in order to make a formal application for your one million prize.

Thank you for your efforts,
Wolfgang *******************

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OK Wolfgang,

You let us know.

-Kramer, JREF

[KRAMER]

Sir,
I am a regular reader of your articles posted by the JREF. I have been reading these articles for almost three years. I am convinced that no yogi (challenger) has proven his abilities to demonstrate higher states of consciousness or the mysterious kundalini. This could be due to the inability (scientific limitations) to test such claims or JREF does not recognize such claims.

Sir, I can in any type of test, scientifically or by physical observation demonstrate the presence of higher states of consciousness and raise the kundalini to the head centre. I wish to take the JREF challenge to prove the existence of this divine power. Am I eligible to apply?

Thanking You, Madhusudan

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Sir,

Your proposed claim is NOT something that can be verified scientifically. "Kundalini" is a metaphysical term with no real, scientifically accepted definition. I know that YOU strongly believe that it is clearly defined, and other yogic practitioners may well agree with your definition, but science has yet to recognize any of this.

In order for you to "raise the Kundalini to the head centre", you must first define Kundalini, as well as "head center". These are subjective terms based upon your interpreation of what you are experiencing, and the JREF does not conduct tests that claim subjective phenomenon. Quite the contrary.

A demonstration is required, and we are unaware of any objective test that could verify your proposed claim.

So, in answer to your question, although the JREF does recognize claims such as yours as being valid, we are at a loss as to how to test for evidence of it.

If you can suggest a test that might do so, our ears are always open.

Thank you for your inquiry.

-Kramer, JREF Paranormal Claims Dept.

[KRAMER]

How are you doing?
My name is Lee, Hyun-yun in Korea.
I send the letter to you becaus I want to participate in your program.
I can prove paranormal and supernatural thing exactly.
I want to apply your program but I don't know how to participate in your program.
So I need your help.
please help me have a opportunity to apply your program.
Again, I can demonstrate my supernatural ability.
Please send information to me.
I will wait for concrete information from you.
And I don't understand English well.
So please send a mail to me with easy words.
It will be able to prove the mechanism of spirit
Duplex structure of existenceknowledge, Wisdom, Love, soul ....

-Lee, Hyun- yun from Korea.

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Dear Sir,

We do not accept religious calims, or claims based upon subjective experience, love, wisdom, etc.
Your claim cannot, to our knowledge, be scientifically verified.
If you can propose a test in which your claim can be verified, we are anxious to hear it, and would
certainly consider accepting your claim for testing.

-Kramer, JREF Paranormal Claims Dept.

[KRAMER]

Yogi provides an excellent example of what we are presently debating is this forum - namely, the believers inability to entertain any notion that they are deluded, their continuous attempts to force the JREF to fall in line behind their definitions, and their complete and utter misunderstanding of science.

This inquirer even uses statements such as, "Any medical doctor can confirm to you that if anybody can do such a feat it is not a natural phenomenon...", when it is more than abvious that he has no knowledge whatsoever of what a doctor might say in response to feeling something odd on his forehead.

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Sir,

I thank you for your prompt reply. Kundalini is a divine energy, if science is unable to confirm its presence in the body it is also due to fact that very few people practicing it are successful. I sincerely do not wish to indulge you into discussions related to science of kundalini as it does not serve our immediate purpose.

The only way I can prove the existence of this energy is by allowing the investigators to touch the top central part of my head (please understand that I am not talking about any charkas here, it is purely the location from external point of view) and feel it. This feeling is like a heart beat and has considerable amount of heat. As we all know heat is energy, this energy is raised to the head by certain yogic practices and devotion. This is the perfect evidence I can think of and demonstrate. Any medical doctor can
confirm to you that if anybody can do such a feat it is not a natural phenomenon.

These are the fool-proof procedures to conduct this demonstration.

1. I could before demonstration have a cold head wash, thus eliminating any outside heat effect (I am presently in Chennai, India, where temperature exceeds 40 degree Celsius, so you will notice people who are exposed to sun would find their head little warm. This preparation is to eliminate such an effect).

2. I could be seated in an AC room for a particular length of time depending on the investigator's wish.

3. After the investigator is convinced, he can touch and examine my top central part of the head to feel intense heat and vibrations.

4. If the investigator is a medical doctor, I suppose he can easily determine the existence of such heat to be purely self created and not the result of any fever or any external influence.

I hope Sir you will find my suggestions to be viable, if not, please be let me know what I should do to satisfactorily provide evidence for my claim.

Thanking you, Madhusudan.

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Dear Sir,

I regret to say that your proposed test is completely void of any scientific relevance. Even if you COULD demonstrate unusual heat in your forehead, how would this verify your claim that it is the direct result of what you call "Kundalini"?

In answer to your question, we have absolutely no idea as to how you can provide proof of your claim. We sincerely wish we could, but we have no idea what Kundalini actually IS.

We understand quite well what you BELIEVE it is, but that doesn't offer us any data in determining what the word truly means, if anything. We fear it is just a word.

-Kramer, JREF Paranormal Claims Dept.

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Now, for you forum members, I always try to get Randi to give a direct answer to the question many applicants put forth, as this one did, which is...

"What kind of test would be acceptable to you?"

This is a very reasonable question, but can it be answered?

With claims such as these, there really is absolutely no answer we can give that doesn't sound like a refusal to test them. By asking them repeatedly to offer up a definition of a word that has none, we tend to sound (as one forum member has accused me of being) belligerent.

I can offer a great little example today: I advised Randi that I was fielding questions from a Yogic practitioner who wanted us to believe that Kundalini was a fact, and could therefore be tested.

He said, "Ask him what it is."

"I did that already."

"What did he say?"

"Nothing. He just offered a protocol that he believed would prove its' existence. Obviously, we can't test for something unless we know what is."

"Exactly."

Randi then tried to walk away, but I wouldn't let him. Not yet.

"I want to try harder. Tell me what you would do," I said.

"Ask him to define MUKKABOO."

"What?"

"Ask him to define MUKKABOO, or YANTOFF, or WEEGEEWOMB."

"What the hell are those?"

"Exactly! And we don't know what Kundalini is, either. We know what he means in theory, but we don't test theories."

Needless to say I have no intention of asking this fellow to define MUKKABOO, but Randi's parable does illustrate the inherent difficulties with such claims. There's really no way around it.

I don't know how to test such a claim, despite my wish to be able to snap my fingers and arrive at a manner of doing so.

And if the word has no accepted meaning, is this even a paranormal claim?

Or is it a Mukkaboo Yantoff Weegeewomb in Spazokin Fritzonay
Balikoneekee Taxadime?

[KRAMER]

Dear Mr Kramer,

Thank you sir, for your kind reply. However, I wish to bring to your kind knowledge that there are states of consciousness which still are beyond the grasp of science. In any case, I am happy that such organisation exists in our society.We do need such organisations to protect gullible people from frauds.

If you have time, you can visit this site
http://www.sivanandadlshq.org/download/download.htm
and download 'Kundalini yoga' book under 'Books by Sri Swami Sivanandaji Maharaj' to know more about kundalini.

Warm regards,

Madhusudan

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Dear Sir,

Thank you. We wish you well.

-Kramer, JREF Paranormal Claims Dept.