THE GOD THREAD

[KRAMER]

I thought that perhaps, just perhaps, some of you might like to see the kind of "debates" I'm drawn into over the JREF's refusal to test claims regarding the existence of, well, you know who.

I suspect this will be a long, long thread.

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Sir, a conversation with Linda shows there is something incoherent about JREF or perhaps something further I don't understand. Apparently efforts to prove the supernatural power of Jesus Christ can be demonstrated today are excluded from the $1 Million challenge. To be coherent, rejecting such claimants should lead to rejecting most of the pro and con Christian posts in the Religion and Philosophy section. What is the purpose of this inconsistency?-Kirk

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Dear Kirk,

If you can suggest a test protocol that can scientifically verify the existence of god (or his "powers"), we'd like to hear about it. The reason such claims are now excluded from the JREF Challenge is that they are NOT verifiable under controlled conditions. There is nothing inconsistent about our application of the scientific method of inquiry. I hope this satisfies you, but, I sincerely doubt that it will.

Sir, you are entirely free to maintain your religious beliefs, but the JREF will not entertain any demands made upon us in support of them. Also, you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the very nature of the JREF Challenge. We do not "invest" in developing a winner, nor will we ever. The onus of proof is upon the applicant. Read the Challenge rules again, and again, if you fail to comprehend this.

-Kramer, JREF Paranormal Claims Dept.

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Dear Kramer,

Here's the proposal that was rejected by Linda:

"I request the JREF put some money and effort toward developing a winner. I believe if 1,000 or more people can be pursuaded to seriously obey Jesus Christ's words for 4 years, at least a fraction of them will experience the miracles described in the Bible. No church I've heard of actually obeys Jesus Christ's written words so some effort is needed to develop such a church.
I am willing to donate some of my time to work on the second subject of developing a winner along the lines I have written. I have already written a book "Future Christianity" to explain how to follow Jesus Christ instead of traditional Christianity and I'm willing to donate copies of the book."

As one who sometimes experiences God's power, I realize it is difficult to repeat under any conditions, especially because the state which constituted the need which was prayed for would not exist after God's answer. Likewise any faith that produced fairly repeatable effects can often be attributed to other causes and nobody could depend electrical instruments to "prove" any cause. So there is a need for something more substantial, like overwhelming Biblical miracles, which doesn't happen as much these days mainly because TV and other distractions from an atmosphere of prayer that was more pronounced among Bible characters. That's why I believe the atmosphere of prayer must be recreated then miracles should happen.

As a Bible analyst, I know one doesn't actually need to experience or prove God to have a great reason for acting so. Since God as a concept is absolute perfection, it produces imperfections of thought and action to believe in discord with that concept. So even without the spiritual reality of God answering prayer, it's logically better to believe God is real.

Love Truth,
Kirk
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I'll hear more from Kirk, I'm quite sure, but I won't let this effluvium continue ad infinitum.

[KRAMER]

Here is proof and it can be backed up scientifically. There is a definite order to the universe. Scientist, primarily physicists, along the lines of Einsteins theory of relativity are exploring the make-up of our universe. A lot of them are concluding that Einstein's theory may not have all the correct answers, but at least has started them on a presumed right track to better understand how the universe is organized. Will we, as humans, ever understand the organization of the universe? That will, in all likelihood, not happen in anyone's lifetime that is alive today. We as humans need to continue our investigation even though we will probably never have all the answers.

So what part does God play in this organization? God IS THE ORGANIZATION. Without God there would be chaos. Of coarse, there are some theories that the universe started from chaos. Perhaps, but then God was the organizing control behind this chaos. Without God all actions would be random and and without any pattern at all. This does not happen in nature.

Is God a grandfatherly gentleman that sits on a throne behind some cloud waiting to hear and answer our prayers - probably not? Some people chose to believe this and if that makes them comfortable - no harm, no foul. Does God have a cadre of helpers (angels, saints, etc) to assist Him in hearing and answering our prayers? Again perhaps he does and if that makes a person comfortable - go for it.

People want to know a definite answer and the answer is right there in front of there faces. Atoms with defined structures make up our world - a steel plate is the same everywhere, likewise a gold ring, a flower petal, a strand of DNA. God is the organization of the universe and He is what makes the world we live in function. We won't see Him do this. We won't meet a distinguished gentleman. Perhas our best goal is to have an understanding of the entire universe around us.

So what about your Million Dollars? You can keep it. I seriously doubt you have a million dollars to give away to anyone anyway.
You are a doubter and an agitator and, if God was sitting on a throne behind a cloud and somehow you saw Him, you still wouldn't believe in Him. God exists. It's the form we don't, and may never be able to understand and comprehend.

Have fun with your little contest. You drew me in.

Sincerely,
(signature indecipherable)

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As this was sent with no application, no claim of paranormal ability, and nothing pertaining to the Challenge save a few vague slurs, I will offer no response.

[Pup]

I believe if 1,000 or more people can be pursuaded to seriously obey Jesus Christ's words for 4 years, at least a fraction of them will experience the miracles described in the Bible.

I believe if 1,000 or more people can be persuaded to religiously purchase lottery tickets each day for 4 years, at least a fraction of them will experience winnings high enough above chance to pass the test for the million dollar challenge.

[thatguywhojuggles]

It always cracks me up when people who need to believe in "God" but don't believe in the "God" of the Christian faith or other gods, decide that god is nature, or god is the order of the universe. So they ask. I believe god is nature, god is the order of the universe. Do you believe in god?

I believe in nature, and the order of the universe--I just don't call it god.

If I called a garden shovel Santa Claus, will you believe in Santa Claus?

[TheBoyPaj]

These people don't seem to realise that if they can prove God's powers, but don't CALL it "God's power", then they'll be rolling in dough.

Water into wine? That's eligible, if only they could stop prattling on about God.

[Beady]

I believe if 1,000 or more people can be pursuaded to seriously obey Jesus Christ's words for 4 years, at least a fraction of them will experience the miracles described in the Bible.

Y'know, thinking about it, seriously, there are very few Biblical miracles that would be of any real use to me, especially in the New Testament. I don't drink enough for the water-wine thing to be worthwhile, and I really don't think I'd want to be resurrected (and I certanly don't want some yutz like John Edward disturbing me). We're living within our means, so there's no need for the loaves and fishes. Although we live directly on the Quebec border, the Canuckians there all speak English (as soon as they realize I'm not from Ontario), so speaking in tongues isn't necessary. If I could drive on water my commute would only be shortened by five minutes or so.

No, I really don't see this as an incentive.

[Temporal Renegade]

quote:
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I believe if 1,000 or more people can be pursuaded to seriously obey Jesus Christ's words for 4 years, at least a fraction of them will experience the miracles described in the Bible.
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Well, from what I understand, millions of people obey Christ's word all their lives, not just for four years. Does that mean that a larger cross-section (sorry, couldn't resist) would experience the 'miracles'? If so, why aren't more people showing us these feats?

[Carn]

Originally posted by KRAMER

If you can suggest a test protocol that can scientifically verify the existence of god (or his "powers"), we'd like to hear about it.

Maybe i make a mistake, but afaik not even god himself can prove, that he is god and he cannot even prove it for himself, so he qill always be uncertain about his own existance.

(Just have to post this link here: http://www.bbspot.com/News/2001/06/atheist.html)

Carn

[c4ts]

At least he didn't find out about the R&P forum we have. Mmmmmm... trollmeat. Glaaaaaaaalll...

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by KRAMER
So what part does God play in this organization? God IS THE ORGANIZATION. Without God there would be chaos.
I guess he hasn't heard of chaos theory, nor of the fact that quantum foam is roiling and boiling. At the sub-atomic level, the universe IS chaotic.
Just like his thinking.

[jmercer]

I have to agree - he's really missing the boat there. He's trying to capitalize on all the recent "Universe by design!" stuff that's been floating around lately. No one needs God to explain the existence and structure of the universe. That doesn't mean that God doesn't exist, and didn't create the universe, etc. But if there were a fundamental requirement for God's existence in the structure of the universe, then people wouldn't be having debates about it because we'd find the "fingerprints" somewhere at some point. (Always assuming that God didn't purposely eliminate any evidence of his existence.)

That doesn't mean that God doesn't exist, of course. Even Occam's Razor (which is not infallible at the best of times) isn't applicable, because we don't really know how the universe was created - yet, anyway. And, of course, we continually find out that some of our theories are surprisingly wrong. (The existence of dark matter/dark energy and the accelerating expansion of the universe being the most recent examples.)

God - by definition in many different religions - is unknowable and transcendent to our reality. That makes God outside of human capacity to define. How the heck can you define or prove something that you can't even envision? It's an ironclad catch-22 paradox, as in "The Tao that can be spoken is not the Tao". The God that can be defined (or proven) isn't God - by definition. Nice insurance for the religion-biz.

So when these holy-rollers try to prove God's existence by using demonstrations, or "logic", or anything else, I always find it entertaining. :D

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
I guess he hasn't heard of chaos theory, nor of the fact that quantum foam is roiling and boiling. At the sub-atomic level, the universe IS chaotic.
Just like his thinking.

You mean his thinking is so small it's subatomic?

[Brown]

It would seem to me that there are a lot of so-called biblical miracles that could be tested. How about walking on liquid water? Peter reportedly was able to do so by faith (Matt. 14). How about casting a mountain into the sea, which Jesus specifically said those with faith can do (Matt. 21:21)? It would probably not be a good idea to test whether people can consume deadly poison, even though Jesus specifically promised that such a thing could be done (Mark 16:18). A better trick would be to raise the dead, which Jesus said was permitted, and he commanded his disciples to do it (Matt. 10:8).

It should also be possible to do non-Biblical (and cheap!) miracles, such as causing water to flow uphill, or causing a pendulum of fixed length to change its period. After all, Jesus promised that if you ask anything in the name of the Almighty, it will be given to you (e.g., John 14:14).

None of these miracles requires any cash outlay! In fact, the Bible specifically asserts that miraculous gifts of the Almighty cannot be purchased with money (Acts 8:20).

[jmercer]

Testable items? Sure. :)

But only if you can find someone who claims to be able to do it. :D

[Carn]

Originally posted by jmercer
Testable items? Sure. :)

But only if you can find someone who claims to be able to do it. :D

There are people who believe every word in the bible(their version) is true.
So effectively these people claim, that the true believer is able to walk on water, throw around mountains or raise the dead.

Mmmh...
Assuming they are right, i only have the following conclusion:
As none of these fundamentalists is able to throw around mountains, raise the dead or walk on water regularly, it means they are not true believers, just some followers, who cannot make up their mind.

Maybe someone could ask 1inchrist about this problem. :p

Carn

[jmercer]

Well, heck, you can (and apparently, we do) find people who believe in just about anything. :)

Doesn't make it true - nor does it make it untrue, actually. Personally, I find the bible to be mostly anecdotal rhetoric - which doesn't make it without value. It's just not particularly valuable in proving or disproving the existence of God. Too bad, really. :(

[KRAMER]

This "God Thread" began with an email from someone who signs his correspondence simply, "Kirk".

He's back. He begins by referring to "the proposal that was rejected by Linda", to which I had already responded.

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Anything happening with the below email or are you considering it case closed?

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Dear Kirk,

As we have no Challenge application from you, there is no file or "case", and as such, there is nothing to close. Also, I have already advised you as to the eligibility of your claim.

-Kramer, JREF

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I didn't spend my time to write the email for such an ignorant, flippant, dismissive response. Get off your self and write a reply.

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No, actually, I don't believe that I will.

If I get more from him, and I predict that I will, I'll post it.

[KRAMER]

Dear Kramer,
How are you doing?
My name is Lee, Hyun-yun in Korea.
I can do a soul and a conversation through a computer
There is looking Su knows all mystery of the universe may find the faith that has lost
Again, I can demonstrate my supernatural ability.
Please send information to me.
asks for just reply

[Phrost]

What's up with all the Korea woos? Has Randi been on TV out there?

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Phrost
What's up with all the Korea woos? Has Randi been on TV out there?
Yes: Here (http://www.randi.org/jr/022103.html) and here. (http://www.randi.org/jr/022803.html)

[Gr8wight]

Yeah, Kramer! Come on! Get off yourself!

[Ashles]

Huh?

[Powa]

Originally posted by Ashles
Huh?
What he said.

[Atlas]

Gr8wight was just scoffing at Kirk who offered that directive of Kramer in his demand for a response. It's up above several posts.

I think Kramer might in fact write back to Kirk and tell him to go ahead and sequester 1000 believers for 4 years with a copy of Kirk's book (See OP) and then return for the prize and heal the sick in hospitals. At which demonstration the prize money will be handed over. What is interesting is that Kirk believes that although he's the author of the book he cannot achieve Christ power himself. Otherwise he'd perform the demonstrations out of his own faith. He ends up sounding like someone who is only trying to promote his book. "Hey the JREF challenge people recognized the potential of this book so much that of all literature on the subject they chose this book to test. We'll know in 4 years. Copies on sale now."

[KRAMER]

Originally posted by Gr8wight
Yeah, Kramer! Come on! Get off yourself!

I'm trying, but I'm stuck again.

Until then, here's another inquirer who thinks he can prove god exists, by...

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[

Sir,

We are in no way connected with THINK AND REASON.

The JREF is NOT interested in unverifiable claims such as the one you refer to here. If, however, someone can devise a test that will conclusively prove the existence of god, we will change our position on this.

-Kramer, JREF Paranormal Claims Dept.

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Scott requested that his comments be deleted as he is not a forum member and has no desire to have his comments ridiculed here. His email to Kramer was reproduced here without his permission. Edited by Linda 2-9-05
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Dream on, Scott. This is not a an acceptable test. In fact, it's not even a "test". Your dreams prove nothing. Please Wake Up.

-Kramer, JREF Paranormal Claims Dept.