The Draft

[Tony]

Assuming you are of age, if drafted, would you dodge the draft or fight in this war?

[DavidJames]

I'm to old. If there was a draft and I was of age, I would probably accept it and enter the service.

Tony, How about you?

[Fade]

I see the draft as corrupt and illegal. If it is instituted (I am too old for it now) I will leave the country immediately.

[Tony]

Originally posted by DavidJames


Tony, How about you?

Im 23, and I feel like I should be fighting right now. I have been thinking about joining the military, but im keeping my options open. However, if I was drafted, I would definatly go.

[DavidJames]

"Im 23, and I feel like I should be fighting right now. I have been thinking about joining the military, but im keeping my options open. However, if I was drafted, I would definatly go."

Having read you strong pro war posts, and attacks on the protesters, I'm not surprised at all about your age and the fact that you aren't in the military, but "have been thinking joining" riiiiight. Keep up the good work, arm chair General. :rolleyes:

[Tony]

Originally posted by DavidJames


Having read you strong pro war posts, and attacks on the protesters, I'm not surprised at all about your age and the fact that you aren't in the military, but "have been thinking joining" riiiiight. Keep up the good work, arm chair General. :rolleyes:

seriously, I have a meeting with the Navy tomorrow.

[Victor Danilchenko]

Tony

seriously, I have a meeting with the Navy tomorrow.yeah. And I have a meeting with the Nobel prize committe in artistico-mathematical philosophy (formed just for my benefit) to discuss my multiple Nobel-Oscar-Fields nominations.

Let me know when you actually screw up the courage of your convictions, and join the military. "A meeting with the Navy" is neither here nor there.

[gnome]

Personally I believe that in a healthy country, if you are unable to recruit enough volunteers to fight a war, then the justness of that war should be seriously reviewed. To me that's a political check.

Given that, if I were young enough to be drafted... (and objected to the war I was being drafted to fight) I would most likely seek conscientious objector status, or otherwise accept the consequences of refusing to respond to a draft (go to jail, etc.).

This is all very hypothetical... if I were alive and of drafting age during the Vietnam war, this is exactly what I would do. I think it's too early to tell about this war by the time a draft would be necessary.

In the event of a direct military threat to my country, I would certainly volunteer before even being drafted.

[Tmy]

I never understood how you can have a draft wh/o a declaration of war. Will Congress ever bother to declare war again. Doesnt seem like the pres needs them.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Victor Danilchenko
Tony

"A meeting with the Navy" is neither here nor there.

I know, a meeting with the navy is thinking about joining the military and exploring my options, thats what I said I was doing.

[Andonyx]

The Selective Service website has some interesting things I didn't know about the way the draft has changed since Vietnam, also other details on linked pages:

http://www.sss.gov/viet.htm

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Tony
Assuming you are of age, if drafted, would you dodge the draft or fight in this war?

Hey, I have already been to war and even though I am older now I will go back with you if you get drafted Tony. I will be your battle buddy. Basic training would be a vacation to me.

Left, right, left, right, left. Yes, Drill Sergeant!

JK

[DrBenway]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
Left, right, left, right, left. Yes, Drill Sergeant!
Yes, Drill Seargent, SIR! ya maggot!

[Khalid01]

I would attempt to "escape" the draft in any way possible. I do not support this war at all, but my arguments for opposistion have deteriorated, so I completely abstain. Also, if I were of age, I would prefer to go to college instead, that is far more important to me and hopefully society as a whole if I could eventually make a non-combatant aid.

[AmateurScientist]

Originally posted by DrBenway

Yes, Drill Seargent, SIR! ya maggot!

Not in the US Army. All sergeants work for a living. They won't let you call them "Sir."

"Sir" is for officers, who are affectionately but not really disrespectfully seen as having a "softer" job than the enlisted man.

The US Marines, on the other hand, do allow or perhaps even demand the title "Sir" from trainees towards drill sergeants during training, IIRC.

AS

I would welcome a non-combat situation, or any situation that doesn't have a direct or indirect role in causing death.

[Agammamon]

Originally posted by AmateurScientist

"Sir" is for officers, who are affectionately but not really disrespectfully seen as having a "softer" job than the enlisted man.

The US Marines, on the other hand, do allow or perhaps even demand the title "Sir" from trainees towards drill sergeants during training, IIRC.

AS

"affectionately", Yeah right. The truth that is hidden from you civilians out there is that junior officers are, well the kindest word to use would be useless (the only exception to this rule are for the prior enlisted). Imagine, you're 22, just graduated college (with ANY degree, BA in underwater basket weaving is sufficient to get you a commission), you've spent a few months learning such important skills as how to wear your uniform and how to salute. Then you're assigned to run a division in which you have no idea what these people do. Thankfully you've got your Chiefs and 1st classes to show you what to do so that by the thime you're a LT you can actually start being an officer and not a trainee.

In Navy basic training, the instructors are called by rank (Petty Officer 1st Class So and So, Chief Petty Officer Yada Yada Yada)
Now to post something actually on topic. I am in the Navy right now, but if I weren't and a draft was instituted, I wouldn't go. I never regeistered for Selective Service for much the same reasons. This is a democracy and in a democracy, prople are allowed to vote with their feet. And in any case our gov shouldn't even be considering a draft short of a conflict that threatens the existence of our nation.

[Denise]

Well, at least I don't have to make that decision. If the situation was so bad that they got around to drafting 35 year old women, I would go.:D

I find it interesting that often young men are asked if they are for the war, why don't they enlist. I've haven't heard many ask that of a woman. Curious.

[AmateurScientist]

Originally posted by Agammamon


"affectionately", Yeah right. The truth that is hidden from you civilians out there is that junior officers are, well the kindest word to use would be useless (the only exception to this rule are for the prior enlisted). Imagine, you're 22, just graduated college (with ANY degree, BA in underwater basket weaving is sufficient to get you a commission), you've spent a few months learning such important skills as how to wear your uniform and how to salute. Then you're assigned to run a division in which you have no idea what these people do. Thankfully you've got your Chiefs and 1st classes to show you what to do so that by the thime you're a LT you can actually start being an officer and not a trainee.


Thanks for illuminating us "civilians." As one of those former junior officers, I can tell you quite confidently that none of the armed services can function without them. They form the backbone of the officer corps (and by design outnumber the field grade and flag officers combined). All senior officers are at some point in their careers junior officers.

You do not have to respect the person, but you do have to respect the rank. Respecting the person must be earned, whereas respecting the rank is a given and a requirement. Those who forget the latter often find themselves facing extra duty, Article 15s, or even courts-martial.

I can very well imagine being 22 and being an officer. I was there. Don't paint all junior officers with the same broad brush. Despite jokes to the contrary, some are very professional and understand quite clearly their proper role, their relative lack of experience and lack of unit and institutional knowledge, and their proper relationships to their subordinates within the chain of command who have much more experience. Many, if not most, of those junior officers have a very solid base in leadership training, understanding of command organization and structure, and unit and individual tactics. They've all studied those subjects, usually from a perspective that is different from that of the typical NCO.

When I used "affectionately" I had in mind senior NCOs who often look upon young junior officers as sons or perhaps nephews to be taught and guided into "coming of age" and into their own. I witnessed many very professional NCOs who were proud of their junior officers, but who wouldn't hesitate to instruct or correct them diplomatically, but always in private, so as not to undermine the officer's authority and ability to command respect from the troops.

Those same NCOs never hesitated to correct anyone calling them "Sir," with the stock response I explained ("Don't call me 'Sir.' I work for a living.") This was always a good-natured jab at officers in general, and not intended to be disrespectful. It is also an implicit recognition of the respective, but different roles of NCOs and officers. Also, often, if delivered in the presence of an officer, the NCO making the remark would smirk in a knowing "wink wink" fashion and give a quick glance to the officer. I stand by my assertion that it is at least somewhat affectionate.

Good luck in your service and your career, if you choose to make it one.

AS

[evildave]

The difference I perceived in the USAF was that officers manage things, or are "responsible" for things, enlisted do things.

If the job basically has "responsibility" involved, an officer does it. Any yahoo with an arcade addiction and an itchy trigger finger could fly in a plane and press the "bomb it" trigger to break things and/or kill people. The officer gets paid the big bucks for the liability involved.

Since I was aircrew (CDMT on an E3 (AWACS)), I worked with officers constantly. Officers have just as much work as anyone. The separation of tasks always boils down to "who's responsible".

All in all, as an enlisted guy, I got off too easy in this regard. Sure, I dragged heavy tapes around the flight line and had to sign for them and get the various WDs and ASTs to carry some of them and make sure they got into the plane. And I was "in charge" of the keeping the computer running. Outside of that, I had no responsibility for anything. Even when I was "disaster preparedness training NCO", my only task was to keep track of who had been to classes or not, and do whatever I was told. The captain who was "in charge" of DP was responsible for all of it.

Occasionally there were even "details", like FOD walks and yard work and other such junk.

When WE went TDY, we'd stay in hotel rooms.

Sure I'd go back in! A dream vacation compared to the work I do now. Schedule project milestones, design critical server components. Code, test, repeat endlessly... deal with team members who have "feelings". Yikes!

When I was an Airborne Computer/Display Maintenance Technician, most of my problems were solved with a cotton swab and some alcahol. Most of the rest were solved by rebooting and maybe flipping some switches... what remained of the problems were only marginally stressful situations where people could be killed because there wasn't a picture. That was EASY to deal with. I didn't ever pay attention to what they were doing in the back. I had my own job. It was primarily waiting for the printer to make "chuggeda-chuggeda" sounds because something needed doing.

The Air Force is a BREEZE. Good food. At worst, semi-private quarters, and the officers do most of the killing/dying.

None of that weird cultish "suffer for your country" crap you get in the Marines. If you think you're going to get "drafted", go enlist in the Air Force first. All you have to do is stay out of trouble, and don't drink too much, and you're practically "Airman of the Quarter".

----
I find it interesting that often young men are asked if they are for the war, why don't they enlist.
----


People who are for any war have psychological issues.

[Questioninggeller]

For this war, I would/will dodge... This war, like the election (or most elections) was a shame.

This is not American's War, this is Bush's War... let him enlist and fight for at least one time in his life before he sends anyone in to die.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Whodini
----
I find it interesting that often young men are asked if they are for the war, why don't they enlist.
----


People who are for any war have psychological issues.

What evidence do you have of this?

[Troll]

Screw it. I was gonna quote David and Victor for giving Tony crap about whether or not he's looking into enlisting and ask them what their military history is. But I'm tired and sitting on the fence of sobriety at the moment. So I won't quote both and just ask them both with this, the opening paragraph.

Agammamon, sorry but even though I was never a fan of butter bars, you have very limited knowledge of the US military. I've never heard of a lieutenant, 1st or 2nd, or even a captain, or a major, or even a colonel running a division. Nope, when you run a division you've been around quite a few years and more often than not have seen others that joined when you did already retire.

And yes in boot camp Marines are required to use "sir" when speaking to their drill instructors, we don't refer to them as drill sergeants.

Would I go if drafted, to this one? Yeah, been there before without a draft. But would I sign up on my own, if age wasn't an issue? No. I spent too many freaking years in deserts and I freaking hate them. I hate American desert bases, I hate Egyptian deserts, Saudi Arabian deserts and Kuwaiti deserts. I like jungles.

But then, I'm opposed to the draft anyhow. I'd freaking hate to be in combat and end up with someone like the idiots in my siggy assigned to watch my back.

Anyhow, hope i didn't offend too many people as I'm prone to do in this state of sleep deprivation and the alcohol induced attempt for sleep.

[Always Free]

I joined the army in 1974 I think it was. Well it was some time ago lol. I am no longer in the army but if I could I would re-enlist tomorrow. Of course for me to go to Iraq I would probably have to be either a nurse or on a ship but because of my age I would probably have a support role in Aust. Yes us Aussies are fighting in this war too.

[Troll]

Originally posted by Always Free
I joined the army in 1974 I think it was. Well it was some time ago lol. I am no longer in the army but if I could I would re-enlist tomorrow. Of course for me to go to Iraq I would probably have to be either a nurse or on a ship but because of my age I would probably have a support role in Aust. Yes us Aussies are fighting in this war too.

Fully aware that you guys are fighting it too. Also very appreciative of that. I just discovered a few days ago what sort of contingent Aussies sent to assist, and I have to say you guys didn't hold back. Unfortuantely the majority of the guys you sent work quietly and you won't hear much about what they are doing so recognition may be low if at all, but appreciation is great. Thanks

Originally posted by Tony

What evidence do you have of this?


People who knowingly and willingly participate in killing (no matter how cloaked under the civilized garb or patriotism, defense, etc.) have issues.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Whodini



People who knowingly and willingly participate in killing (no matter how cloaked under the civilized garb or patriotism, defense, etc.) have issues.

Thats nice, but where's your evidence?

[specious_reasons]

I turned 18 my freshman year in college. So, I registered for Selective Service, giving my residence hall address. The next year, the RH forwarded me a postcard reminder to update my Selective Service information.

It was not a choice moment of tact, since the postcard was sent right around the time Desert Shield was ramping up. My decision: I won't dodge a draft, but they'll have to find me first. The postcard got dumped in the trash.

Originally posted by Tony

Thats nice, but where's your evidence?


My evidence is that most people don't consider wanting to kill normal behavior. Any psychologist or employee of a correctional facility can testify to that.

Oh, but in war it is different because we are being patriotic and defending and (insert rephrasing of the word "killing" here), so it is OK.

People may not admit that they want to kill, but merely participating in the process is admission of guilty behavior.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Whodini



My evidence is that most people don't consider wanting to kill normal behavior. Any psychologist or employee of a correctional facility can testify to that.

Oh, but in war it is different because we are being patriotic and defending and (insert rephrasing of the word "killing" here), so it is OK.

People may not admit that they want to kill, but merely participating in the process is admission of guilty behavior.

I ask again, do you have any REAL evidence? I dont mean your stupid anecdotes.

[Always Free]

Originally posted by Troll


Fully aware that you guys are fighting it too. Also very appreciative of that. I just discovered a few days ago what sort of contingent Aussies sent to assist, and I have to say you guys didn't hold back. Unfortuantely the majority of the guys you sent work quietly and you won't hear much about what they are doing so recognition may be low if at all, but appreciation is great. Thanks

Thanks very much Troll:)

Yes our service men and women are getting amongst it all. From de-mining the waters at Kuwait to air strikes at Baghdad and Special Forces troops on the ground, they are doing a great job. I'm hoping every day that US troops and the British troops stay safe. Let's hope it all ends soon.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Originally posted by AmateurScientist


You do not have to respect the person, but you do have to respect the rank. Respecting the person must be earned, whereas respecting the rank is a given and a requirement. Those who forget the latter often find themselves facing extra duty, Article 15s, or even courts-martial.
AS

As an aside, that is one big reason you won't catch me in the armed forces.

I'd have to take concepts like "respecting the rank" seriously. :rolleyes:

Compounding the problem is the fact that authoritarian systems attract the kind of shriveled soul who likes the idea of being respected for an empty title rather than (or in spite of) their own abilities and actions.

[Always Free]

Originally posted by Kevin_Lowe


As an aside, that is one big reason you won't catch me in the armed forces.

I'd have to take concepts like "respecting the rank" seriously. :rolleyes:

Compounding the problem is the fact that authoritarian systems attract the kind of shriveled soul who likes the idea of being respected for an empty title rather than (or in spite of) their own abilities and actions.

Hi Kevin,

I guess with an attitude like yours that you are your own boss??;)

But--when I was in the army--near Wodonga--I never came across one of those "shriveled soul" people you mention. In fact all of my superior officers and sergeants, staff sergeants etc were good decent people with normal sized heads, we even had a sergeant who reminded me of John Wayne as a soldier in a movie. He was great and well respected for who he was. But Warrant Officers---well no one's perfect:D

Hey, you should give enlistment a go mate. I'm a girl and if I can do it you should be able to--Yes??;)

[Q-Source]

Whodini
People who are for any war have psychological issues.

Tony
What evidence do you have of this?

Oh, sweet irony :cool:

So... Tony. Did you have that meeting to join the navy or are you still playing with those Playstation games and watching TV?

[onceamarine]

First time poster, long time lurker...

First let me say that I do not have, nor will I claim, to have the high IQ that many on this forum possess, but I'm no fool either. Being a Marine I have high opinions on this particular subject and have some things to say to a few of you. I am 27 years old, have a wife and child, and have served my country honorably. I am strongly for this war in Iraq. For those of you against, I ask you this...How many of you against the war have ever been to the Middle East? How many of you have seen what the Saddam regime has done to its people, and people of the sorounding countries. I think it is a safe bet to say that none of you have. Prove me wrong. That being said...

1. "Whodini" you are a moron. My evidence? "People who knowingly and willingly participate in killing (no matter how cloaked under the civilized garb or patriotism, defense, etc.) have issues." Throughout history, millions have participated, willfully, to fight tyranny. Did they all have psychological issues? Or, unlike you, did they realize that freedom is not free...that is must be fought for, and defended? I have nothing else to say to you, any responses will be met by silence on my end. I have no time to waste on fools such as you.

2. "Questioninggeller" and the others (you know who you are), you are cowards with little to no morals. You take and take and take everything freedom has provided to you, but you refuse to fight for it, or for those that have given the ultimate sacrifice to ensure you have it. You are thieves. You are the lowest of low.

3. For those of you who will undoubtedly make the comment "Why aren't you over their fighting then?"...I got out of the Marines back at the tail end of 1999. The reason I left was because I wanted to see what family life could be like without being in the service. Once it became apparent, over the last few months, that war was inevitable, I decided it was time to return to the Corps and be along side my "brothers and sisters." I realized my own welfare and happiness would have to take a back seat for a little while. However, last year I was diagnosed with skin cancer and had a rather large malignant melanoma removed from my chest. While I am fully recovered, and cancer free, the military will not let me back in due to my medical history. I am currently trying to find ways around this, however my medical history is now on file in D.C. and is making a return extremely unlikely.

4. The reasons recruits in Marine boot camp refer to DI's as "Sir", is because they are not considered to be Marines yet. They have not earned that right until they graduate boot camp. Until they do, everyone they speak to will either be "Sir" or "Ma'am." Once they earn the title, they will refer to all enlisted (including the DI's) by their rank and name.

5. Someone, I cannot remember who (and I'm not even sure it was in this topic as I can't locate it now) made the comment that America is a democracy so the draft should be considered illegal, or something to that affect. To that individual (and any others that think this way) I say this...America is NOT a democracy...we are a Represented Republic. Go back to grade school and slap your history teacher as you were misinformed.

----
I am 27 years old, have a wife and child, and have served my country honorably. I am strongly for this war in Iraq.
----


I'm sure you woudn't be though if our opponent was a little tougher, a little stronger, and had good technology. Why isn't your wife over there? Would you send your son/daughter over there?


----
1. "Whodini" you are a moron. My evidence? "People who knowingly and willingly participate in killing (no matter how cloaked under the civilized garb or patriotism, defense, etc.) have issues." Throughout history, millions have participated, willfully, to fight tyranny. Did they all have psychological issues? Or, unlike you, did they realize that freedom is not free...that is must be fought for, and defended? I have nothing else to say to you, any responses will be met by silence on my end. I have no time to waste on fools such as you.
----


You'd rather be pro-war. Good for you.

Freedom is not free in part because of war. Don't you get that? How can another country be free if we "liberate" it? And how can we be free if we are using guns and killing (in the name of patriotism, of course)?

Originally posted by Tony

I ask again, do you have any REAL evidence? I dont mean your stupid anecdotes.


You are the breathing evidence.