Is KRAMER wasting his time?

[Dr Adequate]

KRAMER seems to spend a lot of time dealing with lonely, unhappy people with mental health problems. They come to us.

But I would find the $1,000,000 prize a lot more useful if instead the JREF would seek out the charlatans, and offer them $1,000,000 if they're telling the truth. Any time, on the internet, you can find worthless gadgets costing literally thousands of dollars, which would win the JREF prize if they worked. They make me seethe.

We read occasionally in the Commentaries about Randi personally getting involved, and going after a fraud: but usually nothing. I can post on here all I like about some scam, and nothing happens.

So the JREF million, which should be a big stick to beat charlatans with, is in fact just a further source of unhappiness for unhappy people.

And KRAMER --- I think you're doing your job about as well as any human being could do that job. I'm just wondering whether it could be more worthwhile.

[CurtC]

I was thinking of posting something along the same lines. We must have a psychic connection. My thoughts were that the people who apply for the prize are quite often mentally inadequate, so answering them all politely would be a great burden. But with the stated policy of not going out and offering the prize, as Randi mentions occasionally, means that these are pretty much all you're going to get.

But Randi has solicited people for the prize - I can think of Sylvia Browne and Penta Water as examples. I agree that it would be nice to have more of a campaign to do that frequently.

[DevilsAdvocate]

Originally posted by Dr Adequate
KRAMER seems to spend a lot of time dealing with lonely, unhappy people with mental health problems. They come to us.

But I would find the $1,000,000 prize a lot more useful if instead the JREF would seek out the charlatans, and offer them $1,000,000 if they're telling the truth. Any time, on the internet, you can find worthless gadgets costing literally thousands of dollars, which would win the JREF prize if they worked. They make me seethe.

We read occasionally in the Commentaries about Randi personally getting involved, and going after a fraud: but usually nothing. I can post on here all I like about some scam, and nothing happens.

So the JREF million, which should be a big stick to beat charlatans with, is in fact just a further source of unhappiness for unhappy people.

And KRAMER --- I think you're doing your job about as well as any human being could do that job. I'm just wondering whether it could be more worthwhile. Hear, hear. When the Challenge section of the forums went up I expected to see a lot more testing and a lot more "legitimate" sounding claims. But, many of the applicants don't even seem to be convinced of their claims themselves and seem to only be applying to have their claims reasearched (DNA non-person, flame wiggler woman, magic rock guy. etc.)

The JREF challenge is a big stick aganst charlatans and woos. But people "in the biz" are obviously going to steer clear of the challenge because of the embarassment and financial implications of losing. So most of the applicants are simple people with shaky claims, no protocol, not even any sure idea of what they can do, that probably have strong delusions and possibly mental illness.

So Kramer spends a lot of his time breaking down the claims of one sinlge woo or nut case at a time--which he has to do to support the challenge. However, he seems to take on issues with people that haven't even submitted a proper application. A noble cause, but it only affects one person at a time--and usually not someone that is out there ripping people off. So perhaps he could refuse to negotiate terms unless a proper application si submitted--perhaps even refers potential claimaints to thes forums for assistance in determining exactly what a person's claim is and what would be an acceptable protocol. That would free up Kramers time for bigger fish.

As I said, the JREF challenge is a big stick and an effective one. Its simple existstance allows ANYONE confronted with a paranormal claim to say, "Well, if it's real, then win the JREF million." That's pretty powerfull stuff. But the stick mostly stands as a flag bearer against paranormal claims and isn't weilded much against charlatans.

So why not be proactive with the challenge? Why not find people that make paranormal claims and send out challenge letters to them? And post the responses (or lack thereof) on this website? Randi did essentially this with Sylvia Brown. Why not others?

Perhaps this could even be expanded to some standard protocols. So JREF could say "we will accept such-and-such protocol as preliminary challenge for dowsers, and this protocol of remote viewing, etc. but will continue to accept (equally controlled) unique protocols if your claimed ability does fit one of these." That might lead to some people finding ways to cheat the standard protocols, but if they are acceptable protocols people should be able to come up with their own protocols to chaet and win anyway (actually I'm suprised some magician hasn't won the prize alreay--maybe they back down when the protocol eliminates their trick but I don't see that much, perhaps they are just to honest to cheat Randi).

I think Kramers time would be better spent challenging the charlatans that rip people off rather than dealing with delusional people on a case-by-case basis. :)

[DevilsAdvocate]

Randi said
As I've said before, give me an out-and-out fraud, and I can handle it; the innocently self-deluded are another matter. I just got to the latest commentary. Seems to me Randi has given Kramer the job of dealing with the "innocently self-deluded" for him. I don't think Randi can handle ALL of the "out-and-out frauds" himself, and I think that having Kramer handle the innocently self-deluded (which even Randi implies are difficult to handle) on a case-by-case basis even when no proper application is submitted is (mostly) a waste of time--or at least not a best use of time.

Randi should have Kramer go after the out-and-out frauds, or at least the "innocently self-deluded" that are ripping people off, hard though it may be. :)

[Kiless]

I was pondering how much more it would cost to seek out these groups to say 'right, are you willing to go for a million, all the kudos, the ensuing fame and fortune, the ability to help more people with your abilities....' etc., etc. I'm under the impression that it would be a significant amount just to coordinate let alone pull it together to make a media broadcast and I'm not certain if this hasn't already been done in the past. Did it work then? Would it be listened to now, since Randi has been around for a while? Would the media just say 'oh, HIM again' and ignore it? :(

Would it be easier to encourage skeptics who are aware of the prize just to do this themselves in a variety of ways? It didn't cost me anything more than five minutes of my time to leave a book and have a conversation with a work colleague who rather strangely announced that the ability of Jesus to walk on water was akin to that of people being able to walk on firey coals.... (yeah, she announced this in front of the whole school.... hades preserve me from jumping up and shouting the title of Penn and Teller's TV series...).

I wouldn't know but wouldn't there be a mound of continually arriving mail from people with questions, let alone the emails? I look at those who post here on a variety of issues and note the number of those who are skeptics and realise that these impassioned posts are from a minority... and therefore the majority who do believe must be massive. I'd be interested in seeing an estimation of the numbers.

At TAMIII, I got the message that it's up to all of us to try to spread the word, no matter how tiny it may seem. Even just not (urgh) signing up for PD courses on Feng Shui that were on offer at my workplace and telling the coordinator why it was a mistake to try and support it in the first place seemed a start. Then I spoke to some others about why I made this choice and they went and said something too. Even just having on my private emails "visit www.randi.org" got me some positive feedback.

Considering the outright tripe that is on TV, I'm not too certain that it wouldn't be an uphill battle just to do media campaigns - besides, there's already some shows out there and one (BS) doesn't even come out here. It has to be a snowball effect coming from a variety of sides, not just through challenging big names or concepts (although it's entertaining to see that happen - such at TAMIII where fire walking was debunked!). One guy in an office wouldn't be enough and it doesn't seem reasonable to request a rewrite of his job description just because the eventual goal is so massive.

[jmercer]

Considering what was said here, I'd really like you folks to consider posting your points of view in this thread:

How to market skepticism (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52119)

:)

[Kiless]

Jmercer, when I have the time to go through all the posts, I shall! :) Thanks.

[Gr8wight]

I think it would be pertinent to point out that charlatans do not apply for the challenge because they are charlatans. They know they have no real paranormal powers. In fact, they probably know, moreso than anyone else, that these powers do not exist.

Those who apply fall into two categories (I imagine): those charlatans who think they are clever enough to fool the JREF, or those who are self deluded into believing their own claims. For the most part, the charlatans avoid any contact with those who might show them for what they are, which leaves Kramer in his unfortunate situation of dealing almost exclusively with the saddest component of humankind.

[Dr Adequate]

An idea: perhaps people should only be eligible for the challenge if they are already making money out of what they claim to be able to do.

I liked seeing Sylvia Browne shot down, but not Dennis44.

[Zep]

Perhaps KRAMER might benefit himself and JREF and the skeptic cause by drafting a standard response letter to these innocently self-deluded people, along the lines of:

1) Please read the rules of the challenge carefully (attached). Those are the rules, not ones you or your friends have thought of.

2) Are you REALLY sure this is what you want to do? You do realise that your claim will most likely not even proceed, and if it does, it will fail badly in public. You will probably be very disappointed all round. And while JREF will never laugh at you or put you down if you fail, many other unkind people will. You must be prepared for disappointment.

3) This is science, not a game or a chance to promote your theories. While JREF will be very fair to you and work with you to test your theories properly, you will not be getting any special favours or bending of the rules at all. That is how science works - JREF accepts that, and you must accept that.

4) It would be a VERY good idea to discuss this decision in detail with someone you trust who is close to you.

5) If you don't want to proceed after all, JREF will respect that completely too.

[DevilsAdvocate]

Originally posted by Zep
Perhaps KRAMER might benefit himself and JREF and the skeptic cause by drafting a standard response letter to these innocently self-deluded people, along the lines of:

1) Please read the rules of the challenge carefully (attached). Those are the rules, not ones you or your friends have thought of.

2) Are you REALLY sure this is what you want to do? You do realise that your claim will most likely not even proceed, and if it does, it will fail badly in public. You will probably be very disappointed all round. And while JREF will never laugh at you or put you down if you fail, many other unkind people will. You must be prepared for disappointment.

3) This is science, not a game or a chance to promote your theories. While JREF will be very fair to you and work with you to test your theories properly, you will not be getting any special favours or bending of the rules at all. That is how science works - JREF accepts that, and you must accept that.

4) It would be a VERY good idea to discuss this decision in detail with someone you trust who is close to you.

5) If you don't want to proceed after all, JREF will respect that completely too. Kramer has already addressed his concerns that JREF NOT respond with standard (impersonal) form responses, and I think that he is right not to do so. Kramer has used these types of responses tailored to specific applicants.

[Skeptical Greg]

With all the " Reality " crap on TV these days, you might think there would be an audience for a show about...

" The JREF Million Dollar Challenge "...



It might be well worth it for someone with an inside connection to the industry to explore this..

[jmercer]

The more I thought about this, the better I liked it. Randi must know people in the industry. Why not send a quick PM to Kramer, have him mention the idea to Randi?

Talk about marketing skepticism. :)

Arthur C. Clarke had his show, it was wildly popular for a while - and it would be nothing as exciting as this would be. There's even a sort of precedent - MythBusters, I think?

[TheBoyPaj]

Is there enough material to fill such a show? I mean, if the posts we have enjoyed so much are anything to go by, precious few claims reach the testing stage and those which do are normally fairly unexciting.

If that woman with the candle flame had ever been tested (not that she would have agreed, in all likelihood) it would have made rather dull TV.

[jmercer]

Good questions - take a look at my posts at the current end of this thread:How does one market skepticism? (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52119)

Most of these reality TV shows are actually pretty slim on content when you get right down to it - most of the show is about building up the tension leading to the actual culminating act, like in "Fear Factor". The audience gets a chance to identify with the contestants in a "personal" way.

I'm thinking that this could be a weekly format with different challengers each week, different claims, etc. Do all the personality stuff at the front of the show... build up expectations... let them take the test (watch 'em sweat!)... then interview them afterwards.

2-3 candidates per show should be more than enough to keep people interested, or one "big fish" like Sylvia could get an episode to herself. (Not that she's likely to actually accept or show up. :D)

[CurtC]

I think even one candidate per show would provide enough material. An example I'm thinking of is the show Wife Swap (which I admit I enjoy) - before each commercial break, they show scenes from the next segment after they return. Talk about stretching out their material! The hour show could easily be cut down to a half-hour.

And the biggest problem the JREF has with testing all these applicants is the time (and therefore money) it would take to do it, but with a network TV show, that wouldn't be an issue. It would still be a very inexpensive reality show.

I really, really like this idea. Who could drive it? Penn Jillette?

I would love to see the guy with the Alien Rock Gemstone Where Did It Come From. And the publicity would draw out more candidates to make a good show out of, thus further spreading the message.

[RSLancastr]

Randi used to have a segment on a show doing much what you describe (I think the show was "That's Incredible").

In one episode I recall, Randi tested a guy who said he could move objects with his mind.

His proof? He could sit, lotus-style on the floor, and with a phone book in front of him, make the pages turn without touching them.

It was pretty obvious from the direction of the book (turned sideways so that the pages would turn up/down rather than left/right) and the only direction he could make them turn (away from him, not towards him) that he was simply blowing on the pages, while holding his mouth in such a way that it did not appear to be open.

He couldn't do it with anything between him and the book (such as a sheet of plexiglass), and when Randi put some styrofoam packing "peanuts" around the book, so that a breeze would easily stir them, the guy claimed that they were causing a static charge which was interfering with his abilities.

I seem to recall Randi saying that the guy made the studio audience sit there watching him for an hour before he finally gave up.

[NoDeity]

Originally posted by TheBoyPaj
Is there enough material to fill such a show? I mean, if the posts we have enjoyed so much are anything to go by, precious few claims reach the testing stage and those which do are normally fairly unexciting.
It seems likely that a TV show would significantly increase the publicity about and interest in the challenge and that there'd then probably also be more claimants.

[jmercer]

Sadly, Mercurtio said Penn spoke about this at TAM3. Turns out they approached the TV folks - to make this kind of show, there has to be at least a 20% payout of the prize, and someone has to win the million.

I think I've got a format for it that will satisfy that particular requirement... but it means that skeptics will have to compete with woo's for the money. I'm going to post it in the other thread after I think it through a bit.

[KRAMER]

Originally posted by Dr Adequate
So the JREF million, which should be a big stick to beat charlatans with, is in fact just a further source of unhappiness for unhappy people.

And KRAMER --- I think you're doing your job about as well as any human being could do that job. I'm just wondering whether it could be more worthwhile.

You are definitely preaching to the choir here, and you definitely have plenty of people here who agree with you.

The problem is that we DO go after these charlatans and frauds, and they don't respond. Indeed, why would they?

Unless of course they're deluded. But, they're not. They're frauds.

They stay as far away from us as possible.

Maybe we should offer SOME of them $1,000 just to be tested.

Nah. That wouldn't do it, either.

[IXP]

Originally posted by KRAMER
Maybe we should offer SOME of them $1,000 just to be tested

Kramer,

This is a great idea. Offer them $1000 just to go through the test, BUT, require that the post the results a link to JREF if they fail. Bet it won't cost you a penny.

IPX

[NiallM]

I've been toying with an idea for a skit - maybe something which could be performed at next year's meeting.

It's a show called "Who Doesn't Want To Be A Millionaire".

In it, a Uri Geller lookalike is asked 15 different questions about why he won't be tested. He has to pick the correct excuse from the options offered. He has the normal lifelines - including a phone a friend to Sylvia Browne, who charges $750 to answer the question. It might be an amusing way to demonstrate all of teh wriggles that the woo-woos use to avoid being tested.

[T'ai Chi]

I appreciate the efforts, but I'm all for more data and less commentary.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by jzs
I appreciate the efforts, but I'm all for more data and less commentary.

What "data" would you like to see more of? How do you suggest we get it?

[tamiO]

Originally posted by NiallM
I've been toying with an idea for a skit - maybe something which could be performed at next year's meeting.

It's a show called "Who Doesn't Want To Be A Millionaire".

In it, a Uri Geller lookalike is asked 15 different questions about why he won't be tested. He has to pick the correct excuse from the options offered. He has the normal lifelines - including a phone a friend to Sylvia Browne, who charges $750 to answer the question. It might be an amusing way to demonstrate all of teh wriggles that the woo-woos use to avoid being tested.

That would make a cute flash movie. If I do it, you'll be credited. :)

[billydkid]

Originally posted by Dr Adequate
KRAMER seems to spend a lot of time dealing with lonely, unhappy people with mental health problems. They come to us.

But I would find the $1,000,000 prize a lot more useful if instead the JREF would seek out the charlatans, and offer them $1,000,000 if they're telling the truth. Any time, on the internet, you can find worthless gadgets costing literally thousands of dollars, which would win the JREF prize if they worked. They make me seethe.

We read occasionally in the Commentaries about Randi personally getting involved, and going after a fraud: but usually nothing. I can post on here all I like about some scam, and nothing happens.

So the JREF million, which should be a big stick to beat charlatans with, is in fact just a further source of unhappiness for unhappy people.

And KRAMER --- I think you're doing your job about as well as any human being could do that job. I'm just wondering whether it could be more worthwhile.

I mentioned something to this effect a while back - I think it was in reference to some woman who was exploiting the suffering of the parents of a missing child. I would like to see the JREF be more proactive in terms of calling these people out and exposing them as the evil bastards they are.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

If the applications for the prize were restricted, consider all the people who would, again, scream that the JREF refuses to test people who might win.

Oh yeah.

~~ Paul

[DevilsAdvocate]

Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
If the applications for the prize were restricted, consider all the people who would, again, scream that the JREF refuses to test people who might win.

Oh yeah.

~~ Paul Paul, maybe I missed something. Who said what about restricting the applications? My thinking was that this was an idea for JREF to spend less time with bozos that haven't even applied and more time with proactively challenging people with publicly stated paranormal claims, which would be less restrictive because the JREF would come to them instead of requiring that they come to the JREF. (If I missed something about restrictions, then I totaly agree that the Challenge should, if anything, be less restrictive.) :)

[KRAMER]

In a concerted effort to spend/waste much less time dealing with potential applicants who may or may not be serious about tendering an application, and to clarify the Challenge rules in detail and head off incessant questions about the Challenge, a Challenge FAQ has been composed and approved by Randi for inclusion on the JREF website. It should be viewable within a day or so.

Much thanks must go to BELETH for getting the ball rolling by putting together a great list of Q & A's, which I then amended for further clarification and purpose.

[Kopji]

I have to say that I sleep a little better at night knowing there are devoted people like Kramer out there. Not wanting to mess up Beleth's excellent FAQ thread, the staff here at Kopji enterprises worked up a preliminary test that might be used to umm, cull out some applicants.


"Wheat from Chaff" (c) Kopji Testing Inc
JREF Selection Test #63

Name & Address:
___________________

___________________

___________________

Instructions:
Please select the best answer for you.
There are no wrong answers so please be honest.

1: You are marooned on a desert island 500 miles from nowhere.
A box floats ashore and you open it. What would you be most happy to find?

A: A thousand dollars cash and a cellphone.
B: Food & Water
C: A gun with a single bullet
D: An autographed, boxed set of sermons by Billy Graham wrapped in fishing line, and a box of matches.
E: Tickets to Sylvia Browne's next reading.

2: It is time for spring cleaning.
A: Your living room is filled with cases of toilet paper bought on sale 10 years ago, but you don't know where to begin.

B: It is all so overwhelming, so you call a psychic to choose the size and color of storage boxes.

C: You move all your old books into the attic, and go buy new books.

D: You pay someone from the Internet to come over and clean your house.

E: You burn your house down and blame the cat, collecting the insurance.

3: When choosing a car color, I...

A: buy a truck instead.
B: always pick red.
C: call my psychic for advice and do what they advise.
D: choose white, and then have it painted later.
E: call my psychic for advice and then argue with him/her.

4: The easiest way to earn a million dollars is...

A: Taking the JREF challenge
B: Winning the lottery
C: Working hard and doing honest work for a living
D: Working hard, then giving up and becoming CEO of Enron.
E: Capturing Bin Laden

5: My last vacation was spent...

A: Helping the tsunami victims
B: At a nude beach
C: In Egypt studying the pyramids
D: In Sedona studying the vortexes
E: I'm unemployed, or never take a vacation



ANSWERS & Scoring: (don't peek!)

Multiple answers score zero because the instructions clearly said to pick one. This excludes answers or doodles handwritten into the margins, which might indicate someone with a PHd (a Harvard or UofA doctor or professor).

Name spelled correctly and legibly is +10 points

1:
B,C, or D are reasonable answers, +10 points for any one.
A and E are just wrong. (So we lied, get over it)

2:
C and E are the most reasonable. +10
B, and D = 0
A = +5 (but you were voted most likely to be a woo by this test)

3:
B, and D are reasonable. +10

A - a truck is not a car color 0 (+10 if you are from Arizona and have never seen a car)

E - only a complete nutjob calls their psychic and then argues with them. -10

C is at least reasonable, even if you are a woo. +10

4:
B is correct +10

5:
E could be correct +10
The rest are probably just lies.
Score +10 for someone who leaves this question blank or writes questions in the margin like "are you idiots?"

A score over 30 indicates you think reasonably enough and can proceed to the JREF testing steps. A score under 30
indicates you are 'reason challenged'. This is not to infer that you are somehow inferior, but we just don't want to bother testing you.