Despite 1700 Palestinians being killed, no Israeli soldiers have been punished

[jay gw]

An Israeli military court has ordered the release of the army commander responsible for shooting to death a young Palestinian girl at point-blank range in the Gaza Strip last year, according to the Israeli press.

Thirteen-year-old Iman al-Hams's body was found riddled with over 17 bullets near an army post in the southern Gaza strip refugee camp of Rafah last October.

The accused commander, identified only as Captain R, was released on Sunday after being confined to an army base for two months. The Israeli army had initially said that Iman was shot because soldiers feared she was carrying a bomb in her book bag as she approached an occupation watchtower in a security zone that overlooks the refugee camp.

But a three-way radio exchange between the officers that was broadcast on Israeli television in November made clear that the soldiers knew al-Hams was a young girl that posed no threat.

The soldiers in the recording immediately identified al-Hams as a girl of "about 10" that was "scared to death". She was shot in the legs nonetheless.

Captain R then shot the wounded girl twice in the head, and "confirmed the kill" by emptying his magazine into her limp body.

He then said he would have killed her "even if she was three-years-old".

The tape also revealed that the soldiers knew Iman was headed eastwards, away from the army post and back into the refugee camp, when she was shot.

Captain R faced only minor charges such as illegal use of his weapons and conduct unbecoming of an officer. Iman's outraged parents have said they want him prosecuted for murder.

The girl was one of 172 children killed in Gaza in 2004 - and one of 644 killed since the start of al-Aqsa intifada in September 2000, accounting for about 20% of Palestinian deaths. But only one Israeli soldier has been found guilty of manslaughter, although some 1700 unarmed Palestinians have been killed since the start of the intifada, according to the Israeli human rights group B'tselem.

That soldier received a punishment of four months in jail and a reduction in rank.

The Israeli rights group accuses the Israeli military of granting impunity to occupation soldiers who kill Palestinian civilians by issuing what they call "offensive sentences".

The Israeli army, they say, has an "intolerable disregard for Palestinian life, as reflected in the open-fire regulations which encourage a trigger-happy attitude among soldiers, and its policy to cover up and refrain from investigating the killing of civilians".

Of the thousands of cases of dead Palestinians, only 90 were investigated by the military police, 29 of which were filed as indictments, resulting in just one conviction.

The group says that new open-fire regulations established at the start of the intifada permit soldiers to shoot at Palestinians in non-combat, non life-threatening situations, as they did Iman.

http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/am/publish/article_10381.shtml

Since the beginning of the al-Aqsa intifada, the IDF has opened only 90 Military Police investigations into Palestinians killed and injured, although soldiers have killed at least 1,694 Palestinians who did not take part in hostilities, including 536 minors. These investigations led to the filing of only 29 indictments.

Only one soldier has been convicted of causing the death of a Palestinian. These statistics are not accidental. Rather, they are a result of the IDF’s intolerable disregard for Palestinian life, as reflected in the open-fire regulations which encourage a trigger-happy attitude among soldiers, and its policy to cover up and refrain from investigating the killing of civilians.

http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp

It strikes me as a little odd that 1700 Palestinians have been killed, no one, but one soldier, in the Israeli army has ever been investigated and found guilty of using excessive force. About 15 Palestinian children, under 18 year olds, are killed each month.

That's a rate of 1 Israeli army investigation and conviction per 1700 Palestinian deaths.

What kind of policy is this?

[jay gw]

*counts hours pass*


Interesting that Americans really don't care to respond to stories about Palestinians. I wonder if Arabs know that?

[zenith-nadir]

How many Palestinians have been punished by the Palestinian Authority for killing Israelis? 0. How many Palestinians have been punished by the Palestinian Authority for killing Palestinians? 0. How many Palestinians have been punished by the Palestinian Authority for killing Americans? 0. How many Palestinians have been punished by the Palestinian Authority for killing Jordanians? 0. How many Palestinians have been punished by the Palestinian Authority for killing Lebanese? 0. How many Palestinians have been punished by the Palestinian Authority for killing Russians? 0.

Perhaps that is why the framing of your thread met without any responses jay gw.

[Cleon]

So, zenith-nadir, do you support the fact that "Captain R" is getting away with murder, or do you oppose it?

No dancing around this with criticisms of the PA, other Arab countries, etc. Do you, or do you not, condemn Israel's policy of letting murderers go free, as long as they're murdering Arabs?

[geni]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
How many Palestinians have been punished by the Palestinian Authority for killing Israelis? 0. How many Palestinians have been punished by the Palestinian Authority for killing Palestinians? 0. How many Palestinians have been punished by the Palestinian Authority for killing Americans? 0. How many Palestinians have been punished by the Palestinian Authority for killing Jordanians? 0. How many Palestinians have been punished by the Palestinian Authority for killing Lebanese? 0. How many Palestinians have been punished by the Palestinian Authority for killing Russians? 0.

Perhaps that is why the framing of your thread met without any responses jay gw.

Can anyone else spot the logical fallacies here?

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by Cleon
So, zenith-nadir, do you support the fact that "Captain R" is getting away with murder, or do you oppose it?Oppose it. Originally posted by geni
Can anyone else spot the logical fallacies here? I can. The assertion that only Israelis should be bound or obliged under the law.

[Cleon]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
Oppose it.

Good.


I can. The assertion that only Israelis should be bound or obliged under the law.

An assertion nobody's made, but people can see that for themselves.

The logical fallacy he refers to is called "tu quoque," and you're rather fond of invoking it as often as possible.

[gnome]

Here's a way of putting it:

If Israel follows the law and Palestine does not, then Israel gets my full support. If Israel does not follow the law either, is it unnatural that my support for them is lukewarm?

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by Cleon
The logical fallacy he refers to is called "tu quoque," and you're rather fond of invoking it as often as possible. Well I look at this way Cleon. If an Israeli soldier is liable for his actions then it follows that under that criteria Palestinian militants should also be liable for their actions. Nothing more, nothing less. If you feel that falls under tu quoque then there is not much I can do about it. I think the guy got away with murder.

Anyhow I don't think it's any big secret that many hold Israel under a different standard than everyone else. I can illustrate that easily... here we have a thread called "Despite 1700 Palestinians being killed, no Israeli soldiers have been punished" while at the U.N. the Security Council passed a resolution against Israel for retiring the spiritual leader of a terrorist organization who sent women and children to blow up inside Israel specifically to murder civilians regardless if they were Israelis, Arabs, Palestinians, Russians, Americans, Bedouins or Martians.

[Cleon]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir

Anyhow I don't think it's any big secret that many hold Israel under a different standard than everyone else. I can illustrate that easily... here we have a thread called "Despite 1700 Palestinians being killed, no Israeli soldiers have been punished" while at the U.N. the Security Council passed a resolution against Israel for retiring the spiritual leader of a terrorist organization who sent women and children to blow up inside Israel specifically to murder civilians regardless if they were Israelis, Arabs, Palestinians, Russians, Americans, Bedouins or Martians.

Israel "retired" a little old man in a wheelchair...By firing a missile into a crowd of people! Whatever you think about Yassin, the way they did is in itself worthy of condemnation.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by Cleon
Israel "retired" a little old man in a wheelchair...By firing a missile into a crowd of people! Whatever you think about Yassin, the way they did is in itself worthy of condemnation. A crowd of people who he used as human sheilds as he moved around Gaza. A crowd of people who supported Sheikh Ahmed Yassin sending women and children to blow up innocent civilians inside Israel. You don't think they knew who he was, what he did or what he stood for?

I don't care if he had one eye, buck teeth, one leg or half an arm... I would have happily pushed the launch button myself.

[edited to add]

Since September 2000, 474 people - the majority of them Israelis - have been killed in 112 Palestinian suicide bombings, most of them carried out by Hamas. link (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/22/world/main607747.shtml) Your poor old man in a wheel chair Cleon was responsible for over 470 civilian deaths....

[webfusion]

from the OP -- What kind of policy is this?


IDF doctrine (http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpage.asp?sl=EN&id=32)

==============================

I'm not sure why zenith-nadir felt compelled to break the deafening silence on this topic. I personally would have preferred that the post remained with zero replies.

The IDF is not above reproach, but the entire OP topic as phrased is despicable, slanted, and inherently not worthy of someone who ostensibly is skeptical and wishes to see things in context.

==============================

Just as a point of clarification, the "intifada" did not begin in Sept 2000, it began in December 1987.

Terror attacks go back much farther than that:
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisrael-3.html

However, in the context of the "intifada" --- An Israeli merchant who was in Gaza on business was stabbed & killed on Dec 6th 1987. The following day, by mere chance, at the EREZ checkpoint, an IDF military vehicle crashed accidentally into a van filled with Gazan workers, resulting in several deaths. Hours later, rumors spread in the nearby refugee camps that the IDF had shot them point-blank in retaliation (revenge) of the murder of the Jewish man. The ensuing rioting got out of hand and IDF troops opened fire to save their own lives against the mobs. This pattern repeated itself from that day on.


Be advised: The Palestinian death toll is not 1700, it is far higher when taking into consideration all fatalities inflicted by IDF beginning that December morning. People have short memories... From December 1987 forward to the present-day, the IDF found itself confronting civilians (intermingled with armed 'fedayyin' intent on overrunning their positions and bases and killing IDF soldiers, both on duty and off-duty). During the first four years of the uprising, more than 3,600 Molotov-cocktail (firebomb) attacks, 100 hand grenade attacks and 600 assaults with guns or explosives were reported against the Israel Defense Forces.

If you look at the raw numbers, it would seem that a lot of "innocent" people are being murdered by IDF troops -- when in fact, there are a high percentage of "combatants" that the IDF targets directly (including the aforementioned islamic 'Osama-wanna-be' zealots who ended up on the receiving end of incoming Israeli Air Force missiles).

Also, from 1989-1992, intra-Palestinian violence claimed the lives of nearly 1,000 Palestinians at the hands of other Palestinians. No trial has ever been held to this day in which anyone stands accused of those murders.

[a_unique_person]

And you just knew that guy was going to be set free all along. After libelling the members of his command for reporting him with being criminals themselves. If you are an Israeli who wants to act morally, you will be attacked for not being a 'real' Israeli.

I used to be a supporter of Israel, till I realised that it was engaged in acts that were just as culpable as those of Palestinians, and these were officially sanctioned. Say what you want about the Palestinians, this is an ongoing, low level war in which children are targetted by both sides, and both sides are determined to tough it out.

As an Israeli women who was interviewed after a suicide bombing, "We are very stubborn, but so are they". She knew what the score was. Both sides know. I just hope that sanity prevails one day.

[Art Vandelay]

Isn't the title of this thread rather dishonest? Wouldn't a better title be "Despite 1700 Palestinians being killed, no Israeli soldiers have been punished. Except for this guy. Plus this other guy. And who knows how many others."

So the current score stands at 1700 to two. And really, what can be said to defend the Israeli position? If someone presents a third person who has been punished, jay gw will just say "Okay, then, that's a rate of 3 Israeli army investigation and conviction per 1700 Palestinian deaths." If someone presents a list of a hundred soldiers punished, he'll just say "That's a rate of 102 Israeli army investigation and conviction per 1700 Palestinian deaths." There's really no practical way to refute his claim, even if it absolutely false (and I have no idea how true it is).

Originally posted by Cleon
Israel "retired" a little old man in a wheelchair...By firing a missile into a crowd of people! Whatever you think about Yassin, the way they did is in itself worthy of condemnation. I think this deserves its own thread:
http://randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52319

[jay gw]

So the current score stands at 1700 to two. And really, what can be said to defend the Israeli position? If someone presents a third person who has been punished, jay gw will just say "Okay, then, that's a rate of 3 Israeli army investigation and conviction per 1700 Palestinian deaths." If someone presents a list of a hundred soldiers punished, he'll just say "That's a rate of 102 Israeli army investigation and conviction per 1700 Palestinian deaths."

So you can present a list of investigations and convictions of Israeli soldiers, convicted of killing Palestinians? Please list them.

If pro-IDF Israelis were not so dishonest, these problems wouldn't be as bad as they are.

They just don't understand that they're creating their own problems.

[Elind]

Originally posted by jay gw
*counts hours pass*


Interesting that Americans really don't care to respond to stories about Palestinians. I wonder if Arabs know that?

You want a response.

1: The Israelis are more efficient at killing than the Palestinians.

2: The Palestinians shoot in the air every time someone buys a new car while children are sent out to play in the streets. Sh*t happens.

3: The Arabs know exactly what Americans think every time they look in the mirror.



Stupid answers perhaps; but so are your comments about a war that usually involves as much deliberate targeting of civilians as conceivably possible, by the Palestinians. Grow up big eyes.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by webfusion
Also, from 1989-1992, intra-Palestinian violence claimed the lives of nearly 1,000 Palestinians at the hands of other Palestinians. No trial has ever been held to this day in which anyone stands accused of those murders. Inter-Palestinian strife causes 16% of deaths - Apr. 13, 2004 (http://www.middleeastinfo.org/article4255.html)
Inter-Palestinian strife causes 16 percent of Palestinian civilian death in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, the Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group (PHRMG), based in Jerusalem, said in a report published in recent days analyzing internal Palestinian violence.The Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group (http://www.phrmg.org/Killed_during_Al-Aqsa_Intifada.htm)

Palestinians Killed During Al-Aqsa Intifada 28/9/2000 till 31/01/2005

Not Related To The Israeli Army

Suicide Bombers = 163
Gunfire = 217
Stabbing = 18
Death in Custody = 6
Killed in the Street = 100
Executed By the PA = 2

Total = 506 Total Palestinians indicted for these murders = 0Originally posted by webfusion
'm not sure why zenith-nadir felt compelled to break the deafening silence on this topic.To Illustrate the hypocrisy.....a Palestinian's life is only worth something when Israel ends it....when the Palestinians end it the silence is deafening.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
Total Palestinians indicted for these murders = 0To Illustrate the hypocrisy.....a Palestinian's life is only worth something when Israel ends it....when the Palestinians end it the silence is deafening.

The issue is, does the IDF ever admit to killing civilians. The answer is 'no'.

The question of whether there is a war going on in which both sides are killing each other is, 'yes'.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
The issue is, does the IDF ever admit to killing civilians. The answer is 'no'.The issue is you and others use Palestinian deaths as trophys. If you were genuine you would waste as much energy hating anyone else who kills innocent Palestinians as much as you do Israel....but you don't...and never will...because you could care less if Palestinians die at the hands of other Palestinians...and that is due to your agenda.

[webfusion]

that the thread was going nowhere, due to the obvious hypocrisy of the OP and it was probable that nobody intended to engage the topic. I meant no disrespect to you ZN, for making a reply. We all know you are making every effort to defend Israel, using facts and references. As it should be...

jay gw is attempting to drag an honorable military organization into the mud, and he asks, as a challenge (as a follow-up to his OP):
"So you can present a list of investigations and convictions of Israeli soldiers, convicted of killing Palestinians? Please list them."

I am a Sergeant (res.) in the IDF Military Police and the task of the Military Courts is twofold:

1. To maintain a standard of legal responsibility for IDF soldiers who open fire in unclear circumstances. Courts-Martials happen every week in bases across the country and inquiries are held all the time with the result that soldiers are routinely sentenced for violation of standing open-fire regs. The IDF prisons are filled with conscripts and reservists who incorrectly handled their weapons (in some cases, being sentenced for merely loading their rifles without being given direct orders to do so -- much less firing at someone!) We even have to account for our ejected spent cartridges when engaged in a fire-fight!!!! I kid you not.

2. To maintain a standard to arrest and detain (not kill) combatants whenever possible. The IDF prisons are filled with thousands of people who were caught in the act of threatening IDF troops. These Palestinians (some as young as 11) were generally attempting to cause serious bodily harm to armed troops! Both 'Megiddo' and 'Ketziot' are overfilled to capacity with these types of offenders.
Israel is now negotiating on how to release 1000 or more of them, and have them sign written promises not to engage in such acts again!

=====================
In the field, soldiers have every right to protect themselves and their positions. I find it absurd in the extreme that you are suggesting that soldiers should sling their rifles over their shoulders and stand there while a mob of 2500 angry people surges towards them, hurling rocks and bottles and steel bars and tossing grenades and firebombs and even firing Kalishnikovs from within the cover of the mob.

I have been there, and it ain't a pretty sight. Especially when you have 28 rounds in the magazine, maybe four spare clips in your ammo vest, and the mob is undeterred by "warning shots" fired over their heads.
Crowd control methods are virtually useless (tear gas quickly dissipates and rubber-clad steel bullets are only valid for 50-yard range: If I have a massive group of angry Palestinians at 50-yards, believe me, I'm going to think long and hard before taking out my live round magazine, to insert one dummy-round and place one cannister of rubber-clads onto the end of my M-16 muzzle, and then fire one wide-dispersion round that is like swatting at a swarm of hornets).

That's why so many Palestinians get killed. They really challenge troops to shoot them! It's like --"ALLA AKBAR, go on, run right up there and throw the Molotov Cocktail, if you get shot, that's OK, you're gonna be a martyr and have 76 virgins and a glorious funeral and your family will be getting $5000 for their loss" (kids especially are led into this mindset, as witnessed by the tragic accidental shooting a few weeks ago of a 10-year old who went into the streets in the middle of a mob-rush at a IDF patrol waving his toy rifle, which looked for all intents to be real)


A report from a recent operation:
"In Qalqilya in the West Bank, an unarmed Hamas man, Maher Abu Sneineh, 28, was shot and killed by undercover Border Police forces. The Israeli plainclothes officers reportedly entered the town in a Palestinian car, latched onto the vehicle of the wanted Hamas man, blocked its path and ordered the man to give himself up. Military sources said the man tried to flee and was subsequently shot and killed.
Military sources said the wanted man who was killed had volunteered in the past to carry out a suicide attack."

And so it goes...

[jay gw]

jay gw is attempting to drag an honorable military organization into the mud,

No. Not true at all.

You don't want to admit that trusting the Israeli government/army is pretty tough when they refuse, almost every time, to investigate and punish their own people.

It doesn't matter if it's a war. It doesn't matter what the causes are. Either you're a real government and army, or you're not. You decide.

If you set your standards like Palestinians do, then you should expect the world to see one side, fighting itself.

Are there any real differences?

[varwoche]

The derailment tactic that occurs anytime Israel is criticised on this forum is no longer amazing. Maybe you guys should consider iconizing or otherwise condensing the wrote apologism -- it's too tedious to read.

[Art Vandelay]

Originally posted by jay gw
So you can present a list of investigations and convictions of Israeli soldiers, convicted of killing Palestinians? Please list them.
Were you even listening to what I said? The central point of my response was that such a list would be useless when it comes to people like you. What would it prove? There's simply no way we can have a meaningful conversation. Any discussion would have to either deal with a miniscule fraction of that 1700, or include so many cases that it would be impossible to deal with them in detail. And even if every single case but one were discussed, your behavior indicates that you would dismiss the rest for that one. You have shown yourself to perfectly willing to move the goalposts however far is necessary, so why should I even bother picking up the ball?

If pro-IDF Israelis were not so dishonest, these problems wouldn't be as bad as they are.
This from someone who shows his thread title to be a lie in his own OP.

[webfusion]

It doesn't matter if it's a war.

Certainly it does. And in this war, the Israeli military has acted with more restraint, more professionalism, more spirit d'corps, more honor and more adherence to International Conventions than any other nation ever has in the history of modern warfare.


Additionally, despite the mutual cease-fire declarations in Sharm el-Sheikh, there were several isolated violent incidents by Palestinian terrorists reported. Several shots were fired by hidden gunmen at an Israeli civilian vehicle travelling to the West Bank settlement of Brakha, near Nablus on Tuesday afternoon. Also, terrorists threw a firebomb and several gunshots were aimed at an IDF patrol that entered the nearby village of Kleel.

Early on Tuesday, IDF forces operating near the Gaza settlement of Gadid were fired upon.

And a teenage suicide attacker was stopped and detained (not killed, detained) at an IDF checkpost Monday.

==================================
Regarding the OP ----
which said R. was "released" from base confinement, but did not mention that the officer was not exonerated, but is still facing a serious tribunal ---
the military prosecutor has run into some issues with his witnesses as the TRIAL against Officer R. continues. Yes, the trial.
Court Martial, if you will...
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/536795.html

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
The issue is you and others use Palestinian deaths as trophys. If you were genuine you would waste as much energy hating anyone else who kills innocent Palestinians as much as you do Israel....but you don't...and never will...because you could care less if Palestinians die at the hands of other Palestinians...and that is due to your agenda.

And that is?

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by webfusion
I meant no disrespect to you ZN, for making a reply. We all know you are making every effort to defend Israel, using facts and references. As it should be... None taken. When I started visiting this board about a year ago it was full of threads like these. One by one I began to engage in them and they have dwindled in number because the rhetoric was unsustainable under the microscope.Originally posted by varwoche
The derailment tactic that occurs anytime Israel is criticised on this forum is no longer amazing. Maybe you guys should consider iconizing or otherwise condensing the wrote apologism -- it's too tedious to read.Sour grapes...I surmise you just miss the good old days of unchallenged anti-Israeli rhetoric at JREF. Originally posted by a_unique_person
And that is?Everyone knows your agenda a_u_p except - it seems - you.

[Darat]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
None taken. When I started visiting this board about a year ago it was full of threads like these. One by one I began to engage in them and they have dwindled in number because the rhetoric was unsustainable under the microscope.Sour grapes...I surmise you just miss the good old days of unchallenged anti-Israeli rhetoric at JREF. Everyone knows your agenda a_u_p except - it seems - you.

The JREF (as far as I know) has never taken any "stance" on Israeli policies; it has however taken a strong stance on at least one person who originated from Israel.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by Darat
The JREF (as far as I know) has never taken any "stance" on Israeli policies; it has however taken a strong stance on at least one person who originated from Israel. Darat I have never stated JREF - as an organization - took a "stance" on Israeli policies. Never, not once in my 2000+ posts. I was refering to posters at JREF who took said stances.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
Darat I have never stated JREF - as an organization - took a "stance" on Israeli policies. Never, not once in my 2000+ posts. I was refering to posters at JREF who took said stances.
you said

"I surmise you just miss the good old days of unchallenged anti-Israeli rhetoric at JREF"

I suggest you may want to consider withdrawing that unconditionally and apologise. You libel the whole organisation with your thoughtless ranting.


nobody challenged anything until super ZN leaped out of the phonebox?..what a legend. Have you told all those who were here before you how ineffectual they where?

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by The Fool
I suggest you may want to consider withdrawing that unconditionally and apologise. You libel the whole organisation with your thoughtless ranting. I will not apologize for I did nothing wrong nor did I ever libel JREF - as an organization - to have anti-Israeli policies. Additionally, I will not do anything that one of the worst offenders of anti-Israeli rhetoric at JREF requires thank you very much.Originally posted by The Fool
nobody challenged anything until super ZN leaped out of the phonebox?..what a legend. Have you told all those who were here before you how ineffectual they where? :slp:

[The Fool]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
I will not apologize for I did nothing wrong nor did I ever libel JREF - as an organization - to have anti-Israeli policies. Additionally, I will not do anything that one of the worst offenders of anti-Israeli rhetoric at JREF requires thank you very much. :slp:
yet you have no problems dismissing those that were here before you arguing in support of Israeli actions as being so ineffectual as to be non existant.... Do you make a lot of friends with that ego?

[Ian Osborne]

Originally posted by The Fool
you said

"I surmise you just miss the good old days of unchallenged anti-Israeli rhetoric at JREF"

I suggest you may want to consider withdrawing that unconditionally and apologise. You libel the whole organisation with your thoughtless ranting.

To be fair, I think it's pretty clear he meant the forums, not the organisation as a whole.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Ian Osborne
To be fair, I think it's pretty clear he meant the forums, not the organisation as a whole.
The statement libels the whole organisation in its sloppy generalisation. The claim that before he arrived, criticism of Israeli actions was unchallenged here is simply the rantings of an egotist...thats ok, there is no rule against having a bloated ego but I'm certainly not going to whistle a happy tune and look the other way while this guy suggests that his arrival changed this forum from being an anti-Israeli propaganda outlet. This is what he is clearly claiming JREF was hosting and through the sloppy choice of wording leaves it open to the interpretation that his fantasy land version of what went on here was condoned by JREF.

"I surmise you just miss the good old days of unchallenged anti-Israeli rhetoric at JREF"

I looked back at the first thread this guy participated in and arguing the case in support of Israeli actions was epepke, rikzilla, renata, ziggurat, cleopatra, Skeptic, mycroft and Ed...any of these people, in my opinion, could hand this egomaniac his hat in a political debate without raising a sweat.......I wonder if these people realise how ineffectual (nonexistant...)they were until ZN rode into town to whip then into order?

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by Ian Osborne
To be fair, I think it's pretty clear he meant the forums, not the organisation as a whole. Of course I did and it is only through disingenuous semantic gymnastics that the fool desires to invoke a case of liable. I draw your attention to the people missing from the fools list...Demon, EJ Armstrong, Capel, Mr Manafizzle, the fool, a_u_p, etc.....

[Ed]

Murder is murder. Killing an innocent with malice aforethought is wrong. Killing a lame old murderous SOB who, with malice aforethought, surrounds himself with innocents (maybe) is a different kettle of fish. I think that one cannot allow a guy like that to hide nor that he somehow be granted immunity because of his thorughly illeagal behavior (in surrounding himself, that is). It is sad that this ploy gets any traction.

It is odd to me, though, that there are no shocked posts about palestinian murderers, or their enablers or those that are the head conspirators not being charged for anything. I guess one cannot expect that kind of behavior from the untermensch so why even raise the issue.
And before I get a bunch of hurumphing, let me point out that, as despicable as killing a schoolkid is, the fact of it's occuring has actually entered the Isreali legal system. Has any murder of a jew entered the Palestinian system? Is there a Palestinian legal system?

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by Ed
It is odd to me, though, that there are no shocked posts about palestinian murderers, or their enablers or those that are the head conspirators not being charged for anything. I guess one cannot expect that kind of behavior from the untermensch so why even raise the issue. I tried to illustrate that and was met with;

Originally posted by geni
Can anyone else spot the logical fallacies here?Originally posted by Cleon
The logical fallacy he refers to is called "tu quoque," and you're rather fond of invoking it as often as possible.Originally posted by varwoche
The derailment tactic that occurs anytime Israel is criticised on this forum is no longer amazing. Maybe you guys should consider iconizing or otherwise condensing the wrote apologism -- it's too tedious to read.Originally posted by The Fool
I suggest you may want to consider withdrawing that unconditionally and apologise. You libel the whole organisation with your thoughtless ranting.:D

[varwoche]

Originally posted by Ed
It is odd to me, though, that there are no shocked posts about palestinian murderers, or their enablers or those that are the head conspirators not being charged for anything. I guess one cannot expect that kind of behavior from the untermensch so why even raise the issue. Why don't you start such a thread? Or, is it your expectation that other members are supposed to be equal opportunity posters? One "anti-Palestine" thread for each "anti-Israel" thread per member? Or should each post contain a qualification "I know that Palestinians are scum bags, but... "?

And then, for the members who are not equal opportunity posters, what's the best tactic? Spam their threads with wrote apologism? Or refute them with evidence perhaps? (What a novel concept.)
And before I get a bunch of hurumphing, let me point out that, as despicable as killing a schoolkid is, the fact of it's occuring has actually entered the Isreali legal system. Has any murder of a jew entered thelestinian system? Is there a Palestinian legal system? Hurumph, though point taken. Point taken long ago in fact. Just let me know where the affadavit is that stipulates all of the bad things Palestinians have done, and I will sign it, if that's the requirement for civilized debate to occur on this topic on this forum.

[Cleon]

Meanwhile, a 13-year-old girl has been brutally murdered, and the resident "Israel uber alles" crowd will barely criticize the Country That Can Do No Wrong for letting her murderer go free.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by webfusion
Regarding the OP ----
which said R. was "released" from base confinement, but did not mention that the officer was not exonerated, but is still facing a serious tribunal ---
the military prosecutor has run into some issues with his witnesses as the TRIAL against Officer R. continues. Yes, the trial.
Court Martial, if you will...
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/536795.html

Yikes! That deserves a little more attention in this discussion.

Key witness: I lied in `confirm kill' case

By Amos Harel

The military prosecution's case against Captain R., who is charged with "confirming the kill" of a 13-year-old girl in Gaza, suffered a severe blow yesterday, when a key prosecution witness told the court that significant portions of his testimony to military police investigators were untrue.

Following the revelation, the judge, Lieutenant Colonel Aharon Mishnayot, ordered R., who has been under "open arrest" at his base, released from arrest and reinstated to the Givati Brigade. He also ordered that R.'s weapon be returned to him.

"There can be no debate over the fact that the dramatic development in the testimony of Lieutenant S., who frankly admitted that he did not tell the truth in the military police investigation, significantly undermines at least the value of this witness's testimony," Mishnayot said.

The defense is now asking the prosecution to withdraw the indictment entirely, but the prosecution apparently intends to continue the trial.

R. is charged with a series of crimes, including illegal use of a weapon and obstructing justice, stemming from the death of Iman Al-Hams near the Girit outpost last October. The girl was killed by Israel Defense Forces gunfire after entering an area near the outpost that Palestinians are forbidden to enter. The incident aroused a public storm, particularly after some of R.'s soldiers told the media that he had "confirmed the kill" at close range after Al-Hams was hit by the initial volley. R. denies confirming the kill at close range and says that the soldiers, and he himself, were unaware that they were shooting at a schoolgirl; they merely saw an unidentified Palestinian with a backpack in a no-go area and assumed that it was a militant.

So what we have here is the results of an ongoing investigation and prosecution. The soldier in question has neither been convicted nor exonerated. Through the investigation we have uncovered evidence that the facts as they were initially presented to the public by the media may not be true, and so conclusions drawn from those facts may not be valid.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Cleon
Meanwhile, a 13-year-old girl has been brutally murdered, and the resident "Israel uber alles" crowd will barely criticize the Country That Can Do No Wrong for letting her murderer go free.

A little bit biased, Cleon? Unwilling to apply presumption of innocence?

If it makes it easier for you to give this soldier an even break, I understand he's Druse, not Jewish.

[webfusion]

It is not easy keeping things square when the material we are handling is liquid Mercury.

By the way, journalist Amira Haas had a lengthy diatribe in the Israeli press today, I hesitate to even quote it since she tends to write with a certain cloying tone, but in the interests of fairness and not wanting to appear as an "Israeli apologist" lacking in critical thinking skills, here it is
FWIW --


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/537863.html
Mahmoud Abbas was instructed yesterday at the summit not to ask whose hands were bloodied with the blood of (civilians). Mohammad Dahlan and Jibril Rajoub are expected not to remember nor remind the Israeli commanders who gave the orders to shoot and blow up and shell and kill civilians, of all the orders that killed and wounded thousands of Palestinians civilians, in the last four years, in the first intifada, in Lebanon, in Qibiyeh*. The Palestinian people are not allowed to ask their leaders why soldiers of the occupation who killed civilians, and their officers, are not arrested and put on trial.

{{{{{{ *Note: Qibiyeh, or Kibiya, was an arab village that suffered casualties at the hands of the jews during Israel's war of independence. (http://www.jfjfp.org/BackgroundS/levy.htm) }}}}}}

================================

Real Time Report from Gaza today:
Gunfire from the Atzmona settlement in the Gaza Strip critically wounded a Palestinian man Wednesday, Palestinian security officials said.
The 22-year-old man was shot in the abdomen while walking near the Atzmona settlement on the border with Egypt, the officials claimed.

The Israel Defense Forces said it is checking the report.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by Cleon
Meanwhile, a 13-year-old girl has been brutally murdered, and the resident "Israel uber alles" crowd will barely criticize the Country That Can Do No Wrong for letting her murderer go free. Because noone has gone free and noone other than the mean old pro-Israelis at JREF bothered to look into the case beyond the original article jay gw posted from a highly-biased website which uses terminology like "Zionist occupiers", "Zionist Terrorism" and "Zionists travel ban" on their home page.

Here's a graphic off the websites home page.

http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/am/publish/boycott_israel.gif

That is why I get so pissed off. You didn't research it, the fool didn't research it, varwoche didn't research it, a_unique_person didn't research it, geni didn't research it and jay gw didn't research it. You'all just jumped on the bandwagon based upon a highly-biased article from a highly-biased website and ran with it.

Maybe I will start posting articles about African Americans from the KKK and Stormfront websites and when you take issue with my lopsided views I will start farting logical fallacies, tu quoque, wrote apologism and accusations of libel out of my ass.

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Mycroft
A little bit biased, Cleon? Unwilling to apply presumption of innocence?


...And the last time you or the other IDF cheerleaders applied the presumption of innocence to Palestinians was when, exactly? It certainly isn't when the IDF fires a missile into a crowd of people coming out of a mosque.

And a 13-year-old girl remains dead, despite your apologetics.


If it makes it easier for you to give this soldier an even break, I understand he's Druse, not Jewish.

Wow. Not only is that comment ignorant, rude, offensive, and royally stupid, you've pretty much established that you're completely unable to discuss anything regarding The Country The May Not Be Criticized without accusing people of anti-semitism. Way to go! Way to stand up for honest debate, civlity, and rationality--by not even pretending to be honest, civil, or rational.

[geni]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
That is why I get so pissed off. You didn't research it, the fool didn't research it, varwoche didn't research it, a_unique_person didn't research it, geni didn't research it and jay gw didn't research it. You'all just jumped on the bandwagon based upon a highly-biased article from a highly-biased website and ran with it.

I jumped on a band wagon? I made no comment on the article whatsoever other than to point out that wider palistian actions are slightly irrelivant to this case.

[varwoche]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
That is why I get so pissed off. You didn't research it, the fool didn't research it, varwoche didn't research it, a_unique_person didn't research it, geni didn't research it and jay gw didn't research it. You'all just jumped on the bandwagon based upon a highly-biased article from a highly-biased website and ran with it. I jumped on exactly zero bandwagons. You are either highly non-observant, or else devoid of intellectual integrity.

[webfusion]

mycroft, where have you seen that the officer R. on trial is a druse? (moslem) --- they serve in the Border Police and tracker units on the Gaza perimeter and are ruthless, utterly brutal in some cases, against palestinians. I served under a druse base commander in gaza a few years back and he would scream and curse (in arabic) at captured palestinians sitting handcuffed, pointing his M16 right at their heads. We all were amazed that he didn't just pull the trigger right then and there, but some soldiers literally pulled him back and calmed the situation. To this day, I never understood what he was so mad about.

True story. One of several incidents I participated in where druse IDF went ballistic on palestinians. It has something to do with their fierce loyalty to Israel and their antagonism towards the palestinians who would destroy her, I was told. It may run deeper than that, who knows, but when you told me the officer who shot that poor girl is druse, a lightbulb came on and I saw the fury in my commander's eyes that day.... and a tear came to my eye just now, mycroft, for that girl and for all the other kids who are just caught in the crossfire ----- it is really so sad, so senseless, look what guys like cleon have turned this into ---- a sport, to defame Israel, to cry foul, to totally ignore that two sides are locked in mortal combat and that people are dying for what? For What?

cleon -- idf cheerleaders? are you insane?
we are following the events with the utmost concern, concern for innocent palestinians, concern for innocent israelis and concern for a way to bring to a stop the mindset that brought us hijacking of commercial airliners as a way to express their frustrations....
you can only wish that if you were threatened with jihad and suicide bombers every which way from Sunday, you had a disciplined and well-trained Army like the IDF by your side.


==============================
edited to add: Real Time Report from Gaza:
The body of a Hamas militant, Hassan Alami, was found Wednesday near the Khan Yunis refugee camp.
Alami's body was discovered with his arms blown off and bad burns on his face and chest, Palestinian doctors said.
Hamas officials said Alami was killed in a "work accident."
(a euphamism for a suicide bomber whose device prematurely exploded while he was preparing it).
Hamas -- you know, like the Boy Scouts, only with TNT.

[Ed]

Originally posted by webfusion
==============================
edited to add: Real Time Report from Gaza:
The body of a Hamas militant, Hassan Alami, was found Wednesday near the Khan Yunis refugee camp.
Alami's body was discovered with his arms blown off and bad burns on his face and chest, Palestinian doctors said.
Hamas officials said Alami was killed in a "work accident."
(a euphamism for a suicide bomber whose device prematurely exploded while he was preparing it).
Hamas -- you know, like the Boy Scouts, only with TNT.

I await the investigation into where he got the explosives and who his associates were.

Sure.

[LTC8K6]

That's why he was released.

It's amazing what happens when you look up info for yourself instead of just believing what others post.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=76567

[Cleon]

Originally posted by webfusion
mycroft, where have you seen that the officer R. on trial is a druse? (moslem)


Druzi are not Muslim. Druze is an offshoot of Islam (so is Bahai, for that matter), but it's a distinct religion.


cleon -- idf cheerleaders? are you insane?
we are following the events with the utmost concern, concern for innocent palestinians, concern for innocent israelis and concern for a way to bring to a stop the mindset that brought us hijacking of commercial airliners as a way to express their frustrations....


Insane? No. Observant. Look at zenith-nadir's posts if you want a good example of "IDF cheerleading." Or look at Mycroft, who implied that I was anti-Semitic (a ridiculous notion in itself) because I lamented that a 13-year-old girl has been killed and her murderer has gone free! Meanwhile, if you criticize the IDF for killing a wheelchair-bound man by shooting a missile into a crowd of people--with NO presumption of innocence for ANY of them, Mycroft--you're a terrorist sympathizer.

You're not concerned about innocent Palestinians, or you'd be outraged that "Captain R" was let go. Instead, we get treated to yet another diatribe about how awful Arabs are and how poor Israel lives in fear all the time.

Meanwhile--I feel I have to point this out again, as it seems lost on some people--a 13-year-old girl is dead, killed by the Country that May Not Be Criticized.


you can only wish that if you were threatened with jihad and suicide bombers every which way from Sunday, you had a disciplined and well-trained Army like the IDF by your side.


And somehow statements like the above aren't IDF cheerleading?

[Cleon]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir

That is why I get so pissed off. You didn't research it, the fool didn't research it, varwoche didn't research it, a_unique_person didn't research it, geni didn't research it and jay gw didn't research it. You'all just jumped on the bandwagon based upon a highly-biased article from a highly-biased website and ran with it.

Actually, I've been following the story for weeks. I just didn't post on it, as I know it would be followed up with accusations of anti-Semitism, comments about how EEVVVILLEE the Arabs are, etc. Much like the OP was.

You're not pissed because people didn't research anything. You post off-the-cuff all the time without having researched jack squat; from Arab contributions to tsunami relief to Yiddish (an oldie but a goodie; I still chuckle over that one).

You're pissed because people are critical of the actions of an IDF officer. You don't care that a 13-year-old girl is dead, unless you can blame Arabs for it. And if someone dares blame the party responsible--"Captain R"--you throw a temper tantrum.

Cope.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Cleon
...And the last time you or the other IDF cheerleaders applied the presumption of innocence to Palestinians was when, exactly? It certainly isn't when the IDF fires a missile into a crowd of people coming out of a mosque.

If the soldier in question had made a career from advocating the shooting of 13-year-old Palestinian-Arab girls, had founded an organizations to do exactly that and had a long and extensive record of public speaking and writing in support of it, I wouldn't give him the benefit of the doubt either.

Originally posted by Cleon
And a 13-year-old girl remains dead, despite your apologetics.

Lots of people are dead from this conflict. None of these people will be brought back by anything said by your or I, nor by any policy adopted by the Palestinian-Arabs, the Israelis, the press, or any NGO or special interest group that takes an interest in these issues.

The issue here is the circumstances of her death. As uncomfortable as it is to contemplate, there are sometimes circumstances where it is appropriate for a soldier to shoot and kill a 13-year-old. We would all like to believe in a world where that is not true, but if we are honest we will recognize that it is.

Originally posted by Cleon
Wow. Not only is that comment ignorant, rude, offensive, and royally stupid, you've pretty much established that you're completely unable to discuss anything regarding The Country The May Not Be Criticized without accusing people of anti-semitism. Way to go! Way to stand up for honest debate, civlity, and rationality--by not even pretending to be honest, civil, or rational.

I have not called you an anti-Semite. That you interpreted my words that way only demonstrates your own ability to jump to conclusions. I am well aware of your Jewish heritage, and I assume you like being Jewish.

You have a long history of objecting to Zionism based on its Jewish nature. IIRC on several occasions you have made statements such as, "not in my name" referring to your own Jewishness. It is my opinion that reflecting on the non-Jewish nature of many of the IDF soldiers reminds us that Israel also inspires patriotism among it’s non-Jewish citizens and reminds us of its multiculturalism.

[webfusion]

but the exact source of the bomb-making materials is hard to track, with so much being smuggled into Gaza from the tunnels through Rafah/Egyptian Sinai ----- If you look beyond the coastline of Sinai, the path leads due north to Lebanese & Syrian ports, where Iranian-backed Hezbollah terrorists are operating under the not-so-concerned eyes of the Syrian Occupation Army in Beirut.

In any case, here is the latest Report From Gaza:

"The Lebanese militant group Hezbollah is trying to recruit Palestinian militants in Gaza for attacks on Israelis in order to sabotage Middle East peace efforts, senior Palestinian officials said Wednesday." (Reuters)


I'll keep an eye open to see what the IDF discovered about the mysterious "shots fired" from the settlement of Atzmona which hit that palestinian guy in the gut. What was he doing just walking around out there in "no-mans land"? (Atzmona is infamous for the 2002 incident when a lone terrorist sneaked in and opened fire & threw grenades against unarmed Torah-studying students, killing 5 and wounding 23).
http://www.education.gov.il/children/page_39_b.htm


By the way, when this Hamas infiltrator was finally stopped by IDF troops (after 20 minutes exchange of fire), his name was added to the 1700 list of "palestinians killed by idf"

Fact.

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Mycroft

The issue here is the circumstances of her death. As uncomfortable as it is to contemplate, there are sometimes circumstances where it is appropriate for a soldier to shoot and kill a 13-year-old. We would all like to believe in a world where that is not true, but if we are honest we will recognize that it is.


Ah, yes, "blaming the victim." How appropriate.


I have not called you an anti-Semite. That you interpreted my words that way only demonstrates your own ability to jump to conclusions. I am well aware of your Jewish heritage, and I assume you like being Jewish.


Then the purpose of your comment is what, exactly? Let's review it again:


If it makes it easier for you to give this soldier an even break, I understand he's Druse, not Jewish.


The implication is rather clear: I don't give him "an even break" because he's Jewish. If that's not an accusation of anti-Semitism, pray tell, exactly what is?


You have a long history of objecting to Zionism based on its Jewish nature.


No. I don't object to Zionism based on its Jewish nature. Never have. I object to it based on its racist nature. Zionism is a political movement, not a religious movement. And it's hardly relegated to Jews, as a sizeable chunk of the Cheerleading Squad here aren't, to my knowledge, Jewish.

[varwoche]

Originally posted by LTC8K6
That's why he was released.

It's amazing what happens when you look up info for yourself instead of just believing what others post.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=76567 I'm not sure who the "you" are who "just believed", nor is it clear why the editorial comment is necessary, seeing as this is a fresh news report. No matter, I'll take the snark so long as it is accompanied by some meat, so thank you for posting this.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by webfusion
mycroft, where have you seen that the officer R. on trial is a druse? (moslem)

I've been following the story for months, I forget where I read it.

[LTC8K6]

The story about Captain R and the girl is false, so why are we still talking about it?

The IDF did indeed shoot her. That is about the only thing that is true about the OP's post.

Captain R did nothing wrong at all.

[LTC8K6]

Varwoche, that bit of snark is because this is a skeptic board.

It wasn't directed at you personally.

Most folks here should have viewed the OP with at least a bit of skepticism and checked up on the story. Particularly due to the nature of the story, the like of which have often turned out to be exaggerated greatly, or just plain completely false.

The French TV crew staging the "murder" by the IDF of a palestinian boy comes to mind immediately.....

[Elind]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir

That is why I get so pissed off. You didn't research it, the fool didn't research it, varwoche didn't research it, a_unique_person didn't research it, geni didn't research it and jay gw didn't research it. You'all just jumped on the bandwagon based upon a highly-biased article from a highly-biased website and ran with it.



Of course that's what they do. It is clear from tone and argument that their objective is not to keep possible violations (which do occur) by "our" side in public view, but to do damage to the principles that "we" stand for, while glorifying those of the other side as being better (regardless of lack of contribution to civilization in any form) or, at best, forced into their situation by "our" horrible societies.

The only reason I still post occassional responses to these self appointed guardians of civilization is that there are new participants to these forums all the time, and if we ignore them someone could get the impression that this is the prevailing viewpoint of this forum. In the worst case they may even draw in more similar jihadist apologist to the discussions and I think we have enough as it is.

[zenith-nadir]

This thread was started using a biased article from a highly-biased anti-israeli website that none my detractors even bothered to look at. I take great offence when I see sources such as palestine-info.co.uk quoted unchallenged, just as an African American would take great offense at JREF threads based upon articles quoted from KKK.com or Killallniggers.com.

And to top that off, these same skeptics completely ignore the obviously racist website source and instead launch into a series of attacks upon me for my opposition to the way the thread is framed. But it goes even further, holding the palestinians up to the same standard as Israelis is a "logical fallacy" and "tu quoque", being against rhetoric at JREF is met with calls of libel, Yassin is no longer the founder of a terror organization which has murdered literally hundreds of innocent men, women and children he is a poor old disabled man in a wheelchair.

And in the end some have the temerity to accuse me of being "devoid of intellectual integrity" .....plaeeeze. And people wonder why I get angry sometimes.

[webfusion]

That's just splitting hairs, cleon, about a druse being a 'moslem' or moslem sect or whatever (It's like me saying he was a shiite and you saying, 'no he was a sunni' ). So what? Up until the mention of this individual not being Jewish, what was the presumption? Ask anyone .... it even startled me.
Beyond that, I can't see what it adds or detracts from my point of druse being somewhat overzealous and maybe inclined to the type of action being attributed to Officer R.

And if he gets acquitted as it now seems likely, his career is likely crushed for advancement, which for an IDF officer, is punishment unto itself, especially for 'military lifers' from the druse community, who look upon their service as more than a "job" and strive for advancement.

Be that as it may, where is the thread leading?
a_u_p defines the discussion here as such:
The issue is, does the IDF ever admit to killing civilians. The answer is "no."

Asked and answered. Form your own opinions.

Next case.

[varwoche]

Originally posted by LTC8K6
Varwoche, that bit of snark is because this is a skeptic board.

It wasn't directed at you personally.

Most folks here should have viewed the OP with at least a bit of skepticism and checked up on the story. Particularly due to the nature of the story, the like of which have often turned out to be exaggerated greatly, or just plain completely false.
No prob, I didn't actually take it personally. Just feeling a bit snarky myself.

[LTC8K6]

I've got the flu, so besides being snarky, I am also a bit dizzy.... :)

[Cleon]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
This thread was started using a biased article from a highly-biased anti-israeli website that none my detractors even bothered to look at. I take great offence when I see sources such as palestine-info.co.uk quoted unchallenged, just as an African American would take great offense at JREF threads based upon articles quoted from KKK.com or Killallniggers.com.

And to top that off, these same skeptics completely ignore the obviously racist website source

It's only "obviously racist" if you assume that any criticism of Israel is racist.

The irony of including such a claim in the same sentence as the word "skeptics" is amusing, if nothing else.


and instead launch into a series of attacks upon me for my opposition to the way the thread is framed. But it goes even further, holding the palestinians up to the same standard as Israelis is a "logical fallacy" and "tu quoque",


The other side of the coin is demanding that Israel live up to the standards it claims to uphold; democracy, human rights, etc.


And in the end some have the temerity to accuse me of being "devoid of intellectual integrity" .....plaeeeze. And people wonder why I get angry sometimes.

Who wonders that? You get angry whenever Israel is criticized. Clear pattern--seems obvious to me. You get angry because you don't like seeing Israel criticized. No need for wonder there.

Meanwhile, Iman Al-Hams, an innocent 13-year-old girl, remains dead.

[Cleopatra]

As a veteran in the Politics Forum and avid flame warrior I need to say that I am disturbed by the way most of you responded to a trollish opening post of the new troll of the forum.

I believe that regardless of our difference,"The Company of the Middle East Conflict Conversationalists" is distinguished by its high intelligence and sense of humor.

We disagree with each other because but we have arrived to the point to know each other pretty well and know which buttons to push.

In fact we enjoy what we are doing.

Please,let's block any little **** that believes that just because we debate fiercly with each other we are easy targets for his attemps in first grade trolling.We are not.

You started debating based on a trollish presumption.

Just my opinion! :)

[jay gw]

You'all just jumped on the bandwagon based upon a highly-biased article from a highly-biased website and ran with it.

It might be a biased site. Are you disputing the facts of the story?

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by jay gw
It might be a biased site. Are you disputing the facts of the story?

You are a troll.

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
As a veteran in the Politics Forum and avid flame warrior I need to say that I am disturbed by the way most of you responded to a trollish opening post of the new troll of the forum.

I believe that regardless of our difference,"The Company of the Middle East Conflict Conversationalists" is distinguished by its high intelligence and sense of humor.

I think you've got the wrong message board, Cleo.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Cleon
I think you've got the wrong message board, Cleo.

LOL Come-on! You know I am right! :)

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by Cleon
It's only "obviously racist" if you assume that any criticism of Israel is racist. I consider websites which have articles like "Israeli doctors dishonour their profession by accepting as legal the torture of Palestinian captives" and "The brutal ugliness of the Jewish Zionist mentality" as racist. You on the other hand do not. I leave it up to the readers to decide who's who in this debate.Originally posted by Cleon
Who wonders that? You get angry whenever Israel is criticized. Clear pattern--seems obvious to me. You get angry because you don't like seeing Israel criticized. No need for wonder there.That fabrication is a ad hom to cover your support of highly-biased racist websites.

[webfusion]

yes, early-on, I made mention of the fact this thread should have remained unanswered

I said: I'm not sure why zenith-nadir felt compelled to break the deafening silence on this topic. I personally would have preferred that the post remained with zero replies.

The IDF is not above reproach, but the entire OP topic as phrased is despicable, slanted, and inherently not worthy of someone who ostensibly is skeptical and wishes to see things in context.

As of now, there is no place to go forward with this ---- Officer R's trial is underway, he will face whatever judgement comes, and we can rest assured that accountability is the norm whenever IDF troops act against regulations and cause a death that is outside the scope of their defined duties in self-defense of themselves & their units and protecting the citizens of the State of Israel from clear and present dangers.

IDF soldiers do not just walk around and shoot people at random just because they happen to feel like it!
Bottom line.

==========================

Update from IDF investigation into the shooting of unidentified Palestinian man near Atzmona, Gaza:

"An Israel Defense Forces source said troops, suspecting an infiltration attempt, had fired warning shots when four Palestinians came within 50 meters of a security fence near the Jewish settlement. They said the Palestinians fled."

[Batman Jr.]

Originally posted by Cleon
Meanwhile, Iman Al-Hams, an innocent 13-year-old girl, remains dead.
Yes, she was a benign girl and it was an injustice that she was killed, but what else can you expect nervous soldiers to do to someone who "threw a bag" at them? I don't know about zenith-nadir's posting habits, but I'm by no stretch of the imagination in love with Israel's politics of occupation. It would be blindly nationalistic to defend everything Israel did, but it would be equally myopic to decry every wrongful action by an Israeli as something deliberate and evil.

[Cleon]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
I consider websites which have articles like "Israeli doctors dishonour their profession by accepting as legal the torture of Palestinian captives" and "The brutal ugliness of the Jewish Zionist mentality" as racist. You on the other hand do not. I leave it up to the readers to decide who's who in this debate.


From Dictionary.com:


rac·ism Audio pronunciation of "racism" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rszm)
n.

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.


The above quotes don't meet the definition of "racism" in any way. Biased, yes, but then, you're highly biased yourself. So am I. It's called "having opinions." It makes you biased. When you launch a website to inform people of your opinions and the reasoning behind them, yes, it's going to be a biased website.

Can't testify to the first, as I don't know what Israeli doctors have or haven't done, but judging from the Zionism in my own family, I'd agree 100% with the second. When you adopt an attitude that God has given Jews, and ONLY Jews, the land of historical Canisraelistine, calling it "brutal ugliness" is benign.


That fabrication is a ad hom to cover your support of highly-biased racist websites.

See, now you're lying again. I never said I supported it.

[webfusion]

jay gw asks: "Are you disputing the facts of the story?"

The fact is a young girl was shot. Tragic, and if you have read my posts, I was even brought to the point of tears in this forum, over an event that happened months ago ....
My own experiences caused me to feel especially sad, at such a waste of a beautiful life, FOR WHAT?

The shooting circumstances remained unclear, and an idf officer "r" was placed in detention, pending outcome of his trial. His trial. Where was that mentioned? Everyone assumed he was set free, no trial, just suddenly charges dropped, until I brought forward a source that is reliable and indicated otherwise.

So, the facts are --- at some point, the military prosecutors and the judges only decided he could be "released" from detention while the trial proceeded.

The trial is still underway, even as we speak.

Furthermore,
As I said already, there are hundreds of IDF soldiers in jail and confined to their bases for vaious infractions of open-fire regs. This is not something you see reported in headlines. Only high-profile incidents make the news.
The IDF treats each case on its merits. Sometimes the Defense Minister (a former IDF Chief of Staff) and even the Prime Minister (a highly-respected warrior of some moral standing) gets involved personally.
This case was not brushed away under the carpet and the "facts" as you presented them are out of context and I repeat -- should not have attracted the attention you got. But, now that the thread has run its course, let's leave it and wait for the next case of Israeli troops killing someone and see what the circumstances are. I can almost certainly assure you the next incident will be along shortly.... trust me on this.

==================================
http://www.haaretz.com/hasite/images/iht_daily/D090205/village_ap
Photo caption:
IDF soldiers treating a Palestinian hurt in a traffic accident involving Israeli and Palestinian vehicles in the West Bank on Wednesday. (© -- AP -- feb 9 2005)

[LTC8K6]

The IDF likely didn't kill Mohammed al-Durra, either. He was made a poster boy over the incident.

Too bad it was staged.

The NYT has finally gotten ahold of the story.


http://www.cnsnews.com/SpecialReports/archive/200501/SPE20050113a.html


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/07/business/worldbusiness/07video.html?pagewanted=all

Edit: I fixed the CNS news link I think.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by Cleon
The above quotes don't meet the definition of "racism" in any way. Biased, yes, but then, you're highly biased yourself.Feel free to go through your shameless mental gymnastics to deny that a website which has articles such as "The brutal ugliness of the Jewish Zionist mentality" is not based upon racist beliefs. It truly boggles the imagination that anyone would even attempt that. One day you will hopefully learn that racism isn't a definition out of a dictionary...but I highly doubt it.Originally posted by webfusion
But, now that the thread has run its course, let's leave it...You are so right.

[Art Vandelay]

Originally posted by varwoche
Why don't you start such a thread? Or, is it your expectation that other members are supposed to be equal opportunity posters? One "anti-Palestine" thread for each "anti-Israel" thread per member? Or should each post contain a qualification "I know that Palestinians are scum bags, but... "?There should be some recognition of Palestinian brutality. Calling the Israelis unconcerned with human life without mentioning the culture of violence that pervades the Palestinian community is simply a gross distortion of reality. It would be like complaining about Northern treatment of prisoners in the Civil War, without mentioning the fact that the Confederacy had a policy of executing any captured black soldiers. The implication is that the brutality of this conflict is somehow confined to the Israeli side, and that's simply dishonest. And there's a difference between posts and threads: a post made to refute a particular point, and which does not address something not under discussion, should not be held to the same standard as the OP, which, by its very nature, sets the areas to be discussed.

Spam their threads with wrote apologism? Misspelling or redundancy?

Originally posted by Cleon
Ah, yes, "blaming the victim." How appropriate.What a dishonest misrepresentation. The point was that the political situation is to blame for her death, not that SHE was.

Meanwhile--I feel I have to point this out again, as it seems lost on some people--a 13-year-old girl is dead, killed by the Country that May Not Be Criticized.Your rampant well poisoning is disgusting. You are trying to create the impression that those that disagree with you do not care about her, and are in fact complicit in her death. And then you repeat your game of pretending that this is about refusing to allow any critism of Israel, rather than responding to a particular criticism.

I could end each one of my post to a reference to a young girl killed by Palestinians, but I'm just not that immature.

[Cleon]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
Feel free to go through your shameless mental gymnastics to deny that a website which has articles such as "The brutal ugliness of the Jewish Zionist mentality" is not based upon racist beliefs. It truly boggles the imagination that anyone would even attempt that. One day you will hopefully learn that racism isn't a definition out of a dictionary...but I highly doubt it.

You know, for a minute there, I thought you were actually going to try and substantiate your claim. I actually gave you the benefit of the doubt.

My mistake. I really should know better by now.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Batman Jr.
Yes, she was a benign girl and it was an injustice that she was killed, but what else can you expect nervous soldiers to do to someone who "threw a bag" at them? I don't know about zenith-nadir's posting habits, but I'm by no stretch of the imagination in love with Israel's politics of occupation. It would be blindly nationalistic to defend everything Israel did, but it would be equally myopic to decry every wrongful action by an Israeli as something deliberate and evil.

Hang on, only one person felt she was a threat. She was being watched, and every other IDF person there was aghast at what happened.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by LTC8K6
The story about Captain R and the girl is false, so why are we still talking about it?

The IDF did indeed shoot her. That is about the only thing that is true about the OP's post.

Captain R did nothing wrong at all.

He was observed, and reported for, emptying a full magazine into a clearly lifeless body.

[Ed]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
He was observed, and reported for, emptying a full magazine into a clearly lifeless body.

That is gross but not murder by a long shot.

Since when did the treatment of dead bodies concern you?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Elind
Of course that's what they do. It is clear from tone and argument that their objective is not to keep possible violations (which do occur) by "our" side in public view, but to do damage to the principles that "we" stand for, while glorifying those of the other side as being better (regardless of lack of contribution to civilization in any form) or, at best, forced into their situation by "our" horrible societies.

The only reason I still post occassional responses to these self appointed guardians of civilization is that there are new participants to these forums all the time, and if we ignore them someone could get the impression that this is the prevailing viewpoint of this forum. In the worst case they may even draw in more similar jihadist apologist to the discussions and I think we have enough as it is.

BS, I have read numerous articles, and this one that is referred to by LT is just lies. The clear inference is that several of the IDF got together after the killing and concocted a story. But there is taped radio commentary of the incident as it happened.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Cleon
Ah, yes, "blaming the victim." How appropriate.

Go back and read it again. I was very carefully neutral in my terms. I did not blame the girl for getting shot.

Originally posted by Cleon
The implication is rather clear: I don't give him "an even break" because he's Jewish. If that's not an accusation of anti-Semitism, pray tell, exactly what is?

As a Jew he would represent the “racist Zionism� you hate. As a non-Jew, he doesn’t. It’s that simple. If he were a soldier in Afghanistan, Iraq or any other conflict in the world, I wouldn’t assume his being Jewish or not would make any difference to you, but he’s in Israel.

Originally posted by Cleon
No. I don't object to Zionism based on its Jewish nature. Never have. I object to it based on its racist nature.

So now Zionism is racism? Cleon, even the anti-Israel United Nations went back on that one.

In any case, what makes it “racist� if not its Jewish nature?

Originally posted by Cleon
Zionism is a political movement, not a religious movement. And it's hardly relegated to Jews, as a sizeable chunk of the Cheerleading Squad here aren't, to my knowledge, Jewish.

Now you’re just babbling. What’s this stuff supposed to prove? You just don’t want to admit I wasn’t accusing you of anti-Semitism.

[Batman Jr.]

deleted

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Hang on, only one person felt she was a threat. She was being watched, and every other IDF person there was aghast at what happened.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
He was observed, and reported for, emptying a full magazine into a clearly lifeless body.

Were these things reported by the same "key prosecution witness" that is now admitting to lying?

Originally posted by a_unique_person
BS, I have read numerous articles, and this one that is referred to by LT is just lies. The clear inference is that several of the IDF got together after the killing and concocted a story. But there is taped radio commentary of the incident as it happened.

Is this something you've acutally heard? Or something that's just reported to exist?

[Ed]

I too think that this thread has run it's course but I would like to make one observation.

The Palestinians get full credit for desensitizing all concerned to role of children in this horrible conflict. It is their philosophy that children are fair game as murderers and victims. While this wasnever policy on the part of the Isreali's, it certainly has been on the part of the other guys.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Ed
I too think that this thread has run it's course but I would like to make one observation.

The Palestinians get full credit for desensitizing all concerned to role of children in this horrible conflict. It is their philosophy that children are fair game as murderers and victims. While this wasnever policy on the part of the Isreali's, it certainly has been on the part of the other guys.

When Israel was created, the inevitable war was always going to harm children.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Mycroft
Were these things reported by the same "key prosecution witness" that is now admitting to lying?



Is this something you've acutally heard? Or something that's just reported to exist?

It's all reports. wtf else can we go on here?

[Art Vandelay]

Ah, the "inevitable" defense. If we allow people to have fair trials, it is inevitable that guilty people will go free to comit crimes. I guess that means that criminals are blameless; it's society's fault for not instituting a police state. I guess the Palestinians just can't help themselves; murdering Israelis is in their nature. Who's the real racist here?

There is nothing inevitable about the current situation. Sure, it was inevitable that there would be conflict immediately following the founding, but more than half a century has passed. Terrorist apologists like to pretend that these are the same war, but they are not.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Art Vandelay
Ah, the "inevitable" defense. If we allow people to have fair trials, it is inevitable that guilty people will go free to comit crimes. I guess that means that criminals are blameless; it's society's fault for not instituting a police state. I guess the Palestinians just can't help themselves; murdering Israelis is in their nature. Who's the real racist here?



Do you always have fun attacking straw men, or do you find it boring and pointless?



There is nothing inevitable about the current situation. Sure, it was inevitable that there would be conflict immediately following the founding, but more than half a century has passed. Terrorist apologists like to pretend that these are the same war, but they are not.

It's the same war, for the same reason.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
It's all reports. wtf else can we go on here?

There are reports and then there are reports.

For example, there were reports in this case that were later admitted to be made up. Those reports are false.

You might also remember reports of a Palestinian-Arab violin player at a checkpoint that sounded pretty damning...until video was actually shown of the event.

A skeptic should question his sources of information. He should wonder where it comes from, if the person who presents it has an agenda or a bias, he should wonder if the information represents an accurate view of events or if the events described are typical.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Mycroft
There are reports and then there are reports.

For example, there were reports in this case that were later admitted to be made up. Those reports are false.

You might also remember reports of a Palestinian-Arab violin player at a checkpoint that sounded pretty damning...until video was actually shown of the event.

A skeptic should question his sources of information. He should wonder where it comes from, if the person who presents it has an agenda or a bias, he should wonder if the information represents an accurate view of events or if the events described are typical.

Except that I knew the reports that exonerated this guy would by coming. Refer: OP.

[Elind]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
When Israel was created, the inevitable war was always going to harm children.

Stop spouting your useless platitudes. Do you really think everyone here is another fool?

Address todays's news instead. It will be interesting (not) to see how you and your cohorts spin it.

"More than thirty mortar rounds and two Qassam missiles fired by Hamas at Gush Katif early Thursday, 48 hours after ceasefire declared at Sharm summit. No casualties. One house damaged."

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Except that I knew the reports that exonerated this guy would by coming. Refer: OP.

I had a pretty good idea too. It seems whenever there is something that makes Israel look really bad, a short while later more information comes out that casts the event in a completely different light. Of course the new information will get much less attention, and many will be left with the misleading first impression.

It's almost as though there were a large number of people who were campaigning against Israel, and were willing twist any event or even lie in order to do it, and these same people found it easy to get the attention of a sympathetic press.

Think of Muhammed Al-Dura or the Palestinian-Arab violin player.

Think of our recent discussion of the school-girl who was killed and how it was just accepted it was done by the Israelis even though those in the area were inactive and not even within line of sight.

When you see so many deliberate falsehoods presented as fact by a willing and unskeptical press, eventually you learn to take it all with a grain of salt.

I have no idea if this sergeant is guilty of this crime or not, and if you’re honest, you will admit you don’t know either. The well of information available to the public has been poisoned by inflammatory rhetoric as the different sides scramble for information that can be twisted to support their prejudices. He will get a trial, and we can hope that those responsible for judging him at this trial have access to better and more reliable information than we do. Maybe those of us who watch, if we really care about the lives of those involved, will look with contempt upon those who want to make of this an excuse to rationalize further violence at a time when peace seems possible.

[Ed]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
When Israel was created, the inevitable war was always going to harm children.

Yes and since it was the western democracies that pushed for that, it is clearly their fault. Anybody but the person that pulls trhe trigger, if they are untermensch.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Ed
Yes and since it was the western democracies that pushed for that, it is clearly their fault. Anybody but the person that pulls trhe trigger, if they are untermensch.

BS.

[webfusion]

Elind posted -- "More than thirty mortar rounds and two Qassam missiles fired by Hamas at Gush Katif early Thursday, 48 hours after ceasefire declared at Sharm summit. No casualties. One house damaged."

In fact, these rounds of light artillery were offered as a retaliatory response for the Palestinian man shot (by whom remains unclear, jewish settlers or IDF) in the stomach ---- this happened recently near Atzmona, as was mentioned earlier by me in the thread ---- the Palestinians insist he was just walking out on the road, and was shot for no reason. That was the ostensible excuse for this particular rocket attack, as I understand the scenario.

The message is clear, there cannot be a cease-fire by the palestinians while IDF continues to shoot people. And the IDF will continue to shoot people to stop them from (potentially) violating the cease-fire. So there will not be a cease-fire, with this tit-for-tat mentality in place.

Perhaps the United States can ask that their small detachment of UN-sponsored forces in Sinai be allowed to enter Gaza and supervise this cease-fire? That's their job, to supervise "disengagement" and since the Egyptians and Israelis aren't really in need of their presence, maybe get the useless UN Disengagement Observer Force (UNDOF) to perform some much-needed work in the Gaza Strip now? If left to their own devices, neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians will honor the cease-fire, IMHO

[jay gw]

Does anyone think that Israeli soldiers are worried, at all, about the consequences of shooting Palestinian civilians?

Why should they be worried? Nobody in the Israeli government seems to care to investigate.

[Cleon]

Originally posted by jay gw
Does anyone think that Israeli soldiers are worried, at all, about the consequences of shooting Palestinian civilians?

Why should they be worried? Nobody in the Israeli government seems to care to investigate.

Because they are Good, Honorable People, and to suggest otherwise is anti-semitic.

[American]

It wasn't 1700, it was 1.7 billion. The same number of muslims Bush has killed since the start of the Iraq war.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Cleon
Because they are Good, Honorable People, and to suggest otherwise is anti-semitic.

You see why I pleaded you to stop feeding the troll?

You got so carried away that you took the comment the empty headed troll made and you turned it to an insult.Why you did it Cleon? To win a point? You see the essence of racism is exactly that; when you connect a series of moral concepts ( positive or negative) with a particular national or racial group.
I have served my military duty and I can't tell if israeli soldiers are Good , Honorable People(the first capital letters can't be coincidental but I won't comment that)but I assure you that they are human beings.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
You see why I pleaded you to stop feeding the troll?

You got so carried away that you took the comment the empty headed troll made and you turned it to an insult.Why you did it Cleon? To win a point? You see the essence of racism is exactly that; when you connect a series of moral concepts ( positive or negative) with a particular national or racial group.
I have served my military duty and I can't tell if israeli soldiers are Good , Honorable People(the first capital letters can't be coincidental but I won't comment that)but I assure you that they are human beings.
excuse me? Who is making the link between the IDF and a particular national or racial group? This is the same tired old line as saying if you are critical of the actions of the American military you are critisizing all americans. You are simply attempting to make the IDF excempt from specific critisism for specific actions. It is you that is attempting to spread that critisism over an entire nation and an entire religion.

The Israeli apologists seem to have no problem turning those they oppose into a homogenous mass lumped in with all of the same nationality or ethnicity and seem to be unable to comprehend that not everyone does this. I don't hold any national or racial group responsible or attempt to apply guilt by association with the actions of a military command. you seem to see the terms "IDF" and "the Jews" as equivalent......you may but I don't.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
You see why I pleaded you to stop feeding the troll?

You got so carried away that you took the comment the empty headed troll made and you turned it to an insult.Why you did it Cleon? To win a point? You see the essence of racism is exactly that; when you connect a series of moral concepts ( positive or negative) with a particular national or racial group.
I have served my military duty and I can't tell if israeli soldiers are Good , Honorable People(the first capital letters can't be coincidental but I won't comment that)but I assure you that they are human beings.

Lets just take an objective, statistical approach. Any war involves atrocities, because it involves people. There are honourable, decent people in their doing their best, and there are homicidal maniacs who are having a great time, killing legally. The fact that not one of the homicidal maniacs, or people who are doing their best and have made a bad mistake resulting in an illegal death, have been brought to account, means that something strange is going on.

Why do you think you were sent off to a 'safe' post, where moral problems would be relatively simple?

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Lets just take an objective, statistical approach. Any war involves atrocities, because it involves people. There are honourable, decent people in their doing their best, and there are homicidal maniacs who are having a great time, killing legally. The fact that not one of the homicidal maniacs, or people who are doing their best and have made a bad mistake resulting in an illegal death, have been brought to account, means that something strange is going on.

Why do you think you were sent off to a 'safe' post, where moral problems would be relatively simple?

You try to distract the attention from what I said. Cleon responded to a comment the troll made and made an ironical reference to the the people who serve in the Israeli Army by judging them in moral terms:
" Good and Honorable" said ironically referring to the Israeli soldiers and went further by pointing out:
" and to suggest otherwise is anti-semitic."

As if he knows what kind of people antisemites are.Personally I know some very good and honorable people that are antisemites.

The troll just wanted to make fun, what is that strong in Cleon to make him make such an insulting comment? I believe that he got very much carried away by this silly discussion that all of you participated and this is what happens when you debate as if you live in East Jerusalem or in a refugee camp or as if you have seen your house being demolished. It's ridiculous when people take personally things that are not personal because they appear as fanatics.

The same stands for you now that you pretend that you don't understand the essence of my post and you attempt to drag the discussion somewhere else.

If this is not what you are doing then I will assume that you second Cleon's unfortunate comment.

[zenith-nadir]

An argument overheard in Gaza while awaiting Abbas's arrival at the meeting...


Hamas militant "I want to be the last martyr killed before the peace"

Al Aqsa militant..."No, I want to be the last martyr killed"

Islamic Jihad militant..."No, I'm going to be the last martyr killed"

Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine militant..."No, I'm going to be the last martyr killed "

Al-Fateh militant.."No, Let me be the last martyr killed before the peace"

Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine militant..."Oh, please, I'm going to be the last martyr before the peace"...

Hizbollah militant..."No, I'm going to be the last Palestinian martyred before the Peace with Israel"

;)

[webfusion]

Nobody in the Israeli government seems to care to investigate {idf shootings of palestiniam civilians}.

jay gw --- still trolling? you appear to like this method, making false statements and then seeing other participants in the discussion smack you down.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/538994.html

I am going to say this once and only once, hopefully you will stop when faced with the truth:

The Supreme Court of Israel (an Israeli Government institution) in a precedent-setting ruling yesterday (Thursday Feb 10, 2005), upheld a damages claim against the state from a Palestinian man, Azam Dahar, who was wounded in the first intifada.

wounded. not killed.

Dahar's claim attributed the firing of the plastic bullets to Captain Yoav, the commander of the force operating at the Jenin refugee camp junction (in the middle of severe rioting), and the claim was directed against both him and the state.

This was a proper trial, brought to the highest levels of the justice system in the State of Israel.

The court rejected the state prosecutor's argument that the incident was an "act of war," ruling that classifying the actions of three of four soldiers charged with dispersing civilian rioters as an act of war "appears far-reaching."

[varwoche]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
And in the end some have the temerity to accuse me of being "devoid of intellectual integrity" .....plaeeeze. Like I said, you are either non observant or else devoid of integrity. I welcome you to demonstrate it is not the latter by correcting the record.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by varwoche
Like I said, you are either non observant or else devoid of integrity. I welcome you to demonstrate it is not the latter by correcting the record. Blah, blah, blah.... semantic gymnastics = :slp:

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Lets just take an objective, statistical approach...

If you're going to take an objective statistical approach, the first thing you need is objective statistics. You don't get those from Btselem or the Palestine Information Center. You go to those sources if you don't care about the accuracy or objectivity of the information you use to support an opinion you've already formed.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by webfusion
jay gw --- still trolling? you appear to like this method, making false statements and then seeing other participants in the discussion smack you down.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/538994.html

I am going to say this once and only once, hopefully you will stop when faced with the truth:

The Supreme Court of Israel (an Israeli Government institution) in a precedent-setting ruling yesterday (Thursday Feb 10, 2005), upheld a damages claim against the state from a Palestinian man, Azam Dahar, who was wounded in the first intifada.

wounded. not killed.

Dahar's claim attributed the firing of the plastic bullets to Captain Yoav, the commander of the force operating at the Jenin refugee camp junction (in the middle of severe rioting), and the claim was directed against both him and the state.

This was a proper trial, brought to the highest levels of the justice system in the State of Israel.

The court rejected the state prosecutor's argument that the incident was an "act of war," ruling that classifying the actions of three of four soldiers charged with dispersing civilian rioters as an act of war "appears far-reaching."

Are you saying this is the first time, and it happened three days ago?

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
When Israel was created, the inevitable war was always going to harm children.

The war wasn't inevitable. The Arabs could have not started it. So far as I recall, they are free moral agents, and they didn't literally HAVE to attack the day-old jewish state, with intent to commit genocide, on three fronts.

I know you sympathize, but surely even you realize that, as tempting as the picture of another genocide of the jews is, it can be resisted in civilized society.

For instance, they could have posted "there is evidence high-ranking zionists control the USA" or "the two-year-olds jews blown up by the suicide bomber were extremists" on the internet, instead, like some people (to use the word loosely) I know.

But what am I thinking? OF COURSE the whole attempted genocide is israel's fault--if it didn't exist, there would be nobody to genocide.

Which is why I think all rapists should be instantly released from prison. After all, it's the victim's fault: had their victim never been born, she could never have been raped, could she?

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Are you saying this is the first time, and it happened three days ago?

I interpret it to mean he didn't have to look far to find an example.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Skeptic
The war wasn't inevitable. The Arabs could have not started it. So far as I recall, they are free moral agents, and they didn't literally HAVE to attack the day-old jewish state, with intent to commit genocide, on three fronts.

I know you sympathize, but surely even you realize that, as tempting as the picture of another genocide of the jews is, it can be resisted in civilized society.

For instance, they could have posted "there is evidence high-ranking zionists control the USA" or "the two-year-olds jews blown up by the suicide bomber were extremists" on the internet, instead, like some people (to use the word loosely) I know.

But what am I thinking? OF COURSE the whole attempted genocide is israel's fault--if it didn't exist, there would be nobody to genocide.

Which is why I think all rapists should be instantly released from prison. After all, it's the victim's fault: had their victim never been born, she could never have been raped, could she?

And, to use your favourite analogy, the RAPE VICTIM didn't have to fight back.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Mycroft
I interpret it to mean he didn't have to look far to find an example.

This line from the quote leads me to read it it differently.



precedent-setting ruling yesterday

[zenith-nadir]

29 November 1947 : UN General Assembly Resolution 181 - Independent Arab and Jewish States passes - In favour: 33 countries, Against: 13 countries, Abstained: 10 countries.

14 May 1948 : The declaration of independence of the State of Israel was publicly read in Tel Aviv.

15 May 1948 : 10,000 Lebanese, 60,000 Syrian, 4,500 Iraqi, 50,000 Egyptian, 60,000 - 90,000 Transjordanian troops and unknown number of Saudi and Yemenite troops invade Israel.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
When Israel was created, the inevitable war was always going to harm children. Anyone with half a brain can read between the lines in a_u_p's thinly-veiled posts. ;)

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
29 November 1947 : UN General Assembly Resolution 181 - Independent Arab and Jewish States passes - In favour: 33 countries, Against: 13 countries, Abstained: 10 countries.

14 May 1948 : The declaration of independence of the State of Israel was publicly read in Tel Aviv.

15 May 1948 : 10,000 Lebanese, 60,000 Syrian, 4,500 Iraqi, 50,000 Egyptian, 60,000 - 90,000 Transjordanian troops and unknown number of Saudi and Yemenite troops invade Israel.

Anyone with half a brain can read between the lines in a_u_p's thinly-veiled posts. ;)

Yes, this a rape analogy. The Arabs were like a woman being raped who fought back.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir


Anyone with half a brain can read between the lines in a_u_p's thinly-veiled posts. ;)
yes...you are correct....what can you see there with this half brain?

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Yes, this a rape analogy. The Arabs were like a woman being raped who fought back. I guess using that logic a_u_p I can start attacking and killing the minorities living in my neighborhood...why?...cuz they don't belong here....they should go back where they came from...etc, etc, etc...

Originally posted by The Fool
yes...you are correct....what can you see there with this half brain? Ironically more than you do with a whole brain.

[webfusion]

especially in Supreme Court cases, trials can start in lower courts, get bumped up to higher courts, eventually being brought before Supreme Court, which in this case, issued a precedent-setting decision, and actually sent the case back to the lower district court for final disposition.

The original trial court was discussing a case that happened in July 1991. That is almost 14 years ago. It was a very well-publicized case, and many people in Israel still remember that specific incident of Azam Dahar, whom witnesses said was shot while an occupant of a car passing through a riot. The soldiers claimed that no car was fired upon, as the intersection was blocked by rioters, and no car could have passed, and they did not shoot at any vehicle.

It was a complicated case, which is why it is precedent-setting, because the Supreme Court decided that the victim was deprived of his ability to gather evidence. The Court reviewed the case, and ruled.

That is a direct contradiction to the assertation of jaw gw that there has never been an investigation or trial.

jay gw or anyone else may claim that the outcome is not to their liking, or that it supports the thesis that soldiers are not (sufficiently) punished, but the fact of the matter is this is one of many cases where the acts of individual soldiers and IDF procedures as a whole are brought into courts.

I didn't offer it as a defense of the IDF, I offered it to show that the thread has gone off the rails totally because jay gw started the topic with a false premise in the OP and continued to add false remarks.

Just as a P.S. -- here is the relevant section that the Supreme Court agreed with:

For his part, the claimant bemoaned the fact that the car in which he had been traveling had not been checked by forensic experts. "If the police and Military Police investigators had used routine scientific methods to investigate shooting incidents... it would have been possible to confirm or contradict the disputed versions," said an expert on Dahar's behalf.

And the ruling said, yes, that is true. The claimant was deprived of this evidentiary proof. The state was ordered to pay $10,000 in trial costs and the lower court will now decide what compensation is appropriate for Mr. Dahar.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Yes, this a rape analogy. The Arabs were like a woman being raped who fought back.

Why you underestimate the Arabs that much?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Why you underestimate the Arabs that much?

All I am doing is using Skeptics favourite analogy. If it fails for being too simplistic, then maybe he should reconsider using it all the time.

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
All I am doing is using Skeptics favourite analogy. If it fails for being too simplistic, then maybe he should reconsider using it all the time.

Heh.

I can see AUP as a defense lawyer:

AUP (in dramatic tones): "Your honor, my contention is that the third witness--this little old lady we heard yesterday--is the REAL murderer!"

JUDGE (puzzled): "Huh? Have you lost your mind?"

AUP (with victory in his voice): "Your honor, ALL I AM DOING is using the same SIMPLISTIC ACCUSATION the prosecutor keeps telling the jury about my client! If HE can compare my client to a murderer, why can't I compare his witnesses to murderers, too?"

JUDGE: "Because your accusation makes no sense?"

AUP: "Well, if the accusation makes no sense, I DEMAND you instruct the prosecutor to stop using it!"

JUDGE: "You're a loony."

AUP: "Racist!"

Frankly, I think AUP is getting a bit desperate. Why his obviously inappropriate use of the rape metaphor is in any way a reason for me to stop using it appropriately, I have no idea. The point behind his post seems to be merely a thinly-disguised attempt at the "Indigo Montoya defense" : "I wish you would stop saying that!"

[demon]

"Skeptic"

"Heh.

I can see AUP as a defense lawyer:

AUP (in dramatic tones): "Your honor, my contention is that the third witness--this little old lady we heard yesterday--is the REAL murderer!"

JUDGE (puzzled): "Huh? Have you lost your mind?"

AUP (with victory in his voice): "Your honor, ALL I AM DOING is using the same SIMPLISTIC ACCUSATION the prosecutor keeps telling the jury about my client! If HE can compare my client to a murderer, why can't I compare his witnesses to murderers, too?"

JUDGE: "Because your accusation makes no sense?"

AUP: "Well, if the accusation makes no sense, I DEMAND you instruct the prosecutor to stop using it!"

JUDGE: "You're a loony."

AUP: "Racist!"

Frankly, I think AUP is getting a bit desperate. Why his obviously inappropriate use of the rape metaphor is in any way a reason for me to stop using it appropriately, I have no idea. The point behind his post seems to be merely a thinly-disguised attempt at the "Indigo Montoya defense" : "I wish you would stop saying that!"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just bloody wonderful!
And for your next trick? How many Palestinian child suicide bombers are you going to pull out of a Yarmulke?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Skeptic
Heh.

I can see AUP as a defense lawyer:

AUP (in dramatic tones): "Your honor, my contention is that the third witness--this little old lady we heard yesterday--is the REAL murderer!"

JUDGE (puzzled): "Huh? Have you lost your mind?"

AUP (with victory in his voice): "Your honor, ALL I AM DOING is using the same SIMPLISTIC ACCUSATION the prosecutor keeps telling the jury about my client! If HE can compare my client to a murderer, why can't I compare his witnesses to murderers, too?"

JUDGE: "Because your accusation makes no sense?"

AUP: "Well, if the accusation makes no sense, I DEMAND you instruct the prosecutor to stop using it!"

JUDGE: "You're a loony."

AUP: "Racist!"

Frankly, I think AUP is getting a bit desperate. Why his obviously inappropriate use of the rape metaphor is in any way a reason for me to stop using it appropriately, I have no idea. The point behind his post seems to be merely a thinly-disguised attempt at the "Indigo Montoya defense" : "I wish you would stop saying that!"

JUDGE: "What am I doing here, where am I?"

AUP: "You poor sod, you're stuck inside a stupid metaphor manufactured by Skeptic".

JUDGE: "Argggghhhhh, help, let me out here".

AUP: "You can get out, but you have to pass the ten challenges. The first one, turn that bunch of strawmen into gold".

[demon]

ZN:
"An argument overheard in Gaza while awaiting Abbas's arrival at the meeting...
Hamas militant "I want to be the last martyr killed before the peace"
Al Aqsa militant..."No, I want to be the last martyr killed"
Islamic Jihad militant..."No, I'm going to be the last martyr killed"
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine militant..."No, I'm going to be the last martyr killed "
Al-Fateh militant.."No, Let me be the last martyr killed before the peace"
Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine militant..."Oh, please, I'm going to be the last martyr before the peace"...
Hizbollah militant..."No, I'm going to be the last Palestinian martyred before the Peace with Israel"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Argument overheard at West Bank Checkpoint by Palestinians:

IDF militant " I want to be the last one to murder a little schoolgirl with my machine gun before the peace"

IDF Major militant "Don`t worry, they will be plenty of time for that after the "peace" "

Mad Colonialist Settler "Good to hear, we don`t plan on being the last of anything"

[zenith-nadir]

I suggest you heed Mark Twain's advice Demon and a_u_p; "It is better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
I suggest you heed Mark Twain's advice Demon and a_u_p; "It is better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."

Go **** yourself.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Go **** yourself. That's the best you got after 10,000+ posts? Yikes. Here's my advice, get on a plane and go to the middle east at least once in your life. Maybe it isn't like what you read in "The Age" or "Electronic Intifada" or "ApartheidIsrael.com" or "jewwatch.com" or "The Guardian"....

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
That's the best you got after 10,000+ posts? Yikes. Here's my advice, get on a plane and go to the middle east at least once in your life. Maybe it isn't like what you read in "The Age" or "Electronic Intifada" or "ApartheidIsrael.com" or "jewwatch.com" or "The Guardian"....

No, you get the worst. You're not even worth that.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Go **** yourself.

:jaw:

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by Mycroft
:jaw:

What did you expect, Mycroft? The mask's falling off a bit, and we're beginning to see the real man...

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Skeptic
What did you expect, Mycroft? The mask's falling off a bit, and we're beginning to see the real man...

The mask never fit too well to begin with, this man radiates hate like heat from a stove. I just like to draw extra attention to it just in case someone missed it the first time around.

[Darat]

GENERAL COMMENT: If you wish to merely insult one another take it to "Flame Wars".


(Edited to add "GENERAL COMMENT".)

[webfusion]

From today's Israeli press:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/555104.html

The trial of Captain R., the company commander from the Givati infantry brigade who was accused of "confirming the kill" of a young girl in Gaza, has faded from the headlines, with casual readers of the press probably convinced he has been acquitted of the killing of 13-year-old Iman al-Hamas.

But the trial goes on, in the small military courtroom in the Southern Command headquarters, and what is gradually being revealed could have far-reaching implications for how the army investigates itself - and whether it should investigate itself.

==========================
This topic deteriorated into meaningless exchanges, but I just wanted to bump it back because the opening post was motivated by an assumption that the IDF is unable or unwilling to investigate, and I wanted to keep the record straight. Just because this thread is old and not being followed, doesn't mean it has no relevence today.

[webfusion]

+bump+

The trial judges have deemed that Captain R is not guilty.

Repeating what I said earlier:
"Just because this thread is old and not being followed, doesn't mean it has no relevence today."

[a_unique_person]

What is the relevance you see today?

[Mycroft]

+bump+

The trial judges have deemed that Captain R is not guilty.

Repeating what I said earlier:
"Just because this thread is old and not being followed, doesn't mean it has no relevence today."

Do you have more information? What were the circumstances they decided he wasn't guilty?

Edited to add: Eh, nevermind. I can google myself.

Gaza girl death officer acquitted

An Israeli army captain accused of firing bullets into the body of a 13-year-old Palestinian girl in Gaza in October 2004 has been acquitted.

Iman al-Hams was shot close to an Israeli watchtower in the southern Gaza town of Rafah when soldiers suspected her of planting a bomb.

...

They also found contradictions in the testimony given by prosecution witnesses during the military trial.

Givati Brigade infantrymen admitted to the court that they had lied to the investigation in order to oust the officer from the company.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4440490.stm

BAD BLOOD

In its verdict, the court noted there had been bad blood between the officer and soldiers under his command which led some of them "to employ various means to bring about his removal from the platoon", an army statement said.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L15726078.htm

[webfusion]

I feel that a story should be followed through to its conclusion, and not be left hanging in the middle. That is the reason I posted to a dormant thread... and the reason I say it is relevent today, no less than it was in February.

[a_unique_person]

that the thread was going nowhere, due to the obvious hypocrisy of the OP and it was probable that nobody intended to engage the topic. I meant no disrespect to you ZN, for making a reply. We all know you are making every effort to defend Israel, using facts and references. As it should be...

jay gw is attempting to drag an honorable military organization into the mud, and he asks, as a challenge (as a follow-up to his OP):
"So you can present a list of investigations and convictions of Israeli soldiers, convicted of killing Palestinians? Please list them."

I am a Sergeant (res.) in the IDF Military Police and the task of the Military Courts is twofold:

1. To maintain a standard of legal responsibility for IDF soldiers who open fire in unclear circumstances. Courts-Martials happen every week in bases across the country and inquiries are held all the time with the result that soldiers are routinely sentenced for violation of standing open-fire regs. The IDF prisons are filled with conscripts and reservists who incorrectly handled their weapons (in some cases, being sentenced for merely loading their rifles without being given direct orders to do so -- much less firing at someone!) We even have to account for our ejected spent cartridges when engaged in a fire-fight!!!! I kid you not.

2. To maintain a standard to arrest and detain (not kill) combatants whenever possible. The IDF prisons are filled with thousands of people who were caught in the act of threatening IDF troops. These Palestinians (some as young as 11) were generally attempting to cause serious bodily harm to armed troops! Both 'Megiddo' and 'Ketziot' are overfilled to capacity with these types of offenders.
Israel is now negotiating on how to release 1000 or more of them, and have them sign written promises not to engage in such acts again!

=====================
In the field, soldiers have every right to protect themselves and their positions. I find it absurd in the extreme that you are suggesting that soldiers should sling their rifles over their shoulders and stand there while a mob of 2500 angry people surges towards them, hurling rocks and bottles and steel bars and tossing grenades and firebombs and even firing Kalishnikovs from within the cover of the mob.

I have been there, and it ain't a pretty sight. Especially when you have 28 rounds in the magazine, maybe four spare clips in your ammo vest, and the mob is undeterred by "warning shots" fired over their heads.
Crowd control methods are virtually useless (tear gas quickly dissipates and rubber-clad steel bullets are only valid for 50-yard range: If I have a massive group of angry Palestinians at 50-yards, believe me, I'm going to think long and hard before taking out my live round magazine, to insert one dummy-round and place one cannister of rubber-clads onto the end of my M-16 muzzle, and then fire one wide-dispersion round that is like swatting at a swarm of hornets).

That's why so many Palestinians get killed. They really challenge troops to shoot them! It's like --"ALLA AKBAR, go on, run right up there and throw the Molotov Cocktail, if you get shot, that's OK, you're gonna be a martyr and have 76 virgins and a glorious funeral and your family will be getting $5000 for their loss" (kids especially are led into this mindset, as witnessed by the tragic accidental shooting a few weeks ago of a 10-year old who went into the streets in the middle of a mob-rush at a IDF patrol waving his toy rifle, which looked for all intents to be real)


A report from a recent operation:
"In Qalqilya in the West Bank, an unarmed Hamas man, Maher Abu Sneineh, 28, was shot and killed by undercover Border Police forces. The Israeli plainclothes officers reportedly entered the town in a Palestinian car, latched onto the vehicle of the wanted Hamas man, blocked its path and ordered the man to give himself up. Military sources said the man tried to flee and was subsequently shot and killed.
Military sources said the wanted man who was killed had volunteered in the past to carry out a suicide attack."

And so it goes...

I would suggest that while you appear to be the type of person who does play by the rules in the IDF, there are others who don't. Such as 'R'. What he did appears to be outside the rules you refer to, his own men appear to agree, but he has been found not guilty.

[Mycroft]

I would suggest that while you appear to be the type of person who does play by the rules in the IDF, there are others who don't. Such as 'R'. What he did appears to be outside the rules you refer to, his own men appear to agree, but he has been found not guilty.

"Givati Brigade infantrymen admitted to the court that they had lied to the investigation in order to oust the officer from the company."

If it makes it any easier for you to consider the evidence and entertain the thought that he may have been found innocent because he is innocent, know that Captain R is not Jewish but Druse.

[luchog]

Since others have resurrected the thread, I'll add a few possibly relevant bits of info.
That's just splitting hairs, cleon, about a druse being a 'moslem' or moslem sect or whatever (It's like me saying he was a shiite and you saying, 'no he was a sunni' ).

The Druse religion is an offshoot of Isma'ili Islam. And like the similar Sufism, it's status as a "true" Islamic faith is, and has long been, debated. It is certainly Islamic in origin, from a sect originally far more militant than most; but along the way aquired bits of various other philosophies, particularly Gnosticism and Greek philosophical systems. Again, much like Sufism. Most of the hardline fundamentalists Muslim sects do not accept either as truly Islamic, and many of the larger ones deny their connection to Islam as well. Much like the Gnostic offshoots of Christianity, they're considered heretical, as was the Isma'ili faith they derived from; and most Druse in the Middle East keep their faith secret out of fear of persecution.

Beyond that, I can't see what it adds or detracts from my point of druse being somewhat overzealous and maybe inclined to the type of action being attributed to Officer R.

You mentioned not understanding their zealousness; but I'm willing to bet that it's the history of persecution and repression through most of the Middle East, particularly Turkey and Lebanon.