Are US troops trigger happy?

[crocodile deathroll]

In the recent incident of the US troops shooting at the car load of woman and children killing 7 of them after they failed to stop after a few warning shots what are your views about US troop trigger happiness. As tragic as this may be it may be understandable after the recent suicide bomb attack the killed 4 US troops

But far more damming IMO is the recent case involving British troops in a freindy fire incident
I am sure some of them are trigger happy I reached that conclusion whan a A10 tank buster aircraft open fired on a British tank that was clearly marked with British insignia and the A 10 even came in for a second go. This smacks of a cowboy culture.

The A 10 incident here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2901515.stm)

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by crocodile deathroll
This smacks of a cowboy culture.

IMHO, this smacks of your distaste for the US coupled with insufficient knowledge/understanding of modern warfare, tactics, logistical difficulties, and rules of engagement.

[Troll]

Damn. Go Wolverine. I was trying to find a decent way of wording stuff, but I have very little respect for this sensationalistic dude and really didn't want it to show in the post.

Thanks for calling him on it.

[Always Free]

Originally posted by crocodile deathroll
In the recent incident of the US troops shooting at the car load of woman and children killing 7 of them after they failed to stop after a few warning shots what are your views about US troop trigger happiness. As tragic as this may be it may be understandable after the recent suicide bomb attack the killed 4 US troops

But far more damming IMO is the recent case involving British troops in a freindy fire incident
I am sure some of them are trigger happy I reached that conclusion whan a A10 tank buster aircraft open fired on a British tank that was clearly marked with British insignia and the A 10 even came in for a second go. This smacks of a cowboy culture.

The A 10 incident here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2901515.stm)

I think you are letting the media do your thinking and research for you. "A cowboy culture" is a phrase I have heard used several times on news reports. And we all know how the media put their own take on anything they are reporting.

I've just been watching the channel Ten news and guess what? They reported no warning shots given to the occupants of the vehicle. So who do you believe? Don't believe any thing you read in the media especially from second and third hand accounts of incidents such as this one.

[Ian Osborne]

Originally posted by Wolverine
IMHO, this smacks of your distaste for the US coupled with insufficient knowledge/understanding of modern warfare, tactics, logistical difficulties, and rules of engagement.

The British troops that were under American fire described the pilot as 'like a cowboy out on a jolly'. Are they also ignorant of 'modern warfare, tactics, logistical difficulties, and rules of engagement'?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Ian Osborne


The British troops that were under American fire described the pilot as 'like a cowboy out on a jolly'. Are they also ignorant of 'modern warfare, tactics, logistical difficulties, and rules of engagement'?



Advanced technology

Lance Corporal Gerrard said: "All this kit has been provided by the Americans. They've said if you put this kit on you won't get shot.

"We can identify a friendly vehicle from 1,500 metres [4,921 ft].

"You've got an A-10 with advanced technology and he can't use a thermal sight to identify whether a tank is a friend or foe. It's ridiculous.



there was special equipment on their convoy, provided by the US.

There is undeniable evidence, from this and numerous other incidents. that the US values it's own above others, even when they are clearly in the wrong. Don't think this is not noticed.

[crocodile deathroll]

Originally posted by Ian Osborne


The British troops that were under American fire described the pilot as 'like a cowboy out on a jolly'. Are they also ignorant of 'modern warfare, tactics, logistical difficulties, and rules of engagement'?

Yes I agree
Some people have the pretty weird ideas of what constitutes "modern warfare, tactics, logistical difficulties, and rules of engagement"

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by Crocodile Deathroll:
Yes I agree
Some people have the pretty weird ideas of what constitutes "modern warfare, tactics, logistical difficulties, and rules of engagement"

Just wondering as to your own expertise in military matters. Have you any? If not then isn't it rather arrogant of you to make judgements on the actions of soldiers in the field?

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by Ian Osborne
The British troops that were under American fire described the pilot as 'like a cowboy out on a jolly'. Are they also ignorant of 'modern warfare, tactics, logistical difficulties, and rules of engagement'?

Of course not, Ian, and you're well aware of the fact that I never insinuated such.

Recognizing that the British soldiers injured in this unfortunate incident have every right to be upset, neither they nor yourself (nor this thread's creator, to whom my prior statement was directed) are in a position to determine the ultimate cause of the accident. While the incident is still under investigation, it's far too early to pass conclusive judgment on its cause or condemn parties involved without having the full data surrounding the incident at our collective disposal.

Attempting to expand the occurence of friendly fire incidents to portray an entire culture in a specific light from a foundation of broad generalizations and emotional appeal reflects flawed methodology, which is dubious at best.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
There is undeniable evidence, from this and numerous other incidents. that the US values it's (sic) own above others, even when they are clearly in the wrong.

There is undeniable evidence throughout history that incidents of friendly fire have been a recurrent problem in times of war. Rather than making an effort to identify root causes or address the complexities of specific incidents, you seem determined to focus your hatred solely on the United States by making consistent, sweeping generalizations with painfully little regard to objectivity or factual information. Don't think that is not noticed.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by crocodile deathroll
In the recent incident of the US troops shooting at the car load of woman and children killing 7 of them after they failed to stop after a few warning shots what are your views about US troop trigger happiness. As tragic as this may be it may be understandable after the recent suicide bomb attack the killed 4 US troops


Ah! the good ol' US of A!! Making enemies and alienating people!

I see Colin Powell (the master diplomat and PowerPoint Presenter extra-ordinaire) has been extending this doctrine to Syria and Iran as well.

Oops! I criticised the US! I must be anti-american!!

/goes to stand in the corner for 20 minutes saying 200 'hail dubyas'

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by Ian Osborne:
The British troops that were under American fire described the pilot as 'like a cowboy out on a jolly'. Are they also ignorant of 'modern warfare, tactics, logistical difficulties, and rules of engagement'?

Originally posted by Jon_in_london:
Ah! the good ol' US of A!! Making enemies and alienating people!

I see Colin Powell (the master diplomat and PowerPoint Presenter extra-ordinaire) has been extending this doctrine to Syria and Iran as well.

Oops! I criticised the US! I must be anti-american!!

/goes to stand in the corner for 20 minutes saying 200 'hail dubyas'

Ah, I see the pot has met the kettle yet again:

When the British paratroop regiment purposely opened fire on unarmed civilians (http://larkspirit.com/bloodysunday)

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Shane Costello
Originally posted by Ian Osborne:


Originally posted by Jon_in_london:


Ah, I see the pot has met the kettle yet again:

When the British paratroop regiment purposely opened fire on unarmed civilians (http://larkspirit.com/bloodysunday)

actually, I think they must have learned something from that, because it hasn't happened again. As for the US, you would think they would have learned by now.

[Drooper]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


actually, I think they must have learned something from that, because it hasn't happened again.

I don't know if I would say that:

Lee Clegg (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/625557.stm)

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
As for the US, you would think they would have learned by now.

Allow me to provide a resource (http://call.army.mil/homepage/fratricide.htm) with which, if you make an effort to study the factual information at your disposal, you might be able to substantially reduce the number of such unbelievably ignorant comments in your posts on this topic.

[crocodile deathroll]

Originally posted by Shane Costello
Originally posted by Crocodile Deathroll:


Just wondering as to your own expertise in military matters. Have you any? If not then isn't it rather arrogant of you to make judgements on the actions of soldiers in the field?

Got shot once and that wasn't much fun

[Reginald]

CD.

Any useful ideas for stopping these friendly fire accidents then in any future conflicts?

[fsol]

If you condemn Lee Clegg then you condemn the American soldiers who opened fire on the Iraqi civilians at the checkpoints earlier today. I think they were just trying to do their jobs in difficult situations.

[Mike B.]

WTF is the point of all these threads?

And why is anyone listening to a word AUP says anymore? He has shown himself to be a bigot on more than one occasion with his constant uses of sterotypes.

I am surprised he didn't tell Shane to get over the "troubles." Just like he thinks the Jews need to get over the concentration camps.

[Drooper]

Originally posted by fsol
If you condemn Lee Clegg then you condemn the American soldiers who opened fire on the Iraqi civilians at the checkpoints earlier today. I think they were just trying to do their jobs in difficult situations.

The American soldiers were operating in a war zone and shot an approaching vehicle that refused to stop.

Lee Clegg and compatriots were operating in a civilian environment where joyriders are rife and opened fire at fleeing car.

edited to add.

I am not passing any judgement on either of these incidents. Both are tragic.

[Reginald]

Originally posted by Mike B.
WTF is the point of all these threads?

And why is anyone listening to a word AUP says anymore? He has shown himself to be a bigot on more than one occasion with his constant uses of sterotypes.

I am surprised he didn't tell Shane to get over the "troubles." Just like he thinks the Jews need to get over the concentration camps.

The point Mike B, IMHO is that having not stopped the war, and having failed to secure (so far) the civilian bloodbath that would allow them to give it the big "We told you so", they have had to resort to sniping at more specific incidents. In a hope that they can divide and conquer.

However playing Judge, jury and executioner to those believed to be responsible BEFORE the full facts are known just highlights that they have suspended their ability to think past their obvious bias.

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by a_unique_person:
actually, I think they must have learned something from that, because it hasn't happened again. As for the US, you would think they would have learned by now.

What was there to learn? The paras were professional soldiers who deliberately opened fire on unarmed, peaceful protestors. They weren't in a warzone. It's disturbing to think anything like it could have happened in the first place, and makes nonsense of the claims of some Brits that their troops enjoy some moral and tactical edge over their American counterparts.

[richardm]

Originally posted by Shane Costello
What was there to learn? The paras were professional soldiers who deliberately opened fire on unarmed, peaceful protestors.


Some of whom might have been shooting at them, however. Did the inquiry ever get to the bottom of it?

[Barkhorn1x]

Originally posted by a_unique_person




there was special equipment on their convoy, provided by the US.

There is undeniable evidence, from this and numerous other incidents. that the US values it's own above others, even when they are clearly in the wrong. Don't think this is not noticed.


Ahhh...UAP - transparent as always. :rolleyes:

If this discussion were, say, on a Paranormal topic you and your ancedotal evidence wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Yet you are quite comfortable posting sweeping generalizations on this forum.
I wonder why that is?? :rolleyes:


And to the rest of you that think the US military is a bunch of trigger happy "cowboy's, as a student of history this war for me is a real eye opener in the sense that it is not much of a war at all. Military casualties - and civilian casualties are so low that a very minor - and regretable - incident at a checkpoint is blasted all over the news.

Friendly fire incidents and dead civilians are a fact in any war one could care to name. The real story in this one - so far - is how few of both have occured.

Get out a history book - start w/ WWII and the D-Day build-up and invasion - and get real.

Oh and please, before anyone posts about the sanctity of every human life - please spare me the sermon and tell it to Saddam Hussein - as I'm not out there killing innocents EVERY day - he is! :mad:

Barkhorn.

[HarryKeogh]

i think that muslim dude who killed a couple of his own soldiers was more trigger happy than any soldier working a checkpoint.

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by richardm:
Some of whom might have been shooting at them, however. Did the inquiry ever get to the bottom of it?

While there was an IRA presence in Derry that day, there's no evidence that anyone in the civil rights march was armed or in any way provoked the paras. There is some question as to whether the British troops were fired on first from flat complexes nearby. Some people claim to have seen Martin McGuinness firing on the soldiers. Nevertheless, professional soldiers should never have mowed down unarmed civilians like the paras did.

For the record, I'm in no way anglophobic or a fellow traveller of Sinn Fein/IRA. I find it puke inducing that Sinn Fein are now taking the high moral ground over the whole Bloody Sunday episode, while ssaying that it's "time to move on" whenever anyone brings up IRA atrocities.

[LTC8K6]

We can identify a friendly vehicle from 1,500 metres [4,921 ft].

Unless it's one of their own Challenger tanks, that is.....

[richardm]

Originally posted by Shane Costello



While there was an IRA presence in Derry that day, there's no evidence that anyone in the civil rights march was armed or in any way provoked the paras.

Really, it just supports your argument that nobody can take the moral high ground - even if there were shots from the flats it's hardly a great idea to start shooting apparently randomly at people in a crowd.

[saddam]

Americans are like frightened school girls with their guns. Poor babies don't want to die, don't want to kill. Ha! This is why Americans cannot beat Iraq. They have no stomachs.

Iraqi men all have guns and love them better than their wives. Iraqis don't worry about safety like the Americans. We have parties and shoot the guns up in the air, just for celebration! Who cares if the bullet hits some bastard in the head walking in the street? Too bad for him! No one lives forever! HAHAHA!

[a_unique_person]

Allies split over battle for hearts and minds
April 2 2003




A schism over tactics is opening between the US and Britain. Richard Norton-Taylor and Rory McCarthy report from Camp As Sayliyah, Qatar.


Cracks are appearing between British and American commanders that have serious implications for operations in Iraq.

Senior British military officers are dismayed by what they see as the failure of US troops to try to fight the battle for hearts and minds. They are also appalled by reports that US marines killed Iraqi civilians, including women and children, as they seized bridges outside Nasiriyah in southern Iraq.

"You can see why the Iraqis are not welcoming us with open arms," a senior British defence source said on Monday.




http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/04/01/1048962756690.html



The British military put the difference in approach down to decades of training as well as experience, first in insurgencies in Malaya, then in Northern Ireland and peacekeeping operations in the Balkans.

Sir Roger Wheeler, former head of the army, points to the "experience, awareness, and skill", particularly important among non-commissioned officers such as corporals and sergeants.

What is striking is the emphasis British military figures put on the differences between their approach and that of the Americans on the ground. They have gone out of their way to draw attention to nervous, "trigger-happy" US soldiers.

US marines in Nasiriyah have said they had asked British troops for instructions on urban warfare. They began using new tactics in operations around the town yesterday when they started searching suburbs block by block.

British military sources are now concerned that the experience in peacekeeping and unconventional warfare of British troops will mean they will be in Iraq long after the Americans have left, even for years, in policing and humanitarian operations.

The concern among military chiefs is that the experience will mean the US will want to get out of places even quicker, leaving the British and others to continue fighting the battle for hearts and minds.

[WildCat]

So AUP, how do you explain this: (http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/04/02/1048962770347.html)
They were battling for a bridge when through the smoke they saw the elderly woman. "We've got to get her off that bridge," shouted Captain Chris Carter. He winced at the risks his men, engaged in a lightning-fast raid for this Euphrates River town, would have to take. The woman had tried to race across the bridge when the Americans arrived, but was caught in the crossfire.
Apparently US soldiers are also taking extraordinary risks to themselves to save innocent Iraqis. Will you then generalize this to stereotype all US soldiers as chivalrous heroes? Nah, that wouldn't jibe w/ your already well known bias against them. And while Iraqi civilian deaths often get widespread media coverage whether reporters were on the scene or not, situations like the one above only get reported in those rare instances it is actually witnessed by said reporters (because in general good news is no news). IMO, scenes like this are far more common than the unfortunate instances you seem to think prove your prejudices.

Edited to add that I meant to post this to the "Is a soldiers life more important than a civilians?" but got them mixed up. This one is similar though!

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by WildCat
So AUP, how do you explain this: (http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/04/02/1048962770347.html)

Apparently US soldiers are also taking extraordinary risks to themselves to save innocent Iraqis. Will you then generalize this to stereotype all US soldiers as chivalrous heroes? Nah, that wouldn't jibe w/ your already well known bias against them. And while Iraqi civilian deaths often get widespread media coverage whether reporters were on the scene or not, situations like the one above only get reported in those rare instances it is actually witnessed by said reporters (because in general good news is no news). IMO, scenes like this are far more common than the unfortunate instances you seem to think prove your prejudices.

Edited to add that I meant to post this to the "Is a soldiers life more important than a civilians?" but got them mixed up. This one is similar though!

yep, soldiers, as individuals, are not evil.

however, for each one of those incidents, there is one of these

Children killed in US assault



Children killed in US assault

Ewen Mackaskill in Washington and Suzanne Goldenberg in Baghdad
Wednesday April 2, 2003
The Guardian

Dozens of Iraqi villagers were killed and injured in a ferocious American air and land assault near the Iraqi city of Babylon, hospital officials in the town said yesterday.
Reuters reporters on the scene confirmed the deaths of at least nine children, two other civilians and two Iraqi fighters at Hilla in a bombardment on Monday night and early yesterday morning.

An Iraqi hospital official said the death toll stood at 33 civilians, with more than 300 wounded.

Unedited TV footage from Babylon hospital, which was seen by the Guardian, showed the tiny corpse of a baby wrapped up like a doll in a funeral shroud and carried out of the morgue on a pink pallet.

It was laid face-to-face on the pavement against the body of a boy, who looked about 10.

Horrifically injured bodies were heaped into pick-up trucks, and were swarmed by relatives of the dead, who accompanied them for burial.

Bed after bed of injured women and children were pictured along with large pools of blood on the floor of the hospital.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,927890,00.html

and as at the checkpoint, procedural errors and training are just as much to blame.

Why was that A10 pilot flying in an area he was not supposed to be?



US Bases (Again)
Just bought the anti-american, but written by an american, book, 'Blowback'. It is about american foreign policy, and the way it has the unfortunate habit of causing terrorist retribution. Written by Chalmers Johnson.

Was interested to note that one of the first issues he discusses is the issue of US bases on foreign soil.

An instance of the problems this causes is mentioned.

The February 1998 incident in which a EA-6B prowler cut the line of a ski lift, killing the 20 people on board the lift.

THe italians for years had complained about low flying jets, they were not to operate under 1,000 feet.

This one was at 360 feet and going at 621 mph.

The pilot had been performing low level acrobatics while the co-pilot videtaped. This tape was later destroyed.

The air force personnel were given a court martial on US soil, and the they were exonerated for a training accident.

Pres Clinton apologised and promised compensation. This aid was opposed by the congress and the pentagon and dropped.