Speaking in tongues...

[pmckean]

So my girlfriend and her sister seem to be increasingly into organised religion. They know my utter skepticism on such matters, but have learned to dismiss me with a beatific smile and the adamant suggestion that one day I will know the truth... er, yeah.

Anyway, both of then go off to a prayer meeting the other day, and when my g'friend comes back, she's crying. Her sister, she tells me, was possessed by the Holy Spirit, collapsed in ecstasy and started babbling in tongues.

Now, I'm inclined not to believe this!

I believe she collapsed and I believe she wasn't faking it. I believe she felt a presence "almost like electricity" pumping through her body - but I don't attribute any of this to spirits (holy or otherwise). It's much likelier, I would conclude, that our amazing powers of suggestion are the culprit here.

So, how can I prove this? It's likely that the speaking in tongues is just utter nonsense, but I'm informed in reverent tones that it is an "old form of Hebrew". I'm prepared to accept that a small amount might actually be Hebrew - as she may have picked up a little of the vocab used by others doing the same thing (it's been going on at this church for years), but I would imagine we're talking about just a few genuine words amongst a cacophony of jumbled verbiage. Most of the babbling will be nonsense, and none of the grammar will pan out.

It's years since I've been able to bear the tedium of a church service, so I'm not going to go there and record this myself, but does anybody know of decent independent research done into these phenomena or attempted translations?

[Bikewer]

Here's the Skeptic's Dictionary article on glossolalia:

http://skepdic.com/glossol.html


As I recall, analysis of glossolalia has shown it to be gibberish, along with "foriegn languages" spoken by people under hypnotic "Past Life Regression" sessions.

The speech may contain fragments of actual foriegn words, or even words themselves. We are constantly exposed to various foreign languages, and retain memories of at least the sounds. Almost anyone can construct "ersatz" languages ala' Sid Ceasar. (Who used to get letters from Germans, Italians, etc. claiming they understood him!)

We can also forget huge segments of language for conscious recall; I can only remember a few words of high-school Latin and Spanish, though I had extensive vocabularies of both.

My wife spoke Polish fluently as a toddler, as the family had a Polish nanny! (She can't remember a word.)

The powerful feeling of "posession", energy, and so forth experienced by many at religious services of this type are normally associated with a number of well-understood psychological phenomena, including hysteria.

[c4ts]

An "old form of Hebrew?" Probably just clearing her throat.

[Bikewer]

I have a suspicion that there is no actual Hebrew language.

Instead, Isrealis speaking in public and in the media merely make a number of gutteral random noises, which by mutual consent everyone appears to understand.
When they're out of the public eye they go back to speaking English, German, French, or whatever.

[RamblingOnwards]

Originally posted by pmckean
So, how can I prove this? It's likely that the speaking in tongues is just utter nonsense, but I'm informed in reverent tones that it is an "old form of Hebrew". I'm prepared to accept that a small amount might actually be Hebrew - as she may have picked up a little of the vocab used by others doing the same thing (it's been going on at this church for years), but I would imagine we're talking about just a few genuine words amongst a cacophony of jumbled verbiage. Most of the babbling will be nonsense, and none of the grammar will pan out.

One of the things you may wish to do is ask her to read the relevant passages about speaking in tongues in the bible to you. Especially 1 Corinthians 14:27,28. (The bit about not saying anything out loud unless an interpreter is also in the room) Ask her how closely these descriptions match what she is doing in her church. Sometimes, that can be enough.

[SwissSkeptic]

Originally posted by Bikewer
I have a suspicion that there is no actual Hebrew language.

Instead, Isrealis speaking in public and in the media merely make a number of gutteral random noises, which by mutual consent everyone appears to understand.
When they're out of the public eye they go back to speaking English, German, French, or whatever.
:roll:

[Wudang]

Originally posted by Bikewer
I have a suspicion that there is no actual Hebrew language.

Instead, Isrealis speaking in public and in the media merely make a number of gutteral random noises, which by mutual consent everyone appears to understand.
When they're out of the public eye they go back to speaking English, German, French, or whatever.

I've long suspected the same about foreign languages. Everyone actually thinks in English and that's why foreigners appear so slow because they have to pause to translate the English into whatever gabble they pretend to be speaking, It's one of the most elaborate practical jokes ever run. Right up there with Idaho.

[Brown]

When I was growing up, I checked out from my church's library a book about the gifts of the spirit. This book reported in a matter-of-fact fashion that there had been several cases of individuals suddenly speaking in languages that they hadn't learned, and that the languages were well known Earth languages such as Russian, Swedish and German. (Some "tongues" are clearly not well known Earth languages, but they are assumed to be languages of angels, dead languages, and the like.)

The book provided no documentation for this extraordinary claim, no citation to references, no details sufficient to permit an independent investigation.

I later learned that the claim was based entirely upon anecdote, and when efforts were made to track down actual people who spoke languages without having to work to learn them, those efforts always fizzled.

There have been numorous studies of the interpretation of tongues, with predictable results. In some denominations, speaking in tongues is always to be accompanied by an interpretation:From 1 Corinthians 14:

14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
...
14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
...
14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.Interpretation of tongues has been tested. There are many instances in which "interpreters" hear the same "words" and have offered disparate "interpretations." There are also many instances in which a single "interpreter," being presented with a recording of the same "words" on two different occasions, provides vastly different "interpretations." There are, to my knowledge, no published studies showing that interpretation of tongues results in consistent messages.

[Zep]

Tell her that her babbling needs to be properly recorded and then examined by a language expert before you will even consider that this was actually what happened. In other words, challenge her to provide the evidence. It should make her consider seriously how much she wants you to believe her, and thus how much she wants to accept what she THINKS has happened.

[Z]

Originally posted by Wudang
I've long suspected the same about foreign languages. Everyone actually thinks in English and that's why foreigners appear so slow because they have to pause to translate the English into whatever gabble they pretend to be speaking, It's one of the most elaborate practical jokes ever run. Right up there with Idaho.

I actually saw an Idaho licence tag on an automobile. And all this time, I thought 'Idahoans' drove potatos.

[voodoochile]

Originally posted by Wudang
I've long suspected the same about foreign languages. Everyone actually thinks in English and that's why foreigners appear so slow because they have to pause to translate the English into whatever gabble they pretend to be speaking, It's one of the most elaborate practical jokes ever run. Right up there with Idaho.

For proof of this all you have to do is watch Star Trek. Even Aliens speak and think in English - well, not the Klingons, but Klingons are merely the exception that proves the rule.

[arthwollipot]

As far as I know, speaking in tongues was where one person could be understood by people who didn't speak that person's language.

During my brief time in church, "speaking in tongues" was generally considered to be the babbling which most posters described, but I did hear one anecdote about a Christian from another country (who could not speak English) was understood by all the English speakers he/she spoke to. But that was only an anecdote. I saw (and heard) people "speaking in tongues" (read: babbling) quite a lot. Heck, I did it myself, but I knew I was babbling.

[sackett]

Originally posted by arthwollipot
...people "speaking in tongues" (read: babbling) quite a lot. Heck, I did it myself, but I knew I was babbling.

I once saw a clip of a man who spoke in tongues in church and who could produce his babble even when the inspiration was turned off. In other words, he could deliberately demonstrate speaking in tongues.

Where I work, I hear nearly a score of languages every day. Time and again, I "detect" meaningful English words and phrases in somebody's speech when in fact the sound signal is 100% non-English. My late father-in-law, one of the great linguists of our time, assured me that this is a common occurence: our minds try to order what our senses deliver. I daresay that some of the "interpreters" who claim to understand hysterical church-babble are honestly deluded. Similarly, people who find speech in random electronic noise are probably kidding themselves, although when they go on to claim that the speech they hear is coming From Beyond The Grave, I have to hide a cruel, cynical, completely uncalled-for smirk

[RamblingOnwards]

Originally posted by sackett
Time and again, I "detect" meaningful English words and phrases in somebody's speech when in fact the sound signal is 100% non-English.

Personally, I find the opposite freakier - when you're not expecting to understand what is said, and you don't - even though the person was actually speaking English.

[richardm]

Originally posted by Wudang
I've long suspected the same about foreign languages. Everyone actually thinks in English

This was confirmed for me when I worked for a company producing software for some Welsh councils. It had to have a "translate" facility so that the screens could display in Welsh or English at the touch of a button.

All the users would use it in English - unless someone else came along, at which point the button would be pressed and the Welsh version displayed ;)

On the topic of detecting meaning in foreign languages; last year I was at a wedding in Norway. I was standing outside with some friends who were having a cigarette break. One of the girls said "Let's go back inside, it's a bit cold". And I replied, "Yeah, it is a bit chilly, let's go". And they all looked at me in astonishment, because she'd spoken in Norwegian which is not a language I understand even slightly.

I guess her body language and/or inflection corresponded to what I was thinking already. Well, it was cold! But it was quite strange all the same :)

[Bikewer]

I saw a brief film clip of two of the top televangelists speaking in tongues to each other. They looked like they were having a lot of fun, what with silly little hand gestures and all.
I can pretty easily speak ersatz German, French, Italian, and Russian; apparently I missed my calling.

[sackett]

Originally posted by richardm
...All the users would use it in English - unless someone else came along, at which point the button would be pressed and the Welsh version displayed ...One of the girls said "Let's go back inside, it's a bit cold". And I replied, "Yeah, it is a bit chilly, let's go". And they all looked at me in astonishment, because she'd spoken in Norwegian which is not a language I understand even slightly....

Can you confirm something for me? I've seen bilingual English/Welsh signs, and I get the impression that it takes one helluva lot longer to express modern concepts in Cwmry. For example, at a Welsh post office, the mail slot is indicated in English, "Deposit Mail Here." Simple, short, colorless. But the Welsh goes on for a paragraph or more, all mllyhwdhms and cimllyllms and wllmghaugs. How are they expressing that simple idea? "Cast in here the written leaf, that the Saxons may convey it at our bidding across the sea's wise waves, to their confoundment and to lift the singing hearts of we, the children of the Milesians!" Or am I being unfair to the taffs?

As for hearing Norwegian, that's not so strange. Norwegian and English are close enough cognates that sometimes a sentence in one will be comprehensible in the other; I'm sure that when you were in Scandinavia you often picked up words you could figure out. In brief, you do slightly understand Norwegian.

I once watched a Karl Dreyer movie (it was a mere nine hours long; well, that's how it seemed) in which at one point the subtitle read, "Come over to us!" as the character on the screen said "Com ofer zu uss!" Danes have told me that he must have been speaking some odd dialect -- but with Karl Dreyer, why not?

[sackett]

Originally posted by RamblingOnwards
Personally, I find the opposite freakier - when you're not expecting to understand what is said, and you don't - even though the person was actually speaking English.
If he's a native speaker, the explanation may be something called phonemic regression: hearing loss at frequencies used in speech. I have it, the product of too many high-powered rifles going off in my ear in my youth. (REAL MEN don't wear earplugs, girly-boy!) In my case, it amounts to nothing more than a loss of high-frequency hearing, but, as luck would have it, modern English depends heavily on th, s, f, sh, wh -- high-frequency phonemes. (I said: REAL MEN don't wear earplugs! Ya listenin' or what?) Thus I can literally and actually hear Turkish and Hawaiian better than I can my native language. Lotta good that does me.

Conversely, I've come to understand much better how language is made of sound, in the most literal sense. I must constantly deal with students from around the world who think they're producing English but who aren't coming close to making the requisite noises -- and like most Americans, I'm dialect-tolerant from pure necessity. The students are all engineers, i.e., simple souls, and I have the damndest time getting them to work on their accents. The English is present in their (usually excellent) brains, so they don't worry much about physically producing it; their mouths are moving, so everything must be okay. Okeh. Oghay. Hokai. Yokee. Woh keh.

But sometimes our minds just don't mesh gears with speech, and that's when wonderful things happen.

[Oleron]

I was told by my church leader (back in the days when I actually attended a church) that speaking in tongues had to be practised!

He was perfectly serious when he said this, in reply to my query regarding this 'gift of the spirit'.
He was explaining to me about the baptism in the holy spirit and the associated gifts when he said something along the lines of "It isn't easy to do at first but keep practising and you'll get the hang of it."

I queried this with him, pointing out that this was supposed to be an overwhelming, irresistible urge, inspired by god himself. Why on earth would someone need to practise it?

He failed to grasp what I was saying.

(Maybe I was speaking in tongues? :D )

[sackett]

My girl friend was raised by missionaries in the remote inner-African country of Tsucania. She still speaks the old language, Tsucanian, when it's necessary to confuse, bamboozle, or otherwise have fun with an offensive person. I understand Tsucanian well enough (linguists call this "passive control") to get a chuckle out of some her remarks. You should see the target person (in more formal terms, the jokee) get angry and pompous when he thinks he's being called a mludji amallah-bamba! (I cannot, I dare not, translate. Forum rules, y'know.)

Yeah, well, you can't prove it ISN'T so!

[Upchurch]

I can't back this up with any sources, but I seem to dimly recall something about "speaking in tongues" sessions generally occuring after extended church services (3+ hours or so) and extended periods of rapid, shallow breating, as would happen from reading aloud or singing.

I may be confusing this with another religious phenomenon. I honestly don't remember for sure. Does this ring a bell with anyone else?

[RamblingOnwards]

Originally posted by sackett
If he's a native speaker, the explanation may be something called phonemic regression: hearing loss at frequencies used in speech.
...

But sometimes our minds just don't mesh gears with speech, and that's when wonderful things happen.

Yes, I meant this and not physical problems - it's usually just a sentence or two, then I realise and can understand them perfectly. I have it in airports if I've spent a few months in a non-English speaking county. You can get interesting responses from people when you apologise for not speaking their language - in their language.

[username]

years ago I attended an apostolic pentacostal church with a friend.

Tongues were a big part of thier faith, it was the sign one had been 'saved'.

When asked I said I had never spoken in tongues.

There was tongues practice at this church to ensure one was still saved. Practice consisted of repeating 'thank you jesus' nonstop for up to an hour.

I did this and about 30 minutes into it my tongue got so tired I started speaking gibberish. I assure you it was no supernatural event. Because I had lost the ability to speak clearly and felt like a fool I stopped to rest my tongue. The woman next to me who was there to help me speak in tongues mildly chastised me for 'resisting the spirit'. She said I was getting the 'gift', but I refused it.

So, I don't have a whole lot of respect for the intellect of those who believe they speak in tongues.

[sackett]

Tongue-speakers sometimes mix incomprehensible words with normal language. In that long-ago documentary about Marjoe, you can hear a man shouting at first in English and then lapsing into something that sounds like speech but isn't.

Extreme examples of speaking in tongues don't really sound like speech to my old ears. They remind me of the way I used to utter "pretend" languages when I was a small child, e.g., imitating the Polish I heard on the radio: non-stop mouth-music just for the fun of it.

V. S. Naipaul, in one of his novels, has an ecstatic believer repeatedly crying, "And Mary lay dong and the child lay dong!" I assume that here he was using something he'd actually encountered.

As for practicing to talk in tongues: How do you say "hypocrite" in Corrected Egyptian?

[Mosquito]

Originally posted by sackett
As for hearing Norwegian, that's not so strange. Norwegian and English are close enough cognates that sometimes a sentence in one will be comprehensible in the other; I'm sure that when you were in Scandinavia you often picked up words you could figure out. In brief, you do slightly understand Norwegian.

Hi,

I have some Norwegian friends and I am a little baffled at the statement that Norwegian and English can have sentences comprehensible in both languages... (Have you ever *heard* Norwegian???) Could you provide me/us with some examples, to impress with? It would be nice if they are sentences that actually mean something useful and would be "normal" for representatives of both languages.

The second part (picking up a few words) I believe, and I think it is a more likely reason for replying "on topic" to the request of going indoors due to cold.

Mosquito

[c4ts]

Gooblaowboblech! Ichelesobo! Ladabosoya!

Baby talk, all of it.

[RamblingOnwards]

If the song adiemus proved anything, it proved that it's actually quite difficult to come up with pleasant sounding words that don't mean anything in any language.

[thatguywhojuggles]

When I was about 12-13, I was living in Bolivia South America because my parents were missionaries. Anyhow, this church group was visiting from the USA and doing some mission work at the school and church where my parents worked. I remember one night, the church group was having a prayer group meeting, or something like that. They invited me to come. They asked me if I had ever spoken in tongues, and I said no. I had heard "speaking in tongues" many times before in our church, but never experienced it myself. The church group was very excited because they believed that on that night I would be filled with the holy spirit.

Anyway, fast forward to later that night, I am on my knees with about 8 people around me, one of their hands touching me, and the other hand outstretched, waving back and forth. Their praying is almost a chanting.

Man am I uncomfortable! I want out. I decide to fake it. They're Americans, they don't speak Spanish. So I start praying in Spanish--a foriegn tongue, I think to myself. One of them looks at me and says, "No, not in Spanish."

I knew at this point I had nothing left to do but fake it comepletely. Otherwise these people would surround me and chant on forever. I had heard "speaking in tongues." I knew what it sounded like. So I mimiced (sp?) what I had heard.

They bought it. Their chanting eventually stopped, and they all congratulated me on being filled with the holy ghost.

I couldn't believe it.

[Achán hiNidráne]

I think I told this tale on another thread, but I'll tell it again since it's on topic: One day, back in college, I was walking around the conference room area of the Student Union when I heard a shouting and screaming coming from one of the rooms. Being an upstanding citizen, I ran to the sound of the screaming to see what aid I could render. I found myself to one of the conference rooms with about a dozen people, some standing by themselves, other in small groups with their hand held up to the air. They were wailing, babbling, and gibbering loudly, throwing in an "Halleluiah" and "hosana" every so often. It turns out that they were the local chapter of Campus Crusade For Christ, and they were in middle of a prayer meeting.

I backed out of the room VERY slowly.

[c4ts]

I sat in on a Quaker silent meeting once. It was the exact opposite of that.

[PixyMisa]

Originally posted by sackett
Can you confirm something for me? I've seen bilingual English/Welsh signs, and I get the impression that it takes one helluva lot longer to express modern concepts in Cwmry. For example, at a Welsh post office, the mail slot is indicated in English, "Deposit Mail Here." Simple, short, colorless. But the Welsh goes on for a paragraph or more, all mllyhwdhms and cimllyllms and wllmghaugs. How are they expressing that simple idea? "Cast in here the written leaf, that the Saxons may convey it at our bidding across the sea's wise waves, to their confoundment and to lift the singing hearts of we, the children of the Milesians!" Or am I being unfair to the taffs?
It's not just Cwglmish. Check out the instruction book that comes with any new electrical appliance. The English translation is almost always the shortest. English is more concise than most other languages, largely as a result of having more words - often other languages will require a phrase to translate a single English word.

[crimresearch]

Originally posted by c4ts
I sat in on a Quaker silent meeting once. It was the exact opposite of that.

You must have caught them on a slow day.

[Achán hiNidráne]

Originally posted by c4ts
I sat in on a Quaker silent meeting once. It was the exact opposite of that.

Heh... I'll say this much for having been Catholic (father's side of family): They practice their faith with a certain amount of dignity. I have been to several Protestant services (mother's-side of the family) and they had the tendency to devolve into three-ring-circuses; laying on of hands, speaking in tongues, and other ceremonies that no self-respecting human (Papist, or otherwise) would participate in.

Not that would go back to the RCC. Goofy beliefs are no less goofy even if you're quiet about them.

[thatguywhojuggles]

Originally posted by c4ts
I sat in on a Quaker silent meeting once. It was the exact opposite of that.

I did as well. It was nice. Only one person spoke, and he was going on about evironmental issues--it seemed.

But I enjoyed the silence.

[hodgy]

One of the girls said "Let's go back inside, it's a bit cold". And I replied, "Yeah, it is a bit chilly, let's go". And they all looked at me in astonishment, because she'd spoken in Norwegian which is not a language I understand even slightly.


Norwegian is not that disimilar to English, particularly when we are talking about basic language like 'I am cold' (very proto-Germanic). Also, as you say, the gestures help.

[Charlie in Dayton]

From what I remember of the teachings of the good Sisters of Notre Dame (yes, I survived Catholic school), it was the other way around. The apostles at first and then eventually others who Spread The Word were able to speak so that all men could understand them (what, women weren't allowed to hear The Word in them there days?). It wasn't that no one could understand, everybody could, and no interpreter needed.

And what happens when the interpreter and the speaker don't agree? How do you sing "Let's Call The Whole Thing Off" when under the 'influence' of The Spirit?

[Ladewig]

Originally posted by pmckean
Anyway, both of then go off to a prayer meeting the other day, and when my g'friend comes back, she's crying. Her sister, she tells me, was possessed by the Holy Spirit, collapsed in ecstasy and started babbling in tongues.



Why was your girlfriend crying terars of happiness or tears of sorrow?

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by Zep
Tell her that her babbling needs to be properly recorded and then examined by a language expert before you will even consider that this was actually what happened. In other words, challenge her to provide the evidence. It should make her consider seriously how much she wants you to believe her, and thus how much she wants to accept what she THINKS has happened.

To my way of thinking, this is the only real answer.

Let's face one fact about "speaking in tongues." It's nothing more than some hoodoo that makes you feel better about yourself, that somehow, you're one of the "ins," but when the babbling stops, ask yourself: what has been gained by anyone else? Have you edified or uplifted anyone else by spewing this gibberish all over creation? No. Have you solved any problems with this? No. All you've done is made yourself and the rest of your congregation look like imbeciles.

[Achán hiNidráne]

Originally posted by pmckean

Anyway, both of then go off to a prayer meeting the other day, and when my g'friend comes back, she's crying. Her sister, she tells me, was possessed by the Holy Spirit, collapsed in ecstasy and started babbling in tongues.

She was having an episode! Put a tounge under her wallet! Oh wait...

[arthwollipot]

Originally posted by Roadtoad
To my way of thinking, this is the only real answer.

Let's face one fact about "speaking in tongues." It's nothing more than some hoodoo that makes you feel better about yourself, that somehow, you're one of the "ins," but when the babbling stops, ask yourself: what has been gained by anyone else? Have you edified or uplifted anyone else by spewing this gibberish all over creation? No. Have you solved any problems with this? No. All you've done is made yourself and the rest of your congregation look like imbeciles.

Speaking as someone who escaped from an extremely glossolaliaphilic church (is that even a word!?), I wholeheartedly agree with this. I was an outsider until I started babbling, then they took me in and initiated me into the Inner Secrets.

Well, not quite. But it felt a bit like that.

[EdipisReks]

if you watch ther religious channels late at night, you will sometimes see huge church services (it has to be 50k people in the stands), with a three ring circus kind of preacher. running around, screaming, singing, and eventually breaking into "tongues". apparently, the language of god sounds like "walla balla halla jalla dalla bong bing balla walla talla". man, maybe i could get a job as a preacher! "ooh ee, ooh ah ah, ting tang, walla walla bing bang" should get the job done.

of course, it's always possible that the people are speaking babylonian. maybe they got an email attachment that was apparently a video clip of static right before the episode of "speaking in tongues". look out for huge aleuts with glass knives the next time you hear someone speaking in tongues ;)

[maddafinga]

Originally posted by EdipisReks
if you watch ther religious channels late at night, you will sometimes see huge church services (it has to be 50k people in the stands), with a three ring circus kind of preacher. running around, screaming, singing, and eventually breaking into "tongues". apparently, the language of god sounds like "walla balla halla jalla dalla bong bing balla walla talla". man, maybe i could get a job as a preacher! "ooh ee, ooh ah ah, ting tang, walla walla bing bang" should get the job done.

of course, it's always possible that the people are speaking babylonian. maybe they got an email attachment that was apparently a video clip of static right before the episode of "speaking in tongues". look out for huge aleuts with glass knives the next time you hear someone speaking in tongues ;)

Brilliant!

I love that book, now I'll have to start reading it again tonight, I'll start as soon as I get this tattoo off my forehead.