One for the bioelectromagnetics fans...

[Mercutio]

I got a magazine in the mail today; either a sibling thought I would like it, or the publishers are trying to tempt me with a free issue. I hope it is the latter. Anyway...on the cover (though not the cover story) is "Magnet Medicine: A new way of healing in the 21st century"

Anyway, here is the online version of the article. (http://www.odemagazine.com/article.php?aID=4046&l=en) The cool thing is, there is a feedback area immediately following this online version. So far, all rave reviews. Not one critical review...perhaps we could change that....*innocent look*

an excerpt:
When Russian cosmonauts first spent long periods of time on board the Mir space station, they got sick. Their symptoms indicated this was more than a simple lack of exercise, too much zero gravity or an overdose of canned food. Their illnesses appeared to be caused by a lack of contact with the magnetic field surrounding the earth. After the Russian space station was equipped with a special “magnetism generator�, the cosmonauts’ symptoms disappeared.

After the experiences of the Russian cosmonauts, some scientists must have thought to themselves: if the natural magnetic field surrounding the earth is so important to health, what does it mean that this field is increasingly being disturbed by the explosive growth of electric machinery? After all, every electric current produces an electromagnetic field and those fields increasingly “compete� with the earth’s natural magnetic field.

[patnray]

:jaw:
Clearly the author has no clue about basic physics...

Or the contradiction between the first and second paragraphs...

[Ashles]

I have responded with a short comment to the effect that the article is not 'science' in any way that it would be normally defined.

I got a pop-up message that informed me my comment would be reviewed by the editors.

I don't expect it to appear. Am I psychic?

[Harlequin]

Flies that ate magnetized sugar in experiments lived twice as longHow do you magnetize sugar?
mice exposed to a strong magnetic field twice a day also increased their longevity. I thought the exposure to electromagnetic fields was hurting us, now it's good for us (or atleast for the mice)?:confused:

[DevilsAdvocate]

Originally posted by patnray
Clearly the author has no clue about basic physics...

Or the contradiction between the first and second paragraphs... Maybe I have no clue about basic physics (although I think I do). What is the contradiction between the first and second paragraphs?

Also, what effects (if any) can very powerful magnets have on a person? Like if a person stood between two 12 foot super strong electo-magnets that were either positive/negative or both possitve or negative for a period of time, what would happen? Could this disrupt any biological processes (other than human implanted stuff like possibly a pacemaker or iron-oxide based tattoos)? I tried to search Google, but just kept coming up with woo-woo crap. I'm sure someone has done some scientific studies. Thanks. :)

[Beleth]

Originally posted by DevilsAdvocate
Maybe I have no clue about basic physics (although I think I do). What is the contradiction between the first and second paragraphs?The first paragraph is saying "artificial magnetism is good." The second paragraph is saying "artificial magnetism is bad."

[Aoidoi]

Originally posted by DevilsAdvocate
Maybe I have no clue about basic physics (although I think I do). What is the contradiction between the first and second paragraphs?(edit, beaten to it, but oh well) I suppose the contradiction comes from using a manmade device to help the cosmonauts in the first paragraph then saying man made electrical devices are a negative in the second paragraph.

Also, what effects (if any) can very powerful magnets have on a person? Like if a person stood between two 12 foot super strong electo-magnets that were either positive/negative or both possitve or negative for a period of time, what would happen? Could this disrupt any biological processes (other than human implanted stuff like possibly a pacemaker or iron-oxide based tattoos)? I tried to search Google, but just kept coming up with woo-woo crap. I'm sure someone has done some scientific studies. Thanks. :) Heard of MRIs? Magnetic Resonance Imaging. They stick people in a tube with very powerful electromagnets around them. Happens thousands of times a day. Fewer side effects than Xrays.

They've also managed to levitate small animals (spiders and little frogs from the clip I saw) in a magnetic field without any sort of adverse side effects. So a field strong enough to negate gravity caused no biological effect in those creatures.

Mythbusters did a bit on tattoo ink... basically there might be a tiny bit of warming, but no real danger there. Pacemakers are rather another story, strong EM fields can mess with pacemakers. Would not recommend experimenting with that. :)

[DevilsAdvocate]

Thanks. I didn't get the contradiction, and I still don't. I read it like this: People in outer space got sick because they lack the earth's natural magnetism. Therefore:

Lack the earth's natural magnetism = bad.
Earth's natural magnetism = good.
Man's electronics disrupting earth's natural magnetism = bad.

They seem to be saying that the earth's natural magnetism is important to health because lack of it caused sickness. Restoration of it cured the sickness. Therefore, we must preserve the earth's natural magnetism to maintain health. But man's electric machines disrupt the earth's natural magnetism. Disruption of something that is necessary to health will decrease health.

I see no flaw in this argument. I don't buy the assumptions being made about the causailty of the sickness or the singificance of magnetism, but accecpting the hypothesis, I find no contradictino in the logic.

Aoidoi, I was thinking about MRIs. Is there any danger in being stuck in an MRI machine for a week? Provided they had food water, etc. Could strong magents (like maybe in an MRI machine) over a long period have any effect at all on a person's body?

[DevilsAdvocate]

Originally posted by Aoidoi
They've also managed to levitate small animals (spiders and little frogs from the clip I saw) in a magnetic field without any sort of adverse side effects. So a field strong enough to negate gravity caused no biological effect in those creatures.Do you have any websites on this? I saw this on TV some time ago. I told my dad about this and he didn't believe me. I'm not sure I belive me. I'd like to learn about how these magnets "levitate" frogs. At least so that I can show my dad I'm not crazy. (I've searched on Google and couldn't find anything worthwhile.) :)

[geni]

Originally posted by DevilsAdvocate
Do you have any websites on this? I saw this on TV some time ago. I told my dad about this and he didn't believe me. I'm not sure I belive me. I'd like to learn about how these magnets "levitate" frogs. At least so that I can show my dad I'm not crazy. (I've searched on Google and couldn't find anything worthwhile.) :)


Google diamagnetism.

[DangerousBeliefs]

Originally posted by Aoidoi
Heard of MRIs? Magnetic Resonance Imaging. They stick people in a tube with very powerful electromagnets around them. Happens thousands of times a day. Fewer side effects than Xrays.

They've also managed to levitate small animals (spiders and little frogs from the clip I saw) in a magnetic field without any sort of adverse side effects. So a field strong enough to negate gravity caused no biological effect in those creatures.

Well... a quick google search picked up this research...

http://www.research.fsu.edu/researchr/issue2001/mice.html

It's from 2001 obviously... so perhaps its not to say there are no biological effects...

[SezMe]

Originally posted by DevilsAdvocate
Thanks. I didn't get the contradiction, and I still don't. I read it like this: People in outer space got sick because they lack the earth's natural magnetism. Therefore:

Lack the earth's natural magnetism = bad.
Earth's natural magnetism = good.
Man's electronics disrupting earth's natural magnetism = bad.
Here is my alternative take on it:
Lack the earth's natural magnetism = bad.
Add a special “magnetism generator� (man-made magnetism) = good
man-made magnetism "disturbed" earth magnetism = bad

IOW, man-made magnetism in space is good but back on good ol' terra firma, it is bad.

More importantly, all of this, of course, ignores that fact that astro-cosmo-nauts are NOT outside the effects of earth's magnetic field.

ETA: I added my comments...we'll see.
It's just male bovine excrement.

[jmercer]

How about an anecdotal comment vis-a-vis MRI's? I've had a number of them done to me over the years, as well as x-rays and CAT scans.

I've also had to hold VERY still for extended periods of time for medical procedures, meditation, etc... so I'm no stranger to holding still. :)

When I have MRI's, I've encountered any number of oddball sensations - but the one thing I've repeatedly encountered is involuntary muscle-twitch. From talking to the technicians, I've been told that this isn't unusual. Explanations were generally a simple shrug and "I don't know". I believe the effect is real, and I know it's involuntary. And it's certainly been consistent and repeatable for me.

Realizing that this is anecdotal, it still makes me inclined to wonder if magnetism has more of an effect on the human body (perhaps nervous system) than might appear to be the case.

[DaveW]

Originally posted by jmercer
How about an anecdotal comment vis-a-vis MRI's? I've had a number of them done to me over the years, as well as x-rays and CAT scans.

I've also had to hold VERY still for extended periods of time for medical procedures, meditation, etc... so I'm no stranger to holding still. :)

When I have MRI's, I've encountered any number of oddball sensations - but the one thing I've repeatedly encountered is involuntary muscle-twitch. From talking to the technicians, I've been told that this isn't unusual. Explanations were generally a simple shrug and "I don't know". I believe the effect is real, and I know it's involuntary. And it's certainly been consistent and repeatable for me.

Realizing that this is anecdotal, it still makes me inclined to wonder if magnetism has more of an effect on the human body (perhaps nervous system) than might appear to be the case.

Try laying motionless anywhere for a while, and see if you don't involuntarily twitch, magnetic field or no. I suspect you will.

[supercorgi]

Originally posted by jmercer
I've also had to hold VERY still for extended periods of time for medical procedures, meditation, etc... so I'm no stranger to holding still. :)

<snip>

When I have MRI's, I've encountered any number of oddball sensations - but the one thing I've repeatedly encountered is involuntary muscle-twitch. From talking to the technicians, I've been told that this isn't unusual.
But have you tried lying perfectly still while blindfolded and in a coffin that someone is drumming on? Because to me that seems more akin to an MRI where it's very claustrophobic, you can't see anything, and it's going "thunk, thunk, thunk" over your head. I've only had one MRI, and it was one of the newer "open" ones (open! You're still lying there with a flat wall about 2 inches above your face!), but I would think the odd conditions and the stress of the test environment could cause the twitchies.

http://my.voyager.net/~farrago/MyIcons/BrposeR.gif

[jmercer]

Originally posted by DaveW
Try laying motionless anywhere for a while, and see if you don't involuntarily twitch, magnetic field or no. I suspect you will.

Actually, I do the motionless thing fairly often and I don't twitch the way I meant when I posted. My bad - I should have provided a better description. I'm not talking about twitching as in a spasm of the body. I'm talking twitch as in 'eye-tic', where a single muscle in a single location starts to... well, twitch.

Utterly involuntary, no conscious control, and when it happened, I couldnt' stop it - it had to stop by itself.

[jmercer]

Originally posted by supercorgi
But have you tried lying perfectly still while blindfolded and in a coffin that someone is drumming on? Because to me that seems more akin to an MRI where it's very claustrophobic, you can't see anything, and it's going "thunk, thunk, thunk" over your head. I've only had one MRI, and it was one of the newer "open" ones (open! You're still lying there with a flat wall about 2 inches above your face!), but I would think the odd conditions and the stress of the test environment could cause the twitchies.

http://my.voyager.net/~farrago/MyIcons/BrposeR.gif

Mmm... good point. And I've been in both open and closed, and yeah, you're right. On the other hand, I pretty well zone out between the music and my meditation with my eyes closed.

Still, an excellent point... at least for a couple of the MRI's, especially the very first one. But over the years I've probably had about 15. (Knee surgery, shoulder pain, and the first time to rule out a brain tumor. Which it did, thank god. :) )

It's pretty much business as usual for me nowadays. I have to say that I don't recall the twitching coinciding with any sudden noises. Can't deny that there were times when I tensed up due to a sudden bang, though.

Well, like I said, anecdotal. I won't insist on it meaning anything other than it's what I experienced. :)

[patnray]

Originally posted by DevilsAdvocate
Maybe I have no clue about basic physics (although I think I do). What is the contradiction between the first and second paragraphs?
Assuming that they were "outside the earth's magnetic field" (not that I believe that) they were nevertheless surrounded by electrical equipment and motors. Hence they would still be exposed to magnetic fields. Which they claim they are unhealthy in the second paragraph. If that is true (not that I believe it), then perhaps that was the cause of the illness. Plus the claim in the first paragraph that artificial fields restored health.

A short item in this month's Scientific American claims that, due to the difficulties bathing in space, the MIR space station was known to have a serious problem with odors. Perhaps that had something to do with the illnesses...

[jj]

*plonk*

They are truly cocoa for coocoopuffs.

It is better if words fail me at this time.

[patnray]

I note that they are posting our comments, at least for now...

[jj]

Merc -

I read that page again. I have no idea where to even start. It's an amazing example of unsupported hypotheses, contradictions, and simple confusions about how physics works.

What's the difference between "natural" and "artificial" magnetism, anyhow? Does one use artificial electrons (or protons)????

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by jj
Merc -

I read that page again. I have no idea where to even start. It's an amazing example of unsupported hypotheses, contradictions, and simple confusions about how physics works.

What's the difference between "natural" and "artificial" magnetism, anyhow? Does one use artificial electrons (or protons)???? Then don't read my other thread, on zero-point fields.

jj, you need to calm down. Put the south pole of a magnet near your frontal lobe, it will draw in all that excess energy. Then put the north pole near your heart and energize it with positive magnetism. Be sure you use a lodestone instead of an artificial magnet--and whatever you do, stay away from electromagnets! (Especially if you live in an area with nuclear power generation--man, you do not want those electrons anywhere near your aura!)

I just got a great idea for making a bunch of money on ebay...anyone know where I can buy lodestones cheap?

[Dr Adequate]

Cells are ordered by magnetism. The smallest building blocks of life—atoms and molecules—are micro magnets with a plus and minus pole, comparable to the earth’s poles. Because everything is made up of atoms and molecules, every structure is determined by magnetism... If (electro) magnetism orders the very process of life, then a disturbance to this magnetism will result in an increase in chaos and degeneration. And that is exactly what’s being observed: a strong increase in degenerative diseases and chaotic explosions of violence among humans and in nature.
No, you fools, that's got nothing to do with electromagnetism!

Those are signs that the Second Coming is at hand.

(Or they have been for the last two thousand years anyway.)

:dl:

I like the discussion as well.
If magnetics have no merit, how is it that I function SO much better after being exposed to a magnetic field and feel poorly with an elctromagnetic one?
Now there's a question.

[jj]

Originally posted by Mercutio
Then don't read my other thread, on zero-point fields.

jj, you need to calm down. Put the south pole of a magnet near your frontal lobe, it will draw in all that excess energy. Then put the north pole near your heart and energize it with positive magnetism. Be sure you use a lodestone instead of an artificial magnet--and whatever you do, stay away from electromagnets! (Especially if you live in an area with nuclear power generation--man, you do not want those electrons anywhere near your aura!)

I just got a great idea for making a bunch of money on ebay...anyone know where I can buy lodestones cheap?

(with apologies to "The Boxer")

I'm the psychic healer,
And my story's often told.
I have squandered all your money
On a pocket full of crystals and my promises,
All lies and jests, still the mark hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest, dumb dumb dumb, woe woe!

When I left my home and family
I was no more than a boy in the company of mammon
In the quiet of the railway station selling wares,
For a pocket full of change, people feeling really scared
Seeking out ignorant quarters, where the vulnerable all go
Looking for the help they thought that I would know.

Lie lie lie, I just lie lie lie lie lie
Lie lie lie, I just lie de di de di de di de die!

[jj]

(to the tune of the Irish Washerwoman)

Bioelectromagnetics is all the rage
It keeps on cropping up and it just hogs the stage,
The fact it don't work it just isn't in youth,
But nobody even notices truth!

(bows)
Thank you, Thank you.