Lisl Auman

[Roadtoad]

I'm coming into this story late, but does anyone else have any more information than what I'm pulling up on Google?

There's just too much that says this woman is innocent, and has no business being behind bars. This can't be right.

If you're going to send someone to prison for the rest of their life for killing a cop, shouldn't there have been some evidence that:

1.) They had access to a weapon. (Auman was handcuffed in the backseat of a patrol car.

2.) They had some reason to kill the cop. (She was fleeing from a psychotic meth-head, and was running to the cops.)

3.) They had means available to kill the cop. (See above.)

Help, please?

[Suddenly]

Originally posted by Roadtoad
I'm coming into this story late, but does anyone else have any more information than what I'm pulling up on Google?

There's just too much that says this woman is innocent, and has no business being behind bars. This can't be right.

If you're going to send someone to prison for the rest of their life for killing a cop, shouldn't there have been some evidence that:

1.) They had access to a weapon. (Auman was handcuffed in the backseat of a patrol car.

2.) They had some reason to kill the cop. (She was fleeing from a psychotic meth-head, and was running to the cops.)

3.) They had means available to kill the cop. (See above.)

Help, please?

Welcome to felony murder, a doctrine common to many states. A few states have rejected it, but it remains a little slice of the 15th century that lives on...

If, during any stage of a commission of a felony, someone gets killed, all those engaged in the felony are guilty of First Degree Murder, and in many cases that means Life with No Parole.

(that is the short version... it isn't quite that simple, and there are exceptions)

Hunter S. Thompson wrote an excelent article on this for ESPN's Page 2. It may be on the Lisl website, but I don't know.

As I recall...

Legally speaking, she was in the car when the nutbag comitted a robbery, and since she grabbed the wheel during the big chase with the cops she was deemed to assist in the commission of a felony.

So, when the nutbag shot a cop during the process of fleeing, the death occurred during the commission of a felony, a felony that Lisl assisted in....

So, she is legally guilty of Murder.

This is a pretty thin example of felony murder. I had a case once where two guys broke into a house they thought was empty. While one guy was tossing the downstairs the other went upstairs...

Imagine the first guy's suprise when he learned the next day that while upstairs the other dude found a sleeping lady and killed her...

Guilty of first degree murder even thought the state more or less agreed that he had no clue the other guy did, or even would, kill someone...


The Felony murder rule is a nice device for lazy prosecutors who can prove murder without being bothered to show any intent to kill. Just figure out a felony, prove it and a death...

Back before 1972 people used to be executed on this theory, so I guess it could be worse...

[crimresearch]

The answers to your questions are 'No', 'No', and 'No'.

She was convicted under felony murder statutes, which recognize that you don't have to pull the trigger to be punished.

If someone dies while you are busy committing or fleeing from a felonious act, you are treated differently than if no one died. Simple as that.

She isn't in jail for shooting a cop, she is in jail for *choosing* to commit actions that:

>...Were a felony....(many folks don't understand the elements of burglary, BTW)

>...Were part of a sequence of events that included a death.

The penalties are on a par with directly killing someone, even if the actions are different.

[Mahatma Kane Jeeves]

Running to the cops? Sounds like there are some radically different stories out there. IANAL, but I think she was charged with murder because the officer was killed during the robbery which she was complicit in.

The Facts as Presented to the Jury in the Case of People of the State of Colorado v. Lisl Auman (http://www.denverda.org/html_website/denver_da/News_release/2004%20release/AumanFacts.pdf) [pdf file]
Lisl Auman and four complicitors burglarized the room of Auman’s ex-boyfriend, whom Auman believed had betrayed her. The burglary led to: (1) a high speed chase during which a sheriff’s deputy was shot at and his car hit; (2) a car crash involving an innocent motorist; (3) the murder of one police officer, Bruce VanderJagt; and (4) an attack on other law enforcement officers with an assault rifle. The violence ended only when Auman’s complicitor, Mattheus Jaehning, who had murdered Officer VanderJagt, ran out of assault rifle ammunition and killed himself. Auman had been cornered and arrested at gunpoint scant minutes before the murder.

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by Mahatma Kane Jeeves
Running to the cops? Sounds like there are some radically different stories out there. IANAL, but I think she was charged with murder because the officer was killed during the robbery which she was complicit in.

The Facts as Presented to the Jury in the Case of People of the State of Colorado v. Lisl Auman (http://www.denverda.org/html_website/denver_da/News_release/2004%20release/AumanFacts.pdf) [pdf file]

Ouch.

Seems pretty clear the girl knew from the start what was up, including the fact that Jaehning was packing some serious heat. I don't know what she set on the ground, (that was mentioned in the pdf file), or what its significance is, but as for the rest of it, it stilll raises hackles.

I don't know if life without parole is appropriate, but then, I wonder if VanderJagt's family thinks it would be enough.

[Giz]

"Burglerized"? What's wrong with "burgled"? Speak English darn it!

[crimresearch]

Because there is no such person as a 'Burgle'.

There is such a person as a 'Burglar', and they tend to commit burgl-AR-ies.

[Suddenly]

Originally posted by Roadtoad
Ouch.

Seems pretty clear the girl knew from the start what was up, including the fact that Jaehning was packing some serious heat. I don't know what she set on the ground, (that was mentioned in the pdf file), or what its significance is, but as for the rest of it, it stilll raises hackles.

I don't know if life without parole is appropriate, but then, I wonder if VanderJagt's family thinks it would be enough.

Keep in mind that the link is from a state's brief. The whole point of the fact section is to skew the facts in order to persuade, in this case to persuade the reader that the accused is a very bad person not deserving of sympathy, so I would be very skeptical of it, as much as you would the defense version.

The thing that gets me is that they criticise her for not running away earlier in the chase. Given that she did finally surrender before the murder anyway, it is hard to see how that is legally significant. If she surrenders then she still was part of the flight and burglary that led to a death, still guilty of Felony Murder.

"Facts in the light most favorable to the state" is not the same as the truth...

[Mahatma Kane Jeeves]

Weigh the evidence from both sides? You're really not getting into the spirit of "trial by message board." Party pooper. :p

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by Mahatma Kane Jeeves
Weigh the evidence from both sides? You're really not getting into the spirit of "trial by message board." Party pooper. :p

Well, if it makes you feel any better, I haven't made up my mind yet. I'm still looking for the full facts of the case.

Has the Colorado Supreme Court ruled yet?

[Suddenly]

Originally posted by Roadtoad
Well, if it makes you feel any better, I haven't made up my mind yet. I'm still looking for the full facts of the case.

Has the Colorado Supreme Court ruled yet?

You will never get a neutral set of facts. Only thing to do is to read everything, assume everyone is spinning the facts like crazy if not straight lying, and....

Well, become very cynical.

Works for me anyway... :D

[Camillus]

Originally posted by crimresearch
Because there is no such person as a 'Burgle'.

There is such a person as a 'Burglar', and they tend to commit burgl-AR-ies.

There's no such person as a "Butle" either but a "Butler" "Buttles" and if you have ever been served by one then he (or she) has "Buttled" for you.

Please don't tell me US Butlers go around "Buttlerizing" people because that is an image I can do without.

[crimresearch]

'Buttlerizing'

LOL!! That's great. :D

[Mahatma Kane Jeeves]

Originally posted by Roadtoad
Well, if it makes you feel any better, I haven't made up my mind yet. I'm still looking for the full facts of the case.

Has the Colorado Supreme Court ruled yet?
Actually, I was just needling our resident defense attorney. In retrospect, my comment looks like a slam on you and the original post. I apologize; I didn't mean it that way at all. I've been feeling kind of crotchety lately, and directed my sarcasm at precisely the wrong people.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by LegalPenguin
I had a case once where two guys broke into a house they thought was empty. While one guy was tossing the downstairs the other went upstairs...

Imagine the first guy's suprise when he learned the next day that while upstairs the other dude found a sleeping lady and killed her...

Guilty of first degree murder even thought the state more or less agreed that he had no clue the other guy did, or even would, kill someone...

Lesson to be learned: If you don't want to be charged with murder, don't break into houses.

I will shed no tears for any of these people.

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer
I will shed no tears for any of these people.

I don't cry when thieves get nailed, either. Maybe I'm getting soft, but Auman's situation, bad as it is, seems excessive. Life without parole?

I need more 411. Something is missing.

[crimresearch]

Originally posted by Mahatma Kane Jeeves
Actually, I was just needling our resident defense attorney. In retrospect, my comment looks like a slam on you and the original post. I apologize; I didn't mean it that way at all. I've been feeling kind of crotchety lately, and directed my sarcasm at precisely the wrong people.

More practice should develop better accuracy.

[crimresearch]

Originally posted by Roadtoad
I don't cry when thieves get nailed, either. Maybe I'm getting soft, but Auman's situation, bad as it is, seems excessive. Life without parole?

I need more 411. Something is missing.

As I've mentioned in other threads, the courts don't rely on mind readers..and in the absence of knowing what someone was thinking, there are situations where someone could disguise their guilt though a convenient excuse...in closing those loopholes, and punishing people for their actions, perhaps a certain perception of unfairness is created.