The problem with Astrology...

[Tompet]

The problem with Astrology (http://www.elbertwade.com/page44.html) :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Zep]

From that reference:The psychic industry (and that's what it is) has grasped the opportunity to capitalize big-time on Astrology's good name to the degree that the general public is all but completely confused about the differences between Astrology and fortune-telling.

There is an urgent need to get the word out--and you can help. Face it. Counterfeit psychics are siphoning off entirely too much of the business astrologers would otherwise get--and these "psychics" are not giving the worthwhile help and assistance to clients a good astrologer can offer.*sigh*

It's about the money, folks.

[Chocolate Chip]

Consider making more public contact and doing some local public relations work to restate the true Astrology story to the general public in order to make clear the sharp distinction between the legitimately-practiced science-art Astrology and so-called psychics--and other assorted fortune-tellers.

Looks alot like the pot calling the kettle black too. Legitimately practiced science-art? How does someone define that??? artistic science ???

Using "science" to give the appearance of legitimacy would be more accurate.

[Questioninggeller]

I really hope Penn and Teller do a "Bullsh!t" episode on Astrology...

[arthwollipot]

Originally posted by Chocolate Chip
Looks alot like the pot calling the kettle black too. Legitimately practiced science-art? How does someone define that??? artistic science ???

Using "science" to give the appearance of legitimacy would be more accurate.

There is some "science" in astrology, by a stretch of the definition. More like mathematics actually. The calculation of the positions of the planets at an arbitrary time from an arbitrary viewpoint and plotting them on a chart is quite a complex, methodological business.

Of course, what they do with it once they've got the chart is pure woo. So it's kinda pointless going to all that effort, hmm?

The thing that came to mind when I saw the title of this topic was "there's only one problem?"

[MRC_Hans]

I think that is very nice. There is a lot of cross-discipline solidarity among woo-woos; what we really need is to get them fighting each other. We must make them understand that they are in fierce competition.

Hans

[Dr Adequate]

There is an urgent need to get the word out--and you can help. Face it. Counterfeit psychics are siphoning off entirely too much of the business astrologers would otherwise get--and these "psychics" are not giving the worthwhile help and assistance to clients a good astrologer can offer.
Right. What we need is a system of licensing so that only those astrologers who can prove that they can actually predict the future are allowed to practice. And obviously the Real Genuine Astrologers would all clamour for such licensing, to protect both the public and their own financial interests.

Let's listen to the clamour, shall we?

http://users.rcn.com/rostmd/winace/pics/chirping_cricket.gif

[Mojo]

Originally posted by arthwollipot
There is some "science" in astrology, by a stretch of the definition. More like mathematics actually. The calculation of the positions of the planets at an arbitrary time from an arbitrary viewpoint and plotting them on a chart is quite a complex, methodological business.

Of course, what they do with it once they've got the chart is pure woo. So it's kinda pointless going to all that effort, hmm?Surely working out where the planets were at a particular time uses a real science, astronomy, not astrology. I shouldn't really comment on how the "chart" is plotted as I don't know what it involves, but I suspect that this is the point at which "woo" elements start to appear. If the positions are worked out by some other method than the techniques used in astronomy it's not using any science at all (especially, although not necessarily, if it gives different results).

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by arthwollipot
There is some "science" in astrology, by a stretch of the definition. More like mathematics actually. The calculation of the positions of the planets at an arbitrary time from an arbitrary viewpoint and plotting them on a chart is quite a complex, methodological business. Yes... though the task would be a lot easier --- indeed, trivial --- if Mr Charles Babbage could only perfect his Analytical Engine. Imagine if these elaborate computations could be performed by a steam-driven calculating machine!

[DevilsAdvocate]

Originally posted by Dr Adequate
Yes... though the task would be a lot easier --- indeed, trivial --- if Mr Charles Babbage could only perfect his Analytical Engine. Imagine if these elaborate computations could be performed by a steam-driven calculating machine! Computers certainly had an effect on my scepticism. I'm sure that 20-25 years ago I made some astrology programs that would create charts and predictions (OK, I have a weakness for addressing any problem bythrowing some computer programs at it, but it usually works).

One of the toughest problems was defining how to derive conclusions from an astrology chart. All the books were different and sometimes explicitly conflicting. Some were hunches or "probabilities"--but no numbers to fit into the code. I needed numbers like 82% agressive, 12% passive, 3% niether, 3% unknown. But there were no numbers or even standard algorithms, but they all claimed to be true. So, not much of a program without adequate functional specifications.

So we ar left with reading the chart as an "art". There is an "art" to knowing what people are thinking, or what a stranger is like, or making an educated guess about what will happen in the future that is beyond a simple computer program. But astrology seems to take a "person" and reduce it to a star chart (raw data) then use "art" to derive conclusions from the raw data. You can make god guesses or predictions from something like a "person" that has great many variables.

The raw data of an astrological chart has limited data and therefore must have standard algorithims by which the data is analized. There isn't. Or if there is, it has not (to my knowledge) benn proven effective, and it would be very easy to test even on a large scale.

So, making conclusions from raw data (like astrological charts) is impossible without standard algorithims. Astrology (to my knowledge) has no such standard algorithims and therefore is impossible to be effective. So astrology is impossible to be effective.

I guess that makes me an "Extreme Skeptic" with regards to astrology because I start with the assumption (conclusion) that its effectiveness is impossible. :)

[DevilsAdvocate]

Originally posted by Tompet
The problem with Astrology (http://www.elbertwade.com/page44.html) :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Maybe I missed the point.

SADLY, far too many people think astrologers are just another bunch of fortune-tellers. Why is this the case? Well, they (the public at large) tend to believe what they hear, see, read and experience.

Review 1998 editions of Today's Astrologer. You will find, among many good articles on Astrology, these titles: "It's In the Cards," "Biorhythms and You," "Outer Planets and Numerology," "Past Life Themes in the Horoscope," and "Prophecies from Many Sources" in which the writer says: "Astrology's main purpose is to make predictions--if not of the future, at least what the chart reveals about the native." Then goes on to cite the validity of certain unnamed modern-day so-called astrologers' predictions. (Question: Why would astrologers and psychics--sadly the line separating them is all but gone--make public predictions? Answer: To gain publicity, notoriety, and "fame." What other reason could there be--other than perhaps a pure ego trip?) When they 'hit,' they never let the public forget; when they 'miss' (which is most of the time), they never mention their failures. If astorology does not "make predictions", what does it do? Astrologers can "give advice", but isn't this expected to be based on "seeing the future" which depends on being able to "make predictions" about the future? I really don't understand what this person is claiming that "real" astrologers can do. :(

[DevilsAdvocate]

I see.

The Trends chart and analysis offers a "roadmap" of the potentials ahead for you. Like a roadmap, it shows major 'forks in the 'road' ahead but does not predict or require that you take one or the other; however, it does suggest what the possible consequences of taking either may be.
So for $110, you get a "prediction...of the future" "'forks in the 'road' ahead", which is not a "prediction...of the future" because you may choose either fork.

So we won't predict your future, because that would be silly woo-woo stuff, and dang it would be impossible to prove. Instead, we will predict your future possibilities, using a computer, that creates a chart, which we then copy by hand so that you don't feel cheated by us just using a computer. This gives you "a "roadmap" of the potentials ahead for you". But definitely not a prediction, which we are entirely against. But you do get predictions of the consequences of these possible choices which may or may not happen and therefore are entirely unprovable. And before you get to it, the interpretation of the "potentials" and the "consequences" (which are not predictions of the future) require interpretation.

For $110 you get a computer print out of some data, a hand drawing of that data, and a list of potential issues that maybe might could possibly be a "potential" for anyone, and we'll tell you which coice is maybe possibly best because you will never be able to prove us wrong no matter which choice you make (at least not probably, or at least not until we already have your $110).

THANKS FOR P(L)AYING! :D

[dmc]

I must admit, I owe a rather significant debt to astrology. In my youth, I was something of a quasi-woo about some things (although the term wasn’t used then to my knowledge and I wouldn’t have referred to myself as such if it had). So someone thought it would be an appropriate birthday gift to give me an astrology book that, for one calendar year, listed the daily prospects for my sign. I checked out the recent past, and had to admit it was pretty accurate – a lot of the stuff it said would happen on those days actually did. So I started referencing the book…well, “religiously� I suppose. If it said today was a good day to get some exercise, I’d go for a walk, and so on. Anyway, after a couple of weeks of this I re-checked the front cover and discovered *the book was intended for the upcoming year!* In other words, all those horoscopes I was so dutifully following were in fact supposed to be describing what would happen on that date a year in the future. The episode had a profound impact on me, since I learned (1) Astrological forecasts are worded in a way that they apply to practically anyone on any day, and (2) I was fully capable of deluding myself into believing something that was obviously a crock. As much as anything, that one experience helped orient me on the skeptical path that I still follow today.

Years later, astrology caused me something of an ethical crisis when I met my wife-to-be. Now you have to understand, I had no clue why this smart, sexy babe would have any interest in me, but for some unfathomable reason it appeared she did. We had been together maybe a week or two when she in all seriousness informed me that she had checked an astrology book written by Linda Goodman (“Love Signs� I think) and discovered that our two signs made us soul mates! So it was written in the stars that we’d be together!! All right people, ‘fess up…what would *you* do in this situation, if the partner of your dreams believed that astrology indicated you were fated to fall in love? Would you stay 100% true to your skeptical roots and reply “Oh, that whole astrology thing is totally bogus. Don’t waste your time believing a second of it� and risk nipping a promising relationship in the bud? (And don’t give me any of that “hey if they can’t take the truth I don’t want to be with them anyway� nonsense unless you have way more romantic options than I even did.) As it turned out, I ended up telling her something like “well, I don’t know how much I believe in astrology, but I do think we’re meant for each other� or some such middle-of-the road reply, which kept my skeptical self-respect intact without impacting my love life.

So astrology helped make me a skeptic, and might have helped me get together with my soul mate – not bad for something I don’t believe in!

[phildonnia]

Originally posted by DevilsAdvocate
Computers certainly had an effect on my scepticism. I'm sure that 20-25 years ago I made some astrology programs that would create charts and predictions ... But there were no numbers or even standard algorithms, but they all claimed to be true. So, not much of a program without adequate functional specifications.
...

20-25 years ago, I wrote a computer program to do biorhythms. That was a lot more numerical, and there was really only one book on it at the time.

[Chocolate Chip]

Originally posted by dmc
I must admit, I owe a rather significant debt to astrology. In my youth, I was something of a quasi-woo about some things (although the term wasn’t used then to my knowledge and I wouldn’t have referred to myself as such if it had). So someone thought it would be an appropriate birthday gift to give me an astrology book that, for one calendar year, listed the daily prospects for my sign. I checked out the recent past, and had to admit it was pretty accurate – a lot of the stuff it said would happen on those days actually did. ..snip...*the book was intended for the upcoming year!* In other words, all those horoscopes I was so dutifully following were in fact supposed to be describing what would happen on that date a year in the future.
Could it be, because you were a believer at the time, in your mind you "fit" what was written in the book to your everyday activities? Making the book appear accurate (even though it was for a year in advance:D). From what I studied, it happens when someone is being cold read by a "psychic". The psychic makes generalizations and the client/victim makes the generalization fit to themselves in some way, thus giving the psychic a hit.
Now you have to understand, I had no clue why this smart, sexy babe would have any interest in me, but for some unfathomable reason it appeared she did. We had been together maybe a week or two when she in all seriousness informed me that she had checked an astrology book written by Linda Goodman (“Love Signs� I think) and discovered that our two signs made us soul mates!
You were together a couple of weeks before she commented on the "soul mates" discovery. What initially attracted you to each other? (This may be a bit personal though, so you really don't need to answer). My point is that there must have been something else that brought you two together, after all, the astrology aspect was discovered only afterwards.
I had no clue why this smart, sexy babe would have any interest in me
NEVER sell yourself short dude.
As it turned out, I ended up telling her something like “well, I don’t know how much I believe in astrology, but I do think we’re meant for each other�
Smoothie! :D
But seriously, do you plan on ever making it clear to her how you feel about astrology and woo woo stuff in general? It might become a source of possible friction between you two in the future. Once again, this may be of a personal nature, you don't have to really answer.

[dmc]

No problem, my wife and I are very open where we stand on astrology, religion, the paranormal in general, and stuff like that. (I think you have to be, otherwise you'll never know if the person you're with is in love with someone you're not -- and vice versa, if that makes any sense.) As for Lisa and I, it's worked out pretty well -- in fact, last night was our 17th wedding anniversary! ("See? See? Astrology works whether you believe it or not!" "Yeah sure, now let's go to bed...")

[arthwollipot]

Originally posted by Mojo
Surely working out where the planets were at a particular time uses a real science, astronomy, not astrology. I shouldn't really comment on how the "chart" is plotted as I don't know what it involves, but I suspect that this is the point at which "woo" elements start to appear. If the positions are worked out by some other method than the techniques used in astronomy it's not using any science at all (especially, although not necessarily, if it gives different results).

Yes, the positioning of the planets is (as far as I can tell) pure astronomy. However, most people look them up in an ephemeris rather than making the direct observations themselves. The positioning of the zodiac and the houses is pretty arbitrary, but they're all to do with interpretation anyway.

So astrology ("real" astrology as opposed to newspaper astrology) is part astronomy, part making stuff up.