The Catholic Church is a scam run by Italians

[jay gw]

The current pope, John Paul, is the first non-Italian to be elected to the Pontificate since Adrian VI, who was briefly pope in 1522-23.

Does anyone else find this.....a little odd? That in all the world, in 450 years, the only Catholics "worthy" of being pope.....are Italians?

Mafia.

[Z]

Not really. The culture has a greater prevalence towards Roman Catholic practices - so it's most likely to turn out someone qualified to be Pope. Besides, Popes are likely to be selected from guys known locally, rather than those abroad. Simple.

Mafia, my foot.

[Zep]

What took you so long to notice that the Vatican City is plumb in the middle of the Italian capital city?

There was a time when there were two popes simultaneously, there was once a female pope (she was quite a murderous character, apparently), and there has been an English and some French popes. Popes have been notorious womanisers, shysters, murderers, robbers...since when WASN'T it a scam?

[TragicMonkey]

Originally posted by Zep
What took you so long to notice that the Vatican City is plumb in the middle of the Italian capital city?

There was a time when there were two popes simultaneously, there was once a female pope (she was quite a murderous character, apparently), and there has been an English and some French popes. Popes have been notorious womanisers, shysters, murderers, robbers...since when WASN'T it a scam?

There was never a female pope. "Pope Joan" was pure myth. Martin von Troppau recorded it as fact in his Chronicle of Popes and Emperors, only he put her after Leo IV while other versions have her succeeding Victor III. It was exposed as myth in the 17th century, but anti-Catholic sentiments kept the story going.

The simultaneous popes were due to political differences. You can count them or not. The papal seat hasn't always been at Rome, it has been removed elsewhere in times of crisis, warfare, or just plain politicking.

There have been popes of many nationalities. Spanish popes (including the two Borgia popes), Greek popes, Burgundians, Africans, Frenchmen, Syrians, and a few whose nationality is uncertain or unknown, and more. Yeah, the majority have been Italians, but that's greatly due to who the candidates are: cardinals who are involved in internal Church politics. Someone resident in Rome is going to have a huge advantage over someone who gets there once in a blue moon. (Although they have selected some strictly because they were outsiders.)

The last 450 years, yeah, they've all been Italians. That's because of politics. For most of those 450 years, the pope was a sovereign ruler of a large patch of Italy. It would have been against the Church's interests as a state to have a foreigner occupy the throne.

I strongly recommend Chronicle of the Popes by PG Maxwell-Stuart. Informative and interesting, covers the reigns of all the popes, including the antipopes.

[Zep]

Seems the jury is still out on "Pope Joan", although it does seem to tend towards myth. Neh, I'll leave that one to the appropriate scholars!

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/popeJoan.html
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/doubleissue/mysteries/pope.htm
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~pardos/PopeJoanHome.html

[LW]

Originally posted by Zep
Seems the jury is still out on "Pope Joan", although it does seem to tend towards myth. Neh, I'll leave that one to the appropriate scholars!


Well, the jury is still out in a little similar way that the jury is still out on the number of Kennedy assassins.

The first version of this story surfaced in Jean de Mailly's account written somewhere around 1255 and there the female pope doesn't have a name and lived around 1100. Note that this was during a period when the fight between Pope and Emperor was raging high and there were popes, antipopes, emperors, and antiemperors around, with accusations of heresy and excommunications flying in all directions. So, it was probably not the best times of writing fair and balanced histories of Christianity.

A couple of years later Martin of Troppau included the story in his work. He was the first to give the name "Joan" to the female pope and dated her reign in 855-7. (She has also be called Agnes and Gilberta in later sources). Pope Leo IV died in July 855. It is said that Joan ruled for two years after that and only later records extended the reign of Benedict III to 855 and he really wasn't elected before 857. However, there are three pieces of contemporary physical evidence against this:

- a minted coin bearing the pictures of both Emperor Lothar and Benedict. Lothar died in September 855 so Benedict had to be the pope by that.

- The charter of Abbey of Corvey that was given in October 855 bearing Benedict's seal; and

- A letter from Archbishop of Rheims that identifies Benedict as Leo's successor.

Now, in theory these all might be later forgeriers, especially the charter. But given that the first written mention of the event comes from 400 years later and it puts the event 250 years later, it is far more probable that the contemporary stuff is correct and the later fiction. Then there's the problem of how de Mailly got his information? Oral lore 400 years old, what a paragon of reliability? Earlier written accounts? If so, why haven't they been found or even some texts quoting them. In between mid 9th and 13th century there was the whole reformation movement initiated by the monks of Cluny who even managed to get their men as popes. Why didn't they cite the female pope as an example of papal misuses that should be corrected? (BTW, it was the Clunists who managed to finally push through the idea of celibate priesthood, before their reformation oridinary priests could marry and only church officials from bishop and up had to be unmarried).

It is extremely unlikely that there ever was a female pope.

[crimresearch]

Originally posted by jay gw
The current pope, John Paul, is the first non-Italian to be elected to the Pontificate since Adrian VI, who was briefly pope in 1522-23.

Does anyone else find this.....a little odd? That in all the world, in 450 years, the only Catholics "worthy" of being pope.....are Italians?

Mafia.

JayGW, don't you bother to do ANY research before you post this nonsense?

Everyone knows that the Catholic Church is run by the Chinese Communist Government (http://eapi.admu.edu.ph/eapr97/chap1.htm)

:p

[c4ts]

Evidently you missed out on the Teutonic Pope...