Clones--the abomination?

[william1165]

I hope not all people see "cloning" as an entirely bad thing. Mr. Millar sees cloning as an abomination, "because it does not have a God-given soul". Let me explain something here, feel free to agree or disagree.

If the issue is that a clone does not have a God-given soul, does that mean that humans born as a result of in-vitro fertilization also do not have souls? It is the same manual process of "fertilization".

My wife and I cannot have children. Research that leads to a human clone gives people like us hope to have a biological child, even it is a DNA-copy of my wife--or sister--or mother (even mother-in-law). So don't fear it--welcome it--but maintain the moral compass.

Sorry. Had to pipe in.

[Gr8wight]

Originally posted by william1165
If the issue is that a clone does not have a God-given soul, does that mean that humans born as a result of in-vitro fertilization also do not have souls?

I believe there are many here who would argue that the answer to that question is yes. In fact, they would say that even human beings conceived in the age old traditional method also do not have a God given soul.

[william1165]

Originally posted by Gr8wight
I believe there are many here who would argue that the answer to that question is yes.

THAT question was intended to be answered in the perspective of Mr. Millar. The point being that if cloning does not produce a God-given soul, neither does IVF.

William

[Seismosaurus]

Even assuming that there is such a thing as a soul, I don't see why a clone wouldn't have one. Identical twins are natural clones and I doubt many religious people would say that they do not have a soul, or that they have half a soul each.

Any form of conception takes place through biological processes which are initiated by Humans. The religious seem to believe that at some point in this process god steps in and adds a soul to the mix. Why assume that he wouldn't do the exact same thing at the moment a clone was created?

[Pixel42]

I've never understood this business of immortal souls. Does God create a new immortal soul every time a baby is conceived, or does he have a ready-made supply on hand? 40% of conceptions are miscarried, what happens to those immortal souls, and how is their fate decided? Oh I've got it, God knows everything so he would know in advance which pregnancies are going to miscarry, he wouldn't waste one of his precious immortal souls on something that will never be more than a half-inch mass of tissue - no, that can't be right either, or religious people wouldn't get so worked up about abortion.

And yes, what about identical twins, do they end up with half a soul each? My niece died when she was six hours old, did God create an immortal soul for her, and if so what will happen to that for the rest of eternity?

Like I say, completely mystified.

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Cloning is perfectly acceptable. Whats the "strange", or "abomination" part of an identical twin? thats what a clone is. Oh, and that about having or not "a soul". One of the most ridicule assumptions of all times. They would have as much as any of us. ;)

[jmercer]

Originally posted by Pixel42
I've never understood this business of immortal souls. Does God create a new immortal soul every time a baby is conceived, or does he have a ready-made supply on hand? 40% of conceptions are miscarried, what happens to those immortal souls, and how is their fate decided? Oh I've got it, God knows everything so he would know in advance which pregnancies are going to miscarry, he wouldn't waste one of his precious immortal souls on something that will never be more than a half-inch mass of tissue - no, that can't be right either, or religious people wouldn't get so worked up about abortion.

And yes, what about identical twins, do they end up with half a soul each? My niece died when she was six hours old, did God create an immortal soul for her, and if so what will happen to that for the rest of eternity?

Like I say, completely mystified.

I'm sorry to hear about your niece... it's so horrible when children die.

FWIW, it's my understanding that (according to the Roman Catholic Church) the act of "quickening" is inherently miraculous, and the miracle involved is the creation of a new soul for each individual. There doesn't seem to be any particular limitation on what the act of "quickening" is as far as I know, so clones and in vitro are covered under the definition. Then again, I'm not the Pope, so don't take my comment as doctrine - it's just my recollection of the explanation I was given. :)

Regarding the death of an infant and it's ultimate destination, that's a topic of great controversy in Christianity, and one that is unresolved. (In fact it's one of the major differences between various sects of Christianity, and is even still debated within the Roman Catholic Church today.)

Some believe that an unbaptized childs soul goes to a "childrens limbo" - not a hellish place, but not a heavenly one, either. Others believe that children (below the age of reason) are immediately forgiven and are taken to heaven. ("Suffer the little children..." and other passages about sins of the parents not being passed along to the children, etc.)

Some Christian fundamentalists believe that if the child isn't baptized, they go to Hell. Of course, the only ones who take the fundamentalists seriously (besides themselves) are politicians and the press.

Some general info about the debate on infant baptism, etc., can be found here (http://www.cathinsight.com/apologetics/infant.htm).

[sphenisc]

Re

[The clone itself is the abomination. The temple represents the human body, and the desolation occurs with a clone, because it does not have a God-given soul]

Mr Millar's statement, as I read it, says that this particular clone doesn't have a God-given soul and is [therefore?] an abomination. This is not a general statement about the posession of God-given souls by clones.

[william1165]

Originally posted by sphenisc
Re

[The clone itself is the abomination. The temple represents the human body, and the desolation occurs with a clone, because it does not have a God-given soul]

Mr Millar's statement, as I read it, says that this particular clone doesn't have a God-given soul and is [therefore?] an abomination. This is not a general statement about the posession of God-given souls by clones.

He makes a general statement about how "desolation occurs with a clone", thus an abomination. My problem is that a clone is created using the same manual mechanism (not entirely biological) that creates a "test tube" baby. His premise is flawed, due to his apparent ignorance of biology.

[Gr8wight]

Originally posted by william1165
He makes a general statement about how "desolation occurs with a clone", thus an abomination. My problem is that a clone is created using the same manual mechanism (not entirely biological) that creates a "test tube" baby. His premise is flawed, due to his apparent ignorance of biology.

Mr. Millar's euchre deck is missing three jacks. I really wouldn't allow his statements to occupy any more of your time than they already have.

[LotusMegami]

This may not be quite on topic, but my boyfriend just sent me a short story he wrote for class based on an idea I gave him.

The story is about a sixteen-year-old girl, who is a very talented gymnast. Her parents become upset beyond all reason when she decides to stop competing.

She goes to visit her older brother at college. She asks him about their older sister, who died before she was born. Their parents destroyed all pictures of her. However, the brother was old enough to remember her.

The girl suspects that her parent's attitude has something to do with her older sister, who was also an excellent gymnast. Her brother decides that he has to tell her the truth.

"They loved her so much they couldn't let her go."



Do you think this could happen with children who are cloned from dead siblings? The parents want the new child to be like the first, and follow the same dreams as the first?

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Lotus,

Whats wrong with that? for them is a welcome miracle. The only bad thing in your history is when "they become upset beyond all reason". Dangerous parents, they should respect what she decides.

[Gr8wight]

Originally posted by LotusMegami
This may not be quite on topic, but my boyfriend just sent me a short story he wrote for class based on an idea I gave him.

The story is about a sixteen-year-old girl, who is a very talented gymnast. Her parents become upset beyond all reason when she decides to stop competing.

She goes to visit her older brother at college. She asks him about their older sister, who died before she was born. Their parents destroyed all pictures of her. However, the brother was old enough to remember her.

The girl suspects that her parent's attitude has something to do with her older sister, who was also an excellent gymnast. Her brother decides that he has to tell her the truth.

"They loved her so much they couldn't let her go."



Do you think this could happen with children who are cloned from dead siblings? The parents want the new child to be like the first, and follow the same dreams as the first?

Godsend (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0335121/)

[william1165]

It is as bad as the one person who spent $50,000 to clone her dead pet. Just think of what $50,000 would do for the local humane shelter.

But for the parent who wants their living daughter to aspire to the same things their older daughter did when she was alive is unreasonable. Each person is their own self, even if they are clones. Each will have different experiences. Talent is not necessarily innate (i.e., in the genes), and the interests may certainly be different.

[Roadtoad]

Look, just take my word for it: Millar is just one more kook with nothing better to do with his time than spew pseudospiritual filth which he slings with abandon at "unbelievers."

Please, bro, don't waste your time on a cowardly pr*** like that.