Hypothetical applications

[Timothy]

After lurking for awhile, decided to join and post.

Engineer in space sciences and remote sensing, Boulder, Colorado.

This question harkens back to an earlier post that was summarily dismissed--that of psychic animals.

The following two statements seem to indicate that the applicant or claimant must demonstrate the ability, without explicitly stating that the applicant or claimant is the person who possesses the ability.

"I, James Randi, through the JREF, will pay US$1,000,000 to any person who can demonstrate any psychic, supernatural or paranormal ability under satisfactory observing conditions."

"Applicant must state clearly in advance, and applicant and JREF will agree upon, what powers or abilities will be demonstrated, the limits of the proposed demonstration (so far as time, location and other variables are concerned) and what will constitute both a positive and a negative result."

And this statement could be interpreted either way, depending how legalistic you wanted to be.

"In all cases, applicant will be required to perform the preliminary test either before an appointed representative, if distance and time dictate that need, or in a location where a member of the JREF staff can attend. This preliminary test is to determine if the applicant is likely to perform as promised during a formal test."

So, let me pose the following two hypothetical questions for the discussion and amusement of all.

1) Would JREF in principle entertain an application where the applicant was a different person than the person with the ability? That is, it is the applicant that is doing the demonstration, showing that the ability exists in another person. (For the moment, neglect the motives of the two people involved.)

2) Would JREF in principle entertain an application in which the applicant claims his dog can correctly determine Zener cards (or similar) in controlled, double-blind, satisfactory observing conditions?

- Timothy

( I have no psychic dogs. I have no dogs of any kind.)

[jmercer]

I would guess "No" to the first - it's a contract, and it needs to be signed by the actual parties involved.

As far as the second one goes... I dunno, but I'll also guess "nope". :)

[Ashles]

Originally posted by Timothy
2) Would JREF in principle entertain an application in which the applicant claims his dog can correctly determine Zener cards (or similar) in controlled, double-blind, satisfactory observing conditions?
I would have thought yes. (I am assuming you mean identifying Zener cards before they can see them, not just going 'Yes, they're Zener card', although that would be impressive for a dog too).

I mean, I would have thought this would be a prefectly aceptable claim if it were a person claiming to do it, so even more so if it is a dog.


Are you saying from your initial lines that you can remote sense Timothy? If so we might have a few quesions for you.

[Timothy]

Originally posted by Ashles
Are you saying from your initial lines that you can remote sense Timothy? If so we might have a few quesions for you.

'When *I* use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.' -- Through The Looking Glass (And What Alice Found There).

I almost have a perverse temptation to string you along and tell you "yes" without including that I can do so with the help of the 60-cm aperture, 9-m focal length, graphite/cyanate ester and Zerodur, $60M satellite that I helped build.

The remote sensing community has nothing to do with the remote viewing community.

- Timothy

[drkitten]

Originally posted by Timothy

So, let me pose the following two hypothetical questions for the discussion and amusement of all.

1) Would JREF in principle entertain an application where the applicant was a different person than the person with the ability? That is, it is the applicant that is doing the demonstration, showing that the ability exists in another person. (For the moment, neglect the motives of the two people involved.)

2) Would JREF in principle entertain an application in which the applicant claims his dog can correctly determine Zener cards (or similar) in controlled, double-blind, satisfactory observing conditions?


In either case, I suspect it would be evaluated at least partially on a case-by-case basis. Considering the first one, I suspect the JREF would want to know why the applicant was a different person than the person with the ability. For example, if the applicant was somehow incompetent to apply on his/her own behalf, and the appropriate guardian/attorney did so, then I suspect it would be more acceptable than if I were just forcing someone off the street to read tea-leaves at gunpoint. Even something simple like the language barrier, I don't know how the JREF handles. If someone out there really genuinely doesn't speak English, but they have an interpreter to handle the details, how would the JREF be able to establish that there was a true mutual understanding of the conditions of the test?

I believe that the JREF has already accepted some tests where an applicant has claimed that his computer has certain predictive abilities -- for example, I might be able to write a computer program that takes your birthdate and full name and predicts something about you based on a combination of astrology and numerology.

So I suspect the most accurate answer would be -- ask JREF when it comes up.

[Ashles]

Originally posted by Timothy
'When *I* use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.' -- Through The Looking Glass (And What Alice Found There).

I almost have a perverse temptation to string you along and tell you "yes" without including that I can do so with the help of the 60-cm aperture, 9-m focal length, graphite/cyanate ester and Zerodur, $60M satellite that I helped build.

The remote sensing community has nothing to do with the remote viewing community.

- Timothy
Is the patronising tone entirely necessary?

Round here remote sense would usually be taken to mean some paranormal ability.

[Timothy]

You mistake my lighthearted banter.

I found your confusion in terminology between a fringe paranormal claim and an established field of engineering and science amusing enough to warrant a bit of levity.

Smilingly,

- Timothy

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Timothy
1) Would JREF in principle entertain an application where the applicant was a different person than the person with the ability? That is, it is the applicant that is doing the demonstration, showing that the ability exists in another person. (For the moment, neglect the motives of the two people involved.)
That's kind of a tough one. Certainly the person who is being tested would have to agree, but I can see loopholes. Say for example you are on really good terms with the Maharishi Mahatma Yogurt who tells you all his prophecies, which are amazingly accurate and detailed. You could surreptitiously submit these prophecies as your own and then, when they proved true, win the mill. Or perhaps you have broken the code for deciphering the prophecies of Nostradamus such that you can actually predict things in advance! (just the opposite of the way Nostradamus's prophecies are brought forth these days). They wouldn't be yours, but if the predictions were detailed and accurate, why couldn't you win the prize?

But I think it would be pretty rotten not to share the loot with the guy doing the actual work. ;)

Originally posted by Timothy
2) Would JREF in principle entertain an application in which the applicant claims his dog can correctly determine Zener cards (or similar) in controlled, double-blind, satisfactory observing conditions?
I can't see why not.

This would be sort of like bringing in a perpetual motion machine. Even if you built it, techically it would be the machine that is doing the paranormal, not you.

[Beleth]

Originally posted by Timothy
I found your confusion in terminology between a fringe paranormal claim and an established field of engineering and science amusing enough to warrant a bit of levity.Well, I got it and thought it was funny, anyway.

[KRAMER]

The applicant must be the person claiming the power, or claiming the ability to demonstrate the phenomenon in question. For example, an applicant can theoretically prove the existence of ghosts without have any supernatural powers. One does not need to possess psychic ability in order to prove its existence.

If an applicant is under the age of 18, a guardian or parent must sign on their behalf. This is the only circumstance in which the person NOT offering the demonstration is not required to be the person signing the application. So, we can test children, but a parent or guardian must sign the application on their behalf.

Regarding a dog reading Zener cards, we'd be asking a lot more questions before trying to decide if this was a paranormal claim or not. Without knowing more about the claim, it's impossible to state what the test might be.

We turn away plenty of dog tricks. Not paranormal. Show me a dog that can spell BEHOOVE, quote Shakespeare or Milton, or win an Oscar for best screenplay, and we'll hand over the million.

[Metullus]

Originally posted by KRAMER
The applicant must be the person claiming the power, or claiming the ability to demonstrate the phenomenon in question. For example, an applicant can theoretically prove the existence of ghosts without have any supernatural powers. One does not need to possess psychic ability in order to prove its existence.

If an applicant is under the age of 18, a guardian or parent must sign on their behalf. This is the only circumstance in which the person NOT offering the demonstration is not required to be the person signing the application. So, we can test children, but a parent or guardian must sign the application on their behalf.

Regarding a dog reading Zener cards, we'd be asking a lot more questions before trying to decide if this was a paranormal claim or not. Without knowing more about the claim, it's impossible to state what the test might be.

We turn away plenty of dog tricks. Not paranormal. Show me a dog that can spell BEHOOVE, quote Shakespeare or Milton, or win an Oscar for best screenplay, and we'll hand over the million.

Of course, if the dog could read and sign the application, would that not in and of itself be evidence of a paranormal ability? The dog's signature would need to be notarized, I suppose, which means it would need photo ID... maybe a drivers license?

[Timothy]

Originally posted by KRAMER
The applicant must be the person claiming the power, or claiming the ability to demonstrate the phenomenon in question. For example, an applicant can theoretically prove the existence of ghosts without have any supernatural powers. One does not need to possess psychic ability in order to prove its existence.

So I can't apply for the astrologer who said that doing it for money would taint the results? Awww. Dang!

(After only a few days here, I find myself automatically dipping into sarcasm as I've seen others do here. It's contagious.)


Show me a dog that can spell BEHOOVE, quote Shakespeare or Milton, or win an Oscar for best screenplay, and we'll hand over the million.

Including Hamlet's famous "Woof, woof" speech?

Besides, AMPAS gives awards for writing to the darndest things. A fictitious character was nominated for screenwriting in 2003 (Donald Kaufman), and in 1957, the Academy Award winner for Best Original Screenplay contained no dialogue.

[KRAMER]

Some days I just wanna go home and bite my pillow.

========================================

I am layers to remove a tooth or any single tooth with two fingers and a handkerchief without ningun esfuerso and causing ningun type of pain by means of a secret the merito is that anastesico use ningun nor tool and I do not make it in single two or three seconds of incredible way.

========================================

I need a lobotomy.

[jmercer]

Originally posted by KRAMER
Some days I just wanna go home and bite my pillow.

========================================

I am layers to remove a tooth or any single tooth with two fingers and a handkerchief without ningun esfuerso and causing ningun type of pain by means of a secret the merito is that anastesico use ningun nor tool and I do not make it in single two or three seconds of incredible way.

========================================

I need a lobotomy.

Well... if that's supposed to be an applicant's submission... I don't think that you are the one in dire need of a frontal lobotomy...

[Metullus]

Originally posted by jmercer
Well... if that's supposed to be an applicant's submission... I don't think that you are the one in dire need of a frontal lobotomy...

He might be willing to do the lobotomy instead.

[gtc]

How to pull a tooth out without the victim feeling any pain:


'Don't scream or I'll pull another one out'.


Should I put in an application?

[Peter Morris]

Originally posted by Timothy
1) Would JREF in principle entertain an application where the applicant was a different person than the person with the ability? That is, it is the applicant that is doing the demonstration, showing that the ability exists in another person. (For the moment, neglect the motives of the two people involved.)

Well, Tim,

IF you know a genuine psychic ...
AND you contact Randi to tell him about your friend ...
AND Randi issues a challenge to the psychic you name ....
AND the psychic takes up Randi's challenge ...
AND the psychic succeeds ...

If all that happens, then the psychic wins $1M ...

But YOU can claim a $50,000 finders fee.
http://www.mindspring.com/~anson/randi-hotline/1998/0012.html

KRAMER, how come you didn't know about this?

[Timothy]

Cool.

I'll get out my "psychic dowsing fork" and see if I can't snag me a psychic!

(You sneak up behind someone and poke him with the fork. If he didn't see it coming, he wasn't a psychic.)

"Ow!" [nope]
"Ow!" [nope]
"Ow!" [nope]
"Ow!" [nope]
"Owwwieeee!" [double nope]

I could do this all day!

- Timothy