Japanese study shows MMR not linked to autism

[Capsid]

This (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4311613.stm) was on the BBC news this morning.

The researchers from the Yokohama Rehabilitation Center and the Institute of Psychiatry looked at the incidence of autism spectrum disorders among 31,426 children up to the age of seven born from 1988 to 1996.
The research, also published in the Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry, found that the number of cases continued to rise after the MMR vaccination programme stopped.

This confirms a large Danish study which showed no change in autism rates before and after MMR introduction.

The only caveat to this study is that the Japanese MMR is not the same as the UK MMR (it differs in the strain of mumps virus).

And yet there is still a call for more research.

But Jackie Fletcher of the campaign group Jabs, said: "Instead of relying on research carried out abroad, we would like the government to actually clinically investigate the 1,700 children believed to have been affected by the MMR jab in the UK.

I can't think of what useful studies could be carried out on these 1700 UK children.

[Capsid]

Ah, Deetee beat me to it!

[Deetee]

:D

[Rolfe]

I can't fathom that Jackie Fletcher woman at all. I've heard her speak, and it seems quite plain that she really wants MMR to be dangerous at a very deep and needy level. I can only assume that she's invested so much time and energy in her campaign that she can't bear to face the fact that it's all been wasted.

What really amazes me about all this though is the sheer extent and scope of the impact that one person's biassed and flawed research has had. Wakefield had no evidence against MMR in the first place, that is no, none, nada, zilch, zero, zip. And yet almost singlehanded he has caused the most amazing degree of fear and alarm, disrupted vaccination schedules for probably hundreds of thousands of children, and had a profound effect on the lives of quite a number of them. He has also been responsible for an enormous waste of resources that could have been far better spent on good-quality research into what really might cause autism.

Another thing on the news last night was an interview with Bill and Melinda Gates who were talking about the scandal of the number of measles deaths still occurring in places like Africa, when there was an effective vaccine available, and how they wanted to try to do something about it. Now I don't have much time for that guy's products, but I can't argue about what he's doing with his money. It's just so incongruous, hearing this sort of common sense on one item, and then all this nonsense wittering about autism ten minutes later.

Rolfe.

[edthedoc]

And now in the UK we're seeing outbreaks of mumps and measles: illnesses that us docs were seeing so infrequently that new doctors were having to learn about them from textbooks only.

[Eos of the Eons]

ABC...codswollop again...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200503/s1314833.htm
The study cannot rule out the possibility that MMR may trigger autism in a very small number of children

I guess ABC still considers Wakefield a reliable source of information??????

[Darat]

The study cannot rule out the possibility that green pixies from the planet of the Furrypeople may trigger autism in a very small number of children....

[Rolfe]

The study cannot rule out the possibility that MMR may trigger autism in a very small number of childrenAre these guys completely stupid or what?

The whole point about Wakefield's work was that he (supposedly) got eight out of 12 kids in a row, from random GP referrals, with their autism (allegedly) triggered by MMR. He was never talking about a rare, tiny effect below the level of statistical noise, he was talking about an effect big enough to distort all the statistics there are.

So when it's proved that the statistics show no sign whatsoever of this effect, then by definition your case is kaput.

Rolfe.

[Darat]

Originally posted by Rolfe
Are these guys completely stupid or what?

The whole point about Wakefield's work was that he (supposedly) got eight out of 12 kids in a row, from random GP referrals, with their autism (allegedly) triggered by MMR. He was never talking about a rare, tiny effect below the level of statistical noice, he was talking about an effect big enough to distort all the statistics there are.

So when it's proved that the statistics show no sign whatsoever of this effect, then by definition your case is kaput.

Rolfe.

So you agree with me that this study doesn't rule out the possiblitity that there may be some cases caused by green pixies?

Tommorrow's Daily Mail Headline:







http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/std/mHead2.gif</p>
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
<font face="Times New Roman" size="7">SHOCK REPORT!</font></p>
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
<font face="Times New Roman" size="7">AUTISM MAY BE CAUSED BY GREEN PIXIES!</font></p>


ASTONISHING NEW REPORT does not rule out link between autism and green
pixies from the planet Furrypeople.</p>

[Brian the Snail]

Sorry Darat, but that's absolutely ridiculous. The Daily Mail would never print that.

It doesn't blame Tony Blair or bogus asylum seekers.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by edthedoc
And now in the UK we're seeing outbreaks of mumps and measles: illnesses that us docs were seeing so infrequently that new doctors were having to learn about them from textbooks only.

The son of one of my staff has caught mumps at college recently.

I keep asking, solicitously, whether "he can still ride his bike". Apparently no painful swellngs have, this far, occurred in the trouser department.

Thank you Dr Wakefield, may you be pilloried forever unless you apologise.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Brian the Snail
Sorry Darat, but that's absolutely ridiculous. The Daily Mail would never print that.

It doesn't blame Tony Blair or bogus asylum seekers.

I think you'll find the Mail takes a very firm line on asylum-seeking green pixies, so they have that base covered.

[malbui]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
I think you'll find the Mail takes a very firm line on asylum-seeking green pixies, so they have that base covered.
To be fair, I think you have to distinguish between the green pixies who are prepared to work hard, learn English and integrate into British society, and those who are simply coming to sponge off the benefits system and sell drugs to our children.

[Darat]

Originally posted by malbui
To be fair, I think you have to distinguish between the green pixies who are prepared to work hard, learn English and integrate into British society, and those who are simply coming to sponge off the benefits system and sell drugs to our children.

Oh you mean the ones whose children go on to be leader of the Conservative party? :D

[Dragonrock]

Originally posted by malbui
To be fair, I think you have to distinguish between the green pixies who are prepared to work hard, learn English and integrate into British society, and those who are simply coming to sponge off the benefits system and sell drugs to our children.

Does the color of the pixies matter? Does this apply to only green pixies or do the red, blue, perrywinkle, and yellow pixies get the same consideration?

[richardm]

But Jackie Fletcher of the campaign group Jabs, said: "Instead of relying on research carried out abroad, we would like the government to actually clinically investigate the 1,700 children believed to have been affected by the MMR jab in the UK.


Quite right! I don't know why we're bothering with all that nasty foreign research. I saw one of them on telly at lunchtime and he could hardly speak English.

Next thing they'll be coming over here and taking our research, if they're not too busy claiming benefits and propositioning our beautiful English Roses on streetcorners.

I didn't fight the Nips in World War 2 just to stand back and watch that happen. We need proper British research into this, not this cheap foreign muck.

Bloody foreigners.

And don't get me started on those Danish researchers, they're in Europe you know. Snouts firmly in the EU trough and probably both front trotters as well. And it's British taxpayers who fund the entire EU. And then they have the nerve to tell us that an Honest British GP made a mistake? I don't think so, Johnny Dane. I didn't fight in two world wars just so a Scandinavian can tell our fine medical personnel they're wrong.

As for them Pixies, well, you laugh about it now but give them an inch and before you know it we'll all be wearing pointy bloody hats and bells. Why, I went down to the supermarket last week and there wasn't a white face to be seen, it was green as far as the eye could see. Something really ought to be done about it.

After all, it's our children's future and the future of our Great Nation that we're talking about here.

[/Colonel DailyMailReader (rtd) MM, DFC and Bar, MFI]

[Darat]

Bloody hell RichardM is channeling that class-traitor Lynda Lee-Potter!

(She grew up in the same street as my Dad so I know what she was like as a little girl!)

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
The son of one of my staff has caught mumps at college recently.

I keep asking, solicitously, whether "he can still ride his bike". Apparently no painful swellngs have, this far, occurred in the trouser department.

Thank you Dr Wakefield, may you be pilloried forever unless you apologise. The son of my Managing Director ditto. His mother had never even heard of Wakefield or the MMR controversy, and wasn't best pleased when she found out.

The news media were saying that the epidemic of mumps in the universities was "nothing to do with the drop in MMR uptake", because these people weren't in the MMR target group anyway. Rubbish. They were a group who would normally not have been exposed to the diseases so long as the infections were kept out of the infant population. The direct cause of their infections is the upsurge of virus in the infants, which was directly caused by the drop in vaccine uptake.

Rolfe.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by richardm
Quite right! I don't know why we're bothering with all that nasty foreign research. I saw one of them on telly at lunchtime and he could hardly speak English.

I've heard exactly the same thing here in Denmark, both from anti-vacs and anti-cellphonies. It's merely a diversion tactics.

[patnray]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
ABC...codswollop again...

I guess ABC still considers Wakefield a reliable source of information??????

See sig...

[anonimouse]

Originally posted by Darat
The study cannot rule out the possibility that green pixies from the planet of the Furrypeople may trigger autism in a very small number of children....

This is actually a very salient point. For example, I had been bantering on with a number of anti-vaxers about the IOM report which essentially exonorates vaccines with regards to autism. Yet the response of the anti-vax community is almost uniformly two-fold:

-The research is tainted by money, financial interests, yada yada.
-The IOM report didn't say it was impossible that a subset of children could've gotten autism from the vaccine from some uber-rare genetic problem

And because of that, you can bet the anti-vaxers will ignore these studies or attempt to discredit them. As long as they can create any kind of shred of doubt (some of them now even go to the "well, vaccines are just one part of the problem" card) they can continue to propogate their mythology.

[Eos of the Eons]

You are tres cool patnray!

Good points sodakboy93...

And if that isn't bad enough, we have another collection of garbage from Fox too, more shreds of doubt for antivaccinators. They include the mouse study where mice had "changed" systems so that they were "damaged by mercury". The mice with the unchanged systems had no effect on them (they conveniently leave all this information out). How can they prove that it wasn't the change that caused the problems and not the vaccines administered? And are ALL autistic children changed the same way before they get their vaccines? NO.

The rest is just as bad...including a doctor who claims to use vaccines without thiomersol since the alternative vaccines are out there to use. Um. Don't all children's vaccines no longer have thiomersol?

http://www.autismnetworks.com/fox5.htm

[Kaylee]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
The son of one of my staff has caught mumps at college recently.

I keep asking, solicitously, whether "he can still ride his bike". Apparently no painful swellngs have, this far, occurred in the trouser department.

Thank you Dr Wakefield, may you be pilloried forever unless you apologise.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Originally posted by Rolfe

The son of my Managing Director ditto. His mother had never even heard of Wakefield or the MMR controversy, and wasn't best pleased when she found out.

The news media were saying that the epidemic of mumps in the universities was "nothing to do with the drop in MMR uptake", because these people weren't in the MMR target group anyway. Rubbish. They were a group who would normally not have been exposed to the diseases so long as the infections were kept out of the infant population. The direct cause of their infections is the upsurge of virus in the infants, which was directly caused by the drop in vaccine uptake.


Hmmm, I don't mean to hijack the thread -- but does this mean that adults should start taking mumps vacinations also? Since not enough infants are taking the MMR vaccines to keep the mump disease out of the population?

Shera

[Eos of the Eons]

Thing is, most older folks have had mumps already and have protection? I'm not sure how long "natural" immunity lasts.

The younger populations are at highest risk of complications when it comes to getting the diseases. Thus, it is better to vaccinate them for lifelong protection and as a preventative measure to getting disease complications. The older people getting the disease is not as much of a worry if they haven't had the disease before.

The idea is to stop the disease in the younger populations via vaccination, and that will also prevent them from getting the disease later in life as well. If things were done this way, then the older population who haven't had the disease or the vaccine would be protected by herd immunity.

Should we stop relying on this and just vaccinated the older folks that haven't been exposed to the disease? I don't know. If the nutters would stop harping on the lies about vaccines then the younger population would be protected...thing is they are not getting vaccinated anymore.

Even if we started vaccinating the older populations the younger more vulnerable children would still be harmed by the disease because they would be spreading it around to each other.

There really is no point to vaccinate older people then.

[Zep]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
ABC...codswollop again...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200503/s1314833.htm


I guess ABC still considers Wakefield a reliable source of information?????? Now Eos, please be careful!

The "ABC" you refered to is the Australian ABC network, which is no connection whatsoever with the US ABC network. It is actually the equivalent of Canadian CBC or the BBC in the UK. They are quite conservative and usually very straight up in their news reports, actually. In fact, other sections of the ABC are the skeptics' friends locally.

If you look at the bottom of the report referenced, you see that it is actually obtained from "AFP". That's Reuters, the international news agency. If it was a local reporter, they would be named with a by-line at the top. And the tone and content of the article suggests it is not entirely a local product either.

I need a finger-wagging smilie at this point!

[Zep]

Originally posted by patnray
See sig... Wrong ABC in this case. Sorry!

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Shera
Hmmm, I don't mean to hijack the thread -- but does this mean that adults should start taking mumps vacinations also? Since not enough infants are taking the MMR vaccines to keep the mump disease out of the population?

Shera

I will confess to a vested interest here. I never had mumps and am too old to have had the vaccine. More than once I've thought of getting vaccinated and that thought has resurfaced!

[richardm]

Just yesterday there was some interest in the press because the entire Tranmere Rovers football team went up to be vaccinated against mumps after one of their players went down with it. And they were given the MMR vaccine, in fact.

So perhaps we should all be considering it.

[geni]

Originally posted by richardm
Just yesterday there was some interest in the press because the entire Tranmere Rovers football team went up to be vaccinated against mumps after one of their players went down with it. And they were given the MMR vaccine, in fact.

So perhaps we should all be considering it.

They are offering it at universities so I've had mine.

[Rolfe]

The "adults" at greatest risk are those living and working in close proximity, such as university students. I suppose footballers in training come into that category too. As Geni said, these groups are already being targeted by vaccination campaigns.

I don't think people living in the general community are at any serious risk, unless they're living with MMR refusenik children.

Rolfe (still wondering why BSM is so all-fired worried, he's got two kids anyway....)

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Rolfe
Rolfe (still wondering why BSM is so all-fired worried, he's got two kids anyway....)

I just bought myself a new bike and I want to be able to ride it!!


My new velocipede is what prompted the thread on bikes, BTW.

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by Zep
Now Eos, please be careful!

If you look at the bottom of the report referenced, you see that it is actually obtained from "AFP". That's Reuters, the international news agency. If it was a local reporter, they would be named with a by-line at the top. And the tone and content of the article suggests it is not entirely a local product either.

I need a finger-wagging smilie at this point!

Why does your ABC post the story then? The rotters need a disclaimer (you know the kind that says "we don't necessarily support the viewpoint...blah blah) :p

There are better stories on the topic that they could have had in its place.

[Zep]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
Why does your ABC post the story then? The rotters need a disclaimer (you know the kind that says "we don't necessarily support the viewpoint...blah blah) :p

There are better stories on the topic that they could have had in its place. No, they don't need a disclaimer. It's not a private organisation, and it's not an editorial. Just a newsfeed from Reuters.

Sure, there's plenty of other sources WE think would be better, but not what Reuters think are newsworthy. Emphasis on that last word, btw.

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by Zep

Sure, there's plenty of other sources WE think would be better, but not what Reuters think are newsworthy. Emphasis on that last word, btw.

Sigh, for sure. That's the problem. Sometimes I really hate the media, but it's so darn necessary to have the media. Not much one can do, but whine. Can I have some cheese with my whine?

[Beausoleil]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons

[B]Thing is, most older folks have had mumps already and have protection? I'm not sure how long "natural" immunity lasts.



I had mumps for the second time a couple of years ago, 30 years after the first time I had it. Only a mild version though, I'm pleased to say.

[Zep]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
Sigh, for sure. That's the problem. Sometimes I really hate the media, but it's so darn necessary to have the media. Not much one can do, but whine. Can I have some cheese with my whine? Indeedy! And closer than you think...

http://www.australianwineexperience.com/home.html

[Dragon]

Originally posted by Zep
Indeedy! And closer than you think...

http://www.australianwineexperience.com/home.html A lot of people in this country pooh-pooh Australian table wines. This is a pity as many fine Australian wines appeal not only to the Australian palate but also to the cognoscenti of Great Britain. (http://www.phespirit.info/montypython/australian_table_wines.htm)

[CFLarsen]

Australia has lots of dependable sun, good soil, rain and reasonable hillsides to make great wine. And they do - now. Australian wines were crap years ago. Today, some of them are top of the heap.

[Zep]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Australia has lots of dependable sun, good soil, rain and reasonable hillsides to make great wine. And they do - now. Australian wines were crap years ago. Today, some of them are top of the heap. No, we simply exported the crap years ago. Kept the good stuff to ourselves. Now it's the other way round. Although there's a lot of Chateau Cardboard still being sold, at least it tends to be less of the rough, fighting wine and more of the top stuff.

http://winebusiness.com/images/Admin/Cask%203D%20Illustrations%20(1).jpg

[Zep]

Originally posted by Dragon
A lot of people in this country pooh-pooh Australian table wines. This is a pity as many fine Australian wines appeal not only to the Australian palate but also to the cognoscenti of Great Britain. (http://www.phespirit.info/montypython/australian_table_wines.htm) Wagga Wagga, please!

And thanks, Bruce! :D

[Eos of the Eons]

:D MMM wine!

How about a really good cheese that is made from goat's milk or something other than cow's milk. I'm allergic to cow's milk. I can't find a good tasting non-cowmilk cheese that melts nice on pizza.

[Dragon]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
:D MMM wine!

How about a really good cheese that is made from goat's milk or something other than cow's milk. I'm allergic to cow's milk. I can't find a good tasting non-cowmilk cheese that melts nice on pizza. Well, proper Feta cheese is made from sheep's milk - have you tried that? I would recommend Welsh goat's cheese, it's nice grilled on toast so it should work with pizza.

Treat yourself to a bottle of Australian red wine to go with it. :D

[Zep]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
:D MMM wine!

How about a really good cheese that is made from goat's milk or something other than cow's milk. I'm allergic to cow's milk. I can't find a good tasting non-cowmilk cheese that melts nice on pizza. Yes, goats milk cheese is excellent, and it tastes damn fine on its own too. Mmmmm...!

Aussie sample (http://www.centrafinefoods.com.au/pub_browse.asp?cat=654&path=13,654)

Toronto says... (http://www.nowtoronto.com/issues/2001-05-03/goods_foodsecret.html) try here! (http://woolwichdairy.com/)

[Deetee]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
:D MMM wine!

How about a really good cheese that is made from goat's milk or something other than cow's milk. I'm allergic to cow's milk. I can't find a good tasting non-cowmilk cheese that melts nice on pizza.

This is the saddest thing I've heard all day.
(Well, almost, if you exclude the news that penta water advertisers are up to their old tricks again).
Eos, I dunno how you could cope without pizza. I nominate you for an award for bravery of the highest order in the face of severe adversity.

On second thoughts it is definitely sadder than penta water.
:(

[Zep]

Eos, without wanting to be TOO skeptical, get the cows milk allergy thing checked out again carefully, if you haven't already. Such an allergy exists, but it is WAY less common than many people think it is. You need to be VERY careful not to confuse allergy to "milk" with a number of other causal factors.

I was "diagnosed" with a number of allergies causing my athsma when young that were pretty much based on speculative shots-in-the-dark by a half-trained quack. Milk was one of those he singled out. Turned out I was REALLY highly allergic to grass-seeds, dust-mite and raw egg-white. So if I had a chocolate egg-flip sitting outside on the back step while Dad mowed, just after having a pillow-fight with my younger brothers, it was "the milk" that gave me athsma... ;) (true story!)

[Eos of the Eons]

Yeah, I had the tests where they inject the allergens up your arm and then watch to see what causes bumps. Dairy caused a big bump, and so did cat. Not chocolate though! Dust and dust mites did. Dog did a little, half as much as cat. No allergies to pollens or grass though.

I can cut grass and lay in it and throw it about. I don't get the seasonal allergies that others suffer through. I also never had asthma.

And, if I eat too much dairy, I get a nice rash of hives and water blisters that make me want to scream.

I had the testing because my skin was cracking and I had severe rashes all over my face and arms. I was looking like a circus freak. I loved dairy. I ate it all day long! It was tough to give up. It was so worth it when my skin cleared up though.

I can restrict myself to a serving of dairy every three days or so, I still love ice cream. I'm willing to put up with the resulting few water blisters where they pop up in order to enjoy ice cream or yogurt every few days. I just put on some cortisone cream or take an antihistamine if I overdo it.

[Phaycops]

Eos,
The reason that goat cheese and feta and all that don't melt so good on pizza isn't because they're made of milk other than cow's milk -- it's because of the way they're made. I'll check up when I get back to the hotel later for all the facts. In any event, if you can find a mozzarella-style cheese made from goat's milk, it should melt better. I don't have any idea if such things exist, though. I did a quick google search and didn't find anything, but then I didn't really look very hard. Another option for pizza cheese, at least, is to use vegan (non-dairy) cheese. You can cover up the not-really-chesse flavor with toppings, I guess. I'm not sure, but I think they tend to melt fairly convincingly. Good luck! BTW, I had that horrible allergy test, too. Awful, torture, nasty, terrible.

[Hydrogen Cyanide]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
..I can restrict myself to a serving of dairy every three days or so, I still love ice cream. I'm willing to put up with the resulting few water blisters where they pop up in order to enjoy ice cream or yogurt every few days. I just put on some cortisone cream or take an antihistamine if I overdo it.

My sister is lactose intolerant (completely different from an allergy, I think even goat's and sheep milk give her indegestion)... she enjoys Tofuti, an ice cream substitute made with tofu. Though, even still she has to be careful. She has other allergies (like most of us in our family), and soy is one of the top ten food allergens.

[Eos of the Eons]

Thanks Phaycops. I've tried nearly everything. There is a soy cheese that melts nice, but the flavor is not good at all. I've found no good substitute for mozza :( My local stores have no good goat's milk cheeses either, and the people running the places are no help.

HCN, I feel for your sister. Many adults get lactose inotolerant. We have a shut off system for the body's production of lactase since most animals don't consume milk after infancy. If any of us stops dairy for 2 weeks or so, you are at risk of triggering the shut off system.

I'm now lactose intolerant as well. I guess then even goat's milk might not be a great idea, but my lactose intolerance only gives me bad gas, so it's not too too bad...if I don't eat around company...my family will have to just open a window...:D

Those alternative ice creams just aren't up to par either :( They are also so much more expensive.

Sigh. It's like being forced to eat a nice healthy diet, lol. Cows get their calcium from greens...so I must as well along with a calcium supplement. But I LOOOOVE ice cream and pizza and yogurt and ....

Anybody making a good, cost effective, substitute out there is going to make a bundle!

[Hydrogen Cyanide]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
[B...HCN, I feel for your sister. Many adults get lactose inotolerant. ...

Sigh. It's like being forced to eat a nice healthy diet, lol. Cows get their calcium from greens...so I must as well along with a calcium supplement. But I LOOOOVE ice cream and pizza and yogurt and ....

Anybody making a good, cost effective, substitute out there is going to make a bundle! [/B]

My sister was born that way... she was born VERY premature and it is remarkable that she even survived. She grew up in the 1960's explaining often that she could NOT drink milk. Now as an adult she is tall, slim beautiful and very healthy. erg.

Oh... and to be unfair... I now have to reduce all sorts of yummy stuff because my cholestoral is too high. While dear hubby (who comes from a Dutch family where every thing is cooked in a pool of butter) has LOW cholestoral. Everyone here gets pepperoni pizza... and I get a salad. sigh

[Hydrogen Cyanide]

Just to pull this thread back on track... only a little bit:
http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.cfm?headline=s1i7631

[Eos of the Eons]

Salad while everyone else eats pizza? Aye Caramba!

That link is hilarious btw :D

[Kaylee]

Anybody making a good, cost effective, substitute out there is going to make a bundle


Well it is pricey compared to regular milk and some of my friends complain that it tastes too sweet, but there is a lactose free milk (http://www.lactaid.com/products/index.jhtml?id=lactaid/products/products.inc) available. The same company also makes lactase enzyme pills.

I love those pills, thanks to them I can still have a milk shake every once in a while.

[Eos of the Eons]

Those are awesome for those who just have lactose intolerance. I'm talking about non-dairy alternatives that are just as tasty and not twice as expensive as the dairy products.

I'm stuck trying expensive tofu, rice, and soy ice creams and cheeses.

They don't taste good. They just aren't as yummy as dairy. I could take antihistamines, but those are expensive and the non-drowsy kinds just make me loopy.

And where are those fluffy hypoallergenic cats that don't cost a gazillion dollars?

Stupid allergies.

[Kaylee]

That sounds really frustrating. I don't like most soy products either. One exception though -- have you tried Silk's Chocolate Soymilk? That tastes good! Pricey though -- USA$2.00 a quart. I drink that every once in a while instead of reaching for a candy bar.

[Eos of the Eons]

Nah, hubby wants stuff to use on cereal if we are going to spend money. He's lactose intolerant. He stinks me out of the house when he indulges in dairy...doesn't bother with the handy pills you mentioned...phewfy.

We use soy milk. Just try making pudding with it. Hmph.

[Zep]

Eos, you do know that milk is in a lot of food products you may not have been aware of? Any chocolate you eat contains milk (unless it's 100% chocolate!), even carob contains milk (plain carob is FOUL!) - easy ones. But there's also milk in most canned soups, dried milk in packet soups and sauces and instant packet meals, etc. Milk casein is used even in some household glues.

Just a question: Have you tried the milk from cows from a completely different area of the country? Is there any variation in your response to dairy products from different areas of the country?

[Eos of the Eons]

Yeah Zep, that's why I limit any more direct dairy. I Read a lot of labels and select more tomato based side dishes and such (skip Alfredos and creamy selections). Since foods come from all over, it doesn't make a difference. If I overdo any type of dairy in a day, then I pay the price.

I just had soy milk in my Raisin Bran. I guess when you compare the soy to the skim milk, it's not so bad.

[Phaycops]

HI Eos,
Here's the scientific lowdown on why your goat-cheese pizza doesn't get all gooey and melty.

From: McGee, Harold, 2004. On Food and Cooking. Scribner, New York, NY, pp. 64-65.

There are several kinds of cheese that do not melt on heating: they simply get drier and stiffer. These include Indian panner and latin queso blanco, Italian ricotta, and most fresh goat cheeses; all of them are curdled exclusively by means of acid, not rennet. Rennet creates a malleable structure of large casein micelles held together by relatively few calcium atoms and hydrophobic bonds, so this structure is readily weakened by heat. Acid, on the other hand, dissolves the calcium glue that holds the casein proteins together in micelles, and it elimates each protein's negative electrical charge, which would otherwise cause the proteins to repel each other. THese proteins are free to flock together and bond extensively into microscopic clumps. So when an acid curd is heated, the first thing to be shaken loose is not the proteins, but the water: the water boils away, and this simply dries out and concentrates the protein even further. T his is why firm paneer and queso blanco can be simmered or fried like meat, and goat cheeses and ricotta maintain their shape on pizzas or in pasta stuffings.

There you have it. Like I said, if you can find a mozzarella-style goat's milk cheese, which is made with rennet, it should melt fine. I don't know if such things exist, though. Good luck!

[edited for grammar.]

[Deetee]

Originally posted by Phaycops
THese proteins are free to flock together and bond extensively

Typical -
Even the ruddy cheeses are at it.

[Eos of the Eons]

Thank you Phaycops. I didn't even think to look up why most cheese alternatives don't melt nicely. That totally blew me away!

[Zep]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
Yeah Zep, that's why I limit any more direct dairy. I Read a lot of labels and select more tomato based side dishes and such (skip Alfredos and creamy selections). Since foods come from all over, it doesn't make a difference. If I overdo any type of dairy in a day, then I pay the price.

I just had soy milk in my Raisin Bran. I guess when you compare the soy to the skim milk, it's not so bad. Milk ingredients are not always obvious - they don't have to be "creamy". FYI, tinned tomato soups and tomato "Supreme" contain anything up to 10% dairy (to give them a smooth texture).

How are you with products that contain dairy that has been (significantly) cooked? Eg. breads, puddings, etc?

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by Zep
Milk ingredients are not always obvious - they don't have to be "creamy". FYI, tinned tomato soups and tomato "Supreme" contain anything up to 10% dairy (to give them a smooth texture).

How are you with products that contain dairy that has been (significantly) cooked? Eg. breads, puddings, etc?

Yep, that's why I avoid anything obvious, so I don't overdose. Pizza is a no-no, and it's easy to tell if I've had too much. A rash breaks out and I either wait it out or grab some antihistamines. I don't eat puddings or bread either. Most bread I've seen is made with water though. The stuff I bake calls for water only, no milk.

I showed a mild allergy to eggs, but got the flu shot okay this year with no problems.

Thing is, avoiding the allergens in large quantities has helped my skin so much. I used to have a chronic problem. It's a reward to have skin that isn't driving me crazy!