Terrorist Martyr, American Style

[Jedi Knight]

Rachel Corrie served an evil cause, and paid the price. (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=6966)

http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/Homepage/RachelCorrieDeath.gif

JK

[Q-Source]

Jedi,

You are mean and despicable even with your own people.

[Crossbow]

Jedi Knight has never met a woman killer that he did not like.

[Ian Osborne]

Jedi, have you ever met a woman? In real life, I mean?

Polythene Pauline and Vinyl Vera don't count...

[Pyrrho]

JK, you are in the wrong on this one. I suggest that you self-edit and remove the photographs of that murder, if only out of common courtesy. You weren't there; you don't know what causes she served; she certainly didn't deserve that gruesome, violent death.

[Tricky]

Jedi,
The link you provide to that ultra-right rag called her a terrorist. Some terrorist. Unarmed, she stood in highly visible clothing to try to prevent bulldozers from knocking down the homes of civilians. The brave bulldozer operator drove right over her.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/16/rafah.death/index.html

Of course, anyone who disagrees with you deserves to die, especially if they are female, right Jedi?

[LTC8K6]

Just like all propaganda, what happened depends on who you ask. It seems clear that the bulldozer couldn't have run "directly" over her from the photos and from the fact that she was still able to talk. She does seem to be buried in the second photo on CNN, and in JK's photo on the right, it looks like she has been dug out.


"Other witnesses, however, reported that Corrie had scaled a pile of dirt but then lost her footing and fell backward behind it, out of sight of the bulldozer operator. The bulldozer continued moving forward, covering Corrie with dirt and then crushing her. "

[Q-Source]

Someone should remove those pictures and post a link instead.

Where is Denise the Moderator?

Uuups, I forgot that she loves Jedi :rolleyes:

[Fade]

Red Square and cop killer Mumia Abu-Jamal has been a commencement speaker.

Wow, this paper is leaning over further than any I have EVER seen.

When Mumia was set to do the speech (he never did), just about the entire student body was against it. At least half of the graduating class said they would not attend if he spoke at commencement.

[Q-Source]

Jedi,

I just sent a report of this thread.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Q-Source
Jedi,

I just sent a report of this thread.

Awesome! I love it when leftists give my threads one star. It means the truth is hammering away at them.

BTW, that picture above is open-source media information, as well as the article. 1st Amendment, hon. Pretty incredible staring at real leftism, isn't it? Not something the leftist global media would print, I will give you that. (not the make-believe leftism that leftists try to say exists, you know, the "enlightenment" type).

But hey, complain away, snitch! That is un-democracy in action, and fully expected from you.

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Q-Source
Jedi,

You are mean and despicable even with your own people.

The only thing that matters to me is my country, just to clarify.

JK

[Megalodon]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
Rachel Corrie served an evil cause, and paid the price.

JK

Have you been sucking on tail pipes again??

[Q-Source]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


The only thing that matters to me is my country, just to clarify.

JK

You mean an empty country?

or a country full of men only?

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Q-Source


You mean an empty country?

or a country full of men only?

You wouldn't understand. What I am talking about isn't in a feminist victimization pseudo-logic textbook.

JK

[Q-Source]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


You wouldn't understand. What I am talking about isn't in a feminist victimization pseudo-logic textbook.



That reminds me something...

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Q-Source


That reminds me something...

What, you have your feminist text-book standing by and are reading it now for answers?

JK

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight

You wouldn't understand. What I am talking about isn't in a feminist victimization pseudo-logic textbook.

JK
Well it's not in mine anyway. Damn! Did those greedy publishers print another edition so we pseudo-logical feminists would have to go out and buy a new one? I hate it when they do that.

[hal bidlack]

In response to repeated reports, I have looked at this thread. I feel this issue is a tricky one. While the picture is disturbing, I do not believe it to be very graphic. While some blood is visible, it is not exceptionally gory. I have, therefore, decided to allow this picture to stay uncensored.

On a personal level, I find JK's posting of it offensive and his logic behind his reasoning flawed. But that does not impact his right to post.

Were the picture larger, with more detail visible (e.g., the pictures I removed of the American war dead), I would likely require only a link be used.

[Megalodon]

Originally posted by hal bidlack
Were the picture larger, with more detail visible (e.g., the pictures I removed of the American war dead), I would likely require only a link be used.

I disagree with your decision, but respect it anyway.

Cheers

[Q-Source]

Originally posted by hal bidlack
In response to repeated reports, I have looked at this thread. I feel this issue is a tricky one. While the picture is disturbing, I do not believe it to be very graphic. While some blood is visible, it is not exceptionally gory. I have, therefore, decided to allow this picture to stay uncensored.

On a personal level, I find JK's posting of it offensive and his logic behind his reasoning flawed. But that does not impact his right to post.

Were the picture larger, with more detail visible (e.g., the pictures I removed of the American war dead), I would likely require only a link be used.

So Hal. Does that mean that it is o.k. if we post small-size pictures of dead people?

Are you saying that the size of a picture makes the difference?

Check the subtitle "Rachel Corrie served an evil cause, and paid the price." Jedi's message is that anyone who serves a cause different to his, deserves to be killed. That is disgusting and promotes violence.

Q-S

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by hal bidlack
In response to repeated reports, I have looked at this thread. I feel this issue is a tricky one. While the picture is disturbing, I do not believe it to be very graphic. While some blood is visible, it is not exceptionally gory. I have, therefore, decided to allow this picture to stay uncensored.

On a personal level, I find JK's posting of it offensive and his logic behind his reasoning flawed. But that does not impact his right to post.

Were the picture larger, with more detail visible (e.g., the pictures I removed of the American war dead), I would likely require only a link be used.

Hi Hal, the only thing that the article teaches is that American students have allied themselves with terrorist organizations and other dangerous groups, even going as far as to travel to other countries to assist them with their agendas.

I felt it was important to link the article so folks could know that to be a radical like that there is a chance they could get killed while they were overseas.

In America, Americans tolerate the radical left much more than countries do overseas, and in America, leftist college students can protest their own country and align themselves with terrorists with few to none calls for responsibility. To be a college student on the radical left requires a certain level of irresponsibility, as the article proves.

That was the point of linking of the article.

JK

[Ben Shniper]

We shouldn't be demonizing this poor deluded girl just because she happened to be a patsy for Islamic Jihad.

Her group was found shelterring senior Islamic Jihad terrorists in their offices. When pressed, they said they just let him in because he was being shot at. Yeah right.

Reuters lied and said she was "murderred", but it's pictures were shown out of order and mislabled. Noone had a camera at the time, near nightfall, the incident happened. Yet Reuters lied and claimed the pictures were genuine anyway. Par for the lies continuously spread about Israel.

GOTCHA!
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0303/corrie.asp


less important information.

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0303/prager1.asp

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0303/vincent1.asp

-Ben

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Q-Source


So Hal. Does that mean that it is o.k. if we post small-size pictures of dead people?

Are you saying that the size of a picture makes the difference?

Check the subtitle "Rachel Corrie served an evil cause, and paid the price." Jedi's message is that anyone who serves a cause different to his, deserves to be killed. That is disgusting and promotes violence.

Q-S

Wrong again. The "Rachel Corrie served an evil cause, and paid the price." article idenitifier (http://www.frontpagemag.com/) was taken from the same article. It is the first article on that site now.

Q, your undemocratic tendancies are pretty childish. If a group of children made some pipe-bombs and blew themselves up with them, is it appropriate to educate others about that stupidity in the population? You bet it is. That is what democracy is all about. When people do stupid things, other people write articles about it to try and convince the unknowing that what happened was wrong, and even more so, dangerous.

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Q-Source
Jedi's message is that anyone who serves a cause different to his, deserves to be killed. That is disgusting and promotes violence.

Q-S

That is just downright nasty. I wasn't even aware that I had a "cause". What is my "cause"?

The only good movement, to me anyway, is a bowel movement. Is that what you were referring to Q?

JK

[hal bidlack]

yes, the size and resolution of the picture are significant. I wish to moderate with as gentle a hand as possible. Thus, I want to remove things only as they become clearly in breach of the rules on violence. Stare Decisis, I think.

But this is cleary an area where my subjective judgement in most exposed. If you strongly differ with me, you may certainly appeal to Linda or then Randi, who may instantly overrule me on any forum matter.

[corplinx]

I dont think rabid israelis are dumb enough to run over an american when someone is flsahing pictures 10 friggin feet away. Something about the "run over intentionally" story doesnt ring true.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Ben Shniper
We shouldn't be demonizing this poor deluded girl just because she happened to be a patsy for Islamic Jihad.

Her group was found shelterring senior Islamic Jihad terrorists in their offices. When pressed, they said they just let him in because he was being shot at. Yeah right.

Reuters lied and said she was "murderred", but it's pictures were shown out of order and mislabled. Noone had a camera at the time, near nightfall, the incident happened. Yet Reuters lied and claimed the pictures were genuine anyway. Par for the lies continuously spread about Israel.

GOTCHA!
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0303/corrie.asp



how do you know that she was 'a poor deluded girl'?

I had already seen the pictures and saw that they were as they were labelled, a shot of her protesting, not necessarily at the same time she was killed, and a picture of her injured. It was never implied to me that she was about to be run over in the first picture.

As for the lies spread about israel, have you read what the US has been saying about Israeli human rights abuses?

The fact is, she was run over, by a bulldozer demolishing people's houses. What makes it worse for these people is that it is just about impossible to actually get a building permit to build a new house for palestinians.

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=cache:TlhYno1_n88C:www.jerusalemwatch.org/facts/hdem.htm+palestinian+building+permits&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

http://www.peacenow.org/news/docs/myth.htm

http://www.btselem.org/English/Planning_&_Building/index.asp

A clever tactic. Don't kill many people just slowly squeeze the life out of them. Then it doesn't make the front pages of the newspapers.



Planning and Building in the Occupied Territories


Over the past three decades of occupation, Israel has employed in the West Bank a policy of planning, development, and building that severely restricts construction by Palestinians, while allocating broad expanses of land to establish and expand Jewish settlements. In this way, Israel has created a situation in which thousands of Palestinians are unable to obtain permits to build on their land, and are compelled to build without a permit because they have no other way to provide shelter for their families.

Israel froze planning in Palestinian towns and villages. The existing planning schemes, which date back fifty years and more, serve as the basis for approval - more often rejection - of applications for building permits. Land registration has been frozen for thirty years, making it easy to deny applications for permits on the grounds of failure to prove ownership of the land. Israel administers the building authorities, which have no Palestinian representation. A Palestinian wanting to obtain a building permit to build on his land in Area C [that part of the West Bank which remains under complete Israeli control] must undergo a prolonged, complicated, and expensive procedure, which generally results in denial of the application.

In this situation, and with no option, many Palestinians are compelled to build without a permit. The construction is not a political act or an act of protest. Rather, the construction is the only way left to them to provide housing for themselves and their families.

Rather than change this situation, Israel has adopted a policy of mass demolition of Palestinian houses. In the past ten years, the authorities have demolished more than 2,200 residences, leaving more than 13,000 Palestinians homeless. This policy continues today in Area C.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by corplinx
I dont think rabid israelis are dumb enough to run over an american when someone is flsahing pictures 10 friggin feet away. Something about the "run over intentionally" story doesnt ring true.
Very likely, you are correct in this, corplinx. However, it was pretty obvious that the woman was trying to interpose her body between the bulldozers and the civilians' houses. The driver may have tried to drive around her, but he certainly didn't back off.

Some of you may recall the student who stood in front of a tank in Tiananmen Square in 1989. Do you think the tank should have run over him for opposing authority? In what way is this different from the principled stand taken by Rachel Corrie? Is it because in one case you agree with the authority and in another you dont?

This woman died defending what she believed in, which was, in her mind, the right of people to keep their homes. Perhaps she was foolish, but don't let anyone say she wasn't brave. Maybe all heroes are both brave and foolish.

[EvilYeti]

My take is that anyone deliberately standing in the path of heavy machinery is making a very foolish personal decision, regardless of the circumstances.

I find it ironic to note that such protests only (mostly) work with the Israelies, as they have some respect for human life. The palestinians are the ones deliberately murdering civillians, remember?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by EvilYeti
My take is that anyone deliberately standing in the path of heavy machinery is making a very foolish personal decision, regardless of the circumstances.

I find it ironic to note that such protests only (mostly) work with the Israelies, as they have some respect for human life. The palestinians are the ones deliberately murdering civillians, remember?

and you'll win the lottery one day and lost weight. If you take such a simplistic view of the world, you will be ignorant of much that happens.

[EvilYeti]

Please give one (1) example of the Israeli military deliberately, with malice of forethought, targeting and murdering innocent Palestinians.

Please give one (1) example of when it would NOT be foolish to stand in the path of heavy machinery with the goal of disrupting its progress.

Simple, no?

Originally posted by a_unique_person


and you'll win the lottery one day and lost weight. If you take such a simplistic view of the world, you will be ignorant of much that happens.

[subgenius]

Originally posted by Crossbow
Jedi Knight has never met a woman killer that he did not like.
The slimebag is a sorry excuse for a human. Big brave soldier boy afraid of matriarchal terrorists. How pathetic.
He's beneath contempt.

[subgenius]

Originally posted by hal bidlack

On a personal level, I find JK's posting of it offensive ....
He respects no one's opinion but his own.

[subgenius]

I will drop in from time to time but will no longer contribute to the forum. I am off to pursue a forum where there is less hate and hopefully more people who share my views and beliefs.

Jedi "There is a God" Knight 11-12-02

And a lying weasel coward.
He's the one full of hate and obviously can't find anyone who shares his "views and beliefs." Thankfully.
Got a lot of friends I bet, and girlfriends. Watch the news for this worm to go berserk someday.

[ImpyTimpy]

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/02/13/1044927742107.html

IDF using flachette shells for example. If you ask me both sides are pretty sick in terms of trying to hurt the other. One side blows up bombs with nails, the other blows up shells with darts...

Originally posted by EvilYeti
Please give one (1) example of the Israeli military deliberately, with malice of forethought, targeting and murdering innocent Palestinians.

Please give one (1) example of when it would NOT be foolish to stand in the path of heavy machinery with the goal of disrupting its progress.

Simple, no?

[subgenius]

Regarding tolerating hate and violence advocates like worm-boy: All it takes for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing.

[Segnosaur]

Just wondering....

Has the reason for buldozing the house ever been made public? I had heard rumours that this 'house' actually served as one end of a tunnel through the border, where weapons could be smuggled in from Egypt. But, I don't know how 'official' that report was.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by EvilYeti
Please give one (1) example of the Israeli military deliberately, with malice of forethought, targeting and murdering innocent Palestinians.

Please give one (1) example of when it would NOT be foolish to stand in the path of heavy machinery with the goal of disrupting its progress.

Simple, no?


http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story760.html

http://www.amnesty.org.il/reports/MDE_2.html

http://web.amnesty.org/web%5Cweb.nsf/printpages/ttt3_security

http://www.harpers.org/online/gaza_diary/?pg=1



Sunday afternoon, June 17, the dunes

sit in the shade of a palm-roofed hut on the edge of the dunes, momentarily defeated by the heat, the grit, the jostling crowds, the stench of the open sewers and rotting garbage. A friend of Azmi's brings me, on a tray, a cold glass of tart, red carcade juice.

Barefoot boys, clutching kites made out of scraps of paper and ragged soccer balls, squat a few feet away under scrub trees. Men in flowing white or gray galabias—homespun robes—smoke cigarettes in the shade of slim eaves. Two emaciated donkeys, their ribs protruding, are tethered to wooden carts with rubber wheels.

It is still. The camp waits, as if holding its breath. And then, out of the dry furnace air, a disembodied voice crackles over a loudspeaker.

"Come on, dogs," the voice booms in Arabic. "Where are all the dogs of Khan Younis? Come! Come!"

I stand up. I walk outside the hut. The invective continues to spew: "Son of a bitch!" "Son of a whore!" "Your mother's c**t!"

The boys dart in small packs up the sloping dunes to the electric fence that separates the camp from the Jewish settlement. They lob rocks toward two armored jeeps parked on top of the dune and mounted with loudspeakers. Three ambulances line the road below the dunes in anticipation of what is to come.

A percussion grenade explodes. The boys, most no more than ten or eleven years old, scatter, running clumsily across the heavy sand. They descend out of sight behind a sandbank in front of me. There are no sounds of gunfire. The soldiers shoot with silencers. The bullets from the M-16 rifles tumble end over end through the children's slight bodies. Later, in the hospital, I will see the destruction: the stomachs ripped out, the gaping holes in limbs and torsos.

Yesterday at this spot the Israelis shot eight young men, six of whom were under the age of eighteen. One was twelve. This afternoon they kill an eleven-year-old boy, Ali Murad, and seriously wound four more, three of whom are under eighteen. Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered—death squads gunned them down in El Salvador and Guatemala, mothers with infants were lined up and massacred in Algeria, and Serb snipers put children in their sights and watched them crumple onto the pavement in Sarajevo—but I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport.

We approach a Palestinian police post behind a sand hill. The police, in green uniforms, are making tea. They say that they have given up on trying to hold the children back.

"When we tell the boys not to go to the dunes they taunt us as collaborators," Lt. Ayman Ghanm says. "When we approach the fence with our weapons to try and clear the area the Israelis fire on us. We just sit here now and wait for the war."



http://www.canadazone.com/palestine/20020604.htm

As I have said already, the strategy is not to kill so much as to strangle slowly. All resistence is then illegal violence, which can then be punished by violence.

Peaceful resistance is stupid, as this girl found out.

there are still plenty of deaths, even of children throwing stones.

As the last link says, the strategy is to move all people out of villages into the cities. Then the settlers can have all the land. The Palestinians are being placed in what is effectively a large ghetto, surrounded by a security fence. This fence will not be just to separate the west bank from isreal. It will be used to enclose, going between the border of Jordan and the west bank as well. The west bank itself will consist of isolated towns, connected by secure paths. Jews and Palestinians will use different roads.

Water, which is a vital and scarce resource, is controlled by Israel. There are vital aquifiers under the west bank. Israel intends to control them after the coming settlement.

[peptoabysmal]

I can't help but wonder if this had taken place in an Islamic state, if she wouldn't have been found to be clearly at fault in the incident because she was a western infidel.

[EvilYeti]

Seeing as there is no such thing a "silenced" M-16 and its bullets do not "tumble end over end" (and urban legend dating back to the vietnam war) that article is likely a work of fiction.

Regardless, kids throwing rocks are not "innocent bystanders". Throwing rocks at someone with armed with an automatic weapon is, surprise, a bad idea. They cease being innocents and start being combatants. Don't want to get shot, don't throw rocks. Again, a very simple decision.

Too bad the israeli vicitims of palistinian suicide bombers don't have such an option, unless you consider riding a bus or going to the market an act of aggression.

This is what I asked for:

"Please give one (1) example of the Israeli military deliberately, with malice of forethought, targeting and murdering innocent Palestinians."

Use a palestinian terror attack as an example. Find me the israeli equivalent.

Simple.

Originally posted by a_unique_person


The soldiers shoot with silencers. The bullets from the M-16 rifles tumble end over end through the children's slight bodies.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tricky



Some of you may recall the student who stood in front of a tank in Tiananmen Square in 1989. Do you think the tank should have run over him for opposing authority? In what way is this different from the principled stand taken by Rachel Corrie? Is it because in one case you agree with the authority and in another you dont?



BAD anology. The kid in Tiananmen Square was showing defiance to a totalitarian state. This girl was showing solidarity with terrorists and muslim fascists.

[EvilBiker]

Originally posted by EvilYeti
Seeing as there is no such thing a "silenced" M-16 and its bullets do not "tumble end over end" (and urban legend dating back to the vietnam war) that article is likely a work of fiction.

A comment here: I believe the "end-over-end" thingy needs a bit more detail. Our current standard-issue rifle, the R4 (same caliber as the M16 - 5.56mm), has this effect of "tumbling end-over-end", but only after it hits. The bullet has a slight eccentricity in spin imparted on it by design, making it marginally unstable in flight, so that on contact with something solid it spins or tumbles, causing maximum damage during it's passage.

This effect was taken directly from the M16 design - I have seen the rifling designs for both rifles.

The old school shooters much preferred the FN or R1 over here during the bush wars. OK, the FN was a bastard to carry, weighing in at 4.5 kg, but it packed a mean punch thanks to the 7.62mm round. The advantage it had over the R5, however, was that it shot through trees, whereas the R5 bullets just spun off the trunk.

I can't comment on the M-16 silencing, never seen one, but I do know it's possible to do. Our paratrooper versions of the R4 (folding stock option) have a silencer option. Doesn't work well on full auto, though :p

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Tony
BAD anology. The kid in Tiananmen Square was showing defiance to a totalitarian state. This girl was showing solidarity with terrorists and muslim fascists.
It all depends on your point of view. To some, Israel is a totalitarian state, at least in regards to Palestinians. Certainly they were totalitarian enough to destroy their homes.

But I am not taking the Palestinian side. Many of them commit horrible atrocities. Is Israel justified in destroying all of their homes because some of them may have been used by terrorists?

My point is simply that both of the "human impediments" were very brave in defending what they believed in. It is quite a stretch to call an unarmed person standing in front of a large vehicle a "terrorist".

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Segnosaur
Just wondering....

Has the reason for buldozing the house ever been made public? I had heard rumours that this 'house' actually served as one end of a tunnel through the border, where weapons could be smuggled in from Egypt. But, I don't know how 'official' that report was.
It was not a single house, but several. I'm not sure what Israel's rationale was, and arguably it may have even been justified. However, such heavy-handed acts do not serve Israel well when they advertise to the world that human lives, other than Israeli lives, mean nothing to them.

[Leif Roar]

Originally posted by Tony


BAD anology. The kid in Tiananmen Square was showing defiance to a totalitarian state. This girl was showing solidarity with terrorists and muslim fascists.

For some reason, this reminds me of the old saying "We have intelligence officers, our allies have agents, but our enemies have cowardly spies."

Who defines what is "defiance to a totalitarian state" and what is "solidarity with terrorists"?

Why is protesting against the Israeli actions in Palestine automatically "showing solidarity with terrorists" - it is possible to sympathise with the cause without supporting the methods of extreme elements that fight for that cause.

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by Leif Roar

Who defines what is "defiance to a totalitarian state" and what is "solidarity with terrorists"?

How about logic? How about the dictionary? Take your pick.

A totalitarian state is a dictatorship with supressed human rights. China fits that description. Israel (being an open democracy) does not.

A terrorist is one who targets civilians with "terrorist methods" (yeah, I know, circular definition) to achieve a political goal. That is what the Palestinian groups like Hamas are doing.

Originally posted by Leif Roar

Why is protesting against the Israeli actions in Palestine automatically "showing solidarity with terrorists" - it is possible to sympathise with the cause without supporting the methods of extreme elements that fight for that cause.

There are a couple of problems:
- The "extreme elements" make up a large portion of the Palestinian population (much larger than say, the KKK or Nazi sympathisers in the U.S.)
- Even if a person isn't extreme, they may still engage in 'minor violence' (like stone throwing), or publicity stunts.
- Even if a majority of the population disagrees with the extreme elements, they are not making an effort to stop it. They are not arresting the heads of the terrorist organizations, they aren't doing much to 'help' find the terrorists themselves. In fact, many eagerly act as 'human sheilds'. Compare that to North America, where people generally are disgusted with 'extreme elements' and go through efforts to prosecute offenders
- Remember, these are the people that were dancing in the streets on 9/11, and who widely support bin Laden and Saddam. The fact that so many people there support and cheer for "evil" people is a cause for concern

So, while I don't believe that all Palestinians are terrorists, I believe that the actions of the majority of Palistinians (both explicitly, and through non-condemnation of terrorists acting in their midst) makes it almost impossible to support Palestine in its current condition without supporting terrorists.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by EvilBiker

I can't comment on the M-16 silencing, never seen one, but I do know it's possible to do. Our paratrooper versions of the R4 (folding stock option) have a silencer option. Doesn't work well on full auto, though :p

There is no such thing as a silencer. The term is "noise suppressor". The only thing it does is keep your ears from bleeding. It does not "silence" a gun.

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by Tricky

It was not a single house, but several. I'm not sure what Israel's rationale was, and arguably it may have even been justified. However, such heavy-handed acts do not serve Israel well when they advertise to the world that human lives, other than Israeli lives, mean nothing to them.

Ok, wait a second.

I'm willing to accept that the Israelis are not totally innocent. (And, their settlement program should probably be stopped.) Howver, to say that non-Israeli lives mean nothing to them is, frankly a disgusting suggestion, more likely to come from aup or uce.

Although Israel will attack terrorists (even when they have surrounded themselves with human sheilds), they do not think non-Israeli lives mean nothing. Remember, during the Jenin invasion, Israel went through the trouble of bringing in blood from Jordan, because the Palestinians didn't want to accept 'jewish blood'. Many Palistinians receive health care in Jewish hospitals. And Israeli aid to Turkey following earthquakes there show that they are willing to help other Muslim countries (as long as they're not trying to exerminate Israel).

[EvilYeti]

The newer M855 NATO round (M16A2) requires a rifle twist of 1:7 or 1:9 or the bullet will tumble during flight. This is bad, as it ruins the accuracy of the rifle, so all modern M-16's have a barrel twist of 1:7. At ranges under 200 yards the bullet will often yaw and fragment upon impact, which is what causes the terrible wounds often attributed to tumbling. I am not familiar with the R4, but if its accuracy is comparable to the M-16 then its bullets do not tumble or wobble during flight.

The reason the 7.62 rounds blew through trees has nothing to do with rifling, its all ballistics. Its a heavier round with a bigger cartridge; more mass == more penetration.

Regarding silencers, you CANNOT "silence" an assault rifle. You can "suppress" it, which will lower the volume of the report somewhat, but does nothing to silence the supersonic crack of the bullet. Only pistols, sub-machine guns and carbines firing sub-sonic ammunition can be "silenced".

Originally posted by EvilBiker

A comment here: I believe the "end-over-end" thingy needs a bit more detail. Our current standard-issue rifle, the R4 (same caliber as the M16 - 5.56mm), has this effect of "tumbling end-over-end", but only after it hits.

The old school shooters much preferred the FN or R1 over here during the bush wars. OK, the FN was a bastard to carry, weighing in at 4.5 kg, but it packed a mean punch thanks to the 7.62mm round. The advantage it had over the R5, however, was that it shot through trees, whereas the R5 bullets just spun off the trunk.

I can't comment on the M-16 silencing, never seen one, but I do know it's possible to do. Our paratrooper versions of the R4 (folding stock option) have a silencer option. Doesn't work well on full auto, though :p

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


Wrong again. The "Rachel Corrie served an evil cause, and paid the price." article idenitifier (http://www.frontpagemag.com/) was taken from the same article. It is the first article on that site now.

Q, your undemocratic tendancies are pretty childish. If a group of children made some pipe-bombs and blew themselves up with them, is it appropriate to educate others about that stupidity in the population? You bet it is. That is what democracy is all about. When people do stupid things, other people write articles about it to try and convince the unknowing that what happened was wrong, and even more so, dangerous.

JK

yup...

...every life has a purpose....even if it's only to be a warning to others!!

-z

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by rikzilla


yup...

...every life has a purpose....even if it's only to be a warning to others!!

-z

I will never forget watching the Jackass show on MTV one time where some kids were jumping over a car doing 45 MPH. Then some kids who saw that decided they were going to do it and they filmed it and the kid who tried to jump over the car didn't make the height and the car hit him and broke his back and both his legs.

In every society there are stupid people who do stupid things. It is important for people who are not stupid to write articles and do TV interviews about the people who do stupid things so the public can see what is stupid and what is not stupid lol.

What that Corrie leftist chick did was pretty stupid. She shouldn't have been anywhere near that dozer. She didn't have any common-sense and her stupidity cost her life.

A twenty-ton bulldozer has the tendancy to crush human bones and flesh and it is loud enough that the screams of the person it is running over can't be heard. That is why people shouldn't play around bulldozers that are in operation moving tons of earth around. But as a leftist she probably thought she was invincible to it until her body got caught under the tracks and flattened like a pancake.

JK

[Tmy]

Isreal is a democracy so they can do no wrong? (US has always been a democracy, look at Jim Crow)

What are you supposed to do as a Palistianian. You cant even stand in front of a bulldozer. Are they going to achieve their goals through a letter writing campaine?

If your a regular Palistianian guy what are you supposedto do aboutthe terrorist faction. Turn them in? I imgaine thats the equivlent of ratting on the mob. Does regular guy deserve to have his apartment knocked down cause he's stuck in the middle.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Tmy
Isreal is a democracy so they can do no wrong? (US has always been a democracy, look at Jim Crow)

What are you supposed to do as a Palistianian. You cant even stand in front of a bulldozer. Are they going to achieve their goals through a letter writing campaine?

If your a regular Palistianian guy what are you supposedto do aboutthe terrorist faction. Turn them in? I imgaine thats the equivlent of ratting on the mob. Does regular guy deserve to have his apartment knocked down cause he's stuck in the middle.

The homes Israel are demolishing are the ones who produced the terrorist fanatics.

If the Palestinians didn't blow up the Jews with nail bombs, each Palestinian's home would be a protected castle. But since they are getting money to offer their young as suicide bombers, Israel is taking that incentive out. I agree with the Israeli policy. Terrorism should not be be rewarded, and every Palestinian knows what will happen if they involve themselves with terrorism. Their homes will be bulldozed to make space for humans that have humanity.

JK

[Baggle]

Re: What can Palestianians do about it?

What about voting people sympathetic to their cause into the Israeli gov't and going about the reforms they want peacefully?

I imagine it is more complicated than this, but really, why is this not the primary focus for change in Israel? Why the primary focus terrorist attacks, and sympathyzing with groups like Islamic Jihad, and not a cry to get Palestinians out to the voting boothes to get their own leaders elected?

This is a legitimate question, and if somebody could answer it without rhetoric and insults, in a matter where I can't tell what political leaning you have, I'd be grateful.

-Baggle

[Megalodon]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight

Their homes will be bulldozed to make space for humans that have humanity.


:rolleyes: Good thing you're not there, or else they would kick you out :rolleyes:

[EvilYeti]

Because the goal of the militant Palestinians is the destruction of Israel. Why do you think they continue to launch attacks during cease-fires? They don't want peace.

The only possible solution is for Palestinian moderates to work with Israel to disband the terrorist groups operating within Palestine. There can be no peace as long as they exist.

Originally posted by Baggle
Re: What can Palestianians do about it?

I imagine it is more complicated than this, but really, why is this not the primary focus for change in Israel? Why the primary focus terrorist attacks, and sympathyzing with groups like Islamic Jihad, and not a cry to get Palestinians out to the voting boothes to get their own leaders elected?

This is a legitimate question, and if somebody could answer it without rhetoric and insults, in a matter where I can't tell what political leaning you have, I'd be grateful.

-Baggle

[Leif Roar]

Originally posted by Baggle
Re: What can Palestianians do about it?

What about voting people sympathetic to their cause into the Israeli gov't and going about the reforms they want peacefully?

I imagine it is more complicated than this, but really, why is this not the primary focus for change in Israel? Why the primary focus terrorist attacks, and sympathyzing with groups like Islamic Jihad, and not a cry to get Palestinians out to the voting boothes to get their own leaders elected?

This is a legitimate question, and if somebody could answer it without rhetoric and insults, in a matter where I can't tell what political leaning you have, I'd be grateful.

-Baggle

The Palestinians are not Israeli citizens , and has for that reason no right to vote in Israeli elections.

That's not strictly true - there are Palestinian arabs who live in Israel and are Israeli citizens; however when the term "the Palestinians" are used, it's generally used about the Palestinians living outside of Israel's borders.

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by Tmy
What are you supposed to do as a Palistianian. You cant even stand in front of a bulldozer. Are they going to achieve their goals through a letter writing campaine?


Passive resistance has worked in the past. Look at what Ghandi accomplished. And that was before the age of television. If 'real' innocent Palistinians were brutally treated, I suspect support for Israeli policies (both within Israel and the U.S.) would drop.

But, the Palistinians would have to go all the way with it. You cannot have 1/2 of the people engaging in passive resistance, and the other half throwing rocks, molatov cocktails, and bombs.

You look at it as being unable to stand in front of a bulldozer in peaceful protest. The Israeli position is that the person was preventing the destruction of a home owned by people who have just gotten thousands of dollars because a relative blew up innocent Israelis.

Originally posted by Tmy
If your a regular Palistianian guy what are you supposedto do aboutthe terrorist faction. Turn them in? I imgaine thats the equivlent of ratting on the mob. Does regular guy deserve to have his apartment knocked down cause he's stuck in the middle.

Why not turn them in? If the majority of Palestinians were interested in peace, they would likely be protected.

It would also help if you didn't send your kids out to throw stones at Israeli soldiers, or kill themselves via bombing.

As for the guy stuck in the middle - I do feel sympathy for him. However, I feel that the Palestinians involved in terrorist organizations are the ones to blame. They deliberately put themselves in the middle of civilian populations, basically forcing the guy in the middle to be a human sheild. (Note: I am assuming this guy really is innocent, and not someone who has actually caused problems himself.)