"Fire" Walking Questions/Observations

[tommyz]

I was watching the first season of Penn and Teller's Bullsh*t the other day, in particular the episode that had focused on self-help nonsense. For those of you who haven't seen this episode, part of this episode included a segment on how "fire" walking (notice how I use the term "fire" very loosely --I'll get right to that in a second) can help you overcome your fears and give you greater improved self confidence and self esteem in all aspects of life. This was (and perhaps still may be) a popular gimmick that self-help guru Anthony Robbins promoted as a means of self empowerment.

Now don't get me wrong, folks. I'm all for building self confidence and self esteem. But through "fire walking?!" Perhaps it may build your self confidence and self esteem with regard to THAT specific task (being of course, "fire" walking). But to use this gimmick as a means to overcome your inability to, let's say, strike up a conversation with a stranger makes about as much sense as studying a dictionary to prepare for a math exam. One's sense of self esteem and self confidence is directly proportional to the specific task at hand. The more familiar we are and the more we understand what goes on in the undertaking of a particular task, naturally, the greater our self esteem becomes when we set out to achieve it.

Dr. Steven Covey (www.stevencovey.com) and Dr. Nathaniel Brandon (www.nathanielbranden.net) are my favorite self help "gurus" (if you want to call them that)...yet they don't resort to such sensationalist carne-type gimmicks to make themselves understood by the masses.

With that said, here are my questions/observations that were not brought up in the show:

(1). Participants walk on coals, NOT fire.

Interesting to note in the show how they ignite the pieces of wood, let it burn for a while, then scatter the hot ashes around flat on the ground. If they claim to be TRUE fire walkers, why then why wait for the wood to burn? Just walk through the raging inferno already!

(2). Why is this activity almost ALWAYS done at night?

Just my observation. Is it perhaps that, if done during the day, the hot coals would appear more like a bed of ashes, than red hot burning embers? One thing that was mentioned by the physics professor debunking this activity on the show is that wood is a poor conductor of heat. Seems to me that heat works its way from the outside in when a piece of wood is brought to fire. Therefore, when a piece of wood is ignited, it's at its hottest when in flames, but when the flame dies down, much of its heat is concentrated in a central core surrounded by a layer of heat resistant carbon ash. In the dark, the coals would naturally appear red hot as the glow penetrates through the ash layer. But in daylight, it would just appear as ash and therefore have less of a dramatic effect. Make sense?

(3). Why do participants almost ALWAYS walk briskly through the coals, rather than just standing still in one spot?

The physics professor on the show claimed that the dead skin on the bottom of your feet is a poor conductor of heat, but I don't know about that. Just to see, I actually held a lighter under the balls of my feet, and found that I couldn't tolerate for any more than a second. Even when the professor performed the actual demonstration himself, he seemed rather hurried...probably because it was beginning to burn like hell!

So my guestimation is that if you run briskly over coals that have burned for a good half hour, day or night, ANYONE can become a COALwalker!

Now as far as the "firewalker" term is concerned, if anyone can actually PROVE to the world that they can indeed walk on fire and not get burned would certainly be worthy of the JREF million dollar prize!

[thatguywhojuggles]

It's all here: http://www.firewalking.com/theory.html

[tommyz]

Originally posted by thatguywhojuggles
It's all here: http://www.firewalking.com/theory.html

Great link...thanks Walter!

[thatguywhojuggles]

Originally posted by tommyz
Great link...thanks Walter!

Please understand that was a joke!! Don't take anything seriously from that website.


In 1994, physicist Bernard Leikind visited the Firewalking Institute and tried to dramatically illustrate this concept by strapping two sirloin steaks to his feet and then walking across a bed of coals while The Discovery Channel filmed the event. The steaks seemed to be unaffected by the coal bed. He then placed a metal grill in the coals and, when it was glowing red, he placed the same steaks on the grill and the metal instantly seared the meat. He felt this sufficiently demonstrated that mental state had nothing to do with the phenomenon of firewalking. He emphasized that it would not be possible for humans to walk on the glowing, red grill without injury.

As soon as he said this, a number of people from our staff walked on the grill without harm.

The grill was so red-hot, the weight of people walking on it bent the softened metal and left impressions of the firewalkers’ feet on the grill. We keep the grill with its molded footprints as a souvenir to help debunk the conductivity theory.


I'm willing to bet the JREF would pay a million bucks for someone who could walk across red hot metal grils without hurting their feet.

http://www.debris.com/journal/160


According to Leikind, two factors prevent most of the risk of getting burned during a firewalk: heat conductivity and heat capacity. He summarizes it this way:

Embers have a relatively low thermal conductivity and a relatively low heat capacity. Your foot has a relatively high heat capacity and a moderate thermal conductivity. What this means is that the embers don’t have much energy to give to your foot, and they are not good at getting what they have into your foot, and your foot can absorb a lot without heating up too much.

No one does firewalks across red hot glowing aluminum frying pans, which have high thermal conductivity and high heat capacity, even though they are no hotter than similarly colored embers.

....

* Leikind says Burkan put the metal racks in the fire; Burkan says it was Leikind’s doing.
* Burkan says the grill was “glowing red;� Leikind says they were “not very hot� and goes on to deny that they were glowing.
* Leikind says they “probably did not� sear the raw steaks they put on the racks; Burkan says they did, “instantly.�

[joesixpack]

I ended up a a Tony Robbins seminar (long story short, my employer sent me) given by a Tony wannabe (one of his franchisees, I guess). I was talking about the "Firewalking" thing with this guy and he INSISTED that Tony and his diciples were able to walk across the metal grate on the bed of coals. I knew I was speaking with a liar at that point, so the presentation wasn't so motivational to me.

Incedently, this wasn't the full Tony Robbins seminar. We didn't walk on coals, we Karate chopped a piece of pine. Yawn.

[Timothy]

Originally posted by tommyz

Now don't get me wrong, folks. I'm all for building self confidence and self esteem. But through "fire walking?!" Perhaps it may build your self confidence and self esteem with regard to THAT specific task (being of course, "fire" walking). But to use this gimmick as a means to overcome your inability to, let's say, strike up a conversation with a stranger makes about as much sense as studying a dictionary to prepare for a math exam. One's sense of self esteem and self confidence is directly proportional to the specific task at hand. The more familiar we are and the more we understand what goes on in the undertaking of a particular task, naturally, the greater our self esteem becomes when we set out to achieve it.


While not being familiar with Tony Robbins' seminar techniques, I would disagree that "gimmicks" are not useful (in some people) to overcome self-confidence.

This goes off-topic into psychology, but some people with self confidence issues feel that they are not at all special, uninteresting, boring, thinking that other people are better, and that they are not worth talking to. To have gone through firewalking (being an unusual experience that few of the people they meet have undergone) can imbue a psychological edge that can help with self-confidence ... they think "Hmmm. Even though you have a PhD, I've done something that *you* haven't done, so you're not inherently better than me." Consider it a placebo. Nothing has changed but mental state, but in this case mental state is a huge factor.

- Timothy

[Skepiroth]

I saw a similar documentary once, however in this one the debunker walked across the 'hot coal covered in insulating ash' pit himself... after telling the onlookers that he was using no spiritual power. This documentary brought up another interesting point; when you are walking across a pit of "fire", you are most likely sweating a lot. A sizeable portion of the heat which leaves the source goes into evaporating the sweat. He demonstrated by dipping his fingers into water and then dipping them into molten lead without getting a burn.

[Jeff Corey]

Alarum bells ring in the baloney detector.
Thank you Carl, Randi, and Michael.

[Patricio Elicer]

Does anybody have a link to the fire walking <s>fiasco</s> event presented by Richard Wiseman at TAM3?. I'm interested in the details, a tragic-hilarious situation indeed.

[tim]

Originally posted by Patricio Elicer
Does anybody have a link to the fire walking <s>fiasco</s> event presented by Richard Wiseman at TAM3?. I'm interested in the details, a tragic-hilarious situation indeed.

Hi Patricio
I have it saved on my computer - send me your email and I will gladly send it to you.

Fire walking. I'm doing a fire walk on 23rd April - yes folks, in about six weeks.
I do not expect it to be a life-changing experience. I do not believe there is anything supernatural about it. I am doing it for two (maybe three) reasons -
1) To show people who say it's done through supernatural means that it's really no more than basic physics.
2) I'm raising money for Cancer Research UK by doing it. http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/
3) Fire walking is counter-intuitive. I've spent my life learning that touching things that are hot is not a good idea. I suspect that although I know full well I am not going to get hurt, that learning will be trying very hard indeed to tell me otherwise. I want to prove to myself that I have the courage of my convictions.

I want to blame all this on MoeFaux actually. It was she who suggested riding the Big Shot on top of the Stratosphere tower in Las Vegas. I will not begin to tell you how scared I was. But my rational side told me "This just has to be safe". My emotions were saying "Don't listen to him, you're gonna die!"
Soooo, what else could I do to prove to myself that my rational side was right and my emotional side was wrong? I know! A Fire Walk!
























Oh *****.........

[Patricio Elicer]

Originally posted by tim
Hi Patricio
I have it saved on my computer - send me your email and I will gladly send it to you. Hey Tim!, thanks very much my friend.

Is it a video file what you have in your comp?. If so, it may take forever to upload/download, it's also possible that my server won't allow very big files. Anyway, let's give it a try. Check your PM box for my email address. Thanks again.

Ahh, and good luck in your fire walking, I'll be waiting for the said date.

[rppa]

Here's a good column on it:

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_036.html

I notice that the woo-woo sites often use "Jearl Walker got burned once" as an argument that physics can't explain firewalking. It is true that Jearl Walker got burned once, and also that Walker and others no longer believe that the Leidenfrost effect (a protective layer of steam from evaporating water) is the most important protective mechanism.

Instead, it seems to be based on the low heat capacity of the "coals", which are wood chips rather than actual coal. So there isn't a lot of heat energy to transfer. As one experiment in this thread noted, steaks don't get charred either. As another in the Straight Dope link above observed, sandals are similarly unaffected.

Why did Walker get burned once? Not sure. Probably the coals were actual coal, or they weren't prepared in the usual way.

I could sorta-kinda-see using firewalking in a motivational way, if the idea is to get you to overcome your fears and do something that scares you, even if it is harmless. It might give you techniques to psych yourself up for other scary things, like cold sales calls (my least favorite thing) or public speaking (which oddly doesn't bother me at all).

[Beady]

Originally posted by tommyz
For those of you who haven't seen this episode, part of this episode included a segment on how "fire" walking...can help you overcome your fears and give you greater improved self confidence and self esteem in all aspects of life.

I've got a co-worker who was telling me all about how firewalking can increase your self confidence and expand your consciousness. As soon as he was done with his spiel, I told him about my younger son, who earlier that week had been trapped in a ditch for 2 1/2 hours during a firefight outside of Kirkuk, and who, two or three years before, had spent several months in Bosnia helping build a hospital for kids who had been blown up by land mines.

I guess I was fighting dirty, but the guy hasn't mentioned firewalking since.

[Bronze Dog]

Remember seeing a little something on TV recently, where they were talking to one firewalker who apparently set a distance record at one time. He was taking it easy on the show's filming, and did a walk of only 5 or 6 feet. The twist: The clip was shot during the day. The only indication you had that the pile of ashes was hot was the big oval-shaped gap in the surrounding snow. Thankfully, this firewalker explained the real science behind the trick.

[El_Spectre]

Originally posted by BronzeDog
Remember seeing a little something on TV recently, where they were talking to one firewalker who apparently set a distance record at one time. He was taking it easy on the show's filming, and did a walk of only 5 or 6 feet. The twist: The clip was shot during the day. The only indication you had that the pile of ashes was hot was the big oval-shaped gap in the surrounding snow. Thankfully, this firewalker explained the real science behind the trick.

I saw that too... his record was something insane like 130 feet. And he clearly knows that it's nothing supernatural. Anyone know how he pulled that off? Older/cooler coals? Perhaps the type of wood (and consequent density of coals) makes a difference?

[Beady]

Originally posted by El_Spectre
I saw that too... his record was something insane like 130 feet. And he clearly knows that it's nothing supernatural. Anyone know how he pulled that off? Older/cooler coals? Perhaps the type of wood (and consequent density of coals) makes a difference?

http://www.skepdic.com/firewalk.html

[rppa]

Originally posted by Beady
http://www.skepdic.com/firewalk.html

I didn't see anything there that explained the special circumstances of the record-setting walk.

There were some interesting stories in the margins about "motivational" firewalks gone wrong.

Here's what not to do:
Tyler is suing Gilbert for "using the wrong type of wood, starting the fire walk before ash formed on the wood and failing to have medical personnel present, among other things."

Am I the alone in thinking of a particularly funny "Murphy Brown" episode every time the subject of team-building corporate seminars comes up?

[Suggestologist]

Originally posted by tommyz
[B]Now don't get me wrong, folks. I'm all for building self confidence and self esteem. But through "fire walking?!" Perhaps it may build your self confidence and self esteem with regard to THAT specific task (being of course, "fire" walking). But to use this gimmick as a means to overcome your inability to, let's say, strike up a conversation with a stranger makes about as much sense as studying a dictionary to prepare for a math exam. One's sense of self esteem and self confidence is directly proportional to the specific task at hand.

Um, no. Self confidence is not compartmentalized, nor task-specific for most people. Fire walking can improve self confidence for the same reasons playing sports or jumping off a plane with a parachute or exercising or learning to pilot a small plane can improve general self-confidence and self-image.

The more familiar we are and the more we understand what goes on in the undertaking of a particular task, naturally, the greater our self esteem becomes when we set out to achieve it.

This does seem to be the way some skeptics derive self confidence (being knowledgable in a specific subject); but it does not work that way for everyone. And even for a skeptic, knowing you have mastered one area will increase general confidence in mastering other areas; which is another way to say that general self confidence is increased (and self image enhanced) in this way.

[El_Spectre]

Originally posted by Beady
http://www.skepdic.com/firewalk.html

Yeah, I'm familiar with the basic concept... but I've also heard a number of folks (Wiseman being the funniest) say that it's really only practical to walk 12-15 feet. Of course environmental conditions (chiefly coal temperature) will change this... but an order of magnitude difference in distance is huge.

Damn, wish I knew that guys name. In the same show he illustrated the concept of poor conductivity by picking up an orange hot space shuttle tile.

[tommyz]

Originally posted by thatguywhojuggles
Please understand that was a joke!! Don't take anything seriously from that website.

Of course I wasn't taking it seriously...just a little cynical sarcasm on my part.

Originally posted by Beady
I've got a coworker telling me all about how firewalking can increase your self confidence and expand your consciousness. As soon as he was done with his spiel, I told him about my younger son, who earlier that week had been trapped in a ditch for 2 1/2 hours during a firefight outside of Kirkuk, and who, two or three years before, had spent several months in Bosnia helping build a hospital for kids who had been blown up by land mines.

I guess I was fighting dirty, but the guy hasn't mentioned firewalking since.

Excellent rebuttal Beady. How childishly silly, foolish and naive for grown ups to think that by just reading a single self help book or going to a single firewalking seminar can all of a sudden instantly "change" them overnight. Meaningful and significant change takes place over the natural course of time through consistent and progressive ACTION, like in the case with your son. Dire circumstances such as those that your son had gone through, I'm sure, are guaranteed to have a permanent and lasting impact on how he views the world, and what he needs to do to make his life, and the lives of those around him better, MUCH more than any single self help book or fire walking seminar could possibly ever do for him. So GOOD FOR HIM!

Other than that, building genuine self confidence and self esteem is no different than a body builder building muscles. Protein shakes and supplements are fine (if that's your thing), but it's not going to amount to a hill of beans if you do nothing more but sit on the couch all day.

Likewise, reading a self help book or going to a "fire" walking seminar is fine (again, if that's your thing), but it's not going to amount to a hill of beans if you do nothing more but immediately get right back into your old ways of thinking and living.

The incredible natural high of an invigorating workout is great, but even better when done consistently on a daily basis. And the same kind of natural high of achieving a meaningful goal that not only helps yourself but others in the process as well, is also great...but much better when consistenly done.

So there really is no "magic" pill or secret. It just boils down to plain old fashioned hard work, and it seems like THAT'S the thing that too many people are terrified of these days! ;)

[Skeptical Greg]

I've always wondered why fire sitting hasn't really caught on... :confused:

[patchbunny]

Originally posted by rppa
Am I the alone in thinking of a particularly funny "Murphy Brown" episode every time the subject of team-building corporate seminars comes up?
Nope! I remember that episode fondly. "Great. He gets toilet trained too early, and thirty years later we're the ones who suffer."

I had to do a ropes course once, along with some other rather silly team building games. My comment on the anonymous "how'd we do" card was "What a bunch of hippie crap".

Mystified my boss for months until I had one particularily cynical day, then he turned to me and repeated that line.

--Patch

[Minkster]

Never done a firewalk, but have walked barefoot over broken glass in a similar 'team building' excersize. Of course, theres nothing paranormal about it - its all technique, and whilst it didn't boost my self confidence through the roof, I must say it did give a feeling of satisfaction that i had done it afterwards.

[Suggestologist]

Originally posted by patchbunny
Nope! I remember that episode fondly. "Great. He gets toilet trained too early, and thirty years later we're the ones who suffer."

I had to do a ropes course once, along with some other rather silly team building games. My comment on the anonymous "how'd we do" card was "What a bunch of hippie crap".

Mystified my boss for months until I had one particularily cynical day, then he turned to me and repeated that line.

--Patch

Well, some people will react the way you did. It does work better with positive expectations. I mean, why do people climb mountains? If you think climbing mountains is useless and a waste of time... being forced to do it won't be an energizing experience.

I think Anthony Robbins also has/had a Ropes Course type setup -- some sort of obstacle course type things -- the fire walking is not the only "team building" type exercise he does/did.

[Richard]

Does anybody have a link to the fire walking <s>fiasco</s> event presented by Richard Wiseman at TAM3?. I'm interested in the details, a tragic-hilarious situation indeed.

Try these:

Richard Wiseman

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3127175426821457459&hl=en

Australia

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7080607594096749173&hl=en

and

Anthony Robbins

http://www.abc.net.au/jtv/video/default.htm?clip=anthonyrobbins

The last is a worry. People are so...... human!

[Soapy Sam]

Richard- Just curiosity on my part- Why now?

[Rodney]

Richard- Just curiosity on my part- Why now?Yes, Richard, why now? After all, someone who wasn't participating here in March 2005 might now have the audacity to ask why, if firewalking was ridiculed at TAM3, Randi didn't admit at that time that he was "buffaloed" by firewalking many years earlier? See my esteemed colleague delphi_ote's post of July 2, 2006. http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=51470&page=3&highlight=firewalking+video ;)

[Richard]

Yes, Richard, why now? After all, someone who wasn't participating here in March 2005 might now have the audacity to ask why, if firewalking was ridiculed at TAM3, Randi didn't admit at that time that he was "buffaloed" by firewalking many years earlier? See my esteemed colleague delphi_ote's post of July 2, 2006. http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=51470&page=3&highlight=firewalking+video ;)

Oh.. I was running a search on fire walking and saw the posting. It is possible someone did not notice the video links from a few months back. The last link in the 3 I posted is very new anyway, a few days old. -Yeah, Randi WAS 'buffaloed' at the time, years and years ago, but now, like the rest of us, understands what is going on. It's called learning.

[Rodney]

Oh.. I was running a search on fire walking and saw the posting. It is possible someone did not notice the video links from a few months back. The last link in the 3 I posted is very new anyway, a few days old. -Yeah, Randi WAS 'buffaloed' at the time, years and years ago, but now, like the rest of us, understands what is going on. It's called learning.Except that Randi has never, to my knowledge, acknowledged that he was buffaloed, but has rather tried to create the impression that he had firewalking figured out from the get-go. For example: "As to Fijian firewalking, he [Randi] says he never said he couldn't explain it, and in fact he has done the firewalking himself!" See http://www.darkecho.com/skepticalbeliever/two.html Note the word "never."

[Richard]

Except that Randi has never, to my knowledge, acknowledged that he was buffaloed, but has rather tried to create the impression that he had firewalking figured out from the get-go. For example: "As to Fijian firewalking, he [Randi] says he never said he couldn't explain it, and in fact he has done the firewalking himself!" See http://www.darkecho.com/skepticalbeliever/two.html Note the word "never."

I don't know. Ask Randi.

[Achán hiNidráne]

I saw a similar documentary once, however in this one the debunker walked across the 'hot coal covered in insulating ash' pit himself... after telling the onlookers that he was using no spiritual power. This documentary brought up another interesting point; when you are walking across a pit of "fire", you are most likely sweating a lot. A sizeable portion of the heat which leaves the source goes into evaporating the sweat. He demonstrated by dipping his fingers into water and then dipping them into molten lead without getting a burn.

There was a PBS science show we saw in High School physics class that explained it that way too.

[Rodney]

I don't know. Ask Randi.Okay, I just did. I'll report back when I receive a response.

[casebro]

I guess these types of "confidence building exercises" are beneficial to the folks who never climbed a tree high enough to scare their Moms.

[Scott Haley]

I just saw a man firewalk on a TV show called "30 days." They did the ususal hot coals on a dark night so it would look brighter. The instructor claimed that the reason the fire did not harm them was that they believed. He didn't say that it was set up in a special way so that they wouldn't be harmed. It seems to me that if someone took that seriously, he could really hurt himself. Imagine some poor guy firewalking, then doing something actually dangerous, believing that his attitude would protect him from harm.

[Richard]

Imagine some poor guy firewalking, then doing something actually dangerous, believing that his attitude would protect him from harm.

See: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3127175426821457459&hl=en

Also, you can set up a test at the beach on a hot day. No fire needed, just baking hot sand.

[Rodney]

Okay, I just did. I'll report back when I receive a response.I have now had two e-mail exchanges with Randi. His position is that NBC, which produced the firewalking documentary, edited out the following statement after his "I don't know, it's got me buffaloed" comment: "But I'm sure that with some careful investigation, we'd come up with a solution." I responded that, in addition to the "buffaloed" comment, Randi can also be heard on the documentary congratulating one of the firewalkers for a "most impressive" performance and stating about the sole of a firewalker's foot: "That sole is no tougher than mine; that's no tougher than mine and yet the man can do it. I don't think I could." I told him that the burden is on him to prove that NBC edited the documentary inappropriately, but he responded that he is not required to satisfy any such burden. He contended, however, that the original NBC tape doubtless exists to prove his point, and so I suggested that he try and obtain a copy of it.

[Mashuna]

[snip] I told him that the burden is on him to prove that NBC edited the documentary inappropriately, but he responded that he is not required to satisfy any such burden. He contended, however, that the original NBC tape doubtless exists to prove his point, and so I suggested that he try and obtain a copy of it.

I may be missing the point here, but why would the burden be on Randi in this case, and why should he try to obtain a copy of the original NBC tape?

[Rodney]

I may be missing the point here, but why would the burden be on Randi in this case, and why should he try to obtain a copy of the original NBC tape?The documentary that was seen on NBC many years ago seems to show that Randi was mystified by firewalking. Randi, however, says that he suggested to NBC that there was a solution, but "they wanted a mystery to remain, one that seemingly had the magician stunned." So, I would think it would be in his best interest to set the record straight by obtaining a copy of the original tape to demonstrate that he really wasn't stunned at all.

[Mashuna]

The documentary that was seen on NBC many years ago seems to show that Randi was mystified by firewalking. Randi, however, says that he suggested to NBC that there was a solution, but "they wanted a mystery to remain, one that seemingly had the magician stunned." So, I would think it would be in his best interest to set the record straight by obtaining a copy of the original tape to demonstrate that he really wasn't stunned at all.

Ok, but surely it's up to him as to whether this 'is in his best interest'. At present, it seems like it's a non-issue for him. If Randi is determined to prove his case that he was only, how shall I say, provisionally flummoxed, then yes I agree that the burden would be on him.

In this case though, he's been asked a question, then given an answer. On being asked for proof, he's responded with information as to where he thinks that proof can be found. This isn't an issue he's brought up, someone else came to him with questions - why spend his own time requesting or digging up archive material?

Actually, now I read what I've written, I probably half agree with you. Randi is making a claim that goes against documentary evidence, that claim being that there is more unscreened evidence that alters the thrust of what was shown. In that way, I agree the burden of proof is on Randi to disprove what was shown.

Where I disagree, as I said at the start of the post, is that this would be in his best interest. If this is a minor quibble to him, he's not going to spend time trying to prove his point. There is no requirement on him to do anything. If anyone else is that interested, he's said his part, someone else can verify or deny this as they please.

[ponderingturtle]

(2). Why is this activity almost ALWAYS done at night?

Just my observation. Is it perhaps that, if done during the day, the hot coals would appear more like a bed of ashes, than red hot burning embers? One thing that was mentioned by the physics professor debunking this activity on the show is that wood is a poor conductor of heat. Seems to me that heat works its way from the outside in when a piece of wood is brought to fire. Therefore, when a piece of wood is ignited, it's at its hottest when in flames, but when the flame dies down, much of its heat is concentrated in a central core surrounded by a layer of heat resistant carbon ash. In the dark, the coals would naturally appear red hot as the glow penetrates through the ash layer. But in daylight, it would just appear as ash and therefore have less of a dramatic effect. Make sense?

Not really. You are making several false assumptions of how fires burn, you would not see the glow in day light, because day light is very very bright. And fire is not hottest in the flame, the coals can be much much hotter than the flame if they are getting enough oxigen. Also ash is not carbon as the carbon is burning.


(3). Why do participants almost ALWAYS walk briskly through the coals, rather than just standing still in one spot?

The physics professor on the show claimed that the dead skin on the bottom of your feet is a poor conductor of heat, but I don't know about that. Just to see, I actually held a lighter under the balls of my feet, and found that I couldn't tolerate for any more than a second. Even when the professor performed the actual demonstration himself, he seemed rather hurried...probably because it was beginning to burn like hell!

So my guestimation is that if you run briskly over coals that have burned for a good half hour, day or night, ANYONE can become a COALwalker!

Now as far as the "firewalker" term is concerned, if anyone can actually PROVE to the world that they can indeed walk on fire and not get burned would certainly be worthy of the JREF million dollar prize!

Well walking on a gas would seem to qualify for the prize for one.

As for foot vs skin, try that experiment on a different section of skin and see how the times vary.

[ponderingturtle]

Please understand that was a joke!! Don't take anything seriously from that website.



I'm willing to bet the JREF would pay a million bucks for someone who could walk across red hot metal grils without hurting their feet.

http://www.debris.com/journal/160


Wow is the full of crap, red hot coals are generaly much cooler than red hot steel. Just give me a branding iron and we can see if their claims are true.

Hell I will make one for the occasion.

[ponderingturtle]

I've got a co-worker who was telling me all about how firewalking can increase your self confidence and expand your consciousness. As soon as he was done with his spiel, I told him about my younger son, who earlier that week had been trapped in a ditch for 2 1/2 hours during a firefight outside of Kirkuk, and who, two or three years before, had spent several months in Bosnia helping build a hospital for kids who had been blown up by land mines.

I guess I was fighting dirty, but the guy hasn't mentioned firewalking since.


No you should have turned him on to self trepanation and offered to let him borrow your power drill for the weekend...

[Rodney]

Ok, but surely it's up to him as to whether this 'is in his best interest'. At present, it seems like it's a non-issue for him. If Randi is determined to prove his case that he was only, how shall I say, provisionally flummoxed, then yes I agree that the burden would be on him.

In this case though, he's been asked a question, then given an answer. On being asked for proof, he's responded with information as to where he thinks that proof can be found. This isn't an issue he's brought up, someone else came to him with questions - why spend his own time requesting or digging up archive material?

Actually, now I read what I've written, I probably half agree with you. Randi is making a claim that goes against documentary evidence, that claim being that there is more unscreened evidence that alters the thrust of what was shown. In that way, I agree the burden of proof is on Randi to disprove what was shown.

Where I disagree, as I said at the start of the post, is that this would be in his best interest. If this is a minor quibble to him, he's not going to spend time trying to prove his point. There is no requirement on him to do anything. If anyone else is that interested, he's said his part, someone else can verify or deny this as they please.My point is that a fair-minded skeptic would have to conclude, based on the available evidence, that Randi was, in fact, mystified by the firewalking that he witnessed in Sri Lanka. In my opinion, this is because he was under the misimpression at that time that firewalking was simply a hoax. He had therefore never bothered to investigate the science behind it, and that's why he had no explanation to offer when his investigation revealed that it was not a hoax. If I'm wrong that he had no explanation to offer, it's incumbent upon him to produce some evidence supporting his position that NBC edited the tape in a misleading fashion. Otherwise, I think fair-minded skeptics can be forgiven if they believe Randi is being deceptive here.