Scientology

[cedric_owl]

My brother spent some time with some Scientologist relatives over the weekend, and told me a very disturbing story.

Apparently, this family has this bizarre habit of repeating the circumstances of "negative" situations. So when one of their children fell and scraped his knee, rather than immediately getting the kid medical attention (like a sane person), they have the child repeat the situation--by miming the fall he's taken at the same place he's fell. Several times. WHILE THEIR CHILD HAD AN OPEN WOUND. In fact, they didn't actually put a bandage on his knee for a good 20 minutes! My brother became furious with them about this, and left a day early because he found their behavior so unsettling throughout the trip.

Now, I don't necessarily want to question people's religious beliefs (nor do I know if these bizarre practices are part of the Scientologist's dogma), but it really concerns me that this family is willing to put their faith ahead of the immediate safety of their child. A scrape on the knee is one thing, but it worries me that they would attempt this weird type of non-medical "healing" with more serious injuries. Does anybody here with a rudimentary knowledge of Scientology understand this practice of "pain relief?"

[Bronze Dog]

I don't know much about law, but I think the situation you just described calls for police intervention. Or nice men in white coats.

[HarryKeogh]

Here's the explanation. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad...

http://www.essentialauditing.org/page04.htm

Contact Assist

There is a basic principle in Scientology which consists of putting an injured body member exactly on and in the place it was injured. Doing this can have a therapeutic effect and is called a Contact Assist. This is the most common assist for accidents and injuries.

Theory

One of the basics of life’s reactions is to avoid places where one has been hurt. This is a survival factor but it is not analytical (based on rational thought). For example, if one ran into a table and injured himself, he would tend to avoid coming near that spot again. He would think he was avoiding the table, but actually he is avoiding the exact location of the accident. Even if the table were taken away, he would continue to avoid the location where he was injured. This is the basic reason for a Contact Assist.

When the exact spot of the accident or injury is available, always do a Contact Assist. It can be followed by other types of assists, but the Contact Assist should always be done first if the physical objects and location are available

[thatguywhojuggles]

Originally posted by cedric_owl

Does anybody here with a rudimentary knowledge of Scientology understand this practice of "pain relief?"

Hair of the dog?

[Nihilanth]

I read a whole lot about Scientology from the...what was it? Clam Bake Operation? Something like that? Anyway, it was an internet movement to make the literature from the higher echelons of Scientology available to non-initiates. Not sure how much of it was true or not, but judging from that and first-hand accounts of how Scientology ruined people's lives, I think it's entirely possible they practice the whole "Repeat The Accident As A Play" thing, and probably even weirder stuff besides.
Watch out for Body Thetans!

[cedric_owl]

Well it's good to know, from reading the "Helping an Individual Heal Himself" section, that at least Scientology doesn't advocate rejecting medical attention.

Check out the hysterical diagrams in this section:

http://www.essentialauditing.org/page13.htm

[HarryKeogh]

Originally posted by Nihilanth
I read a whole lot about Scientology from the...what was it? Clam Bake Operation? Something like that? Anyway, it was an internet movement to make the literature from the higher echelons of Scientology available to non-initiates. Not sure how much of it was true or not, but judging from that and first-hand accounts of how Scientology ruined people's lives, I think it's entirely possible they practice the whole "Repeat The Accident As A Play" thing, and probably even weirder stuff besides.
Watch out for Body Thetans!

Operation Clambake is a very accurate resource.

Funny thing about assists. Say, I would stub my toe and people I knew that were heavily involved with Scientology would tell me to do an assist. I'd do it and they'd say "does it still hurt?" and I'd say "um, yeah" and they'd say "do it again" and after about 5 minutes the pain would magically disappear!

See? Scientology works!

[Gaga]

that's here: www.xenu.net (http://www.xenu.net)
I think it's one of the most famous websites
(and also the one that had more problem with the COS)

[cedric_owl]

Great site. I wish they could make as in depth an analysis of some other cults and afflliations.

[Matabiri]

So that's what's happening here: he's slamming her hand in the car door repeatedly! Yay Scientology!

http://www-stu.cai.cam.ac.uk/~rk237/science/scient21.jpg

[Nihilanth]

No, no...Actually, that's a good way to pick up women. The scary, masochistic kind that like having their hand repeatedly slammed in car doors, but women nonetheless.

[HarryKeogh]

Originally posted by Matabiri
[B]So that's what's happening here: he's slamming her hand in the car door repeatedly! Yay Scientology!

Is that the Fonz or Potsie in that picture?

cult member's to do list: get around to updating pictures from Scientology minister's handbook...35 years is way too long.

[Calee]

Originally posted by cedric_owl


Now, I don't necessarily want to question people's religious beliefs

You're not. Only questioning Scientology. No religion involved.

[Ashles]

Originally posted by cedric_owl
Well it's good to know, from reading the "Helping an Individual Heal Himself" section, that at least Scientology doesn't advocate rejecting medical attention.

Check out the hysterical diagrams in this section:

http://www.essentialauditing.org/page13.htm
Wow! That is just... wow!
For instance, you say, “Look at that tree.� “Thank you.� “Look at that building.� “Good.� “Look at that street.� “All right.� “Look at that lawn.� “Very good.� You point each time to the object.
The images are great:

http://www.essentialauditing.org/img/assist21.jpg

"Go to your room now young lady! And don't bang your head on the arrow"
Girl's thinking "I hate it when John does that thing where he points to my chest then when I look down he flicks my nose."

[Odin]

Is it true that if I were to link to a picture of L.Ron the scientology lawyers would hunt me down?

[thatguywhojuggles]

http://www.marriageproblems.org/img/l-ron-hubbard.jpg


I'm bored...

[cedric_owl]

Well, it's always nice to see if urban legends are true or not ...

[Vikram]

Truly how deluded does one have to be to believe this?

[malbui]

Originally posted by Vikram
Truly how deluded does one have to be to believe this?
Very good question. I shared an office with a guy for a couple of years who was outrageously smart: trilingual, more technical knowledge in our field than you could shake a stick at, and wide-ranging intellectual interests. Then one day he took off for Florida for an "audit" and that was the last we saw of him. Whatever they're telling people, it must be good to overwhelm critical faculties like that.

[Vikram]

Originally posted by malbui
Very good question. I shared an office with a guy for a couple of years who was outrageously smart: trilingual, more technical knowledge in our field than you could shake a stick at, and wide-ranging intellectual interests. Then one day he took off for Florida for an "audit" and that was the last we saw of him. Whatever they're telling people, it must be good to overwhelm critical faculties like that.

Maybe they have fringe benefits. ;)

[Rolfe]

I had (in fact still have) a friend who was into this for a time - including during three months she lived with me. The weird thing was that although I knew what was going on from bits of literature I found (and her habit of dashing off to East Grinstead at every other moment), she herself was no different. I'd known her since we were 12, and she was the same person.

I don't think she'd into it any more, and I think she managed not to give them all her money.

Rolfe.

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Originally posted by malbui
Very good question. I shared an office with a guy for a couple of years who was outrageously smart: trilingual, more technical knowledge in our field than you could shake a stick at, and wide-ranging intellectual interests. Then one day he took off for Florida for an "audit" and that was the last we saw of him. Whatever they're telling people, it must be good to overwhelm critical faculties like that.

Not everything is "woo", in the begining, all they say makes sense. For example, that page that you all are critiquing, have good stuff. It is true that the attention should be caught before a person, who is emotionally altered, can have an intelligent discussion. Whats wrong about it? they have their peculiar techniques, but that doesnt make them wrong..

Now, of course, once they have your attention by tricks like the ones on that site, then the real wooism start, but thats another matter.

As for the opening post, all I can say is that if the life of the children (or his knee) was not, at all, in danger, then they have the right to do what they believe is best.

[Loki]

Vikram,

Truly how deluded does one have to be to believe this?
Nice summary from an ex-member of just how it all gets started
Here (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&action=showpost&postid=1870765601)

[Vikram]

Originally posted by Loki
Nice summary from an ex-member of just how it all gets started
Here (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&action=showpost&postid=1870765601)

Thanks for the link, Loki.

That was quite enlightening. It really provided a great deal of insight into the anatomy of such a bizarre belief system.

L. Ron Hubbard was/is (is he still alive?) a genius.

[CFLarsen]

Dan Garvin's story:
"I started thinking, and I got carried away." (http://www.skepticreport.com/mystics/dangarvin.htm)

[PixyMisa]

Hubbard died in 1986, though he was still writing books a decade later.

[Ladewig]

Originally posted by Vikram
L. Ron Hubbard was/is (is he still alive?) a genius.

Yeah, everytime I look at this photo (http://www.lisamcpherson.org/cos/images/tomato.jpg), the only word that comes to mind is "genius."

Just kidding. I understand your point. Especially clever is their approach to people who leave the church and consider bringing lawsuits. The first step to joining the church is to confess all the embarassing and illegal things things one has ever done. The auditors tell you to include all the big lies that you have ever told. If one then threatens a lawsuit, the church officials say, "well, in the courtroom, we'll have to ask why anyone should believe a documented liar such as yourself - we'll have to produce the written record of your first meeting to show how often you tell lies and once that report is introduced into evidence, your friends, family, and employer will learn about all those things that you did in your younger days. With that in mind, perhaps you want to reconsider your lawsuit."

Letting celebrities join for free and having shlubs pay money in order to wait on the celebrities is also rather clever.

If I were starting a church (and were completely amoral), I would have a hard time coming up with anything that I would do differently from L.Ron's approach.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Rolfe
*snip*(and her habit of dashing off to East Grinstead at every other moment) *snip*
Rolfe. That alone should say a lot. Isn't East Grinstead about the worst place to go? ... Or have I just watched too much Monty Phyton?

Hans

[Rolfe]

East Grinstead is the heart of woo-ism on earth. Among other things, it houses the UK headquarters of Scientology. I have a freind who used to be GP there, and she has some pretty hairy tales to tell of their chid-care standards and so on.

Rolfe.

[Ossai]

Vikram
Truly how deluded does one have to be to believe this?

I worked with someone that religiously (pun intended) visits chiropractors. He usually switches out among three of them. The chiropractors are all related, two brothers and a brother in law I believe. Anyway all three are into scientology to some extent and two quiet heavily.
He usually comments on their new receptionist, usually on her looks. They always have a new receptionist every few months. He is friends with one of their former receptionists and from what he related they basically force scientology on their office help. If the office help doesn’t swallow it they are invariably let go. They also have a tendency to talk about scientology while he’s being ‘worked on’.

Now, I’ve commented on scientology to him and gave him links to Operation Clambake and after reading it and doing a bit of research he knows that scientology is a cult. However when I did the same thing with chiropractic practices he stands by and proclaims that his chiropractors are different and really help him. Yet he continues to go back almost every week.

Ossai

[The Odd Emperor]

Originally posted by Ladewig
Yeah, everytime I look at this photo (http://www.lisamcpherson.org/cos/images/tomato.jpg), the only word that comes to mind is "genius."

Letting celebrities join for free and having shlubs pay money in order to wait on the celebrities is also rather clever.

If I were starting a church (and were completely amoral), I would have a hard time coming up with anything that I would do differently from L.Ron's approach.

He was a genius in a manner of speaking. He’s as close to a “Doctor Evil� character that US society has created. Hubbard used the system and the natural fallibilities of some people to gain a cult following. He understood that some people really want to believe something, wrote Dianetics right off the top of his head and went up a gentile gradient himself into the role of a cult leader. I don’t think he set out to do this but He’s always stuck me as someone who thrived on power and influence. Never satisfied with his current position he always wanted more. It destroyed him in the end because some of the people around Hubbard were even more rapacious and greedy then he.

[Vikram]

Originally posted by PixyMisa
Hubbard died in 1986, though he was still writing books a decade later.
An uncle of mine is a brilliant engineer and a very intelligent individual. And he believes that Arthur Conan Doyle wrote a book half a century after his death, by channeling his words through a medium.

He also believes in pyramidology and everything that Daniken says.

Ah well...


(edited to correct spelling of 'Daniken')

[vbloke]

Originally posted by Ossai
Vikram

However when I did the same thing with chiropractic practices he stands by and proclaims that his chiropractors are different and really help him. Yet he continues to go back almost every week.

Ossai

I cannot be hypnotised. I remind the hypnotist of this every Wednesday when I go round his house to wash his car.

[Vikram]

Originally posted by Ossai
They also have a tendency to talk about scientology while he’s being ‘worked on’.
I suppose that's perhaps the one defining trait of all religions - Proselytization.

[HarryKeogh]

Originally posted by PixyMisa
Hubbard died in 1986, though he was still writing books a decade later.

well, he didn't die so much as "depart his body";)

http://www.scientology.org/html/en_US/l-ron-hubbard/chronicle/pg017.html

On 24 January 1986, having accomplished all he set out to do, Ron departs his body. With millions using his technology daily and crediting him with providing the sole means for their happiness and spiritual fulfillment, he has become one of the most beloved men in history. His many friends continue to express their thanks in acknowledgment of the fact that although his physical presence is gone, he is still very much with us in spirit and the legacy of his work lives on.

"one of the most beloved men in history"...there's your laugh for a Monday morning!

[cedric_owl]

"One of the most beloved men in History?"

Even the most staunch Scientologist has to admit how laughable that sentence is.

[The Odd Emperor]

Originally posted by cedric_owl
"One of the most beloved men in History?"

Even the most staunch Scientologist has to admit how laughable that sentence is.

They actually believe this, with all their heart. According to many Scientologists, he is also one of the giants of literature, world explorer, war hero, nuclear physicist, biologist, “cult fighter,� humanist and philanthropist.

On the inside of Scientology and in almost all their literature you are bombarded by glowing descriptions of this man. On the outside he *looks* like mearly a second rate pulp author with an inferiority complex. When you dig a little deeper you find out the real life story of Mr. Hubbard. A fascinating tale in its own right. Almost nothing about this man is as it meets the eye. He’s been called one of the greatest con men in history and I think that description is probably more true than many.

[cedric_owl]

One of the most popular urban legends regarding scientology is that it started as a bet--somebody wagered that Hubbard couldn't effectively get a large group of people to follow a silly, made-up religion.

[The Odd Emperor]

Originally posted by cedric_owl
One of the most popular urban legends regarding scientology is that it started as a bet--somebody wagered that Hubbard couldn't effectively get a large group of people to follow a silly, made-up religion.

I think this is pretty much what it sounds like, an urban legend. I’ve heard it attributed to at least three well know science fiction authors. I believe Harlan Ellison claims responsibility but the earliest reference I’ve run across was back when he was living with Jack Parsons in 1945. (Long before Ellison even met Hubbard.)

At parson’s “hippy pad� he was introduced to some of Aleister Crowley’s beliefs and (apparently) adopted some of them into what was to become Scientology.
http://www.watchman.org/sci/hubmagk2.htm
http://www.ronthenut.org/adultry.htm

[Thinking in CT]

Get a load of this article in today's New York Times.



It seems as if the cost of doing business with Cruise is going up; but not too steeply for Hollywood.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by The Odd Emperor
I think this is pretty much what it sounds like, an urban legend. I’ve heard it attributed to at least three well know science fiction authors. I believe Harlan Ellison claims responsibility but the earliest reference I’ve run across was back when he was living with Jack Parsons in 1945. (Long before Ellison even met Hubbard.)

At parson’s “hippy pad� he was introduced to some of Aleister Crowley’s beliefs and (apparently) adopted some of them into what was to become Scientology.
http://www.watchman.org/sci/hubmagk2.htm
http://www.ronthenut.org/adultry.htm Do you think there's any truth in the story that when John Campbell rejected some work of Hubbard's, he (Hubbard) retorted something along the lines of "up yours, I'm off to found my own religion"?

Rolfe.

[The Odd Emperor]

Originally posted by Rolfe
Do you think there's any truth in the story that when John Campbell rejected some work of Hubbard's, he (Hubbard) retorted something along the lines of "up yours, I'm off to found my own religion"?

Rolfe.

There is no way to know any more. Hubbard figured in a whole slew of legends of that period. I can believe that he might be rather touchy about getting a rejection notice though. Notice that all his later works with the exception of an early edition of Battlefield Earth were self published though Scientology.

My feeling is, despite what he might have said; Hubbard was not really out to start a religion, not in the beginning anyway. Dianetics is a pop-psychology book and it wasn’t until people started *independently* setting up Dianetic “centers� that Hubbard realized he had something and took control. It wasn’t until the IRS began to tax and audit the movement that Hubbard transformed it into a religion.

To this day, Scientology and Dianetics are called “scientific� within the organization.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by The Odd Emperor
My feeling is, despite what he might have said; Hubbard was not really out to start a religion, not in the beginning anyway. Dianetics is a pop-psychology book and it wasn’t until people started *independently* setting up Dianetic “centers� that Hubbard realized he had something and took control. It wasn’t until the IRS began to tax and audit the movement that Hubbard transformed it into a religion. Very good points. Oh well, there goes my belief in yet another shaggy dog story.

Rolfe.

[cedric_owl]

Hey, wanna play a game? It's called, "find the celebrity to lose the most respect for!"

http://www.celebritycentre.org/en_US/news/2004/lw0804/index.html

Anybody notice how much the CoS seems to slowly be morphing into some kind of weird, high-profile talent talent agency?

[Jono]

Having the respect of an actor depend on what theistic belief they ascribe is like having the respect of a politician depend on their acting skills :)

[Jono]

Scientology is not very "huge" in Sweden, so I've had no experience with it what so ever.
Only read a few articles about it and listened to scientologists talk, though to me anyway it didn't even strike me as being common sense.

I did know however that there was a growing number of followers amongst Hollywood visible actors.

[RSLancastr]

Originally posted by Vikram
I suppose that's perhaps the one defining trait of all religions - Proselytization. Not so. Judaism, for example, is not known for proselytization.

Edited to add:

And even though I live within blocks of a huge Buddhist temple, I have never seen them doing any prosyletizing.

[valis]

Nancy Cartwright is also a Scientologist.

Who is she?

The voice of Bart Simpson.

Poor Bart, it figures he would fall for something like this.

What can we say but "Ay Carumba!"

[Timothy]

J. Michael Straczynski (sci-fi, fantasy, horror, comic book writer, producer, etc. most popularly known as the creator of TV's "Babylon 5", and who used to be very active in USENET newsgroups about 5-10 years ago) claimed that he was at the party when L. Ron Hubbard said that he could create a religion out of whole cloth and make a profit out of it. Although I remember reading this claim several times many years ago, when Googling now I can find no citation to JMS's quote to that effect.

- Timothy

[Desertphile]

Does anybody here with a rudimentary knowledge of Scientology understand this practice of "pain relief?"

Yes, it is to "restimulate" until the act no longer "impinges" upon one's "reactive mind." Scientology customers are told that repeating an injury over and over again will make the pain go away--- victims, usually children, eventually tell their parents that the "restimulation" has caused the pain to stop because the "restimulation" hurts.

The crime syndicate publishes "wins" now and then that include the insane act. One "win"was of a man who saw a woman pinch her finger in her automobile's door. He ran up to her and told her to bang her hand against the car's door until the pain went away. In the "win" story, the woman did so and the pain went away. She then gushed amazed thanks at him and the wonderful "technology" of L. Ron Hubbard.

It should be noted that the adults don't actually believe this crap: they force their children to "restimulate" an injury as a cure--- the adults themselves rush to get proper treatment.

[Desertphile]

Originally posted by Matabiri
So that's what's happening here: he's slamming her hand in the car door repeatedly! Yay Scientology!

http://www-stu.cai.cam.ac.uk/~rk237/science/scient21.jpg

Ah yes! That's it! This ends up in Freedom[sic] magazine now and then: customers cannot think up a "win" of their own so they barrow one from crime syndicate publications.

The images here are from the Vulture "Ministers" handbook.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Timothy
J. Michael Straczynski (sci-fi, fantasy, horror, comic book writer, producer, etc. most popularly known as the creator of TV's "Babylon 5", and who used to be very active in USENET newsgroups about 5-10 years ago) claimed that he was at the party when L. Ron Hubbard said that he could create a religion out of whole cloth and make a profit out of it. Although I remember reading this claim several times many years ago, when Googling now I can find no citation to JMS's quote to that effect.Common conversation amoung Babylon 5 fans:
Q. How can you tell that JMS is lying?
A. His fingers are moving!

I wouldn't put it past him to have claimed to have witnessed a chunk of urban legend, quite honestly.

Rolfe.

[Minkster]

Originally posted by cedric_owl
Hey, wanna play a game? It's called, "find the celebrity to lose the most respect for!"

http://www.celebritycentre.org/en_US/news/2004/lw0804/index.html

Anybody notice how much the CoS seems to slowly be morphing into some kind of weird, high-profile talent talent agency?


OhmiGod....I can't believe that Doug E Fresh is a woo too!

[Darat]

Martin Gardner on Dianetics back in the 50s. http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/gardner/

[Jono]

He understood that some people really want to believe something, wrote Dianetics right off the top of his head and went up a gentile gradient himself into the role of a cult leader.

Well I wouldn't say at the top of his head as so perhaps.
Before Hubbard's coining of "Scientology" there was a Dr Anastasius Nordenholz who wrote a pre-Hubbard book called "Scientology: Science of the Constitution and Usefulness of Knowledge" and it was first published in 1934 by the Publishing House "Ernst Reinhardt" in Munich, Germany.
Which also included gradiation charts and allusions to states of awareness that were very similar to the ones Hubbard later "came up with".
http://www.scientologie.de/scientologie/english.htm

As far as I know Hubbard didn't start his attempt to "codify certain axioms and phenomena" until 1938.
And "Dianetics" is seemingly nothing more than a altered interpretation/form of Psychiatric therapy called Aberactive Therapy, which was extensively used to treat WWII soldiers suffering from "shell shock" or Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome.

Furthermore, a Professor William Sargant had already written the book "Battle of the Mind" which is to be a recommended reading for anyone who has read Dianetics.

http://www.lermanet.com/scientology/scientologyandcommunism.htm

http://www.lermanet.com/scientific.htm

And the E-meter? Well it is mostly a sprouted branch of electrotherapy, which a certian John Wesley (1704-1791) is considered to be a pioneer of.
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/topics/history/PSCF12-95Malony.html

Interesting curiosa to know is that Hubbard called Aleister Crowley "my very good friend".
http://www.lermanet.com/scientology-and-occult/

[Jeff Corey]

.....And the E-meter? Well it is mostly a sprouted branch of electrotherapy, which a certian John Wesley (1704-1791) is considered to be a pioneer of.
The measurement of the GSR was first published by Tarchanoff in 1889. It did not deliver electric shocks, but measured the DC potential across the skin.

[CaptainManacles]

wow, somebody dragged this thread off the bottom of the discard pile

[JPK]

Good morning
wow, somebody dragged this thread off the bottom of the discard pile

And without mentioning the new South Park episode with Tom Fooze.
JPK

[Jono]

wow, somebody dragged this thread off the bottom of the discard pile

Well what can I say? I'm a bottom feeder :)

[LotusMegami]

I now have even more respect for South Park. No more veiled references and metaphors. They laid the smack down on Scientology.

[luchog]

I think this is pretty much what it sounds like, an urban legend. I’ve heard it attributed to at least three well know science fiction authors. I believe Harlan Ellison claims responsibility but the earliest reference I’ve run across was back when he was living with Jack Parsons in 1945. (Long before Ellison even met Hubbard.)

At parson’s “hippy pad� he was introduced to some of Aleister Crowley’s beliefs and (apparently) adopted some of them into what was to become Scientology.
http://www.watchman.org/sci/hubmagk2.htm
http://www.ronthenut.org/adultry.htm
It's most definitely an urban legend, and Hubbard's own writings indicate that he had speculated about creating a new religions, and had the basis laid down, long before he met the writers whom that bet is commonly attributed too (the usual version involves Heinlein).

He did have a brief flirtation with Crowley's "magick", and supposedly tried working some of the more arcane rituals with another disciple. Crowley, according to his own writings, couldn't stand the man and considered him a buffoon and an idiot. But then, Crowley tended to form strong dislikes of anyone who could garner more attention than he could.

[bagtaggar]

Come on, Tom. Come out of the closet, you're not fooling anyone.



Anyone catch South Park?

[alock]

Contact Assist

There is a basic principle in Scientology which consists of putting an injured body member exactly on and in the place it was injured. Doing this can have a therapeutic effect and is called a Contact Assist. This is the most common assist for accidents and injuries.

Does this imply that if I accidentally hit Tom Cruise over the head with a baseball bat, he would ask me to hit him again several more times :-)

[Freethinker]

Does this imply that if I accidentally hit Tom Cruise over the head with a baseball bat, he would ask me to hit him again several more times :-)

Maybe he wouldn't, but I would!

[force_redo]

Contact Assist

There is a basic principle in Scientology which consists of putting an injured body member exactly on and in the place it was injured. Doing this can have a therapeutic effect and is called a Contact Assist. This is the most common assist for accidents and injuries.


That's actually how I try to cure my hangovers from binge drinking.
[off to the pub for the next five days]

FR

[Moochie]

I am simultaneously appalled and amazed that seemingly intelligent people can fall for this claptrap.

I did say "seemingly intelligent" people...

M.

[kevin]

I am simultaneously appalled and amazed that seemingly intelligent people can fall for this claptrap.

I did say "seemingly intelligent" people...

M.

I have to say that in all my years of being around smart people (private college prep high school, engineering school, working with engineers, etc...) I'm not convinced that smart == skeptic, or even leads to critical thinking.

I've seen some very smart people believe some very stupid things. And I'm half convinced it was their belief in their own infallibility, and their belief that expertise in one field means expertise in all fields.

[Hellbound]

I have to say that in all my years of being around smart people (private college prep high school, engineering school, working with engineers, etc...) I'm not convinced that smart == skeptic, or even leads to critical thinking.

I've seen some very smart people believe some very stupid things. And I'm half convinced it was their belief in their own infallibility, and their belief that expertise in one field means expertise in all fields.

Just to second this idea. I think "smart", as we usually measure it, it simply an ability to pick up and recognize patterns. "Woo-ish" thinking is, essentially, the problem of identifying non-existent or invalid patterns. In cases where the person has never learned criticial thinking, or how to apply it, I think beiong smart can actually make you more susceptible to some of the strange ideas out there.

[luchog]

Not so. Judaism, for example, is not known for proselytization.

Edited to add:

And even though I live within blocks of a huge Buddhist temple, I have never seen them doing any prosyletizing.
There are several, most notably the Druse religion, and Zoroastrianism; that no only do not proselytize, but do not allow conversion either. One must be born into the religion.

[hellaeon]

:jaw-dropp

Truly how deluded does one have to be to believe this?

I second this, totally amazed. I feel like im reading special cards from a teacher in first grade

[Jono]

Well "seemingly intelligent" or not, it is of obvious reasons Wooism 101.

It's a treat to discuss with members of the Scient. Church, dismissing every bit of criticism outright as a lie while at the same time remaining willfully ignorant of the fact that they are generally uninitiated to these matters, probably moreso than a lot of non-members.

For example, the OT-levels and the halfwitted dogma therein is not revealed until years and years of coughin up money for more courses, if the authority figures deem the person to be "impressible" enough they become initiated as so... therefore it is not simply a denial of their experiences but a denial of aspects that they have never seen or heard about within Scientology and subsequently are ordered not to engage in for it could have fatal or serious effects upon the person.

I can ask for these "secret" documents from my government, as despite serials of lawsuits against them, ex-members and researchers of the S. Church have made these documents available.

Therefore your regular Scientologian honestly has no or little knowledge of much criticism.
Like being a christian but only allowed to read certain parts of the bible while defending it against the criticism of the "secret" and uninitiated parts.
So amongst the more common frases I've encountered while discussing such matters with scientologians are "criticism leads to intolerance".
This "mantra", as it seems to be just that, appears in various forms here and there within the defence from the unitiated members.

Which naturally brings to mind the classical anecdote frase that philosophy is to ask questions without having answers while religion is to have answers without allowing them to be questioned.

Would be boring if it wasn't so funny :)

[lawman]

L Ron's cult, Scientology, are doing everything in their considerable power to seduce members of a questionable" profession",Chiropractors, into joining this dangerous group., They do this by selling the DC on a "new" management system that does not disclose it's true foundation(Scientology) until after the DC has invested heavily in the new management system . By then, the greed of the DC, combined with their general willingness to believe the incedible, "hooks" the DC into buying the whole Scientology package. By the time the DC has been "audited" into telling the "managers" of the DC's practice everything the DC ever did wrong or illegal the DC just cannot quit, the need for income and the fact that the "church" has nonpriveliged confessions from the DC means the DC cannot walk away without the real fear that they will be subject to "fair game" by the "church" and loose the source of their incomes. Pretty neat trick, you have to acknowldge they do know how to run a scam.

[Psiload]

L Ron's cult, Scientology, are doing everything in their considerable power to seduce members of a questionable" profession",Chiropractors, into joining this dangerous group., They do this by selling the DC on a "new" management system that does not disclose it's true foundation(Scientology) until after the DC has invested heavily in the new management system . By then, the greed of the DC, combined with their general willingness to believe the incedible, "hooks" the DC into buying the whole Scientology package. By the time the DC has been "audited" into telling the "managers" of the DC's practice everything the DC ever did wrong or illegal the DC just cannot quit, the need for income and the fact that the "church" has nonpriveliged confessions from the DC means the DC cannot walk away without the real fear that they will be subject to "fair game" by the "church" and loose the source of their incomes. Pretty neat trick, you have to acknowldge they do know how to run a scam. Scientology and chiropractic... a match made in heaven. Actually, a match made in hell is more like it.

The drug-free and woo woo riddled philosophy of chiropractic dovetails nicely with the scientology brand of lunacy.

Did you know that the scientology "E-meter" was invented by a chiropractor? Well now you do.

David Singer Enterprises is the name of the scientology "management consultant" which is going after the chiropractors. Otherwise known as "The Singer System". This is about the one and only situation where I can almost feel sorry for the poor schlub chiropractors...

Almost being the operative word.

[Hitch]

L Ron's cult, Scientology, are doing everything in their considerable power to seduce members of a questionable" profession",Chiropractors, into joining this dangerous group., They do this by selling the DC on a "new" management system that does not disclose it's true foundation(Scientology) until after the DC has invested heavily in the new management system . By then, the greed of the DC, combined with their general willingness to believe the incedible, "hooks" the DC into buying the whole Scientology package. By the time the DC has been "audited" into telling the "managers" of the DC's practice everything the DC ever did wrong or illegal the DC just cannot quit, the need for income and the fact that the "church" has nonpriveliged confessions from the DC means the DC cannot walk away without the real fear that they will be subject to "fair game" by the "church" and loose the source of their incomes. Pretty neat trick, you have to acknowldge they do know how to run a scam.
But the whole thing will fall apart the first time they try it on a Chiropractor who's never done anything wrong or illegal.


...oh, wait...

[lawman]

Hitch,
Oh wait...
Find me a Chiropractor that has never done anything wrong or illegal....SURE!
Do you include "unethical" in your definition of wrongness? (unethical in a moral sense, not a term used to define the boundry of conduct of a group or "set" of people)
and Query me this....
What do you say to the Chiropractor,wearing a suit, in a courtroom?
"Will the defendant please rise?"

[lawman]

Lets get things stirred up here,
Who has heard of the beleif in "silent birth", and is Tom Cruise going to force this nonsense on his new bride/mother to be?

[ChristineR]

Since somebody bumped this thread....

http://www.xenu.net/archive/personal_story/funkydonny.html

This is a pretty good explanation of how a reasonable person can get into Scientology. They start with the false but plausible basic principle that your mind is full of subconscious thoughts messing you up, demonstrate that auditing does, in fact work (even better than Homeopathy), and then start adding small but increasingly odder bits, like the claim that you have an immortal soul--oh and the soul can remember stuff that happened before your birth...ultimately leading up to Xenu and the psychiatrists.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Lets get things stirred up here,
Who has heard of the beleif in "silent birth", and is Tom Cruise going to force this nonsense on his new bride/mother to be?
Yes, and yes.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9620245/

[lawman]

Thanks for the Cruise article, he is an idiot, and now they are making more idiots, which proves the "shrinking gene pool theory"......
what next, "chiropractic-assisted-silent birth"?