Maryland teen protests Pledge of Allegiance being recited in foreign languages

[Ladewig]

lNCB story (http://www.nbc4i.com/education/4271505/detail.html)

MILLERSVILLE, Md. -- A ninth-grader is protesting the broadcasting of the Pledge of Allegiance in foreign languages as part of National Foreign Language Week.

"This is America, and we got soldiers at war," said 15-year-old Patrick Linton. "When you're saying the Pledge in a different language which nobody understands, that's not OK."

[snip]

Charles Linton, Patrick's father, said the use of other languages is disrespectful to the country.

"It's like wearing a cross upside down in a church," said Charles Linton of Glen Burnie.

School system officials said the activity will continue, with the English version of the Pledge being read first for the rest of the week.

"This is just a way to connect what's going on in the classroom and this daily activity where we say the Pledge of Allegiance," said Jonathan Brice, a spokesman for the Anne Arundel County Public Schools. The pledge was to be read in Spanish, French, Latin, Russian and German.

Brice pointed out that students must complete two years of foreign language study to attend the University of Maryland.

Linton was absent from school on Monday. At the end of his class Tuesday, the announcements came over the loudspeaker as usual, he said. But the Pledge was recited in another language - French, he later found out.

"I looked around, and I was like, 'What's going on?"' Patrick said. "We're at war right now, and our schools are supposed to be patriotic," he said.

Bret Lovejoy, executive director of the American Council for the Teaching of Foreign Languages, said, "America is about promoting democracy."

He described translating the Pledge as "an innocent and harmless way to get children interested in other languages."

So, it is unpatriotic to pledge alligence to the flag of the United States of America if you are speaking a foreign language. Not just unpatriotic, offensive, too. As offensive as wearing a cross upside down in a church.

And yet with all that stupidity, the boy manages to top himself and his father by deciding the way to protest such behavior is to not go to school at all. "I'll have less education - yeah, that'll teach them."

[TragicMonkey]

I'm sure all the US soldiers killed in Iraq who had spoken Spanish as their first language would have been amused to hear how unpatriotic it is to hear the pledge in that language.

[Batman Jr.]

...with liberty and justice for just people who speak English! No, that's not how it goes. How does the pledge end again anyway? :p

[toddjh]

The guy is only fifteen. I know I thought some pretty dumb things at that age, too.

Edited to add: ooh, the father's in on it, too. Now him I'm willing to give less benefit of the doubt.

Jeremy

[Rob Lister]

Originally posted by Ladewig
lNCB story (http://www.nbc4i.com/education/4271505/detail.html)



So, it is unpatriotic to pledge alligence to the flag of the United States of America if you are speaking a foreign language. Not just unpatriotic, offensive, too. As offensive as wearing a cross upside down in a church.

And yet with all that stupidity, the boy manages to top himself and his father by deciding the way to protest such behavior is to not go to school at all. "I'll have less education - yeah, that'll teach them."

There are a number of Americans that believe that English (or better said, 'Merican') should be the official language of the U.S. I'm a little torn on the issue myself but tend to lean a bit away from that viewpoint. There are good arguments on both sides of the issue. For example; I don't think it is unpatriotic to recite the pledge in a foreign language but I do think it is a waste of time and resources. I'm not real big on the whole 'multicultural' aspect of it either.

[kimiko]

Originally posted by Ladewig
So, it is unpatriotic to pledge alligence to the flag of the United States of America if you are speaking a foreign language. Not just unpatriotic, offensive, too. As offensive as wearing a cross upside down in a church.

And yet with all that stupidity, the boy manages to top himself and his father by deciding the way to protest such behavior is to not go to school at all. "I'll have less education - yeah, that'll teach them." I think it's interesting he considers speaking english to be especially patriotic as we don't have an official language.

It's also interesting what he seems to be implying here: "When you're saying the Pledge in a different language which nobody understands, that's not OK." That patriotic sentiments mean nothing unless others see and understand you? If he ever returns to school, someone should explain that patriotism is emotional, not physical.

[thaiboxerken]

I'm pretty sure this kid will register as a Republican the first time he votes. Odds are that his dad is Republican.

[Ladewig]

Originally posted by Rob Lister
For example; I don't think it is unpatriotic to recite the pledge in a foreign language but I do think it is a waste of time and resources. I'm not real big on the whole 'multicultural' aspect of it either.

Waste of time and resources? Each day, sixty seconds was used to illustrate what the pledge sounded like in different languages in order to promote interest in foreign languages. There was no "multicultural" aspect of it - Latin was one of the languages.

[billydkid]

Originally posted by Ladewig
lNCB story (http://www.nbc4i.com/education/4271505/detail.html)



So, it is unpatriotic to pledge alligence to the flag of the United States of America if you are speaking a foreign language. Not just unpatriotic, offensive, too. As offensive as wearing a cross upside down in a church.

And yet with all that stupidity, the boy manages to top himself and his father by deciding the way to protest such behavior is to not go to school at all. "I'll have less education - yeah, that'll teach them."

The Pledge of Allegiance is fundamentally unAmerican in character anyway.

[Luciana]

Latin is a dead language. No one speaks that language anymore, except in Vatican city, in some rituals.

Using Latin to pay tribute to Latin languages is absolutely dumb, as no speakers of Latin-derived languages will understand it!!! And I know because I have studied Latin, being Portuguese my native language, and while I could grasp some of it, many times the similarity would just complicate things.

It the aim is to interest children in languages - and I doubt its efficiency, but still -, at least choose meaningful language, one more in contact with their reality. For many reasons, Spanish would be much more sensible.

But, English, if not the official language, is the lingua franca inside the US. Therefore, using it should be, in itself, a sign of integration. I also find the notion of hearing the same words over and over in a language will not promote multiculturalism or respect or whatever, it will be just give the idea that something is being done about it.

And as a kid who had to sing La Marseilleise every Monday morning... let me tell you that very soon there will be alternative lyrics to it, and they will be hilarious, and mention the principal. We respected our own national anthem, but poor La Mayonaise....

[hgc]

Originally posted by Ladewig
Waste of time and resources? Each day, sixty seconds was used to illustrate what the pledge sounded like in different languages in order to promote interest in foreign languages. There was no "multicultural" aspect of it - Latin was one of the languages. Don't worry much about it. "Waste of time and resources" is like "tax and spend liberal;" just a meaningless, thoughtless incantation of political fealty to the party line.

I mean, really. Rob couldn't have actually thought that translating the pledge of allegiance into a few languages is a waste of resources. Afterall don't they sit around translating things in language classes all the time anyway?

[TragicMonkey]

The languages were probably chosen because those are the languages taught in US high schools. French, Spanish, German, Latin, and occasionally Russian.

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery
Latin is a dead language. No one speaks that language anymore, except in Vatican city, in some rituals.

Using Latin to pay tribute to Latin languages is absolutely dumb, as no speakers of Latin-derived languages will understand it!!! And I know because I have studied Latin, being Portuguese my native language, and while I could grasp some of it, many times the similarity would just complicate things.

It the aim is to interest children in languages - and I doubt its efficiency, but still -, at least choose meaningful language, one more in contact with their reality. For many reasons, Spanish would be much more sensible.

But, English, if not the official language, is the lingua franca inside the US. Therefore, using it should be, in itself, a sign of integration. I also find the notion of hearing the same words over and over in a language will not promote multiculturalism or respect or whatever, it will be just give the idea that something is being done about it.


Smokers, people, they do the frigging Pledge in english for 175 of the 180 days of school. Is that not good enough? They aren't going to get confused to have it read in a foreign language for one week.

This is one week, "Foreign Language Week" at the school, where they are doing the pledge in other languages. They are using a different language every day. French on one day. Latin another. I'm sure they are also doing Spanish, and probably German.

They do it because it's FUN! It's part of the school theme, and it doesn't violate the constitution.

It gets kids interested in languages, which, as noted, are a requirement for college in Maryland. And yes, Latin qualifies as a foreign language in this regard.

sheesh

[Rob Lister]

Originally posted by hgc
Don't worry much about it. "Waste of time and resources" is like "tax and spend liberal;" just a meaningless, thoughtless incantation of political fealty to the party line.

I mean, really. Rob couldn't have actually thought that translating the pledge of allegiance into a few languages is a waste of resources. Afterall don't they sit around translating things in language classes all the time anyway?

*heavy sigh*

[Luciana]

Do people really teach Latin in US high schools? I'd really love to understand the rationale behind this, because, as a language teacher, and having studied Latin in college, I believe that Latin is of no interest for anyone not specifically interested in languages.

Learning Latin does offer a basis for accelerating the learning of Latin-based languages - but so does any live Latin language. So, if you learn Spanish, French becomes easier. There is no need to add a dead language to the equation. Latin isn't even foreign. It is dead.

pgwenthold - telling the pledge in other languages, if it's meant to be fun, it's ok. But Latin is still unforgivable, imho.

[Upchurch]

I'm curious. What "different language" does "nobody understand"? How could the pledge be spoken in such a language? ;)


I don't know what is worse: Idiot kids or idiot adults who reward kids for being idiots.

[TragicMonkey]

Latin is handy for improving one's English.

Legal and medical terms still crop up in Latin, and Latin-based words.

And it's naturally vital if you wind up studying European, Roman, or church history.

Since the fluency level attained in any language during two years of study in high school isn't going to be very high in any case, it's not really a waste to spend the time on Latin as opposed to a modern language.

[TragicMonkey]

Originally posted by Upchurch
I'm curious. What "different language" does "nobody understand"? How could the pledge be spoken in such a language? ;)

Linear B?

Or was that cracked already?

[Rob Lister]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery
Do people really teach Latin in US high schools? I'd really love to understand the rationale behind this, because, as a language teacher, and having studied Latin in college, I believe that Latin is of no interest for anyone not specifically interested in languages.

Learning Latin does offer a basis for accelerating the learning of Latin-based languages - but so does any live Latin language. So, if you learn Spanish, French becomes easier. There is no need to add a dead language to the equation. Latin isn't even foreign. It is dead.

pgwenthold - telling the pledge in other languages, if it's meant to be fun, it's ok. But Latin is still unforgivable, imho.

My oldest has three years of latin under his belt. He goes to a public high school but it is a health science academy. Latin is not required for his courses but it is strongly encouraged. He is also in his forth year of spanish and states that the Latin may have helped some with that but not much (in his estimation).

[Luciana]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
Latin is handy for improving one's English.

Legal and medical terms still crop up in Latin, and Latin-based words.

Prefixes, suffixes and roots. Is that what is taught? I can't see the problem with that. But does the teaching include declensions or reading of texts in Latin?

Considering that most Latin words in the English language have been acquired from French, learning French would make much more sense. However, I can see how French could be politically incorrect.

And it's naturally vital if you wind up studying European, Roman, or church history.

At college level, of course. Why invest any time or effort in that in high school? I could make a case for more useful subjects.

Since the fluency level attained in any language during two years of study in high school isn't going to be very high in any case, it's not really a waste to spend the time on Latin as opposed to a modern language.

That's a weak argument - so, if it's wasted time, let's make it as useless as possible? Not quite.

[LostAngeles]

Originally posted by Rob Lister
My oldest has three years of latin under his belt. He goes to a public high school but it is a health science academy. Latin is not required for his courses but it is strongly encouraged. He is also in his forth year of spanish and states that the Latin may have helped some with that but not much (in his estimation).

Latin was encouraged for all students intending to take the SATs due to all them thar Latin root things in English.

I took French classes and art classes instead of doubling up on languages and got a 710 the first time and a 740 the second time on the verbal, but then the English classes were very SAT geared. (I'd hate to see it due to the MCAS testing now, but I digress.)

The downside of not taking Latin was I missed orgies, being a pupe, and the 40-minute long clown joke.

[Luciana]

Originally posted by Rob Lister
He is also in his forth year of spanish and states that the Latin may have helped some with that but not much (in his estimation).

Indeed, it helps. But if instead of spending time with learning Latin, "to help" Spanish, why not just focus on Spanish itself? Latin is of no help for verbs, gender or basic sentence structure in regard to modern day languages. It IS a waste of time unless you have specific interest in languages, for whatever reason.

[hgc]

Originally posted by Rob Lister
*heavy sigh* Yes, I know exactly what you mean, except for every word of it. If you'd like to explain how translating and reading the pledge is a waste of time and resources, I'd love to hear about it.

[hgc]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery
Do people really teach Latin in US high schools? ... I had a year of Latin in high school, but after I got in, I found out that we would be reading and writing Latin only, with no spoken. Complete waste of time.

[Rob Lister]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery
Indeed, it helps. But if instead of spending time with learning Latin, "to help" Spanish, why not just focus on Spanish itself? Latin is of no help for verbs, gender or basic sentence structure in regard to modern day languages. It IS a waste of time unless you have specific interest in languages, for whatever reason.

He takes it because they recommended he take it. Probably because it is specifically tailored to health-science. I don't think he'll take it in his senior year. I just asked him if it had helped him in any of his medical courses, like anatomy, and he said (his words), "Well, maybe, but it's not like you see the name of a muscle and go 'Wow! That's a derivative!' I guess it makes them easier to remember though.''

So, in a nutshell, I don't know.

[Luciana]

Originally posted by LostAngeles
Latin was encouraged for all students intending to take the SATs due to all them thar Latin root things in English.


But then it's not Latin. It's a clarification of an aspect of the English language. Because Latin is vocabulary and everything else.

[Luciana]

Originally posted by hgc
I had a year of Latin in high school, but after I got in, I found out that we would be reading and writing Latin only, with no spoken. Complete waste of time.

It would be a worse waste of time had you been forced to learn how to speak it. Because spoken Latin is... it doesn't even exist, considering that no one has been able to reach a consensus on its phonetic system (that is bound to have changed throughout the centuries anyway). What could be the possible use of speaking Latin for 99,99% of the population of the world??

If by learning Latin you mean learning the meaning of affixes and roots, then I sustain that is English that you're learning.

[LostAngeles]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery
But then it's not Latin. It's a clarification of an aspect of the English language. Because Latin is vocabulary and everything else.

Yes, exactly. I'm not sure, aside from being pupes, having "Latin" names, having orgies, and the 40-minute long clown joke what they did. I do know that the average SAT verbal score was in the low 500s for my class. *preens her 700+ scores*

Also, I am quite sure that my friend who did take several years of Latin is now a translator.

For Sega (http://www.sega.co.jp/) (of America).

As far as helping Spanish? I've noticed that my knowledge of French helps when looking at Spanish writing since they're both Romance languages. And I've been able to tell a language being spoken was Italian since it was neither French, nor Spanish, but was similar to both and if I recollect correctly, there's only three Romance languages. (Which begs the question, what's Portugese?)

I believe English is related to German. Which is where the barbarians who sacked Rome came from. Which is where they spoke Latin. See Luciana, it all makes sense now.Except it doesn't.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
The languages were probably chosen because those are the languages taught in US high schools. French, Spanish, German, Latin, and occasionally Russian.

Depends what part of the country you are in. My parts has a large Portuguese speaking community. So the high schools offer that language. Not many Russians, so no russian language classs.


What are the odds this jerk will join the army once he turns 18???

[Luciana]

Originally posted by LostAngeles
Also, I am quite sure that my friend who did take several years of Latin is now a translator.

Specific interest in languages, I see.

As far as helping Spanish? I've noticed that my knowledge of French helps when looking at Spanish writing since they're both Romance languages. And I've been able to tell a language being spoken was Italian since it was neither French, nor Spanish, but was similar to both and if I recollect correctly, there's only three Romance languages. (Which begs the question, what's Portugese?)

Spanish, French, Italian, Romenian and Portuguese are the main Romance languages spoken nowadays. There are also a few pidgins out there, and a couple of other languages in Spain I now forgot.

Let's say a German learns to speak Spanish. If he decides to learn Portuguese, the learning curve will be now considerably shorter. If this same German had learnt Latin, learning Portuguese would become easier too - but then he dedicated himself to a dead language, didn't he?

Also, the similarities are pretty much confined to vocabulary, therefore, learning Latin instead of any other live Romance language would probably be a disadvantage (though I can't prove that, it's just my impression).

I believe English is related to German. Which is where the barbarians who sacked Rome came from. Which is where they spoke Latin. See Luciana, it all makes sense now.[SIZE=1]Except it doesn't.

The most common a language is, the more mixed with others it will be (as opposed to geographically contained or presence of very few speakers). Therefore, it makes a little sense, yeah. :)

[hgc]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery
It would be a worse waste of time had you been forced to learn how to speak it. Because spoken Latin is... it doesn't even exist, considering that no one has been able to reach a consensus on its phonetic system (that is bound to have changed throughout the centuries anyway). What could be the possible use of speaking Latin for 99,99% of the population of the world??

If by learning Latin you mean learning the meaning of affixes and roots, then I sustain that is English that you're learning. I don't really care how it was actually pronounced, but without speaking, it was impossible to learn. I can appreciate that taking a living language would have been a better use of my time, but I didn't know that then.

[Luciana]

Originally posted by hgc
I don't really care how it was actually pronounced, but without speaking, it was impossible to learn.

:confused:

Of course it is possible to learn how to read in a language without ever learning how to speak it. There is a whole industry for it, and it is proven that it works, it is a respectable academic field. My own grandfather could read in 11 languages. He could only speak Portuguese, go figure.

You can also speak a language without ever learning how to write it. That is true for illiterates out there.

I can understand that some scholars would wish to learn to read in Latin. Actually, if you are to be very snob, make it Latin and Ancient Greek. But speak it?? There is no use whatsoever.

Lawyers learn a few phrases, nothing more. I myself, when I'm feeling a bit whimsical, parade my spoken Latin a little bit. Well, since I learned it, better use for something.

[LostAngeles]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery
Specific interest in languages, I see.



Spanish, French, Italian, Romenian and Portuguese are the main Romance languages spoken nowadays. There are also a few pidgins out there, and a couple of other languages in Spain I now forgot.

Let's say a German learns to speak Spanish. If he decides to learn Portuguese, the learning curve will be now considerably shorter. If this same German had learnt Latin, learning Portuguese would become easier too - but then he dedicated himself to a dead language, didn't he?

Also, the similarities are pretty much confined to vocabulary, therefore, learning Latin instead of any other live Romance language would probably be a disadvantage (though I can't prove that, it's just my impression).



The most common a language is, the more mixed with others it will be (as opposed to geographically contained or presence of very few speakers). Therefore, it makes a little sense, yeah. :)

Actually, his major was Evolutionary Biology and he minored in Astronomy and Japanese. He was/is big into science. Now he's teaching himself Swedish, so you're probably dead on.

I did make up that explanation on the fly so I was expecting it to be wrong. You just had to bring the sense into it. :D

Right, what was this thread about? Oh yes, idiot kid being offended by the Pledge in other languages. We should send him a gun-toting NASCAR Jesus plush. That should stop the crying.

[Luciana]

I'm thinking people study Latin just to

a) sound cultured,

b) be politically correct, and instead of choosing one Latin language and hurt feelings, choose one that won't offend anyone,

c) pretend to know a foreign language, without the fear of ever facing a native speaker...

d) did I mention sound really really cultured, even sophisticated?

Or, instead, they're just reading lists of affixes and roots and calling it "learning Latin".

[Rob Lister]

Originally posted by hgc at 07:00pm (my time)
If you'd like to explain how translating and reading the pledge is a waste of time and resources, I'd love to hear about it.

Originally posted by hgc at 07:28pm (my time)
I don't really care how it was actually pronounced, but without speaking, it was impossible to learn.

Still, it is amazing what one can learn in a tad less than a half-hour.

[Skeptic]

"When you're saying the Pledge in a different language which nobody understands, that's not OK." That patriotic sentiments mean nothing unless others see and understand you?

Well, yes, actually. Precisely.

The Pledge of Allegiance is a PLEDGE; a PUBLIC expression of your patriotism. To say it in a foreign language that others do not understands negates the whole purpose of the pledge.

It also shows lack of concern in the sense that, surely, if there is one statement in English that all emigrants should learn and know, it is the pledge of allegiance; it is the ceremonial expression of their most basic duty upon arriving in the new country.

But of course, it's only English-speaking Americans that are offended--and they might even be Christians--so who cares?

[Tmy]

This is so stupid. Reminds me of the old school catholics who think mass should only be heard in latin. As in the dead language.

[hgc]

Originally posted by Rob Lister
Still, it is amazing what one can learn in a tad less than a half-hour. I think you just insinuated that I contradicted myself. I most certainly did not. Please read again.

[kimiko]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery
I'm thinking people study Latin just to

a) sound cultured,

b) be politically correct, and instead of choosing one Latin language and hurt feelings, choose one that won't offend anyone,

c) pretend to know a foreign language, without the fear of ever facing a native speaker...

d) did I mention sound really really cultured, even sophisticated?

Or, instead, they're just reading lists of affixes and roots and calling it "learning Latin". I took Latin in high school. Given the impression others form of people from Texas, I hope our attempts to be mildly cultured will be forgiven. :p

We were learning it as a written language, on the assumption that it would trickle down into improved English vocab and grammar. I suspect my teacher was secretly hoping we'd become classics professors and archeologists. I went to a Catholic school and everyday we said either the Our Father or Hail Mary in Latin class, to appease the local priests I imagine. We memorized vocabulary and did translations. Part of the vocabulary requirement was to identify English words that were derived from the Latin. We had to take the National Latin Exam every year too, but I imagine it was just to pad our transcripts with an impressive sounding award when we scored well. My class had 4 people in it, so we goofed around all the time and played tricks on our teacher.

[kimiko]

Originally posted by Skeptic
"When you're saying the Pledge in a different language which nobody understands, that's not OK." That patriotic sentiments mean nothing unless others see and understand you?

Well, yes, actually. Precisely.

The Pledge of Allegiance is a PLEDGE; a PUBLIC expression of your patriotism. To say it in a foreign language that others do not understands negates the whole purpose of the pledge. Young people being compelled to make an oath daily renders it meaningless and only an exercise in conformity. It should be reserved for appropriate ceremonial occasions.

It also shows lack of concern in the sense that, surely, if there is one statement in English that all emigrants should learn and know, it is the pledge of allegiance; it is the ceremonial expression of their most basic duty upon arriving in the new country. Immigrants do learn the pledge in English if they declare their loyalty to the state and become citizens. Even in another language, if motivated by feelings of affection and loyalty to the country, it is patriotic by definition.

[Mason]

I had four years of Latin in HS...

The class was more than simply trying to learn to speak a different language. Being an unspoken and nearly useless language, the course instead makes a much more broad focus to include Roman history, civics, mythologies, literature, and actual Latin language skills. It was a very rich series of classes.

It was taught from an academic stance rather than from a practical one. Other classes taught in HS include US history, civics, US and European literature, and various classes on foreign cultures. The Latin series of classes are basically the same content, but focusing on ancient Rome (and Greece and a bit of Norse and Egypt) instead of modern cultures.

Also worth note is my own gain from the classes. My school career was a series of expulsions, suspensions and removal from normal classes. Latin was my only exposure to actual grammar of any sort beyond first grade level. That is, in ninth grade I entered Latin I with only the basic knowledge of what nouns and a verbs are, and no knowledge of sentance structure beyond that. My senior year, I had my first english grammar class, and I was well beyond the rest of the class who had been learning grammar for their entire school careers, simply because to learn Latin I had to learn grammar to a depth that HS english doesn't seem to cover.

So my own impression is that the class is valuable in so many ways that actually learning Latin is irrelavant... It compliments and enriches the whole high school curriculum. Perhaps this would be true for Spanish or Russian, but for me, Latin was the most valuable non-science class in my pre-college schooling.

[webfusion]

You think this is an issue? Just wait until all Ten Commandments displays are approved by the SCOTUS but the Justices, in a twist of irony, decide that only the original Hebrew texts of the Torah must be used (for Historical accuracy and in fairness not to be seen as promoting the Christian 'versions' in public displays). All schools, town halls, libraries and courts will need to have only Hebrew, not English, in their monumental tributes to the 10C's

Hebrew. The Official language of the Bible.
http://www.goldenscribe.com/10_torah.htm

Wow, that would be interesting.

[Skeptic]

Young people being compelled to make an oath daily renders it meaningless and only an exercise in conformity.

Most moral and ethical education is of this nature. As Aristotle already noted, the whole point of the moral education of the young is through constant repetition to install good habits. The belief that education only works if the young want to do it "in their hearts" is nonsense on stilts.

[billydkid]

Originally posted by Skeptic
Young people being compelled to make an oath daily renders it meaningless and only an exercise in conformity.

Most moral and ethical education is of this nature. As Aristotle already noted, the whole point of the moral education of the young is through constant repetition to install good habits. The belief that education only works if the young want to do it "in their hearts" is nonsense on stilts.

There is a fundamental distinction between learning what actually IS moral and being taught specifically that this and that and the other conceit is moral. The Nazis were very big on teaching their kids morality. They were big on taking pledges and oaths of allegiance and not determining for themselves the rightness or wrongness of things. I would much prefer that our children be taught to decipher for themselves what constitutes genuine morality instead of parroting back authoritarian state-speak.

You and I have very different understanding of what is supposed to make the USA, the USA and not just another political state. It is my opinion that those who shout loudest about patriotism and those who contrive pledges and vows for other people to take have the least understanding of what it means to live in the "land of the free" and the "home of the brave". Any society that insists on social and political conformity, that advocates pledges of loyalty and the signing of loyalty oaths is not a society that genuinely values liberty.

In my mind, the one thing that distinguishes America from almost every other nation - or at least I always thought of it this way - is that it is a nation made up of people who chose to be a nation, who choose to be Americans and who are bound together soley by that choice and not by such arbitrary criteria as ethnicity or religion or background. In general, we are all already Americans because we chose to be Americans and we do not need to justify our legitimacy to self appointed "uber-Americans" who contrive pledges for us to take in order to satisfy themselves that we are good enough Americans to suite them.

I believe pledges are anathema to a genuinely free society and in that respect I believe the pledge of allegiance is fundamentally un-American.

[LW]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
Linear B?

Or was that cracked already?

You are thinking of Linear A. Linear B uses the same script but is basically just really ancient Greek.

[Rob Lister]

Originally posted by billydkid
There is a fundamental distinction between learning what actually IS moral and being taught specifically that this and that and the other conceit is moral. ...

I like this thread and I'm trying to follow it but I fear that unless you define "moral" in subjective terms I will not be able to do so. So, help me out here, what "actually IS moral"? Hopefully, we will not have to figure out what the definition of IS is. After all, it's in caps.

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Rob Lister
I like this thread and I'm trying to follow it but I fear that unless you define "moral" in subjective terms I will not be able to do so. So, help me out here, what "actually IS moral"? Hopefully, we will not have to figure out what the definition of IS is. After all, it's in caps.

Wouldn't it be more useful to define "moral" in objective terms?

[drkitten]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery
Do people really teach Latin in US high schools? I'd really love to understand the rationale behind this, because, as a language teacher, and having studied Latin in college, I believe that Latin is of no interest for anyone not specifically interested in languages.


Yes. And for exactly the reason that you cite -- because there are people interested in languages and interested in Latin specifically.

Some of that derives from the religious impulse (the same sort of conservative Catholic that insists on hearing the Mass in Latin instead of the vernacular), some derives from an interest in matters historical. And some because there's a lingering prestige, the ghost of which still clings to archaic dead languages.

[Rob Lister]

Originally posted by Cleon
Wouldn't it be more useful to define "moral" in objective terms?

er...yes. Please forgive. I'm tempted to edit it but your edit will better suffice.

[Kilted_Canuck]

Well yesterday was March 21, the International Day for the Elimination of Racism, which may have had something to do with the "Foreign Languages Week" at that school.

I still don't understand American culture. Your patriotism seems akin to nothing more then assimilation. For someone to be a True American (tm), they need to get rid of their previous culture at risk of offending someone else. Here, I'm friends with two girls who immigrated to Canada from Ukraine. They were suprised to find that here there is a vibrant Ukrainian community, and an even bigger Multicultural community in Regina (which i'm a member of).

I guess these are two different ways of expressing patriotism. The American way (WARNING: Extreme Generalization Ahead!) by assimilation, being thankful for being American and expecting that all past and ancestry take a backseat role, or this way: Remembering and honoring past heritage while still being a proud citizen of the current country.

Another example is that in Canada there's a group called the Sons of Scotland, which all the old Scottish guys want me to join (I will when I'm older maybe ;) ), their motto is "Proudly Scottish, Happily Canadian". Its similar to many other large cultural groups that exist in Canada. I think the best way to eliminate hate, racism, and fear between groups is to understand each other. If more Americans (and Canadians for that matter) knew that the vast majority of Arab people were nice, smart, caring people with a diverse and interesting history, there wouldn't be nearly as much fear towards them.

I think this teen needs to learn and realize that many Americans arrived in the country only being able to speak one of the languages he's being exposed to.

[sackett]

That dopey little ***** and his equally dopey father (it's so sad when cousins marry) probably can't put two words together in any language but their own - scarcely that, to judge from the quotes -- and resent them there furriners who are a-talking lingo and should ought to go back where they comes from. Etc. Who cares what they think? A freak show always draws a crowd.

Funny thing about America: There are no foreign languages here. The U.S. does not have an official language. As long as I can raise my voice, it never will. Long live wild freedom!

So much for the OP. On to the fun part.

Really now, Luciana. Surely you don't think a knowledge of Latin is useless? (BTW, I never heard of a class that only teaches affixes.) I've met Latin-speakers - and yes, we can form a good idea of how Latin sounded ca. 100 AD. I know a man who attends Latin-speaking retreats; he even writes science fiction in Latin! (He insists that there's a future in it, so you see I can't vouch for his perfect sanity. But he has fun.) There is no such thing as useless knowledge.

There was once a president of Poland (I wish I could recall his name; anybody?) who said that when you learn a new language you live a new life. I hesitate to call that hyperbole.

Me? I've studied French, Finnish, Sioux, Basque, Latin, and Anglo-Saxon. I can't put two words of any of them together, but at least I don't make it a point of pride.

(I left out Northern Cheyenne because I only ever tackled the Petters' bilingual dictionary, and it's supposed to be full of errors.)

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by sackett
That dopey little ***** and his equally dopey father (it's so sad when cousins marry) probably can't put two words together in any language but their own

And not even then...

"This is America, and we got soldiers at war," said 15-year-old Patrick Linton.

[richardm]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery
But Latin is still unforgivable, imho.

Hmm. Does everything taught at school have to have a practical purpose? Is there nothing to be said for learning something for learning's sake? Simply because it's interesting?

[tedly]

Way to go sackett.

Back in my Army days I learned two things from my Gorf fellows. The first was that a man who has one language has no tongue(s) - When you say that in French it's a pun on about three levels.
The other was
One who speaks three languages is trilingual.
One who speaks two languages is bilingual.
One who speaks one language is a

- wait for it-

Moe-dzee ong-lay*

That , and of course, that one incomprehensible weekend in French Montreal is worth three years in English Toronto.


*(maldit anglais, but expressed with dripping contempt.)

[sackett]

We've heard that trilingual, bilingual, and an American joke mucho times. I last heard it from a comedian aboard a cruise ship, while sitting beside my American girl friend, who can handle French (well enough to be mistaken for a native speaker), German, Italian, Latin, and Classical Greek.

Many a little less dripping contempt would be okay. I grow weary of anti-American sanctimony.

[Skeptic]

That dopey little ***** and his equally dopey father (it's so sad when cousins marry) probably can't put two words together in any language but their own - scarcely that, to judge from the quotes -- and resent them there furriners who are a-talking lingo and should ought to go back where they comes from. Etc. Who cares what they think? A freak show always draws a crowd.

"That dopey little ***** of a negro and his equally dopey negro father (it's so sad when those savages marry inside the family) probably can't put two words together in any language but Ebonics -- scarcely that, to judge from their quotes -- and resent them whities who are a-talking lingo and should ought to stop putting the black man down. Etc. Who cares what they think? A freak show always draws a crowd."

Now, if I had SERIOUSLY said that, I would quite rightly be condemned as a vicious racist. But since we are only insulting those inferior people who live in America's heartland--and they might even be christians and vote Bush--then it doesn't matter. Carry on...

[tedly]

Originally posted by sackett
We've heard that trilingual, bilingual, and an American joke mucho times.
........
Many a little less dripping contempt would be okay. I grow weary of anti-American sanctimony.


No,no,no, nooooo.

A M A is never, ever an American. The Quebecois like the Americans. A moe-dzi ong-lay (also a tete carre - sorry I can't find the accents; tc is often shortened to bloke as in blockhead, pun on English intended) is always an English Canadian.
The antagonism, usually, is a 'me against my brother, me and my brother against my village' kind of struggle.

And you can only call a FCdn a Gorf, or pepsi if you are really, really friends, or don't mind having your head handed to you.

[sackett]

Originally posted by tedly
No,no,no, nooooo.

A M A is never, ever an American. The Quebecois like the Americans. A moe-dzi ong-lay (also a tete carre - sorry I can't find the accents; tc is often shortened to bloke as in blockhead, pun on English intended) is always an English Canadian.
The antagonism, usually, is a 'me against my brother, me and my brother against my village' kind of struggle.

And you can only call a FCdn a Gorf, or pepsi if you are really, really friends, or don't mind having your head handed to you.

Well Ed dang me for a needlessly touchy 'Merican.

Not that I mind anti-American slanging all that much; for the most part, the modern variety derives from American self-castigation during Nam. Many, many Americans will tamely nod and agree about How Awful We Are.

As for pepsi (never heard gorf; what's the derivation?), I know better than to use it unless I'm at loud bullhorn range. Them frenchies is mighty sudden men.

[sackett]

Originally posted by Skeptic
[B]. . . since we are only insulting those inferior people who live in America's heartland--and they might even be christians and vote Bush--then it doesn't matter. Carry on...
Well, I will. I reckon I can beat up on my own people if I see a need.

It may be true, as Marx maintained, that you never lose your class origins, but you can damn well repudiate them.

Although I don't recall impugning any particular class or region. We're not trying to cross a river; no need to jump from conclusion to conclusion.

[Luciana]

Originally posted by mason

The class was more than simply trying to learn to speak a different language. Being an unspoken and nearly useless language, the course instead makes a much more broad focus to include Roman history, civics, mythologies, literature, and actual Latin language skills. It was a very rich series of classes.

That sounds very interesting.

The information I was working on was that in US high schools children could be taught French, German, Spanish, Latin, etc. Of course I assumed that Latin meant Latin language. And then I questioned the validity of teaching Latin language to high school students.

What mason has described sounds very enlightening.

[Luciana]

Originally posted by sackett

Really now, Luciana. Surely you don't think a knowledge of Latin is useless?

I never said that. I said that I can't understand teaching Latin language for high schoolers. If, however, Latin is presented as mason has portrayed, then I can see its usefulness.

(BTW, I never heard of a class that only teaches affixes.) I've met Latin-speakers - and yes, we can form a good idea of how Latin sounded ca. 100 AD. I know a man who attends Latin-speaking retreats; he even writes science fiction in Latin! (He insists that there's a future in it, so you see I can't vouch for his perfect sanity. But he has fun.) There is no such thing as useless knowledge.

Very very very specific, don't you think? There is even Harry Potter in Latin. I commend learning Latin if that's your thing. You like it, sure, learn it, who am I to say you shouldn't. But why Latin to high schoolers and, not, say, Old English? Just leave it to college.

[Rob Lister]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery
That sounds very interesting.

The information I was working on was that in US high schools children could be taught French, German, Spanish, Latin, etc. Of course I assumed that Latin meant Latin language. And then I questioned the validity of teaching Latin language to high school students.

What mason has described sounds very enlightening.

Actually, the choices -- French, German, Spanish, Latin -- are usually on all course selection forms but generally all that's available is French and Spanish (where I live at least). The offer of the others is contingent not only upon enough students selecting it but upon talking a Phys-ed teacher* into teaching it. Needless to say, few schools offer German/Latin II or III. Few (around here) every actually teach anything surpassing Intro.

*Most 'Merican's will get the joke.

[tedly]

Dear sackett

Gorf is easy. spell it backwards. And my favourite Canadian joke is about the Montreal life guard who is hauled up for having sex with a woman who drowned on his beach. He was asked why he didn't save her.
'Because I can't swim.'

How can you be a lifeguard and not swim?

'Ah, but I'm bilingual.'

And did you not think it strange, while you were assaulting this woman, that she was still, silent, and cold?

'No, I thought she was English.'

[Whoracle]

If liberals would all just shut up we could have kids reciting the pledge, singing God Bless America and the National Anthem, reading the bible and staring at the 10 commandments in class like they are suppossed to. I can't think of anything else they should be doing with that time. Outside of showing their parents the conservative values they were raised with stuck by getting caught giving head in a bathroom stall during break.

[sackett]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery
. . . But why Latin to high schoolers and, not, say, Old English? Just leave it to college.

My first high school English Lit. class started out with Beowulf, including some passages in the original.* (When we got to Chaucer, we had to compose a short poem in Middle English. Not bad for a country school in the depths of Wyoming, eh?) I say start kids as early as possible, when their minds are still receptive. College? College is for partying, not studying!

* Hwaet! We Gar-dena in yeordagum theodkyninga thrym gefrunnen! Hutha athelingas ellen fremedon! Shall I go on? But it's a resounding old poem.

I hated Latin and did no good at it, although I think I could take it up again now and do better. It's not at all a dead language.

[Skeptic]

Well, I will. I reckon I can beat up on my own people if I see a need. It may be true, as Marx maintained, that you never lose your class origins, but you can damn well repudiate them.

Indeed so. And if we can only get a black person to admit what savages blacks are, how worthless and stupid and intermarrying they tend to be, etc., that would make such criticism perfectly OK. After all, you might not be able to escape your skin color, but you can damn well repudiate it.

[Ladewig]

sackett
That dopey little ***** and his equally dopey father (it's so sad when cousins marry) probably can't put two words together in any language but their own - scarcely that, to judge from the quotes -- and resent them there furriners who are a-talking lingo and should ought to go back where they comes from. Etc. Who cares what they think? A freak show always draws a crowd.

Originally posted by Skeptic
"That dopey little ***** of a negro and his equally dopey negro father (it's so sad when those savages marry inside the family) probably can't put two words together in any language but Ebonics -- scarcely that, to judge from their quotes -- and resent them whities who are a-talking lingo and should ought to stop putting the black man down. Etc. Who cares what they think? A freak show always draws a crowd."

Now, if I had SERIOUSLY said that, I would quite rightly be condemned as a vicious racist. But since we are only insulting those inferior people who live in America's heartland--and they might even be christians and vote Bush--then it doesn't matter. Carry on...

I am confused. Are you calling sackett and racist or are you saying that everyone who criticized this pinhead is a racist? Surely you see the difference between pointing out one individual said something stupid and claiming that all people of a particualr race are stupid? And most importantly, isn't the claim of racism a bit far reaching given that we do not know the race of the speaker and his father?

[sackett]

I believe that Skeptic (who likes a quarrel better than a hot dinner) objects to my use of country dialect to lampoon uncouth people. The connection to racism is a bit tenuous, unless you see rural American white proletarians -- my folk! my kin! -- as a minority who are picked on too much. But in an 85% white country, I don't think that's a sound position.

No people ever sinks so low as to be beneath criticism. I think that if we're going to criticize others, and you know we will, then a first requirement is to be clear-eyed about our own way of life.

I'll continue to use dialect as a comic device, and a lot of people -- including my own people -- will continue to laugh at it.

[Luciana]

Originally posted by sackett
I hated Latin and did no good at it, although I think I could take it up again now and do better. It's not at all a dead language.

Latin is dead. A language with no native speakers is a dead language.

Latin culture isn't dead, as it lives on in western societies.

I remembered it last night - in our Literature courses, by the time we were 12 or 13, we learned about Latin and Greek literature and theater, some philosophy. But we don't call it, pretentiously, "Latin" or "Greek" classes, just like reading Beowulf in the original isn't a "Old English" class.

[Beanbag]

If English was good enough for Jesus Christ, it's good enough for the Pledge of Allegiance. :D

Regards;
Beanbag

[sackett]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery
Latin is dead. A language with no native speakers is a dead language.

Latin culture isn't dead, as it lives on in western societies.

I remembered it last night - in our Literature courses, by the time we were 12 or 13, we learned about Latin and Greek literature and theater, some philosophy. But we don't call it, pretentiously, "Latin" or "Greek" classes, just like reading Beowulf in the original isn't a "Old English" class.

A language with no speakers of any kind can be called dead. But Latin is still spoken -- by a few hobbyists and assorted weirdos. Even if it were not, it's still in use: Latin scholarship thrives in a mild, donnish way, and historians of the antique West have to be able to read it. That's why I say that Latin is not dead yet. (You could also argue that Latin simply split and changed to become the Romance languages we're all familiar with, and in that sense never died at all, but I think that's a slightly contrary way to look at it.)

Latin cultures of today descend from Romance culture, true. But I think that Roman culture is as dead as a coffin-nail, and good riddance.

Nobody's trying to act pretentious. I didn't take up the formal study of Anglo-Saxon until college; I doubt there's a high school on earth that offers it.

You'll have to remind me what we're arguing about

[drkitten]

Originally posted by sackett
A language with no speakers of any kind can be called dead.

The usual meaning of a language being dead is when there is no longer a community of native speakers, meaning speakers who learned it as children, as a first language.

By this definition, Latin is indeed dead, and long-dead.

[Cleon]

Latin's dead in a way; there are no native speakers. (Though I seem to recall reading a few years ago about a few isolated villages in Italy where Latin was still spoken natively. Could be mistaken, though.)

But Latin is still, I believe, the official language of the Vatican and used by RCC leaders in official capacities.

As for why it's being taught in secular schools, well, I think it's a holdover. Up until about 100 years ago, Latin was commonly studied as part of the study of classical literature. I think some schools still offer it as sort of an "old habits die hard" sort of situation. I don't think there are many public schools out there thinking, "Gee, let's start a Latin program!"

[drkitten]

Originally posted by Cleon
Latin's dead in a way; there are no native speakers. (Though I seem to recall reading a few years ago about a few isolated villages in Italy where Latin was still spoken natively. Could be mistaken, though.)


Well, what you describe is unlikely to the point of impossible. Languages change over time, and Italian is, in fact, what you get when people speak Latin very badly for fifteen hundred years. (So, for that matter, is French, Spanish, Romanian, and Raeto Romansch. The last of which is probably as close as you would get to "an isolated village where Latin is still spoken natively.")

[Cleon]

Originally posted by new drkitten
Well, what you describe is unlikely to the point of impossible. Languages change over time, and Italian is, in fact, what you get when people speak Latin very badly for fifteen hundred years. (So, for that matter, is French, Spanish, Romanian, and Raeto Romansch. The last of which is probably as close as you would get to "an isolated village where Latin is still spoken natively.")

True enough, but Aramaic is still spoken in some areas of Israel, Palestine, and Lebanon. Granted, it's changed over the past 2000 years, but it's still Aramaic, and not Arabic, Hebrew, or the multitude of other similar/derivative languages.

[sackett]

Luciana, you are absolutely correct in all particulars. I am grateful to you for sharing your learning and wisdom. Ah! Beauty and intelligence! How could any man resist such a combination!

That is a most charming ensemble, I might add. Rio girls know how to dress!

I am a newcomer to your delightful city. Perhaps you can suggest a few places I might wish to visit? But where are my manners! Please, won't you join me for a coffee? And I'll ask the waiter to bring some fresh flowers.

[fishbob]

Originally posted by kimiko
I think it's interesting he considers speaking english to be especially patriotic as we don't have an official language.

It's also interesting what he seems to be implying here: "When you're saying the Pledge in a different language which nobody understands, that's not OK." That patriotic sentiments mean nothing unless others see and understand you? If he ever returns to school, someone should explain that patriotism is emotional, not physical. I think it is all a plot by the 'ignernt and damn proud of it' crowd to avoid having to learn something new.