Why does God punish poor people

[Doomdude]

Just heard of another earthquake in the asia area and yet again more fatalites. If there is a god, why the hell is allways the poor countrys that suffer from natural disasters. Places like Bangledesh:floods,Iran:earthquake south america: mud slides, plus the tsunami in the asian area

How do people who belive in god come to terms with these disasters, what would be gods reason for killing all these people and if it is all powerfull,why not stop them from happening.

[Janice]

I really can't answer that one Doomdude, I just hope that all the other countries keep on donating and helping these poor people, and that they do not have to suffer any more loses. It will take them years to rebuild there lives, its hearbreaking to watch them on the news, especially the children who have been orphaned, and have lost all their family and homes. I do believe in the afterlife, but these events that keep happening are really starting to make me question if there really is a God, as you rightly say - why are there so many people suffering?

[Garrette]

Originally posted by Janice;

but these events that keep happening are really starting to make me question if there really is a God, as you rightly say - why are there so many people suffering?

Questioning is always good so long as you are willing to accept the answers as well as accept when we don't have the answers.

Your faith my be strengthened or destroyed.

In either event, question away. Good on ya.

[WhiteLion]

Quite an important question I believe.

Though many define God as nature, or reality.
Why does reality punish us? Why does nature punish us? Why does God punish us?
Is nature, God, reality punishing us?

Earth is indeed in movement, there is friction, there are people residing where there is friction, there are disasters as a result.
Why?
If we die by old age, is it God punishing us with a limited physical lifespan? Is it nature punishing us? Reality? Or is there simply no punishment?

If we die by our own toxic way of living such as cancerous habits in food, beverages or other stimuly such as cigarettes, is it we ourselves who are punishin us, nature punishing us, reality punishin us...? Or?

Is the goodness of nature, God, reality defined by how many of us reach the age of ninety? eighty? seventyfive?
Is the authentic compassion of nature, God, reality defined by the number of people who survive until they do reach those ages?

What does nature, God, reality want, demand from us? Will we be punished if we don't give a rats as? Is there punishment?

Do we define our lifes, our time, our nature/god/reality by how we died... or how we lived? Are we punished because of the formentioned factors? Is there punishment?

[B.S]

Originally posted by Doomdude
why the hell is allways the poor countrys that suffer from natural disasters
Are you serious? What about the disasters in the USA recently? Hurricanes, floods, landslides, forest and brush fires, .. don't these count? Japan has had devastating earthquakes, and they aren't poor. I think you need to look around a bit more.

[patnray]

I think this is somewhat like asking why tornadoes are attracted to trailer parks. They are not, of course, but the destruction is always worse at trailer parks in their paths because trailers are not as sturdy as stationary buildings.

Poor people are more likely to live in less desirable areas subject to mudslides or flooding (or lacking any projects to stabilize the land). They tend to be crowded together in flimsy dwellings unable to withstand even moderate shaking. And news reports don't show sparsely settled rich enclaves with little damage.

Now, there are many and complex reasons for poverty. Usually there is a priveledged class that restricts access to markets and jobs. There is often corruption. And the rich usually donate heavily to the local churches to assure that religious leaders turn a blind eye and council the masses to accept their lot rather than overturning the conditions that assure their continued poverty.

Thus the blame is not on "god" for creating the natural events, but on religion for helping perpetuate the conditions that assure mass suffering when the inevitable happens...

[Doomdude]

How many people died in the USA caused by the floods etc, I expect more people were killed on the roads then in those floods.The death rate in 3rd world countrys is allways a magnitude greater then similar events in the developed world.
anyway, what I am trying to get at is anyone who belives in a god, how do you explain these events, where does god fit in here, why do people pray when its obvious that no one is listening.

[Starrman]

White Lion,

The only option for me is that it is not punishment at all, but just being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and being ill-prepared for such an event due to the economics of their place on earth.

It really only makes sense to me if you take the idea of god or a motivated nature out of it.

And personally, I'm more comfortable with an unmotivated nature that science can help understand, than trying to figure out which religion I should follow to try and avoid getting a boulder dropped on my head.

You posed a lot of questions - what do you think?

(edited to make it clear who I was talking to)

[Janice]

Originally posted by B.S
Are you serious? What about the disasters in the USA recently? Hurricanes, floods, landslides, forest and brush fires, .. don't these count? Japan has had devastating earthquakes, and they aren't poor. I think you need to look around a bit more.

A lot of countries have suffered natural disasters, but some have suffered a lot more than others. With the recent Tsunami events only in December, and the huge trail of destruction this left and loss of life, to be struck with yet another earthquake not even three months later seems so pointless. It is not giving these countries any time to pick up the pieces and try to rebuild there lives. The US is a wealthy country, and has far more resources to be able to deal with natural disasters, whereas other countries, like Ethiopia have always suffered, and never seem to have a starting head to deal with the natural disasters, which cause such terrible suffering for these people.

Any loss of life through natural disaster is devastating wherever it takes place, but the point of this thread is to highlight why some countries have suffered continuously, and to such a large extent.

[Doomdude]

I use the term punish because those that believe in god think that through prayer they can change events, that god may listen to there prayers and answer them by changing an event such as a volcano erupting. The locals on seeing the smoke and flame pray to god to help them and hope it will not erupt. So when it does erupt how is that seen, gods will, what the hell is that, or is it seen as punishment for some sin they have comitted in the past. I am afraid I just can't get my head round that. Perhaps someone who believes can enlighten me.

[patnray]

Originally posted by Doomdude
The locals on seeing the smoke and flame pray to god to help them and hope it will not erupt. So when it does erupt how is that seen, gods will, what the hell is that, or is it seen as punishment for some sin they have comitted in the past. I am afraid I just can't get my head round that. Perhaps someone who believes can enlighten me.
They are encouraged to blame god, typically for punishing them for their sins or the sins of their parents (original sin) or neighbors. They are encouraged to focus solely on the event itself even though it is natural and inevitable. Thus they are discouraged from questioning the conditions that force them to crowd together in unstable areas in flimsy dwellings. Whether you see the events as natural or driven by "god", it is humanity that creates the conditions for maximum suffering. Those who's wealth and priveledge derive from the poverty and suffering of the masses will not have criticism directed at them and encourage the focus on "god's will".

Floods and earthquakes cause damage all over the world, as has been pointed out above. But the damage and suffering is worse in poor areas. The rich can live in safer areas, build stronger dwellings, and buy insurance...

[B.S]

It may seem like the poorer countries you mentioned are suffering disasters continuously but that could be an illusion brought about because they are poor. In the USA or other rich countries, they can recover quickly between disasters and have less damage done because of better living conditions, as mentioned by Patnray, above. But they still have the problems I mentioned every year, regularly. In the poorer countries they tend to blend together because they don't recover well in between. Some of the disasters they suffer (such as some famines) might not be natural but caused by their lack of education and poor leadership. "Natural" disasters do not favor the poor, they just suffer more with them.
A better question might be why they are poor in the first place, and why their gods let them suffer without the benefits of a decent life.
But I agree it makes no sense to pray to a god that isn't helping you. Its just a waste of time.

[WhiteLion]

Starrman,

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. Though if there is a God or motivated nature behind it then as I can grasp it, it is still automatic and quite systemized natural processes which depending on where people lives have harsh and terrible physical consequences.

And personally, I'm more comfortable with an unmotivated nature that science can help understand, than trying to figure out which religion I should follow to try and avoid getting a boulder dropped on my head.

Well I believe in karma :) Not in an obligation to believe a certain set of ideas to avoid boulders per se.
I don't believe in God being a personality up in the skye, pulling strings.

When I said motivated nature perhaps I should have said a heavily automatic universe with a consciousness?
I'm a bit tired so I won't make this too longwinded.

An earth that has its processes, its own purpouse, sensitive to effect from human symbiosis or lack thereof.

For instance, if we choose to live in the desert, it is not a punishment that there is no water for us to survive. Just a general example.
Do you see? Man makes much in nature about him.
If there is a flood in a place where no one lives, then who blaims God? If it happens where people have chosen to live, then there is blaim from left to right, do you see.

Both of the examples of floods above happen because an automized yet very living process, without excluding the concept of God, which isn't directed at us, we do not have to take it personally, even if a "supreme universal consciousness" does exist and is omnipotent.

From a cynical point of view then someone should be held responsible and pay for the crime, though it simply is not like that, with or without a "god".
Not the way spiritualism describes it.

Though as christianity and other religions does and often heard that it is about punishment.
Recently heard that the 2000 swedes that died in the tsunami died because they were from Sweden, the country of sodomism.

But as I believe, you Starrman do not have to believe in a concept of God if you do not want to, no one will punish you, you like the rest of us will just face the consequences of cause and effect which is a concept and much more that isn't dependant upon beliefs, its just common sense :)

Sleeptime, night!

[Doomdude]

Seeing as this is my first proper post I must say that I am impressed with the quality of response, most of the other forums I belong to would degrade this into a flame war in just a few posts. It's great that people can be objective in there reply and add to the debate.:)


this is just what i mean, the reply from WhiteLion, great stuff, keep it coming

Even if it is clap trap:)

[patnray]

Welcome to the forum!

[Harlequin]

Originally posted by WhiteLion
Recently heard that the 2000 swedes that died in the tsunami died because they were from Sweden, the country of sodomism.

They what! So how many innocent babies were drowned or starved by god just so he could get those 2000 swedes?

I'm so pissed off. I hate Sweden. Perverts.

Why couldn't god just crash their plane when they were flying there? I have to say that god seems very innefficient. Surely he could find a better way to smite those nasty swedemites without so much collateral damage?

I'm so pissed off. I hate god. Pervert.

[gnome]

incidentally, how many here have read "Star" by Arthur C. Clarke?

[Doomdude]

I have read a lot of his books but a long time ago, not sure if I read that one, refresh my memory.
Yes I have read it, did a google search and it jogged my memory, great author.

[Starrman]

If there is a flood in a place where no one lives, then who blaims God? If it happens where people have chosen to live, then there is blaim from left to right, do you see.

This is very true - you and I do see eye to eye on this point. As a society we often are guilty of punishing based on a result, rather than a level of negligence.

If you leave your parking brake off parked on a hill, and your car rolls away, hitting a tree and denting your trunk - no one cares.

If you do the same thing, but your car hits and kills a child playing hopscotch at the bottom of the hill, your will probably be hung (figuratively, of course).

Same exact level of negligence, different result - much like god flooding the desert in your example.

(By the way, I know I stole that example from somewhere, I can't remember where so if it is from someone here or if someone knows where it came from let me know so I can reference it properly).

But as I believe, you Starrman do not have to believe in a concept of God if you do not want to, no one will punish you

You may want to check with 1inChrist about that one - he would probably condemn me to not just one punishment, but eternal punishment for my lack of faith. ;)

[LostAngeles]

Originally posted by Doomdude
Just heard of another earthquake in the asia area and yet again more fatalites. If there is a god, why the hell is allways the poor countrys that suffer from natural disasters. Places like Bangledesh:floods,Iran:earthquake south america: mud slides, plus the tsunami in the asian area

How do people who belive in god come to terms with these disasters, what would be gods reason for killing all these people and if it is all powerfull,why not stop them from happening.

a)"It's testing, not punishment."

b)Because they don't give enough in the church plate.

c)Because they tend to live in areas that are prone to natural disasters with poorly constructed housing because they're poor.

[WhiteLion]

You may want to check with 1inChrist about that one - he would probably condemn me to not just one punishment, but eternal punishment for my lack of faith.

I don't know who 1inChrist is but the name perhaps gives it a way in a theistic sense.
That's the interesting part with disagreeing with a christian, they don't think that you are merely wrong, they think your evil.
And they don't think you will merely be punished, you will be eternaly punished.

Bummer it sounds like :)

[Placebo]

One answer that I've heard is quite simple, yet involved:

The characters in Genesis questioned the state of things. One of those questions was essentially the statement that humans can choose are capable of ruling themselves and chosing their own right and wrong.
As such, humans were given the chance to show whether they can indeed take care of themselves.
Resulting in the present situation where we are playing out the answer by our actions as a species. God and Satan are not allowed to directly tamper with proceedings. Although apparently they tamper indirectly all the same.

Dunno if I did it justice, but there we are. There were one or two other questions asked by the events in Genesis too, apparently.

PS: I'm not claiming belief or disbelief in this theory. Just putting it out here in the open.

[vbloke]

the asian earthquakes and tsunami are going to look like minor inconveniences when the caldera at Yellowstone Park eventually decides to erupt.
According to vulcanologists, depending on the amount of eruptable magma in the chamber, it could kill millions (in the richest country on Earth).
I'm not saying it'll erupt anytime soon, it could go anytime between now and around 10,000 years into the future, but when it does go, I hope the religious can come up with a valid reason why a country that at the moment appears to be heading into a christian frenzy is going to be severely "punished".

Or maybe it's just because the earths' surface is unstable in certain areas and with the current overpopulation of the human race, people have to live in dangerous areas.

[Blondin]

Or maybe the universe is "neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent" (Carl Sagan).

[Throg]

Originally posted by Placebo
The characters in Genesis questioned the state of things. One of those questions was essentially the statement that humans can choose are capable of ruling themselves and chosing their own right and wrong.
As such, humans were given the chance to show whether they can indeed take care of themselves.
Resulting in the present situation where we are playing out the answer by our actions as a species. God and Satan are not allowed to directly tamper with proceedings

God and Satan did continue to directly tamper with proceeding in books of the Bible subsequent ot Genesis. Job springs immediately to mind.

[entropy]

I seem to recall, after the tsunami, a Muslim preacher claiming that the Christian holiday was the cause. (Alas, I can't find the link.) Now here is another earthquake, on Easter Monday, no less.

[voidx]

As mentioned this basically hinges on one key factor. That there is intent and purpose behind any natural occurance. When we realize there is not, then it seems a rather silly conversation.

As usual God doesn't add anything to the process. Merely this subjective idea of intent and purpose. So why do we continue to posit him at all? Because the idea appeals to many people, and they want too.

The very fact that so many have a tendancy to allocate responsibility of horrendous natural disasters to God perhaps suggests that he needs a better PR department :).

[patnray]

There is another way to look at it. Because there are so many more poor people than rich people, on average more poor people will suffer during disasters.

[Soapy Sam]

As the same Arthur C Clarke gnome mentions has pointed out, when humanity has expanded across most of the usable land on Earth, almost any natural disaster will happen in a population centre.

Rich areas will still recover faster and have lower loss of life to start with, in some cases:- A hurricane in Florida typically causes many million dollars in damage and kills a few score of people. A typhoon in Bengal kills tens of thousands, because the people either get no warning or have no way to get out of the danger zone anyway. But those numbers are falling.

In some cases, good communications will not help; the next sizeable asteroid to hit Europe or America will not give enough warning for people to escape.
Plot a map of Barringer crater on central London for example. (This ignores the possibility of someone deliberately setting off a radioactive dirty bomb there).

Eruption at Yellowstone or Mammoth would devastate the U.S. and therefore global economies. Millions would probably starve and the resulting recession might last decades.
Bird flu could do a serious number on global population in the near future- again the better off areas might suffer less, but probably not much less.

Wish I hadn't started this. I think I'll go to bed and pull the covers over my head.

[Doomdude]

"Or maybe the universe is "neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent" (Carl Sagan)."
couldn't agree more.

The reason I started this thread was to get the opinion of people who belive in god to say why these things happen, in there eyes what is the reason that god lets it happen, how can they belive in a god who must have the power to stop these events from happening but doesn't. what exactly is it that there god does do, after all, millions pray to there god every day, why I might ask, he, it or she aint listening.

[Sharon]

How do people who belive in god come to terms with these disasters, what would be gods reason for killing all these people and if it is all powerfull,why not stop them from happening.

I get confused with this myself. I got the impression over the last few years that those who believe in god no-longer think of it as a white bearded man in the sky. I know lots of the New-age group call it energy and stuff. Yet if it's no longer a man I don't get why they give a non human actual human feelings, like caring enough to stop stuff happening. It really confuses me. I should wonder why they even think god cares as I can only assosiate caring , feeling emotions, with humans and my pet dogs ;)

Sharon

[Placebo]

Originally posted by Throg
God and Satan did continue to directly tamper with proceeding in books of the Bible subsequent ot Genesis. Job springs immediately to mind.
Fair point. I think they believe that the direct tampering stopped shortly after Jesus' death.
No idea why... I'll find out :D

[EHocking]

Originally posted by Sharon
I get confused with this myself. I got the impression over the last few years that those who believe in god no-longer think of it as a white bearded man in the sky. I know lots of the New-age group call it energy and stuff. Yet if it's no longer a man I don't get why they give a non human actual human feelings, like caring enough to stop stuff happening. It really confuses me. I should wonder why they even think god cares as I can only assosiate caring , feeling emotions, with humans and my pet dogs ;)

Sharon Everyone here has made the mistake of viewing this from a western perspective. With regard to the people affected by the recent earthquakes and tsunami - Bangladesh and Indonesia are 83% and 88% muslim, respectively.

Views based on the beliefs of the followers of the christian god are irrelevant when it comes to discussions of prayer and punishment in this case, surely?

[Doomdude]

Do muslims not belive in a god then, I dont distinguish between different religions , they all belive in some form of supernatural being, or an afterlife or spirit world. After all, who is it they pray to.

[max]

If there is God I expect he'd be looking after the soul and not the flesh. yer gets born and yer takes yer chances. He also, would not be bothering him/herself as to whether we wear hats,shoes or clothes at all. That's why it makes me roar with laughter at all this so called religious clothing.

[EHocking]

Originally posted by entropy
I seem to recall, after the tsunami, a Muslim preacher claiming that the Christian holiday was the cause. (Alas, I can't find the link.) Now here is another earthquake, on Easter Monday, no less. Sheik Ibrahim Mudeiris (http://www.barnabasfund.org/News/Archive/News%20Archive/News-20050107.htm)I believe may be the one you're looking for?

[EHocking]

Originally posted by Doomdude
Do muslims not belive in a god then, I dont distinguish between different religions , they all belive in some form of supernatural being, or an afterlife or spirit world. After all, who is it they pray to. The capitalisation of god and other's references to Christ gives an overwhelming impression that the Islam demographic of the region was being ignored by the rest of the forum.

I *was* going to reply with a smart arsed "proof" that these disasters and the basic tenet of the major religions in the area to show that the Christian god must be the one true god, but considering the extent of the tragedy I can't bring myself to bandy about such numbers just to poke fun at religion.

[Loki]

EHocking,

Views based on the beliefs of the followers of the christian god are irrelevant when it comes to discussions of prayer and punishment in this case, surely?
I've seen several christian sources offer the explanation that the tsunami struck asia precisely because it is predominantly Muslim. By devestating the area in such a dramatic fashion, god has opened the door to christian evangelists (via global charities) into an area they would have have very little hope of access to before. As well as bringing relief, they can (and should) bring the gospel. Thus god smoothes the way for the spread of his word.

Seems a rather heavy handed approach by god, but then he's not well known for being overly subtle (killing the first born of all Egyptians, including prisoners and cattle, just to teach Pharaoh a lesson - which he didn't listen to anyway - springs to mind)

[EHocking]

Originally posted by Loki
EHocking,


I've seen several christian sources offer the explanation that the tsunami struck asia precisely because it is predominantly Muslim. By devestating the area in such a dramatic fashion, god has opened the door to christian evangelists (via global charities) into an area they would have have very little hope of access to before. As well as bringing relief, they can (and should) bring the gospel. Thus god smoothes the way for the spread of his word.

Seems a rather heavy handed approach by god, but then he's not well known for being overly subtle (killing the first born of all Egyptians, including prisoners and cattle, just to teach Pharaoh a lesson - which he didn't listen to anyway - springs to mind) Did you follow this link? (http://www.barnabasfund.org/News/Archive/News%20Archive/News-20050107.htm) . That's the one where Allah is punishing them for allowing the Christians in.

Looks like they've covered a god's heavy hand coming and going.

[Azrael 5]

Edmund BlackadderGod is very quick these days... ;)

A Tsunami and an eathquake within 3 month,what a sh*t life these people must be having right now.
It is rather coincidental that they occured after Christian holidays though.If I were a woo.....;)

edited to change tone.

[WhiteLion]

Sharon, I perhaps I can't speak from new-age terms as so since it is a very vast term with quite a few different beliefs in its "grasp", still as I've said before as far as spiritualism goes generally with "God" that billions of people think of God as being the Power of Love alone, but in fact 'He' expresses 'Himself' through the three mighty forces of Creation, Preservation and Transformation (or Destruction). He is a Living and Evolving Spirit whose personality is perhaps most evident in Nature, where life-forms are continuously 'created' then 'destroyed' (sometimes by cataclysmic forces) only to be later re-formed into 'new' creations.
God is constantly re-cycling Himself. For example:
Every moment, somewhere in our universe huge dust-clouds and star debris from exploding supernovas are propelled into space where they join with other material to form vast clouds of matter; these formations later collapse inwards toward their centre of gravity - and a new star is 'born'.

[Dr Adequate]

WhiteLion, when I see your posts, I always think: so near, and yet so far. You righly post in your sig: "I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud." -- Carl Jung.

Set against that, if you will, a quotation from another great thinker of our time: "I shall not commit the perennial stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as the intervention of some unseen being with a personality sufficiently capricious that no-one can predict its actions." -- Dr Adequate.

I stand in awe of nature. You attribute some majestic but utterly inhuman personality to it. As if "inhuman personality" meant anything. I am right and you are wrong.

[Janice]

Originally posted by Loki
EHocking,


I've seen several christian sources offer the explanation that the tsunami struck asia precisely because it is predominantly Muslim. By devestating the area in such a dramatic fashion, god has opened the door to christian evangelists (via global charities) into an area they would have have very little hope of access to before. As well as bringing relief, they can (and should) bring the gospel. Thus god smoothes the way for the spread of his word.

Seems a rather heavy handed approach by god, but then he's not well known for being overly subtle (killing the first born of all Egyptians, including prisoners and cattle, just to teach Pharaoh a lesson - which he didn't listen to anyway - springs to mind)

Hi Hocking - do you have any links to these reports - would be interesting to read.

Peoples religeous beliefs are their own affairs, and I do not agree with trying to convert people to follow any kind of religeous belief, or tell them what faith to follow. As we have seen over the years in many countries, it has led to wars and destruction. It is now even getting in the way of helping the Tsunami victims

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7535-2005Jan13.html

So what good is it if it causes so much destruction?

[EHocking]

Originally posted by Janice
Hi Hocking - do you have any links to these reports - would be interesting to read.You'll have to ask Loki for them, they are his quotes.

Peoples religeous beliefs are their own affairs, and I do not agree with trying to convert people to follow any kind of religeous belief, or tell them what faith to follow. As we have seen over the years in many countries, it has led to wars and destruction. It is now even getting in the way of helping the Tsunami victims

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7535-2005Jan13.html

So what good is it if it causes so much destruction? Frankly, the cynical exploitation being demonstrated by both factions in that article doesn't surprise me in the least. IT is an example of people behaving at their utterly worst. How disgusting is it to withold aid to a needy child just because their guardian's religion is not the same as yours.

[WhiteLion]

Dr.Adequate,
Set against that, if you will, a quotation from another great thinker of our time: "I shall not commit the perennial stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as the intervention of some unseen being with a personality sufficiently capricious that no-one can predict its actions." -- Dr Adequate.

Well as I read your posts I smile, not in a sarcastic sense but actually because it is a fresh wind of honesty that cuts through the semantic chase, this I appreciate even if it is a manner that is not in abundance within me as of yet.

I do not believe in a personality of an unseen God, though I believe in the reflections, of which I find coherence though different from a non-theistic belief, thought or reasoning.
A non-theistic belief in some ways starts and ends with the human physical condition/experience being the most important.
Which is as well so close yet so far. A philosophical difference.

I stand in awe of nature. You attribute some majestic but utterly inhuman personality to it. As if "inhuman personality" meant anything. I am right and you are wrong.

I do to, stand in awe of nature, I grew up close to the cities though very much within the woodlands of southern Sweden and I reason that human's are human, nature is nature, I believe nature is caring, this can of course be seen as a projection, a reflection from my own mind, it doesn't matter to me.
I'm not the one with the blame for anyone.
Still I understand your manner of thought, it is a physical reasoning, as the logic ends at the roof of what one can see and touch. Perhaps it should end there, I do not know, I simply do not believe so, do you understand?
I do not believe however in a theistic concept of a puppeteer pulling strings.

[Sharon]

Hi Whitelion.

I perhaps I can't speak from new-age terms as so since it is a very vast term with quite a few different beliefs in its "grasp",

I was in the New Age community and even I could not understand or grasp what they meant when they spoke of god so I agree it is a very vast term with, to me, total controdictions within itself.

as spiritualism goes generally with "God" that billions of people think of God as being the Power of Love alone, but in fact 'He' expresses 'Himself' through the three mighty forces of Creation, Preservation and Transformation (or Destruction). He is a Living and Evolving Spirit whose personality is perhaps most evident in Nature, where life-forms are continuously 'created' then 'destroyed' (sometimes by cataclysmic forces) only to be later re-formed into 'new' creations.

That still sounds like a humantraits to me. The words 'He' and 'himself' automatically bring to mind my childhood vision of god, Grizzly Addams (7, cat died, mum said it's ok he's with god, thought oh yes, bet he's like Grizzly Addams) .


I suppose my problem is there are that many diferent faiths, different feelings people have of what god is, try as I might I just don't get it, it's not that I don't understand why people have 'faith' I just don't understand what their faith is in. I feel nothing, no connection, yet not-unlike yourself when you said to Dr A

the logic ends at the roof of what one can see and touch. Perhaps it should end there, I do not know, I simply do not believe so, do you understand?

I do sometimes get moments like this. I have a view to die for from my home. Miles of countryside as far as the eye can see. I often stand on my front lawn looking and am amazed at the beauty and feel so damm lucky that I am part of it, can see it, can wonder at it. I do get a feeling of such happiness/joy that I want to thank someone for it as I feel so grateful. But at the same time my heart does sink as I don't feel there is anything/one there to thank (god)

[WhiteLion]

Yes Sharon I do understand and can relate to your experience.

I do sometimes get moments like this. I have a view to die for from my home. Miles of countryside as far as the eye can see. I often stand on my front lawn looking and am amazed at the beauty and feel so damm lucky that I am part of it, can see it, can wonder at it. I do get a feeling of such happiness/joy that I want to thank someone for it as I feel so grateful. But at the same time my heart does sink as I don't feel there is anything/one there to thank (god)

Well if you have a desire to thank anyone you can thank yourself for having the ability to appreciate such things that perhaps many take for granted and do not notice or appreciate with an emotional experience.
I often escape from the busy pulse of the cities to my home in the forest. It does give me a sense of appreciation, peace and motivation for life. Also a great inspiration for when I am writing.
And I ask myself sometimes, what is more true, the calming sound of the creek flowing by without a concept of time or the smoogy smoke from the industrial chimneys?
Am I escaping from reality when I sit there on my meadow, writing along with the song from the willows, or have I finally found some reality in this world of illusions?

:) It's always breathtaking to just be in nature.

[Soapy Sam]

If an entity did exist capable of creating this universe and everything in it, the word "alien" would not suffice to describe the strangeness of it.

To anthropomorphise it, even down to gender, tells us much about humans and nothing at all about- it.

Let's face it. We know nothing at all about such a thing.

Zero.

We may believe what we like, but we know nothing.

[Francois Tremblay]

The idea that a good being, worthy of worship, created the latest tsunami, or the suffering and deformation of infants, is disgusting, offensive and abominable. But god-belief is, unfortunately, a widely-accepted abomination. The Christians' vile behaviour and propaganda in the "Terri Schiavo" affair is, in my view, only confirmation of this.

[valis]

I would say the tsunami is just a means of natural selection.
It's survival of the fittest folks. If the same thing happened in say the U.S. the death toll would be much lower for a variety of reasons.

Rejoice in the beuty of the random universe getting rid of those who were not advanced enough to have warning systems, better housing etc.

In fact we should let them fend for themselves, sending aid only allows the week to live and pass on their genes.

[imagineNoReligion]

Why do any of us need to be punished? why do we even need the concept of original sin?

Why do we have to live this life and die with all the hurt and loss of loved ones, if our eternal bliss comes in the next life?

There is no point to it. Surely an all powerfull and loving God would just release us from it, free us from sin , and let as live in heaven to begin with. Or is he just pulling the legs from bugs!

If there was a heaven, and if there were a god, we wouldn't be here to discuss it.

[VeronicaX]

My catholic village would only say that it is either a TEST or a punishment from GOD and either that : we should be strong and pray even more and/or we should repent our sins and pray even more.

[VeronicaX]

Originally posted by imagineNoReligion
Why do any of us need to be punished? why do we even need the concept of original sin?

Why do we have to live this life and die with all the hurt and loss of loved ones, if our eternal bliss comes in the next life?

There is no point to it. Surely an all powerfull and loving God would just release us from it, free us from sin , and let as live in heaven to begin with. Or is he just pulling the legs from bugs!

If there was a heaven, and if there were a god, we wouldn't be here to discuss it.


wE Need to be punished coz we've all been very naughty...

Original sin is there becoz twopeople have been very naughty...
(If not for original sin,there wouldn't be in breds like us mind you)

Well, in order for eternal bliss you have to suffer first, otherwise it's all too easy for you, naughty!

God has already freed us through his son JESUS, but then we all started to do very naughty things again!

If we all lived in heaven to begin with, then we'll be called Angels, in my case - naughty cherubs.

If there was heaven and there were a god, john edwards would be struck by a lightning.

it's ALL A TEST ya know! now pray and ask GOD for forgiveness. :)

[imagineNoReligion]

Originally posted by VeronicaX
[
If there was heaven and there were a god, john edwards would be struck by a lightning.

it's ALL A TEST ya know! now pray and ask GOD for forgiveness. :) [/B]

Looks like we are in complete agreement. :)

[Francois Tremblay]

Originally posted by valis
I would say the tsunami is just a means of natural selection.

What a disgusting, ignorant statement. God killed all those people because he made them weaker, less adapted, than others ?

[VeronicaX]

Darwin's Natural selection? or God's natural selection?

darwin's natural selection has nothing to do with god, am i wrong?

I must say though that what valis posted:


Rejoice in the beuty of the random universe getting rid of those who were not advanced enough to have warning systems, better housing etc.

that sorts of upsets me coz I came from a third world country and it's not the people's fault that we do not have fourth world countries to exploit and take resources from for our own advantage and therefore, we are not "advanced enough" like first world countries.

If anything, maybe it's a process of unnatural selection... your talking about technology and gadgets which aren't part of our biology.

In fact we should let them fend for themselves, sending aid only allows the week to live and pass on their genes

isn't that a bit harsh? how about when you're in a car accident, noone should help you at all coz if your too weak to survive the accident, tough luck, you're genes aren't good enough.
i mean, your car gadget has airbags, right? and cruise control right? see in my planet that kind of technology is inferior, we have psychic teleport so no accident here!! We would like to help you human beings but... nah... let's leave it to natural selection.

Third world countries were fine as they were until the foreigners came to conquer and spread diseases and try to steal natural resources and enslave the people, they've been used and exhausted, how can you think like that when they are in need?