Insight appreciated

[Chocolate Chip]

This is about a deceased relative of mine that kind of threw me for a loop recently. A little background first. This relative believed in woo such as curses, superstitions, but was also a practicing catholic. She gave birth 17 times, although only 10 children survived. It may seem incredible to some, but remember that this woman was a staunch catholic, therefore, NO birth control as it is against the laws of the catholic church. She also believed in ghosts, as her and her children used to tell ghost stories about the haunted house they lived in. This wasn't just for laughs, these people actually believe that the house was haunted. This woman also used to believe in the "mal d'occhio" or the "evil eye" curse, and had a special prayer to ward it off. But I surmise her biggest belief would have been in god via the catholic church. She would attend services more than the usual once a week, the priest apparently was on a first name basis with her, I think it's safe to say that all her life, she believed in god... until just before she died about three years ago.

She knew she was dying and one of her daughters asked when she wanted to have the priest come in for her last confession, and to administer the last rites. This woman refused, stating that "There is no god, no heaven or hell. We just die and rot in the ground, I don't want a priest".
Apparently this wish was respected.

So why would someone who has held this belief in god all their life, suddenly do an about face, just before dying? Granted she did not have the easiest or most pleasant of lives. I don't think she was on any drugs or medication while dying. All I ask for if any of you have some insight or ideas as to why this happened. Perhaps a psychologist out there, but really, anybody that might be able to shed some more light.

If anyone should have any questions, please ask and I will do my best to get accurate responses. I know there's no "hard evidence" to go with, but this is all the first hand info I could get after hearing about this episode.

Thanks in advance.

[deBergerac]

It is hard to say why somebody would change their mind about something they have beleived in all their life just before death. Perhaps it is just the magnitude of the question, is there life after death or not, that makes people reconsider everything at the final moment.
I think history have a lot of people living very much in an un-godly way just to change their mind at the last minute so why should not some stern believers change their mind the very last minute.

[Luciana]

I had something very similar happening to a loved one.

Some people can't help but take matters personally. So when this person I mentioned reached the conclusion that God didn't exist, it wasn't because she had thought about the incongruencies or irratiionality of it. It was because "if God existed, He wouldn't let me go through this".

This conclusion wasn't reached overnight. It was the result of feeling fragile and helpless for many months, due to a health problem. Life was just falling part, and she couldn't understand it, as she thought she deserved more.

Near the end, she was an hardcore atheist.

[Patricio Elicer]

I just can speculate about it. I think most people hold religious beliefs for pious reasons, be it because those beliefs make them feel good before the unknown, because they bring significance to their lives, etc. But at the very core of their selves, they know that those are fanciful notions. When they are ill, they go see a medical doctor for advice; why don't they just pray to their loving and omnipotent god?. Seems they don't trust him much.

I have a MD friend who told me he was struck at how much some catholic priests fear death. Please save my life!! ... they yell at him when they are deadly ill. Seems they themselves are not so convinced of the existance of heaven....

[El Greco]

I've planted the seeds of atheism in several people who still behave as believers. But I know they've been looking at the world with a different eye ever since I discussed with them how unlikely God is. They continue to "believe" because of inertia, but a time will come when they will admit to themselves that they don't really believe in any God. Perhaps something similar happened with your relative. She knew the truth for a long time, but as she felt death approaching she realized she didn't have any more time to become honest with herself.

[WhiteLion]

As stated before we can only speculate the why's and how's.

The sense of betrayel is a powerful one, as is the sense of hope.
What comes forth in your dying hour I guess has more to do with your contemporary state of mind than the merit of what you have believed in your life.

You can either feel betrayed by God and thus refusing to continue this belief as a reflection of your emotions or you can feel hope in a continous life after death, also a reflection of your emotions.

Our beliefs are rarely the manner of "how" we face things in life, more often it is the manner of what beliefs we ascribe our "dealing" with life.

It's all a blue spot, we decide what interpretation to fill that blue spot.
For some blue means something good, for some something bad and it can all change in a heartbeat, literally.

[Placebo]

I'd have to agree that it's particularly hard to guess what caused her reaction.

One thought though: if she truly thought as a hardcore woo does, her decision would likely have been based on emotion and raw belief - not logic and reason.
Even more so if she were in pain or discomfort.

[Ashles]

Some people find themselves very peaceful and accepting at the point of death. They feel happy that their time has come and they are prepared.
But others don't. Some people are filled with anger, frustration and hate at the unfairness of death. Some lash out at their families, and some (I would have thought especially those who were quite strongly religious all their life) will blame God and direct their hatred towards Him. Denying him would be the ultimate act of rebellion at a time of the highest emotion possible.

Whether she actually became an atheist at the last moment, or whether she was just furious at her God, we will never know. But I can't imagine what kind of emotions would go through your head at such a time.
Anyone could find their lifelong beliefs overturned. Even a close call with death is enough to change some people's entire personalities.

[billydkid]

Originally posted by Chocolate Chip
This is about a deceased relative of mine that kind of threw me for a loop recently. A little background first. This relative believed in woo such as curses, superstitions, but was also a practicing catholic. She gave birth 17 times, although only 10 children survived. It may seem incredible to some, but remember that this woman was a staunch catholic, therefore, NO birth control as it is against the laws of the catholic church. She also believed in ghosts, as her and her children used to tell ghost stories about the haunted house they lived in. This wasn't just for laughs, these people actually believe that the house was haunted. This woman also used to believe in the "mal d'occhio" or the "evil eye" curse, and had a special prayer to ward it off. But I surmise her biggest belief would have been in god via the catholic church. She would attend services more than the usual once a week, the priest apparently was on a first name basis with her, I think it's safe to say that all her life, she believed in god... until just before she died about three years ago.

She knew she was dying and one of her daughters asked when she wanted to have the priest come in for her last confession, and to administer the last rites. This woman refused, stating that "There is no god, no heaven or hell. We just die and rot in the ground, I don't want a priest".
Apparently this wish was respected.

So why would someone who has held this belief in god all their life, suddenly do an about face, just before dying? Granted she did not have the easiest or most pleasant of lives. I don't think she was on any drugs or medication while dying. All I ask for if any of you have some insight or ideas as to why this happened. Perhaps a psychologist out there, but really, anybody that might be able to shed some more light.

If anyone should have any questions, please ask and I will do my best to get accurate responses. I know there's no "hard evidence" to go with, but this is all the first hand info I could get after hearing about this episode.

Thanks in advance.

Gosh, that is a pretty unusual anecdote. You hear lots of stories about people suddenly getting religion at the end, not very many about folks losing it. I say more power to her for having the balls to face reality head on and chuck the crutch.

[Soapy Sam]

CC- Perhaps she simply realised that for the first time in her life, it simply did not matter who she offended , so she felt free to say what she had actually thought, but kept to herself, for years?

[alfaniner]

One doesn't have to be close to death oneself to have this realization. Sometimes the effect of someone else dying (or many "someone elses"), or the betrayal of not some supernatural being but trusted and authoritative humans, is a real wake-up call for a person who a few years ago was on the other side of the fence.

Detailed elsewhere in my Losing My Religion (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49238&highlight=losing+my+religion) thread.

[Sharon]

Hi Chip

Others have covered what they think 'might' have happened of which I tend to agree.


Can I ask what effect this had on the rest of the family?
Has it made any of their beliefs change?
Has it rocked their faith?


Sharon

[Harlequin]

My question is, do they think she's burning in hell or does a lifetime of belief make up for a few final years of "doubt"?

You see, I think people will grant her some benefit from the rest of her life and say something like "God will understand she didn't really mean it." Just like a last-minute conversion somehow saves you.

It's almost as if they are desperate not to have nice people be sent to hell and so they bend the rules whichever way they want...

[Chocolate Chip]

First off, thank you all very much for your insights.
This threw me for a loop because like billydkid stated
You hear lots of stories about people suddenly getting religion at the end, not very many about folks losing it.
This has always been kind of my mindset in the past as well. I always thought that people turned to god before they died, not turned away. Like you hear death row inmates becoming religious.
Originally posted by SoapySam CC- Perhaps she simply realised that for the first time in her life, it simply did not matter who she offended , so she felt free to say what she had actually thought, but kept to herself, for years?
I think there may be something in this as she seemed to not want to offend "authority figures" in her life, such as husband, priest, etc., even at the expense of herself and her children.
Originally posted by Placebo One thought though: if she truly thought as a hardcore woo does, her decision would likely have been based on emotion and raw belief - not logic and reason.
I'm not sure how logical she was, but she could be very cunning. She could also be very emotional, especially when someone really rocked her boat. In her later years, if someone told her professional wrestling was fake, you'd be in for a good yelling match. It was one of the few enjoyments I think she got out of life, the wrestling, not the yelling.
Originally posted by Sharon Can I ask what effect this had on the rest of the family?Has it made any of their beliefs change?
Has it rocked their faith?
Hasn't had much effect on the family. I think some may have thought she was being overly bitter and knowing she was near the end they thought she may have thought she had wasted her life doing what other people wanted of her. Some treat it like a skeleton in the closet and are happy to keep it like that, they didn't want to talk about it at all. Some of them thought she was being childish and poo-pooed it, like it was nothing. The rest of the family hasn't changed as far as I can see. They all seem to hold the same beliefs as they did before. They have what I call a "convenient" belief in god. Whatever they do, good or bad, is OK by god, they find a way to justify it by playing the god card. Makes some of them feel better about themselves I think.
I think she actually did realize in the end that there is no god. No, not through logic, but by reflecting on her past and finally realising that all the bad and good things that happen are done by us, to us and each other. Why do I think this? Because I went through a very rough period in my life and any fleeting belief I had in a god dried up and blew away upon reflecting and considering how people actually treat each other. That was the awakening for me, and even though it may have been too late in life for her, she finally woke up too. Of course I could be projecting my sentiments into my perception of the incident, but I hope I'm not.
I have to thank you all again, you are a smart bunch of people. If I've missed anything, or you have more questions, please let me know, I'd be more than happy to try and answer them.

[Chimera]

Chocolate Chip wrote:
This is about a deceased relative of mine that kind of threw me for a loop recently....

My mother had an experience slightly similar to the one you described with your relative. My mother was raised Catholic by her mother (and horribly cruel nuns in an all-girl Catholic school).

My grandma died a few years back, and my mom started questioning her own faith. The reason was that she expected to be able to feel Grandma's spirit after her death, and she didn't. Grandma never communicated with her in any way, and if Grandma's spirit existed, of course she would make an attempt to communicate with her daughter. So my mother began doubting the existence of an afterlife/supreme being.

Anyway, I wonder if your relative had expectations about feelings of spirituality or unearthliness that she was disappointed about not getting.

Jen

[Kopji]

Depression is a real possibility. Some nice information here: http://home.blarg.net/~charlatn/Depression.html

Look at some of the symptoms and see if they sound familiar.
It is not uncommon for chemical changes to occur due to medications or other circumstances near death.

...it amazes me sometimes
...Here is this person who gave the church her whole life and they seem willing to just write her off without much effort to help the family through the grief issues that they surely are responsible for creating. Are they satisfied with letting family members think she might be going to hell?

[Chocolate Chip]

Originally posted by J-No
Grandma never communicated with her in any way, and if Grandma's spirit existed, of course she would make an attempt to communicate with her daughter. So my mother began doubting the existence of an afterlife/supreme being.
Anyway, I wonder if your relative had expectations about feelings of spirituality or unearthliness that she was disappointed about not getting.
Jen
She did at one point claim to get messages from her dead husband through dreams, but only a few times. Her husband and her died about nine years apart. So she got these "messages" almost nine years before her death. I don't know how much that reinforced her belief in an afterlife, but at the time she did still believe in god and heaven/hell. I've gotten the impression from some other relatives, that near the end, she just wanted to get it over with. My mother was there when she ripped out some iv tubes from her arm, this indicates to me she didn't want to go on much longer. I don't think she would have said what she said and done this if she had gotten any feelings of spirituality.
Originally posted by Kopji Depression is a real possibility. Some nice information here: http://home.blarg.net/~charlatn/Depression.html
Oh I think she was going through some form of depression throughout her life, but I'm not a psychiatrist, so I am guessing on this one. AFAIK, there were no painkillers or drugs except for sustenance, but I cannot rule out that possibility about drug induced skepticism.
The catholic church angle you brought up was a good one. I don't know what the church did or did not do for the family, but I will certainly try and find out. I would like to know. Most of the relatives I speak to don't think she's in hell, some of them figure she suffered enough on earth. I like to think she's finally at peace, even if it means non-existence on any plane of reality, whatever suffering she went through is over.

[Beady]

Originally posted by Chocolate Chip
Most of the relatives I speak to don't think she's in hell, some of them figure she suffered enough on earth.

If they're devout Catholics, they almost certainly believe she's in purgatory. I'd be willing to bet that they also believe that the most her renunciation did was add a couple of millenia to her time in pergatory, and that she'll still eventually get to Heaven. Hence, there's no reason for them to be shaken at her apparent loss of faith. Of course, she also, from what you said, died without extreme unction, or whatever it's called, but neither was she excommunicated.

Whatever, her relatives probably believe that she's not in heaven, yet, but is on her way.

[Dragonrock]

I've often found that the more fanatic the devotion, the more fragile the faith. As someones faith begins to crumble they may try to overcompensate in an attempt to make up for what they feel they are losing. Perhaps she never believed those things and as her belief in god faded she tried desperately to find something to hold on to. She may not have known anything outside of the catholic church so her fear of not having the one constant in her life left her grasping at straws. Once she realized that she would not be living much longer, either inside or outside of the church, she lost some of her fear and was able to say what she felt.

[Sharon]

Hi Chip

think she actually did realize in the end that there is no god. No, not through logic, but by reflecting on her past and finally realising that all the bad and good things that happen are done by us, to us and each other.

I can inderstand this.

Sharon

[Chocolate Chip]

Originally posted by Beady
If they're devout Catholics, they almost certainly believe she's in purgatory. I'd be willing to bet that they also believe that the most her renunciation did was add a couple of millenia to her time in pergatory, and that she'll still eventually get to Heaven. Hence, there's no reason for them to be shaken at her apparent loss of faith. Of course, she also, from what you said, died without extreme unction, or whatever it's called, but neither was she excommunicated.

Whatever, her relatives probably believe that she's not in heaven, yet, but is on her way.
I've known very staunch catholics, and I have to agree that they would think she'd be in purgatory, or limbo. Some also believe that if someone on earth prays hard enough for the soul of the deceased, the soul will be forgiven and get into heaven one day.
The deceased relative was a devout catholic, but her children are not staunch catholics, they are cardboard catholics. They show up for their kids' communion, baptism, christmas mass, a wedding or two. That's about it. No regular sunday attendance or bible school for the kids. Some have mentioned they think she's in heaven. Let's face it, unless you've had an extreme bitch for a mother, or are strenuously religious, who would want to entertain the thought that mom was burning in hell? Not alot of people I think.

[Chocolate Chip]

Originally posted by Dragonrock
I've often found that the more fanatic the devotion, the more fragile the faith. As someones faith begins to crumble they may try to overcompensate in an attempt to make up for what they feel they are losing. Perhaps she never believed those things and as her belief in god faded she tried desperately to find something to hold on to. She may not have known anything outside of the catholic church so her fear of not having the one constant in her life left her grasping at straws. Once she realized that she would not be living much longer, either inside or outside of the church, she lost some of her fear and was able to say what she felt.
I think you are bang on when you say she did not know anything outside the catholic church. She came from a very poor part of Italy, where the catholic church very much had an influence, especially on the poor. Maybe not so much now, but back in her day. Her life was very regimentalized in a way. Having children, raising children, tending to the husband, going to church. When life becomes so routine and regimented as that, I think you tend to not think for yourself all that much, although the trade off would be comfort in knowing that your boat doesn't get rocked all too much either. I think she did believe in the church and god during her life because she was conditioned to, which probably started at a VERY early age. I'm not saying that she didn't have thoughts and opinions of her own, but I think she was "trained" to shut up and tow the line, especially by authority figures.