Police and Psychics

[chessmanskeptic]

Hey de_bunk, get posting fingers working. I need your opinion on this. Hey if you figure out what the equation means, I will give out the info on how to do remote viewing with cybershaman free version. :cool: Here is another hint: go to http://communities.anomalies.net and run my formula through a search.

[Brickroad]

Originally posted by glee
Brickroad isn't *specifically* asking for 100% success!
Read his post carefully:
'in which the psychic being tested had more successful hits than would be normal by sheer chance'

Naturally he wants scientific conditions, e.g. a double-blind experiment.


I apologize if I worded my question in such a way that it was difficult for you to understand, Luci. But it looks like glee put the ball back into play for me, and the questions I asked have now been (indirectly) answered to my satisfaction. I am now clear that your opinion on the subject is that police SHOULD seek the help of psychics in their investigations, but such evidence SHOULD NOT be admissible into a court of law.

To throw a curveball into a mix... I'm sure you are aware, Luci, that the source of evidence introduced into a criminal case occasionally comes under scrutiny. For example, a murder weapon discovered in a suspect's apartment may be thrown out of a case completely if it can be shown that the police did not obtain a warrant. Keep in mind, this sort of situation would inevitably lead to a psychic being asked to testify that his information is accurate in a court of law. I honestly don't see a way that we could allow psychics to lead police to evidence, but not allow them to admit such evidence into a court of law.

(I admit that I'm really not learned in the way of legal matters such as this, so if anyone can show that such a situation would NOT be likely to occur, please feel free to do so.)

I find it curious, though, that you seem so certain that there is credible evidence to support this type of psychic aid, but do not think it should be able to hold up in court. It seems to me that if psychic evidence could be shown to be a reliable source of information, there'd be no need to exclude it from a trial.

In other news, I admit I find it distressing that chessmanskeptic will achieve an avatar long before I will. Trolls and spam wizards have that advantage over me, I suppose. :(

[glee]

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic
I have taken a look at the Ganzfeld data myself and I say that there is a slight chance that there might be something there.


Well any experiment runs the risk of randomness. If I say I can influence a roulette wheel, and you take me to a casino, then there will undoubtedly be an irregular sequence of red / black. If you (naively) ask me 'is that your power?', of course I'm going to reply affirmatively. :rolleyes:

By contrast, consider another invisible power on our lives - gravity. You can test for it anytime, anywhere. If near a massive body, you will detect it. If in space, you won't (at least not as strongly).
Why are psi powers so difficult to spot?

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic
I take Ernie Vega's view on this. I think that remote viewing is caused by the person wanting to extend the conscious mind. We probably do this a lot in our sleep and never even realize it.


I'm sure we'd all like to 'extend the conscious mind'. I personally would like to leap tall buildings, because Superman gets lots of adulation. However there is zero evidence that anyone can.
As for the usefulness of 'We probably do this a lot in our sleep and never even realize it', I have an offer for you:

I am the President of the British Society of Levitation. :cool:
I can teach you to levitate! :eek:
Just send me lots of money, and I guarantee success.
(Small print on)
- you can only levitate if you believe in my teachings (because of the negative effect of disbelief on paranormal powers*)
- you can only levitate in your sleep
- no refunds to gullible people
(/Small print on)

* a well known effect, which is seen every time scientists test for psi powers...

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic
The truth is that I think that MINERVA is going to slaughter all of these remote viewing kooks. This program supposedly will be able to make anyone have the ability of remote viewing. This program automatically conects you and automatically generates the coordinates. I personally have done remote viewing only by using Cybershaman. This is how I induced by first OBE and did my 1st remote viewing. I love the product to a point. I think the product has some potential in some areas.


Did you pay money for this product? (see above)

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic
I actually do have a $599 copy of Cybershaman, that I got for free.


Wow - you saved $599! (To think that some people paid for it - do you have their addresses, because they will probably want to levitate as well.)
And Cybershaman really worked for you...

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic
I found out the reason it did not work for me was that it did not clear my mind enough.


Lucky you didn't pay for it, then. Out of interest, was there a money-back guarantee?

Incidentally, why do you think the inventor of this magnificent technology doesn't pick up Randi's $1,000,000?
Think of the future sales of his $599 product. Why a genuine man would be rich!

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic
I personally think that Ernie is on vacation right now and that is why I have not received a reply from him in a while. I still have the info on how to remote view with Cybershaman if anyone wants to know.


Why don't you remote view Ernie, then? :confused:

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic
Focus is the key to inderstanding. I seriously want all of you to try it this time.


Do I have to pay someone $599?

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic
I pretty much gave up on it for a while then, well, I dusted off some old occult books I had and started reading them.


I like Buffy too. :)

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic
Once after obtaining enough occult knowledge, I realized like Ernie Vega did, there has to be something there in order for this sh** to work.


Something where?
Do you mean humans must be gullible to pay $599 for something that doesn't work?
Good grief, we'll have Pyramid Schemes and Nigerian Bankers next! :rolleyes:

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic
Here is the article I promised:
...human beings have a built in mechanism that demands explanations for everything they do not understand.


If that were true, why don't pupils listen all the time in School?

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic
As analytical beings we scrutinize our surroundings constantly. At some stage during our development we become comfortable with a set of circumstances and correlate them to a particular belief system. At this point we accept what we do not understand as a component of our comfort level. We rationalize what we do not understand in an attempt to deny our core realization that as a developing species, we are destined to always be ignorant about something.


Except scientists and researchers, presumably?

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic
Magic works, all forms of magic work. This fact has created a lot of confusion for a very long time.


The confusion is still there, since no-one has ever demonstrated magic under scientific testing.

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic
It did not take the more astute people long to learn, that to become a practitioner of magic or a priest of some sort was a very rewarding position to be in.


It didn't take frausters long to realise people were gullible either.
How do you tell them apart?

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic
Why do all forms of Magic work?
Here is the answer folks and it's a no-brainer, Magic works because people have the ability to perform Magic, all people do.


I think you mean 'why does gravity work?' Because we can demonstrate gravity (unlike 'magic').

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic
We do it every day, we even notice it but dismiss it as coincidence or just shrug.


Cite?

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic
Knowledge is power , but it takes time and effort to gain knowledge. The more knowledge you possess the more magic you can muster. It's a simple formula what you get out of it is in direct relation to what you put into it.


Gullibility is widespread, but it takes time and effort to gain money from suckers. The more chutzpah you possess the more money you can muster. It's a simple formula: what you get out of it is in direct relation to what you put into it.

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic
We now know that lightning is not the weapon of an angry deity for the punishment of evil transgressions. We know that adrenaline can bestow "supernatural" strength. We know that the Bolivian workers who could walk for days without rest and tarry endlessly without the benefit of proper diet, were chewing coca leaves for a source of energy.


Indeed. And these things were discovered by scientists, not 'magicians'.

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic
We have learned to build machines that can go faster than any species and fly higher and faster than any bird.


Absolutely. You can even book tickets over the Internet.

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic
We can see though walls and read the minds of others.


Cite?

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic
We have realized that the weather is a global system and as such can be manipulated.


Cite?

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic
We have learned to communicate long distance without smoke, drums, carrier birds, or wires. We can go on forever listing these things. The point is all of these things were supernatural as recently as a 200 years ago, some as recently as 50 years ago.


Actually most of these things didn't exist 200 years ago. Of course crooks perpetrating frauds have been around forever.

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic
In simpler terms magic is energy manipulation with the aid of the human mind/spirit in the absence of tangible tools with which to accomplish a given task.


Lovely. Errr...do you do demonstrations?

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic
So what is the secret?
The secret of the universe is Life Force. It's real, it can be measured, weighted and created by synthesis.


Cite?

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic
It's the most abundant component in the universe...


Not hydrogen then?

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic
It is only a matter of time and some soul searching by the physics establishment before we understand Life Force and it's viable implications.


Perhaps we need some scientific searching first. How do we detect Life Force? (Can you sell us a detector?)

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic
How did we get so confused?


When we stopped using scientific tests to decide if something exists.

[chessmanskeptic]

.

[chessmanskeptic]

Here is a link on the entire theory again, read all of it. And again I say, to the 1st person that figures out what corelates perfectly with my little math problem I will tell them how to remote view by using Cybershaman free version. Here is the link I told you about. I think Ernie is still on vacation though and that is why I have not seen anything of him lately. Here is the link, read it all and try to comprehend. Link: http://www.anomalies.net/cgi-bin/bb...=35&t=000004&p=

Note: I think the boards are really laggy today so keep trying if it does not connect.

[glee]

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic
Hey so you know I am a rosicrucian and a christian gnostic. A true seeker of old and occult knowledge. Did you even bother to read all the material I had for you. Anyways this below is a statement of my beliefs.:


Well I'm a scientist and an sceptical atheist. A true seeker of all knowledge, using the incredibly accurate scientific method.
Did you bother to read my post? I asked you a lot of questions.

Here are some of them again:

Why are psi powers so difficult to spot?

Why don't you remote view Ernie, then?

How do we detect Life Force?

And some claims you made, which I would like cites for:

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic

- We do it (magic) every day, we even notice it but dismiss it as coincidence or just shrug.

- We can see though walls and read the minds of others.

- We have realized that the weather is a global system and as such can be manipulated.

- The secret of the universe is Life Force. It's real, it can be measured, weighted and created by synthesis.

[chessmanskeptic]

...

[Liamo]

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic
One example of detecting this "life force" energy is well, lets say the healing touch is an example

Chessmanskeptic,

Is it the same energy that can be detected by Therapeutic Touch practitioners?

Liam

[xouper]

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic
... to the 1st person that figures out what corelates perfectly with my little math problem ...You mean this one?

PHI * 9 / 50 + 11 = the anti-virus to the human program

Are you one of those Golden Ratio wackos, like Dan Winter?

[chessmanskeptic]

No I am not a golden ratio wacko, yet it is good for remote viewing in Cybershaman. More on that later. Anyways, the answer was the Sun Spot Cycle. It coorelates perfectly with it. Kind of interesting. It was a pure accident that I stumbled upon it. The truth is that almost all occult teachings depend on the idea of "life force" energy. The truth is that all people doing anything occult in nature from remote viewing to dowsing to creation of religion depends on this idea. The reason I have the equation posted in my sig is well, changes in sun spots effects human behavior. We do not like admiting this, but it is true. During a sun spot change everything from people to telecommunications is screwed up. The interesting thing is that PHI is extremely accurate when it comes to the sun spot cycle, right down to the last number in the equation. Kind of fun actually when you figure it out. Another fun thing I use Cybershaman for is the sudden realization of knowledge. I have experimented with the idea and well, that is how I cam up with the equation. I was just messing around with the interface then, well, lets just say the next day I woke up with this equation in my head. It is kind of scary, but it seems that knowledge is also some type of mind form. More on this later.

[chessmanskeptic]

....

[chessmanskeptic]

.........

[davidhorman]

CMS, your little sum comes out to 11.291246117749810727876

I've only found two sites that give a figure more accurate than "11 years" for the sunspot cycle:

Further work revealed that the length of successive sunspot cycles is not strictly constant but varies from to 11.5 years, with an average cycle period of about 10.8 years.

Sunspot counts rise and fall approximately every 11.1 years. The cycle, though, is not symmetrical

Where did you get your number from?

David

[chessmanskeptic]

...

[glee]

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic
Here is an article from a university that explains everything a little bit better that I have:

http://spot.colorado.edu/~vstenger/Medicine/Biofield.html

It is quite an interesting article. Have you read it? ;)

Here are some quotes from it (bolding mine):

'As modern science developed in the West and the nature of matter was gradually uncovered, a few scientists sought scientific evidence for the nature of the living force. ....
Newton and others who followed the same trail never managed to uncover a signal for a special substance of spirit or life.'

glee: And Newton was pretty clever...

'I must at least mention the highly celebrated recent publication in a major medical journal of the tests of Therapeutic Touch performed by the schoolgirl Emily Rosa (Rosa 1998). In this simple experiment, TT practitioners were unable to detect Emily's "energy field." It seems that not only is this field so transparent that no one can see it, the theory behind it is so transparent that even a child can see through it. '

glee: So this energy field can't be detected?

'The exact nature of the bioenergetic field is not specified, even as a speculative hypothesis, in Rogers or the other literature on holistic healing. On the one hand, the biofield seems to be identified with the classical electromagnetic field; on the other it is confused with quantum fields or wave functions.'

glee: We don't know what it is...

'Some self-desribed psychics claim that they can "see" a human aura. The claim has not been substantiated (Loftin 1990). '

glee: ...we can't detect it...

'Any fanciful shapes seen in photographed auras emanating from humans can be attributed to optical and photographic effects, uncorrelated with any property of the body that one might identify as "live" rather than "dead," and the tendency for people to see patterns where none exist. '

glee: ...even with photography...

'Now it would seem that all these effects of electromagnetic fields in living things would be easily detectable, given the great precision with which electromagnetic phenomena can be measured in the laboratory. Physics can measure the magnetic dipole moment of the electron (a measure of the strength of the electron's magnetic field) to one part in ten billion, and calculate it with the same accuracy. It surely should be able to detect any electromagnetic effects in the body powerful enough to move atoms around or do whatever happens in causing or curing disease. But either physics nor any other science has seen anything that demands we go beyond well established physical theories. No elementary particle or field has been found that is uniquely biological. None is even hinted at in our most powerful detectors. '


glee: ....or powerful detection devices that are incredibly sensitive.

'Proponents of alternative medicine would have far fewer critics among conventional scientists if they did not resort to this kind of dishonesty and foolishness.'

'The bioenergetic field described in holistic literature seems to be confused with the aether. Or, perhaps no confusion is implied. They each share at least one common feature - nonexistence.'

glee: What?! It doesn't exist?

'Much as we might wish otherwise, the fact remains that no unique living force has ever been conclusively demonstrated to exist in scientific experiments....
These claims simply do not follow from any reasonable application of scientific criteria. '

'Much of alternative medicine is based on claims that violate well established scientific principles. Those that require the existence of a bioenergetic field, whether therapeutic touch or acupuncture, should be asked to meet the same criteria as anyone else who claims a phenomenon whose existence goes beyond established science. They have an enormous burden of proof, and it is time that society laid it on their thin shoulders.'

glee: Apparently not.

Well this article explains that your 'life force' doesn't exist.
Do you have any other evidence for it?

P.S. Don't forget my other questions!

[chessmanskeptic]

...

[davidhorman]

It just cam to me like someone hitting me with a baseball bat. It was some kind of sudden knowledge.

So you don't know if it's anything like the length of the sunspot cycle. If the two figures I posted are anything to go by, pi^2+sqrt(2) is closer. So what's so special about your equation?

David

[chessmanskeptic]

...

[The Fool]

Hmmm, Chesmanskeptic seems to have way too much time on his hands and looks like becoming yet another high volume troll. Has some evil entity been cloning trolls lately?

[chessmanskeptic]

I only get timelike this on the weekends. During class time monday-friday, I usually do not post alot.

[davidhorman]

The truth is that the one I created is more occult in nature than anything else.

It certainly bears no real relation to the sunspot cycle. Any small number added to 11 will be, well, approximately 11 :rolleyes:

David

[Hannibal]

I am so glad I don't post on this thread anymore.....wait.....*post-modernist nausea creeps over*.....DAMN IT!

[Lothian]

Originally posted by Lucianarchy




Right, so there's no reason why the police don't do the same thing, when all else fails, it would be irresponsible not to.

No, your question was what would I do not what the police should do.

There is a clear difference. I would be prepared to spend all the money I had on following up any potential leads. The police can not do this as they do not have the resources. I wouldn’t want them wasting money on a crime that doesn’t affect me so how can I ask them to do it just because it does.

We will agree however that when a psychic can be found who can pass tests to prove that they produce results that are better than chance then the police will be silly not to use them. Lets keep our fingers crossed that one day one psychic will respect the victims of crime enough to put themselves forward for proper testing.

[RonSceptic]

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic
hmmm thanks for the info. Like I said, I used Cybershaman with the help of creating this equation. The truth is that the one I created is more occult in nature than anything else. The idea of PHI is kind of fun. I have taken a look at Sacred Geometry. The truth is the idea of it is kind of taboo. It is geometry with the element of nature put into it. Plato and Pythagoras created the idea. Hey, these guys even created geometry. The works of Plato and Pythagoras are amazing. I personally go to this site for reference notes on sacred geometry: http://www.intent.com/sg/


I wonder what the Police Federation News Letter says about this? :D

[xouper]

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic
I have taken a look at Sacred Geometry. The truth is the idea of it is kind of taboo.I've looked at it too. Sacred geometry is to geometric shapes as numerology is to numbers. Sacred geometry is no more valid than numerology or astrology, i.e. it's bunk. Pythagoras was both a mathematician and a numerologist. Just because he got some math things right doesn't mean his numerology or sacred geometry has any merit. For example, the Pythgorean Theorem (in a right triangle, a^2 + b^2 = c^2) does not derive its merit because he said so, but rather because the proof stands on its own. The same cannot be said of numerology or sacred geometry, which are both devoid of any proofs whatsoever.

[Lucianarchy]

Originally posted by Lothian


No, your question was what would I do not what the police should do.

There is a clear difference. I would be prepared to spend all the money I had on following up any potential leads. The police can not do this as they do not have the resources. I wouldn’t want them wasting money on a crime that doesn’t affect me so how can I ask them to do it just because it does.

We will agree however that when a psychic can be found who can pass tests to prove that they produce results that are better than chance then the police will be silly not to use them. Lets keep our fingers crossed that one day one psychic will respect the victims of crime enough to put themselves forward for proper testing.

If a remote viewer leads the police to a body or gives them information which leads to the police obtaining evidence, then that's all the testing that is necessary.

[chrisjt]

Posted by Lucianarchy:
No, just some of the available evidence from credible sources. Aside form accusing the woman of being involved in a joint police conspiracy or accusing her of being involved in the crime, what is your mundane explanation for her providing the correct nickname and her accuracy in reading the police officer's change of job.

Lucianarchy, I agree that cold-reading alone doesn’t adequately explain what's going on here, but combined with hot-reading and a biased recollection of the facts, I think this adds up to a far more reasonable explanation than communication with a dead woman who remembered where she left her cushions but forgot when she was murdered.

The first thing to establish is whether or not Tony Batters is reliable in reporting the facts. The following contradictory quotes would suggest not:

From the Police Federation magazine:
"However, of some 130 points Christine made, more than 120 now seem to have proved absolutely correct. Others could never be confirmed or disproved. "

But in "Psychic News" the figures become even more impressive:
"In fact out of the 150 specific details she provided, the only discrepancy was that she gave the wrong date for the crime, an easy mistake to make at the best of times. "

And one detail provided by Mr. Batters is either incorrect or casts extreme doubt on his critical thinking abilities-
"we initially thought the incident had taken place in the lounge, but she insisted it started in the bathroom. There was an overturned rug there, and a towel-rail had been pulled from the wall, later confirmed to us as very recent damage."

But it's not just what's stated that's at fault, it's also what isn't. The most glaring omission is that the alleged Psychic lived just 10 minutes walk from the victim. The conclusion that Holohan probably obtained information about Jackie Poole from friends or neighbours(or from Jackie herself…before she died of course) is obvious. Another missing, yet important detail is that Anthony Ruark was Jackie's lover(making Holohan’s knowledge of his nickname a lot less impressive). He was also a known criminal and would have been a prime suspect.

There is no need to even mention allegations of police conspiracies or the woman’s involvement in the crime except as an exercise in straw-man building.

[Brickroad]

Originally posted by Lucianarchy

If a remote viewer leads the police to a body or gives them information which leads to the police obtaining evidence, then that's all the testing that is necessary.

This is a dangerous way of thinking, and here's a very simple scenario which shows why:

A man rapes and kills a woman he has never met. There are no witnesses, no evidence, and he has done a well enough job hiding the body that the police go for six months without finding it. One day, after the news has stopped running headlines and the dead woman is forgotten by all but her family, this man decides to make a name for himself by telling law enforcement that he has found the body via remote viewing. People are baffled as to how he obtained this knowledge.

In this case, and many simpler and less dramatic situations, the fact that remote viewing is claimed to be the reason evidence is found is not sufficient proof that it is so.

[Lucianarchy]

Originally posted by Brickroad


This is a dangerous way of thinking, and here's a very simple scenario which shows why:

A man rapes and kills a woman he has never met. There are no witnesses, no evidence, and he has done a well enough job hiding the body that the police go for six months without finding it. One day, after the news has stopped running headlines and the dead woman is forgotten by all but her family, this man decides to make a name for himself by telling law enforcement that he has found the body via remote viewing. People are baffled as to how he obtained this knowledge.

In this case, and many simpler and less dramatic situations, the fact that remote viewing is claimed to be the reason evidence is found is not sufficient proof that it is so.

Police are professional detectives and use DNA to secure evidence in cases like this, anyone who provdided location evidence would be asked to give a DNA sample.

[Lucianarchy]

Originally posted by chrisjt
Posted by Lucianarchy:


Lucianarchy, I agree that cold-reading alone doesn’t adequately explain what's going on here, but combined with hot-reading and a biased recollection of the facts, I think this adds up to a far more reasonable explanation than communication with a dead woman who remembered where she left her cushions but forgot when she was murdered.

The first thing to establish is whether or not Tony Batters is reliable in reporting the facts. The following contradictory quotes would suggest not:

From the Police Federation magazine:
"However, of some 130 points Christine made, more than 120 now seem to have proved absolutely correct. Others could never be confirmed or disproved. "

But in "Psychic News" the figures become even more impressive:
"In fact out of the 150 specific details she provided, the only discrepancy was that she gave the wrong date for the crime, an easy mistake to make at the best of times. "

And one detail provided by Mr. Batters is either incorrect or casts extreme doubt on his critical thinking abilities-
"we initially thought the incident had taken place in the lounge, but she insisted it started in the bathroom. There was an overturned rug there, and a towel-rail had been pulled from the wall, later confirmed to us as very recent damage."

But it's not just what's stated that's at fault, it's also what isn't. The most glaring omission is that the alleged Psychic lived just 10 minutes walk from the victim. The conclusion that Holohan probably obtained information about Jackie Poole from friends or neighbours(or from Jackie herself…before she died of course) is obvious. Another missing, yet important detail is that Anthony Ruark was Jackie's lover(making Holohan’s knowledge of his nickname a lot less impressive). He was also a known criminal and would have been a prime suspect.

There is no need to even mention allegations of police conspiracies or the woman’s involvement in the crime except as an exercise in straw-man building.

You make to many leaps of faith for a skeptic, these people are professional detectives not reporters for a local rag, do you even understand how serious withholding evidence is? LOL! You also fail to mention how CR could have provided the specific detail given regarding the police officer on the case.

[Lothian]

Originally posted by Lucianarchy


You make to many leaps of faith for a skeptic, these people are professional detectives not reporters for a local rag, do you even understand how serious withholding evidence is? LOL! You also fail to mention how CR could have provided the specific detail given regarding the police officer on the case.

Been there done that. The other thing I noted was that the interview took place some days after the murder. Newspapers would have certianly given some details and many people would have visited the murder scene.

[Hannibal]

Originally posted by Lucianarchy


Police are professional detectives and use DNA to secure evidence in cases like this, anyone who provdided location evidence would be asked to give a DNA sample.

I am not stirring the pot but this is not technically true. Police can only request a sample. The only time a sample can be taken without consent is after the individual has been charged.

There have been cases where the only evidence was DNA that was "illegally" held on file by the Police. The accused walked away because the DNA was rendered inadmissable. It may suck, but dems da facts ma'am:)

[chrisjt]

Posted by Luciananarchy:
You make to many leaps of faith for a skeptic, these people are professional detectives not reporters for a local rag, do you even understand how serious withholding evidence is? LOL! You also fail to mention how CR could have provided the specific detail given regarding the police officer on the case.

The only "leap of faith" I make is that It's easier to obtain information from living people than from dead ones.
And where did I mention anyone withholding evidence?

I didn't mention the police officer's cold reading because because it had already been mentioned in other posts.

[glee]

Lucianarchy,

Firstly I did ask some time ago for references to the quotes you posted (by Jessica Utts), what the J of Sci Exp stands for and whether it's available online.

Also what theories are there about how these powers work.

Please could you reply - you did say you would offer the evidence to anyone interested.

Secondly you have claimed that 'police use psychics'. I do have some contacts at Scotland Yard and will certainly ask them if you want me to.

But an examination of this website:

http://www.met.police.uk/index.shtml

shows no evidence of it.

Some extracts (bolding and comments mine):

'The Notorious Dr Crippen
The shocking case of a murdered wife which provided a historic instance of a criminal being caught with the aid of radio.

>glee: The police are happy to acknowledge first use of new technology / techniques. No mention of psychics.

>glee: A list of their supporting units:

'Traffic, Air Support, Public Order, Mounted Branch and Thames Division, which polices London's main waterway'

The British Transport Police, who are responsible for policing on the rail and tube systems;
The City of London Police, who cover the area within the boundaries of the Corporation of London;
and the Royal Parks Constabulary, who patrol some of London's major parks'

'The London Fire Brigade
The London Ambulance Service
The London Emergency Services Liaison Panel'

>glee: No mention of any psychic organisation (is there one?)

'Assistant Commissioner Michael Todd - responsible for Territorial Policing
Assistant Commissioner David Veness - responsible for Specialist Operations
Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur - responsible for Policy Review and Standards
Assistant Commissioner Bernard Hogan-Howe - Director of Personnel
Keith Luck - Director of Resources
Dick Fedorcio - Director of Public Affairs'

>glee: which one of these would psychic informants come under?

[Hannibal]

Actually to be fair we have now established that Luci is saying "Police use info provided by Psychics". This is a far more general statement to discuss. Everyone knows already that Police do not employ psychics or consult them.

[Kullervo]

I believe the correct formulation is

Police use info provided by "psychics".

Try this:

Everyone has lied at some time.

Therefore police use information provided by liars.

Is there a fallacy here?

[Hannibal]

I believe my position is more than clear. However, I was trying to clarify what Luci is claiming so that the debate does not degenerate into a "I did not say that..." debacle.

refer to my Ybo example to see what I mean.

[Kullervo]

Dr. Lechter, I wasn't trying to argue with you. Just offering what I thought was another version of Luci's fallacy.

[Hannibal]

Don't worry, I've already eaten!:D

Sorry i should have made myself clearer when I replied. I responded to what I thought was a question to me..damn my ego!

Apologies whitefork...perhaps you would like to come to dinner?....pthpthpthpthpth....:D

[Kullervo]

I'll bring the Chianti and the fava beans.

[Hannibal]

LOL:D

[RonSceptic]

Originally posted by chrisjt
[BThe most glaring omission is that the alleged Psychic lived just 10 minutes walk from the victim. The conclusion that Holohan probably obtained information about Jackie Poole from friends or neighbours(or from Jackie herself…before she died of course) is obvious. Another missing, yet important detail is that Anthony Ruark was Jackie's lover(making Holohan’s knowledge of his nickname a lot less impressive). He was also a known criminal and would have been a prime suspect.[/B]


So now we have the possibility of the 'psychic' having first hand knowledge of both the victim and the accused. So why would anyone take this case as proof of psychic powers? There are clearly alternative explanations for the events are described.

This case gets less mysterious by the minute. It's a pretty weak case for psychic crime solving.

Luci posted earlier that she/he had worked for 12 years for the home office as an expert witness, dealing with hundreds of officers.

So how about a list of the top ten crimnes solved by psychic powers?

[glee]

Originally posted by Hannibal
Actually to be fair we have now established that Luci is saying "Police use info provided by Psychics". This is a far more general statement to discuss. Everyone knows already that Police do not employ psychics or consult them.

Ok, I'll discuss that!

How about considering the level of confidence police have in various methods of investigation, and various types of evidence.

Let's rate:

- asking for a description
- collecting forensic evidence from the crime scene
- interviewing suspects
- searching crime databases
- profiling offenders
- using psychics

and also evaluate:

- forensic evidence (e.g. fingerprints or DNA)
- eye-witnesses at an identity parade
- confessions
- lie detectors
- alibi evidence
- psychic testimony

in terms of frequency of use and reliability....

[RonSceptic]

Originally posted by RonSceptic

Luci posted earlier that she/he had worked for 12 years for the home office as an expert witness, dealing with hundreds of officers.

So how about a list of the top ten crimnes solved by psychic powers?

Sound of leaves slowly rustling on wooden floor..........

[The Fool]

Originally posted by RonSceptic

Luci posted earlier that she/he had worked for 12 years for the home office as an expert witness, dealing with hundreds of officers.


Ron, can you point me to this, I must have missed it?


LUCI, LUCI, LUCI....please say it isn't true!!! If you made this claim exactly what sort of "Expert" were you.... I cannot recall any legal case where the crown or the defence have called an "expert" witness in the areas of parapsychology, psi or spoon bending. Can you give us some details?

[RonSceptic]

Originally posted by Lucianarchy


I usually ignore your posts these days, full, as they are, with anecdotal nonsense and flim-flam. So what if you were a police officer, you have been shown that your claim about how 'psychics' are treated is wrong. You were ill informed or ignorant, I don't particularly care which, but wrong, you are. But let me tell you this, sonny, not only have I spent over 12 years working for the Home Office assessing criminal cases, interviewing suspects, offenders and victims, in custody suites and on the streets and homes where these people live, actually *being* an expert witness, with thousands of hours of Crown Court work. Not only that, I have worked *alongside* hundreds of police officers, worked in over thirty different police stations, from all over the country, on all sorts of criminal cases, from all areas of specialism. I *know* I have a far, *far* reaching depth of experience than you. But in the case of these discussions here on this board, it is completely irrelevant, which is why I ahven't brought it up, personal anecdotal stuff is worthless in a forum debate using a skeptical analysis, as has been shown by your ill infomed nonsense about how the police alledgedly treat 'psychics'. I realise it is very important for you to have people around you who will 'believe' what you say, and agree with you, but this is a forum on skepticism, not the school playground. So I suggest you grow up a little bit and stick to the facts actually being discussed, not what you claim is your 'personal experience'. That's what UFO abductees do.

"pokie" How common is that?

Fool,

This is the full text of a post by Luci on page 5 of this thread. Last edited on 19th September.

Thousands of hours on crown court work! That about as many hours as she/he spends posting on this board.

[glee]

Originally posted by The Fool
LUCI, LUCI, LUCI....please say it isn't true!!! If you made this claim exactly what sort of "Expert" were you.... I cannot recall any legal case where the crown or the defence have called an "expert" witness in the areas of parapsychology, psi or spoon bending. Can you give us some details?

To be fair, Luci doesn't say what her speciality is.
Courts need doctors, probation officers etc.

I'm certain they don't count any form of psi as an expert witness.

[RonSceptic]

Originally posted by glee


To be fair, Luci doesn't say what her speciality is.
Courts need doctors, probation officers etc.

I'm certain they don't count any form of psi as an expert witness.

Toilet attendants, cleaners, tea ladies,..........yes I can see a role for someone of Luci's talents.

[glee]

Originally posted by RonSceptic
Toilet attendants, cleaners, tea ladies,..........yes I can see a role for someone of Luci's talents.

I'm newish, so don't understand this sarcasm.
Is Luci not highly rated?

P.S. Ronsceptic, if your location is accurate, we can't be more than 50 miles apart. I'm posting from Oakham....

[Lothian]

Originally posted by glee


I'm newish, so don't understand this sarcasm.
Is Luci not highly rated?



Depends on what the scale is measuring.

[xouper]

Originally posted by glee
I'm newish, so don't understand this sarcasm.
Is Luci not highly rated?Lothian said it best, "Depends on what the scale is measuring."

Luci is one of this forum's highest rated kooks. It's been suggested before that we have a FAQ about these things, but in Luci's case, it would take pages and pages to describe all of her kookiness. Don't be fooled by her momentary lapses into normalcy. I predict Luci will demand I post evidence for my assertions, despite the fact that she and the other regulars around here have already seen such evidence a bazillion times and are bored to death of it.

[RonSceptic]

Originally posted by glee


I'm newish, so don't understand this sarcasm.
Is Luci not highly rated?

P.S. Ronsceptic, if your location is accurate, we can't be more than 50 miles apart. I'm posting from Oakham....

Glee,

Take a look at Luci's webpage where you will find out what she/he believes in plus an pretty lame attack on Randi...


Super Woo Woo (http://www.angelfire.com/me/lucianarchy/)


We are prety close neighbours, I'm in Market Harborough! :)


Regards,
Ron.

[RonSceptic]

Originally posted by RonSceptic


Luci posted earlier that she/he had worked for 12 years for the home office as an expert witness, dealing with hundreds of officers.

So how about a list of the top ten crimnes solved by psychic powers?

Sound of church bell chiming softly in the distance........

[RonSceptic]

The gentle patter of rain on the skylight.......
All else is silence.


I guess ther just arn't any cases solved by psychics then.

What a suprise.

[Lothian]

Originally posted by RonSceptic
The gentle patter of rain on the skylight.......
All else is silence.


I guess ther just arn't any cases solved by psychics then.

What a suprise.

Ron, Luci is right and you are it is you that is wrong (http://www.salemweb.com/memorial/default.htm)

John Indian baked a witch cake made with rye meal and the afflicted girls' urine. This counter-magic was meant to reveal the identities of the "witches" to the afflicted girls.

[glee]

Originally posted by RonSceptic
Take a look at Luci's webpage where you will find out what she/he believes in plus an pretty lame attack on Randi...

Super Woo Woo (http://www.angelfire.com/me/lucianarchy/)

Regards,
Ron.

Dear Ron,

I did visit Luci's homepage.

There was a remote viewing test.

I couldn't resist taking it. (Obviously some psychic part of me took control.)

On the first two tests, I scored 77 and 76%!

Either I am psychic....

...or by typing exactly the same stuff each time (people, buildings etc), I have exposed the method of assessing as unreliable.

(ghostly music ON)
Only you can say....

[RonSceptic]

Originally posted by Lothian


Ron, Luci is right and you are it is you that is wrong (http://www.salemweb.com/memorial/default.htm)



LOL!
THank you pointing out the error of my ways!:D

I guess ther were lots of folk with Luci's mind set in the seventeenth century.

[RonSceptic]

Originally posted by glee


Dear Ron,

I did visit Luci's homepage.

There was a remote viewing test.

I couldn't resist taking it. (Obviously some psychic part of me took control.)

On the first two tests, I scored 77 and 76%!

Either I am psychic....

...or by typing exactly the same stuff each time (people, buildings etc), I have exposed the method of assessing as unreliable.

(ghostly music ON)
Only you can say....

I'd say you have about as much psychic power as Luci has.;)

[glee]

Originally posted by RonSceptic
I'd say you have about as much psychic power as Luci has.;)

(ghostly music ON)
I knew you were going to say that....

[RonSceptic]

Originally posted by glee


(ghostly music ON)
I knew you were going to say that....

Yes, so did I. I guess we are both as powerful as Luci.

[Lucianarchy]

Originally posted by RonSceptic


Oh yes, we all know who shy these mediums are don't we! When have you ever heard of a medium writing books or appearing on TV?

Talk about lame excuses!:D !

Some a tiny minority do write books, sure, but the majority, like supergrasses, would prefere to keep their identity hidden. Do you really think they would want to become an underworld target? The police are quite right in keeping psychics out of the legal arena.

[Desianarchy]

Lucy, honey, most of the nice folks here think it would be better if you laid off that there "supergrass" for a while.

Those nice Cuban cigars in the back of the closet have enough kick for now.

[Lothian]

Originally posted by Lucianarchy


Some a tiny minority do write books, sure, but the majority, like supergrasses, would prefere to keep their identity hidden. Do you really think they would want to become an underworld target? The police are quite right in keeping psychics out of the legal arena.

So the underworld are responsible for all crime. Missing schoolchilden? No underworld conflict there.

Not one single case presented by Luci.

Perhaps the only reason psychics are kept out to the legal arena is that they have nothing to offer.

[RonSceptic]

Luci,

How come no medium has been able to assertain from the victims of Ian Brady and Myra Hindley where they are buried?

Given the misery that the victims families have been going through for thirty odd years you would have thought that the victims would want to clear this matter up.

[Lothian]

Originally posted by RonSceptic
Luci,

How come no medium has been able to assertain from the victims of Ian Brady and Myra Hindley where they are buried?

Given the misery that the victims families have been going through for thirty odd years you would have thought that the victims would want to clear this matter up.

It doesn't work like that. A psychic can't help who comes to him/her and what information they offer, but I can say dearie I have a man here for you, a tall man ,he sayes that he is well and to be careful in business.

[RonSceptic]

Originally posted by Lothian


It doesn't work like that. A psychic can't help who comes to him/her and what information they offer, but I can say dearie I have a man here for you, a tall man ,he sayes that he is well and to be careful in business.


.....and I see a sea journey ahead....

Do you mean a plane journey? I'm taking a plane trip tomorrow.

.....Well, the plane will fly over the sea.....

What? There's sea between London and Machester?

.....er well a there are a few canals?, a coupe of rivers, and a swimming pool or two.....

Phew. amazing!

[Lucianarchy]

Cold Reading is not an explanation with credible scientific evidence to support its claims.

[xouper]

Lucianarchy: Cold Reading is not an explanation with credible scientific evidence to support its claims. Talking to the Dead is not an explanation with credible scientific evidence to support its claims.

[glee]

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
Cold Reading is not an explanation with credible scientific evidence to support its claims.

Well let's see:

- there are books teaching you how to do cold reading
- there are experts who have astonished audiences with cold reading (Ian Rowlands for example)
- there is a scientific explanation for cold reading (use standard techniques to give likely generalisations for unhappy bereaved people, who will grasp at anything that gives them comfort)

So cold reading is just like any other magic trick - the principles behind it are clear, and so is the reason it works.

Alas there is no such evidence for psychics...

[Lucianarchy]

Glee, the cold reraders are unable to replicate the same feats under the same conditions, as the mediums. There is no scientific evidence to support your claim. Other skeptics have confirmed this already in another thread - re the 'silent' sittings of Dr Schwartz experiments.

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
Glee, the cold reraders are unable to replicate the same feats under the same conditions, as the mediums. There is no scientific evidence to support your claim. Other skeptics have confirmed this already in another thread - re the 'silent' sittings of Dr Schwartz experiments.

Uh, Luci, what experiments are you referring to? You say that cold readers have been unable to replicate the same feats under the same conditions. So, you are saying that experiments were done with cold readers and the cold readers were not able to replicate the feats of the mediums. Which experiments were cold readers actually involved in?

Or are you drawing this conclusion based on that the fact that cold readers did not participate in the experiments? Because if that is the case, there is no way you can draw such a bold conclusion. The absence of cold readers in an experiment does not mean that they can't replicate what mediums do.

By your logic, I can conclude that mediums have no psychic abilities because they don't take the JREF million dollar challenge. Are you comfortable with this conclusion? You must be since it is very similar to the conclusion you have drawn.

[Lucianarchy]

Originally posted by KelvinG


Uh, Luci, what experiments are you referring to? You say that cold readers have been unable to replicate the same feats under the same conditions.

Indeed. It has now been confirmed that Cold Readers have been unable to replicate the same feats under the same conditions.
Even the magician and cold reader Russ Horowitz told Dr Scwartz something to the effect that he and other CR's were unable to produce the same effects without some form of dialogue with the sitter. When he viewed the mediums, he again was unable to identify any CR technique.

[xouper]

Lucianarchy: It has now been confirmed that Cold Readers have been unable to replicate the same feats under the same conditions.Wrong. You'll have to show better evidence than that to satisfy us true skeptics.

[Clancie]

Just to add to the record that some police departments do say they were greatly helped by psychics....

Noreen Reiner teaches at the FBI academy, and she is referred by the FBI to police departments around the country.

Patricia Gagliardo is another psychic who works with the police. Here are three testimonials about her:

"Our police department has used Ms. Gagliardo very successfully; through her psychic abilities we were able to close previously unresolved cases. I am satisfied with the fact that she is a true psychic. I can personally vouch for her integrity, honesty and moral character and would and have referred her to other police agencies in the country."

-Lt. Lawrence Fawcett, Coventry Police Dept. CT
"Pat Gagliardo is regularly consulted in homicide cases when all other available leads have been exhausted. I am at a loss to explain the phenomenon she possesses, however, the information received is credible and a solving factor in several cases. This officer will always remain indebted to Ms. Gagliardo for her assistance."

-William C. Gavitt, Deputy Chief, New London Police Dept. CT
"I watched in total disbelief and amazement as scratches appeared on the tops of Mrs. Gagliardo's hands while she performed psychometry on the bracelet of one of the missing girls. I also saw the scratches disappear! The missing and murdered girls were found exactly as she described they would be, and with their hands bound in wire! Mrs. Gagliardo made an instant believer out of me and I have recommended her to other police agencies."

-Detective Tom Williams, Wheeling Police Dept. Wheeling, WV

[xouper]

Clancy: Noreen Reiner teaches at the FBI academy, and she is referred by the FBI to police departments around the country. That's total bullsh*t. What's your source for this?

Patricia Gagliardo is another psychic who works with the police. Here are three testimonials about her:Those "testimonials" are from Ms Gagliardo's own personal website. I would hardly consider that an unbiased source. Got anything better than just her word for it?

She also calls herself a "Police-Accredited Clairvoyant & Medium."

Yeah, right. Since when do police "accredit" psychics?

[Clancie]

That's total bullsh*t. What's your source for this?
Well, the quote was from an interview (between Reiner and the self-described skeptical reporter) on Court TV (check the web-based interview). Naturally, I'd love to see the contrary facts that lead you to so confidently (arrogantly) call the reporter's introduction of Reiner "total bullsh*t.

While we're waiting for you to come up with that...here's a partial list of police departments she's worked with (from her website. Yes, naturally, if you have facts to the contrary, please provide them....)
Law Enforcement Lectures and Classes
(Noreen Reiner, A Partial List)

Florida Division of International Association for Identification Orlando, Florida

The 2nd International Seminar on Advancing The Scientific Investigation of Crimes Durham, England (Sponsored by THE BRITISH COUNCIL)

Sarasota Police Department Sarasota, Florida

St. Louis County & Municipal Police Academy Wellston, Missouri

Southwest Florida Criminal Justice Academy Fort Myers, Florida

Law Enforcement & Corrections Third International Conference Miami, Florida

Central Florida Criminal Justice Institute Orlando, Florida

Institute of Police Technology & Management Jacksonville, Florida

The Virginia Bureau of Forensic Science Richmond, Virginia

F.B.I. Academy Quantico, Virginia

Peninsula/Tidewater Regional Academy of Criminal Justice Hampton, Virginia

[Clancie]

And, Xouper, as far as Pat Gagliardo's credentials, you say...

Those "testimonials" are from Ms Gagliardo's own personal website. I would hardly consider that an unbiased source. Got anything better than just her word for it?
Actually, she quotes real people from real police departments. That's not quite like just giving her own word for it. These law enforcement officials were willing to be quoted on her website in support of her abilities.

What do you have to show these psychics--or the police--are lying? Or do you actually have evidence that they're just making it all up? If so, please provide it (I would also think the police departments would be interested in it.....)

She also calls herself a "Police-Accredited Clairvoyant & Medium."

Actually, Xouper, you're missing the point. I'm not saying, "Wow! Pat Gagliardo!!!! Noreen Reiner!!!! They're the greatest!!!" I'm just saying here are two examples of psychics who have provide specific references about their work with the police. If you know these references to have been checked and proven false, please supply the sources for that. I've looked and haven't seen any.

Otherwise, I think these two psychics should be given credit for providing specific testimonials and lists of police they have worked with, apparently with very satisfactory results. If you have facts to debunk them (as you apparently do, calling it "bullsh*t"), please, go ahead and share them.

[xouper]

Clancy: Noreen Reiner teaches at the FBI academy, and she is referred by the FBI to police departments around the country.

xouper: That's total bullsh*t. What's your source for this?

Clancy: Well, the quote was from an interview (between Reiner and the self-described skeptical reporter) on Court TV (check the web-based interview). Naturally, I'd love to see the contrary facts that lead you to so confidently (arrogantly) call the reporter's introduction of Reiner "total bullsh*t.That's your source? That's all you have? Give me a break. That proves nothing.

The FBI has said they do not use psychics and they do not refer psychics to any police department.

Show me an FBI source that says Noreen Reiner teaches at the FBI Academy.

Since these are your claims, it's up to you to prove them. In the meantime, I am entitled to express my opinion that your claims about Reiner are bullsh*t.

BTW, a google search of "court tv" and "noreen reiner" results in no hits. Got a link?

While we're waiting for you to come up with that...here's a partial list of police departments she's worked with (from her website. Yes, naturally, if you have facts to the contrary, please provide them....)First of all, where are the facts to support YOUR claims? And secondly, based on her lies about her involvement with the Williston, FL police department, her word is essentially worthless that she has solved any case for any police department. Do you have any independent evidence at all? Can you cite even a single case that she has solved for any of those police departments and how she solved it?

Actually, she [Gagliardo] quotes real people from real police departments. That's not quite like just giving her own word for it. These law enforcement officials were willing to be quoted on her website in support of her abilities. And how do you know those are legitimate quotes? Are we supposed to take your word for it? Or hers? I don't think so. On the Larry King Live show Sylvia Browne cited a police officer by name that she claimed to have worked with, which turned out to be false. What makes your two examples any different?

I'm just saying here are two examples of psychics who have provide specific references about their work with the police.What specific references? What cases? What information did they give that solved the cases? OK, so they say they have worked with the police. So what. Doesn't prove they helped solve any cases.

If you know these references to have been checked and proven false, please supply the sources for that. I've looked and haven't seen any. I mentioned one above. Noreen Reiner and the Williston police. That was proven false. Noreen did not solve that case.

Otherwise, I think these two psychics should be given credit for providing specific testimonials and lists of police they have worked with, apparently with very satisfactory results.I disagree. What satisfactory results? With no details and no proof, I don't see why they deserve the benefit of the doubt or any credit.

If you have facts to debunk them (as you apparently do, calling it "bullsh*t"), please, go ahead and share them.Maybe you'd like to take a look at Joe Nickell's book, Psychic Sleuths: ESP and Sensational Cases.

[xouper]

xouper: BTW, a google search of "court tv" and "noreen reiner" results in no hits. Got a link?Of course, it would help if I spelled the name correctly. I had used your spelling instead of the correct one.

http://www.courttv.com/talk/chat_transcripts/psychic.html

So, the chat moderator said she teaches at the FBI Academy. Why should should we take his word for it, since it seems obvious that he could simply have repeated what he was told by Renier?

[Clancie]

Xouper,

Your comment tries to discredits Renier's work with the police (which I didn't mention), not the FBI connection (which I did). You've not cast any doubt so far on the specific police testimonials from Gagliardo either. Also, what does Nickell specifically have to say about these two psychics' claims that I've mentioned?

If he says nothing about these points above, then its kind of silly to mention his book as if its relevant, isn't it? (And how do you know I haven't read it?)

Please remember, I'm not making claims about these two psychics. I am passing on the publicly posted references about their work because it may not be as easy to dismiss as total fabrication as some people here would like to do.

It seems discrediting these sources should be an easy job (just takes a phone call, right? Just like with Sylvia's claim, which was discredited almost immediately). But I haven't seen anyone do it.

If you have, you should share it.

Here are the links:

renier's website
http://nrenier.members.atlantic.net/index.html
________
interview with renier on court tv:
http://www.courttv.com/talk/chat_transcripts/psychic.html
________
pat gagliardo police testimonial page
http://www.patgagliardo.com/testimonial.htm
________
article at skeptic site discussing government use of psychics.
http://www.skepticism.net/discussion/fullthread

The original article about the FBI and psychics was cited in the London Sunday Times, November 11, 2002, but the Times only archives free to the public for 7 days. However, their article been much discussed and cited elsewhere. I'm sure you can find numerous other references to it, if this doesn't suffice. Its also well established that the US Intelligence agencies have used remote viewers (psychics) in the past. If you doubt that, do a search and you'll see much about it.

[Clancie]

Trying that last link again. If it still doesn't work, just go to skepticism.net and search as "Psychics and the FBI".

http://www.skepticism.net/articles/2002/000010.html

[Pyrrho]

http://members.aol.com/garypos/Renier_chap_pt2.html


However, Robert Ressler testified in his deposition that Renier's claim to having worked as a psychic for the FBI "is not true from the standpoint of being a paid employee and is not true from the standpoint of her being on a retainer or being used in any regular capacity. She does not work on FBI cases." (17) Added Ressler, "Merrell wanted to know whether the FBI used psychics in our investigative process. And I told him that was absolutely something I wouldn't discuss, but, in reality, we don't." (18) Additionally, Renier was compelled to modify her promotional literature as a result of a reproach by Ressler, who testified that she had claimed "that she was an instructor for the FBI, something along that line, and I told her she could not say that." (19)

[xouper]

Clancy: Your comment tries to discredits Renier's work with the police (which I didn't mention), not the FBI connection (which I did).Then I assume you are retracting your earlier claim when you said, "Just to add to the record that some police departments do say they were greatly helped by psychics..." and then you immediately mentioned Renier's name. I see pyrrho2000 posted the cite confirming that Renier did not work for the FBI nor was she an instructor at the FBI Academy.

You've not cast any doubt so far on the specific police testimonials from Gagliardo either.And you haven't established that they are legitimate. It's not incumbant upon me to disprove your claims.

Please remember, I'm not making claims about these two psychics. I am passing on the publicly posted references about their work because it may not be as easy to dismiss as total fabrication as some people here would like to do.OK, then if all you are doing is repeating the claims made by those two alleged psychics, then I choose to simply dismiss those claims as self-serving and unsubstantiated. Apparently you are not going to offer any proof otherwise.

[Clancie]

Interesting, Pyrrho2000. Would you please post your source?

Two reasons the source seems particularly important. First, these quotes seem a bit equivocating to me and I'd like to see the context:
"Renier's claim to having worked as a psychic for the FBI is not true from the standpoint of being a paid employee"
"..and is not true from the standpoint of her being on a retainer or being used in any regular capacity."
Added Ressler, "Merrell wanted to know whether the FBI used psychics in our investigative process. And I told him that was absolutely something I wouldn't discuss".
Then it sounds like in this interview (when he was not under oath any more) he added, "but, in reality, we don't (use psychics)." Sounds like he added it after the fact, but wouldn't say it in his deposition. I'd like to see if that's the case.

Also, whatever your source, it states:
Additionally, Renier was compelled to modify her promotional literature as a result of a reproach by Ressler, who testified that she had claimed "that she was an instructor for the FBI, something along that line, and I told her she could not say that."
Again, why doesn't Ressler just bluntly say, "The FBI doesn't work with psychics and we have never used Ms. Renier in any capacity whatsoever." Why all the careful phrasing with the potential for relationships that are being left out of the description?

This suspicion is heightened by the fact that Renier's website still apparently is allowed to post both of these statements:
"In 1981, when Psychic Investigator, Noreen Renier first lectured at the FBI Academy in Quantico, Virginia...."
And, quoting Ressler himself:
"...She helped to locate a plane containing the body of a relative of an FBI agent." Robert Ressler, Ex-FBI
So, again, what's your source for the Ressler information?

[The Fool]

Inspector Fool from the psychic police wants to know what you were all doing at the time this dead Lucianarcy thread was dug up again. If you don't answer now I can always take you ALL down to the station and get out the Tarot cards...I'll get to the bottom of this....

[Smalso]

Is it all that surprising that any organization--police, FBI, CIA--that has so much faith in the polygraph as a forensic tool would have any problem using psychics?

[Lucianarchy]

"On March 24, 1994, a sixty-six-year-old man named Norman Lewis left his house in Williston, Florida, in his truck and simply disappeared. He left behind his wallet and various personal items, which he would have been expected to take if he was going on a long trip. The case baffled the local police. Williston is a small town, and the police initially thought this would be a simple case which be cleared up relatively quickly.

Despite hundreds of leads, after two years the police and Lewis's family were nowhere near finding out what had happened to him. It was at this point that the family suggested the police contact a psychic detective.

Luckily for the family, Detective Brian Hewitt, who had worked with the Williston police, had recently attended a conference where psychic detective Noreen Renier had lectured. Hewitt was impressed by Renier and decided to recommend her services to the Lewis family."

JREF moderator 'Ed' checked verified that the police did in fact get help from Noreen Renier:

"I spoke to Sgt. Hewitt a few minutes ago. To lhis credit, he believes that this chick helped. - JREF Moderator 'Ed'.

[xouper]

Lucianarchy: JREF moderator 'Ed' checked verified that the police did in fact get help from Noreen Renier: "I spoke to Sgt. Hewitt a few minutes ago. To lhis credit, he believes that this chick helped." - JREF Moderator 'Ed'. Predictably, Luci once again trots out a detail that has been totally refuted a million times over. Noreen Renier did not provide any information that solved this case, regardless what Sgt Hewitt said, as anyone can plainly verify by looking at the case itself. Luci is nothing more than a lame broken record. Get some new material, Luci.

[Pyrrho]

Originally posted by Clancy
Interesting, Pyrrho2000. Would you please post your source?



The source is Gary Posner. His article is available at the URL listed in my post above:

http://members.aol.com/garypos/Renier_chap_pt2.html

Posner quotes from Resslers sworn court testimony in the Merrell case; Ressler was not interviewed by Posner.

http://members.aol.com/garypos/reply_Duffie.html


Duffie: "Posner took another approach. This is really paranormal. I quote: 'When I called the FBI Academy, I was informed that Robert Ressler has since retired from duty.' Naturally Posner would contact Ex-FBI Agent Ressler at his home? He is in business and is listed in the directories. But, no. He never did. Instead he questioned Supervisory Special Agent Richard Ault . . . "

Response: When I called the FBI, neither the initial person with whom I spoke, nor Mr. Ault (to whom, as an associate of Ressler's, I was referred), invited me to track Ressler down at his home or another business -- I was informed that Ressler had retired. In lieu of conducting a personal interview with Ressler, I quoted from his sworn court testimony.


I cannot speculate about Ressler's seeming equivocation. I would say that Ressler's sworn court testimony trumps statements he made outside the courtroom.

[alfaniner]

Interesting that in the other thread Luci gripes about Ed's comment from way back, yet here he uses Ed's comment to support his claim.

[Lucianarchy]

Originally posted by alfaniner
Interesting that in the other thread Luci gripes about Ed's comment from way back, yet here he uses Ed's comment to support his claim.

During my education of Ed on his way to become a skeptic, he has chosen to behave sometimes like a child. The sort of 'repulsive' behaviour Ed is acting out is perfectly normal in some students, particularly those who find the transition to enlightenment a struggle in terms of an egocentric conflict. I reject behaviour, not the person.

His skepticism at cheking the source was to be praised, he verified the fact that the police indeed do use psychics to help them with their detection. We, and other skeptics, have already confirmed this through the Police Federation article at the beginning of this thread, we have laso established why, like 'supergrasses', the 'psychic' is kept out of any legal proceeding and only used for intelligence gathering purposes. The police do the 'solving', not the Suprgrass, or the Psychic.

[xouper]

As further evidence of Jeff Corey's observation that Luci is a badly written version of the AI program Eliza, here we see Luci repeating tired old assertions that have been refuted a million times before:

Lucianarchy: ... [Ed] verified the fact that the police indeed do use psychics to help them with their detection.This is, of course, a blatant lie. Ed did no such thing. What Ed did was confirm that Hewitt continues to put an unwarranted spin on Renier's involvement with the case. Everyone who has looked at the case knows that the information given by Renier was totally wrong and did not help in any way to solve the case.

We, and other skeptics, have already confirmed this through the Police Federation article at the beginning of this thread, Wrong again. Get some new material, Luci.

[Patrickt]

I spent thirty years as a police officer. When it comes to skepticism police departments seem to meet societies demographics. They have just as many true believers of various stripes as anywhere else. Two departments near me hired a psychic to help on investigations and they both were amazed at the success of the psychics. They both had lists of "hits" the psychic had made. I sat down and crossed out the ones that had been in the newspapers or on television. The true believers complained that the psychic had said he hadn't read the paper or watched television.

The items left were ludicrous. In one community with a university as the largest industry in town the psychic said the suspect would be somehow connected to the university. It turned out he drove through campus frequently and the officers who brought the psychic in counted that as a strong positive hit.

In my opinion, the officers responsible for bringing in the pyschics have a very strong investment in the psychics being correct and will do whatever they can to create a positive result.

I also knew officers who believed in alien abductions, satanic cults kidnapping children, precognitive dreams, gypsy fortune tellers. Go figure.

[Smalso]

Take someone who believes in psychics and is willing to fudge the evidence to make the psychics appear to be right; and who believes in "alien abductions, satanic cults kidnapping children, precognitive dreams, gypsy fortune tellers." Now give that person a badge and a gun. Scary, isn't it?

[Lucianarchy]

It does not alter the fact that there is clear evidence that psychics are evidently used for intelligence gathering purposes.

[Pyrrho]

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
It does not alter the fact that there is clear evidence that psychics are evidently used for intelligence gathering purposes.

The "evidence" is anecdotal and can be disregarded. If psychics have gathered anything, it's not intelligence, it's stupidity.

Psychics have failed each and every time they've been involved. All they've succeeded in doing is gathering a few headlines and pocketing undeserved fees, along with exploiting grieving, desperate people and stupid police officers.

As EdGod used to say, "Sniff test." The results speak for themselves. Psychics are not pyschic at all.

[chrisjt]

I watched in total disbelief and amazement as scratches appeared on the tops of Mrs. Gagliardo's hands while she performed psychometry on the bracelet of one of the missing girls. I also saw the scratches disappear!

-Detective Tom Williams, Wheeling Police Dept. Wheeling, WV

All this quote does is show how gullible Tom Williams really is. Or maybe he's just impressed by third-rate conjuring tricks.

[Lucianarchy]

So there we have it, folks. Wolverine, Like ex-JREF Moderator 'Ed', has contacted the police and confirmed that the police do indeed work with psychics, and do not shun them, as claimed by pseduo-skeptics.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Ugh! Look what the cat dragged in.

Bad Kitty! Bad Kitty!

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
So there we have it, folks. Wolverine, Like ex-JREF Moderator 'Ed', has contacted the police and confirmed that the police do indeed work with psychics, and do not shun them, as claimed by pseduo-skeptics.

How you're able to discern that from the correspondence, I'll never understand (nor will I understand why you felt it necessary to dredge up this thread):

E-mail from Scotland Yard
Dear Sir,

Thank you for your email. My knowledge is that we do not employ psychics but if they offer suggestions we take them into consideration as we do with any evidence offered by anyone.

Email Office
Metropolitan Police Service
New Scotland Yard
London SW1H 0BG
www.met.police.uk

Go chase another ambulance.

[RonSceptic]

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
I spent over 12 years working for the Home Office assessing criminal cases, interviewing suspects, offenders and victims, in custody suites and on the streets and homes where these people live, actually *being* an expert witness, with thousands of hours of Crown Court work. Not only that, I have worked *alongside* hundreds of police officers, worked in over thirty different police stations, from all over the country, on all sorts of criminal cases, from all areas of specialism.

That's a quote from one of Luci's posts on page 5 of this thread.

If true, it's rather strange that the only evidence of psychic assistance to crime solving that Luci can point to is a hotly contested case with huge question marks over it.

You would think that Luci would list dozens of cases on the public record when a psychic has clearly provided crucial information.



Maybe Luci can tell us why no pychics have been able to contact Keith Bennet (Moors Murder victim) and find out where his body is. I'm sure he is keen to put his family out of their living hell after thiry odd years.


Or how about a chat with Suzi Lamplugh?:rolleyes:


If psychics could speak with the dead there would be no unsolved murders.

[Lucianarchy]

Originally posted by Wolverine


How you're able to discern that from the correspondence, I'll never understand (nor will I understand why you felt it necessary to dredge up this thread):



As you'll note, the guy admitted to his [i]knowledge[/] only, that psychics are not [i]employed], yet also admits that they are used for intelligence gathering purposes like anyone else. This demonstrates that they are not shunned and treated in the dismissive way that others here claimed. Given the PolFed article and confirmation from many serving officers both here in the UK and in the US that we can now conclude that Psychics indeed do work with the police in a positive intelligence gathering role.

The reason this was "dredged" up is to remind fellow skeptics that the issue is a live one and to remind pseudo-skeptics that the issue has been reinforced with documentation and research coming from members of this forum.

[Lucianarchy]

Originally posted by Wolverine


How you're able to discern that from the correspondence, I'll never understand (nor will I understand why you felt it necessary to dredge up this thread):



As you'll note, the guy admitted to his knowledge only, that psychics are not employed, yet also admits that they are used for intelligence gathering purposes like anyone else. This demonstrates that they are not shunned and treated in the dismissive way that others here claimed. Given the PolFed article and confirmation from many serving officers both here in the UK and in the US that we can now conclude that Psychics indeed do work with the police in a positive intelligence gathering role.

The reason this was "dredged" up is to remind fellow skeptics that the issue is a live one and to remind pseudo-skeptics that the issue has been reinforced with documentation and research coming from members of this forum.

[RonSceptic]

Once is enough thank you.

[darling]

Hey Wolverine...

How about dashing off another email to them. I can see it now...

Potential E-mail from Scotland Yard
Dear Sir,

Thank you for your email. My knowledge is that we do not employ mental patients but if they offer suggestions we take them into consideration as we do with any evidence offered by anyone.

Email Office
Metropolitan Police Service
New Scotland Yard
London SW1H 0BG
www.met.police.uk Then I can do a Lucianarchy and say:

As you'll note, the guy admitted to his knowledge only, that mental patients are not employed, yet also admits that they are used for intelligence gathering purposes like anyone else. This demonstrates that they are not shunned and treated in the dismissive way that others here claimed.

I kill me.

[Lucianarchy]

Originally posted by budddyh
Hey Wolverine...

How about dashing off another email to them. I can see it now...

Then I can do a Lucianarchy and say:

As you'll note, the guy admitted to his knowledge only, that mental patients are not employed, yet also admits that they are used for intelligence gathering purposes like anyone else. This demonstrates that they are not shunned and treated in the dismissive way that others here claimed.

I kill me.

...Except the PolFed have not published collusive work with mental patients which produce positive outcomes. Whereas, evidently, with psychics and Supergrasses, they do.

[Lucianarchy]

We (thanks to wolfern and Ed), have proved beyond all reasonable doubt that psychics work in a positive manner with the police.

Case solved.

[TLN]

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
We (thanks to wolfern and Ed), have proved beyond all reasonable doubt that psychics work in a positive manner with the police.

Case solved.

Still running from me I see...

[Lucianarchy]

Originally posted by TLN


Still running from me I see...

" L'OH, OH, vedo, funzionando via, 'eh? Ingiallite i bastardi! Ritorni
qui e prenda che cosa sta venendo a voi. Morderò i vostri piedini
fuori! " :D :D :D

[LeFevre]

Originally posted by Lucianarchy


" L'OH, OH, vedo, funzionando via, 'eh? Ingiallite i bastardi! Ritorni
qui e prenda che cosa sta venendo a voi. Morderò i vostri piedini
fuori! " :D :D :D

Why do you do that? Why do you not post in English? Are you trying to make it even more difficult to communicate with others?

[Lucianarchy]

Originally posted by LeFevre


Why do you do that? Why do you not post in English? Are you trying to make it even more difficult to communicate with others?

http://www.hrd1715.com/museumreplicaarmor.html

[Lucianarchy]

re-bumped for newbie interest in police / psychic collaboration.

[RonSceptic]

Originally posted by Lucianarchy


But let me tell you this, sonny, not only have I spent over 12 years working for the Home Office assessing criminal cases, interviewing suspects, offenders and victims, in custody suites and on the streets and homes where these people live, actually *being* an expert witness, with thousands of hours of Crown Court work. Not only that, I have worked *alongside* hundreds of police officers, worked in over thirty different police stations, from all over the country, on all sorts of criminal cases, from all areas of specialism. I *know* I have a far, *far* reaching depth of experience than you

Luci posted this on September 9th 2002. Given this wealth of experience shouldn't she have dozens of clear examples of cases solved by psychic means?

[Lucianarchy]

Originally posted by RonSceptic


Luci posted this on September 9th 2002. Given this wealth of experience shouldn't she have dozens of clear examples of cases solved by psychic means?

I do not claim psychics solve cases. :rolleyes:

The police do work with some psychics, supergrasses and others for intelligence gathering purposes though. Why do you find that difficult to comprehend? :confused:

[Psiload]

Originally posted by Lucianarchy


I do not claim psychics solve cases. :rolleyes:

The police do work with some psychics, supergrasses and others for intelligence gathering purposes though. Why do you find that difficult to comprehend? :confused:

In your opinion, are these psychics more of a help, or a hinderance to the police forces that agree to accept their assistance?

One more time... are the police better off with, or without the help of psychic detectives?

[Lucianarchy]

Originally posted by Psiload


In your opinion, are these psychics more of a help, or a hinderance to the police forces that agree to accept their assistance?


I don't really have an opinion on that particular issue.
You'd have to ask the officers involved. I do know that 'Ed' checked with the Williston detective involved with Ms Renier and he confirmed:

Originally posted by Ed


"I spoke to Sgt. Hewitt a few minutes ago. To lhis credit, he believes that this chick helped. - JREF Moderator 'Ed'.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
It does not alter the fact that there is clear evidence that psychics are evidently used for intelligence gathering purposes.

This cannot be true, because there are no such things as psychics, only people that think they are.

If you want to prove me wrong, get one of the "psychics" to take the JREF million.;)

[Psiload]

Originally posted by Lucianarchy


I don't really have an opinion on that particular issue.
You'd have to ask the officers involved. I do know that 'Ed' checked with the Williston detective involved with Ms Renier and he confirmed:

You have no opinion on the matter? You won't even venture a guess? I can't understand why you would put so much time and effort into defending "psychic detectives", yet at the same time remain genuinely unconcerned with the central tenent of whether they do more harm than good? Would you at least acknowledge the distinct possibility that "psychic detectives" are more hinderance than help to law enforcement investigations?

As far as asking the police agencies involved with "psychic detectives"... they HAVE been asked... and the answer is an overwhelmingly resounding NO. No, we do not employ "psychic detectives". No, we do not solicit the assistance of "psychic detectives". No, we do not lend the leads and tips of "psychic mediums" any more credibility than we treat leads and tips from any other sources. No, none of our cases have been solved by "psychic detectives". No, "psychic detectives" are not likely to provide usefull information, they are much more likely to waste our time and resources investigating false leads. Specifically, the FBI and the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children, who have fielded thousands of tips, and offers of assistance from "psychic detectives" yet still maintain that to their knowledge, psychic detectives have never helped solve a single missing-person case.

[reprise]

The Williston PD's entire file on the Lewis case was released in response to a Florida Public Records Act request. See here (http://www.noveltynet.org/content/paranormal/www.parascope.com/en/articles/notSoPsychic.htm). The article includes a link to Hewitt's 1995 reports.

Following her "success" in the Lewis case, Renier took up residence in Williston.

[Lucianarchy]

Originally posted by Psiload
You have no opinion on the matter?

Not really.

The important thing here is that quite evidently there are some psychics (as listed on the Scotland Yard databse) who provide useable intelligence for the police both in the UK and the US.

[thaiboxerken]

http://www.valleyskeptic.com/psychic.htm

http://www.csicop.org/sb/9703/belgium.html

The important thing here is that quite evidently there are some psychics (as listed on the Scotland Yard databse) who provide useable intelligence for the police both in the UK and the US.

So you claim. Yet, has there been 1 police document that listed psychics as being a source of evidence? Has it been used in a court of law?

The only thing evident here is that psychics and the believers will say/fabricate anything to try and give credibility to their claims. You know what you can do to give credibility to psychics, Luci, you can take the JREF million from Randi.

[Clancie]

Posted by thaiboxerken

The only thing evident here is that psychics and the believers will say/fabricate anything to try and give credibility to their claims
This is a very strange statement coming from you, of all people, thaiboxerken.

You're the one who fabricated the claim that Claus's 94mb file shows I'm a liar.

When you were repeatedly asked for evidence of your claim, you said you didn't need to give any.

Or did you really mean to write this, tbk: "The only thing evident here is that 'skeptics' like me will say/fabricate anything to try and give credibility to our claims."

Can you spell h-y-p-o-c-r-i-s-y? :rolleyes:

[Lucianarchy]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken


The only thing evident here is that psychics and the believers will say/fabricate anything to try and give credibility to their claims. You know what you can do to give credibility to psychics, Luci, you can take the JREF million from Randi. [/B]

No one's claiming evidence for use in a Court of Law, we're talking about intelligence gathering. In case you are unaware, the police use many mediums in which to glean intelligence to help them make decisions which will solve a case, and evidently some psychics are one of those mediums. An officer doesn't need to say in Court why he happened to look somewhere, just that he did.

If you're suggesting the Police Federation are guilty of fabrication, then you really need to be upfront about it and provide some evidence of fabrication.

[Stumpy]

Luci, you are in error in a number of areas. Speaking with 16 years experience in the UK Police Service, 12 years as a Detective involved in many Murders and other serious crimes can I correct you on the following issues:

Scotland Yard does NOT hold a database including psychics. The database you allude to is held with the National Crime Faculty. Surely your time in the Home Office would have made you aware that this is, and always has been, held at the Police Staff Training College in Bramshill. To go on the database you merely have to apply in writing, to my knowledge there is no "test", no checks etc. You simply offer your services as being an "expert" in any given field, the force area requesting the assistance of anyone on the list must assess the value of the "expert". Merely because any individual or organisation is on the database does not mean that they have ever been used by UK Police.

It is misleading to state that a Police Officer doesn't have to explain why he looked in a particular place, merely that he did. If asked the question in court the officer most certainly DOES have to explain why he looked in a particular place. Inevitably that question will be asked in any situation where something significant has been found. In any event, your Home Office experience will have made you cognizant of the rules of disclosure - the defence is entitled to all evidence and intelligence unless it is particularly sensitive in which case you must make your case for witholding the information in front of a Crown Court Judge. There is NO WAY that a Judge would agree to "intelligence" from a psychic being witheld.

UK Police do not solicit the assistance of Psychics. If, during a Criminal enquiry someone contacts the Police stating that they have information pertinent to that Crime, then the Police are duty bound to follow up that information. Experience tells me that whenever there is a high-profile enquiry we get deluged with calls from every wacko, delusional nutter and no-lifer who wants to make a name for themselves amongst the honest well meaning call. An astonishing amount of time gets wasted on the dubious claims because everthing HAS to be followed up

In relation the the article in the Police Federation magazine. The majority of articles are written by serving and former Police officers. The views expressed in those articles do not necessarily reflect the views of the Police Federation. The murder referred to in the article was solved, but in no way did the intervention of the psychic assist in solving that crime. The psychic lived on the same estate as the victim, within in walking distance in fact. The information from the psychic would have been far more impressive if there had been some distance between the psychic and the scene. It would have been more impressive if the psychic had been able to repeat her psychic crime solving abilities on another case, I can find no record of her doing so. The offender was in fact the main suspect from the start, mainly due to the fact that he was a lover of the victim and NOT due to any intervention of the psychic.

UK Police officers are (sadly) not trained in critical thinking and the art of detecting cold/warm/hot reading or any of the other techniques used by "psychics". The officer who wrote the article therefore did not have sufficient "tools" available to detect fraud if indeed that was the case in respect of the "psychic".

In case you are unaware, the police use many mediums in which to glean intelligence to help them make decisions which will solve a case

This is a shocking distortion of the truth. It is more accurate to say that "mediums use the Police to enhance their reputation"
I cannot conceive of any situation where the UK police will use a psychic to guide their decision making process.

I hope this clears up a few misapprehensions that you have.

Best Wishes

Stumpy

[thaiboxerken]

If you're suggesting the Police Federation are guilty of fabrication, then you really need to be upfront about it and provide some evidence of fabrication.

Actually, the Police Federation needs to provide evidence that the people they claim are psychic actually have superpowers. Until then, I'll stick with the reality that people do not have superpowers.

If the FBI said that they sent superman to apprehend Osama Bin Laden, would you believe them?

The fact is, psychic phenomena is not an established fact. To claim a person is psychic is absurd, and will be absurd until the phenomena is established as fact by the scientific community.

Luci, you deluded woo-woo, come take the JREF money and prove to me that people can have superpowers.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by Stumpy


In relation the the article in the Police Federation magazine. The majority of articles are written by serving and former Police officers. The views expressed in those articles do not necessarily reflect the views of the Police Federation. The murder referred to in the article was solved, but in no way did the intervention of the psychic assist in solving that crime. The psychic lived on the same estate as the victim, within in walking distance in fact. The information from the psychic would have been far more impressive if there had been some distance between the psychic and the scene. It would have been more impressive if the psychic had been able to repeat her psychic crime solving abilities on another case, I can find no record of her doing so. The offender was in fact the main suspect from the start, mainly due to the fact that he was a lover of the victim and NOT due to any intervention of the psychic.


Whoa.. so a psychic may have helped the police, but did so because of mundane knowledge.

I guess if a psychic gives me a buck, I can claim that a psychic helped my financial status.

:roll:

Wow, believers are stupid.

[Pyrrho]

Why would the UK police use psychics, when psychics are listed as a form of "cross border fraud" the UK Department of Trade and Industry is actively working to end? It would be interesting -- but not surprising for a government -- if the police hired psychics to catch fraudulent psychics -- as if there were any other kind. :rolleyes:

http://www.gnn.gov.uk/gnn/national.nsf/TI/8AD14099F33E499280256D4800432C0A?opendocument


Other scams

Other types of scam that have come to the attention of enforcement
authorities include - alleged 'psychics' and clairvoyants; misleading
health and diet claims; misleading prize draws (including some that claim to be UK based but have a PO Box hiding an overseas
connection); and timeshare and holiday club scams, which are
notorious for using high pressure selling techniques and evading
consumer protection laws.

[RonSceptic]

Originally posted by Stumpy
Luci, you are in error in a number of areas. Speaking with 16 years experience in the UK Police Service, 12 years as a Detective involved in many Murders and other serious crimes can I correct you on the following issues:

Scotland Yard does NOT hold a database including psychics. The database you allude to is held with the National Crime Faculty. Surely your time in the Home Office would have made you aware that this is, and always has been, held at the Police Staff Training College in Bramshill. To go on the database you merely have to apply in writing, to my knowledge there is no "test", no checks etc. You simply offer your services as being an "expert" in any given field, the force area requesting the assistance of anyone on the list must assess the value of the "expert". Merely because any individual or organisation is on the database does not mean that they have ever been used by UK Police.

It is misleading to state that a Police Officer doesn't have to explain why he looked in a particular place, merely that he did. If asked the question in court the officer most certainly DOES have to explain why he looked in a particular place. Inevitably that question will be asked in any situation where something significant has been found. In any event, your Home Office experience will have made you cognizant of the rules of disclosure - the defence is entitled to all evidence and intelligence unless it is particularly sensitive in which case you must make your case for witholding the information in front of a Crown Court Judge. There is NO WAY that a Judge would agree to "intelligence" from a psychic being witheld.

UK Police do not solicit the assistance of Psychics. If, during a Criminal enquiry someone contacts the Police stating that they have information pertinent to that Crime, then the Police are duty bound to follow up that information. Experience tells me that whenever there is a high-profile enquiry we get deluged with calls from every wacko, delusional nutter and no-lifer who wants to make a name for themselves amongst the honest well meaning call. An astonishing amount of time gets wasted on the dubious claims because everthing HAS to be followed up

In relation the the article in the Police Federation magazine. The majority of articles are written by serving and former Police officers. The views expressed in those articles do not necessarily reflect the views of the Police Federation. The murder referred to in the article was solved, but in no way did the intervention of the psychic assist in solving that crime. The psychic lived on the same estate as the victim, within in walking distance in fact. The information from the psychic would have been far more impressive if there had been some distance between the psychic and the scene. It would have been more impressive if the psychic had been able to repeat her psychic crime solving abilities on another case, I can find no record of her doing so. The offender was in fact the main suspect from the start, mainly due to the fact that he was a lover of the victim and NOT due to any intervention of the psychic.

UK Police officers are (sadly) not trained in critical thinking and the art of detecting cold/warm/hot reading or any of the other techniques used by "psychics". The officer who wrote the article therefore did not have sufficient "tools" available to detect fraud if indeed that was the case in respect of the "psychic".



This is a shocking distortion of the truth. It is more accurate to say that "mediums use the Police to enhance their reputation"
I cannot conceive of any situation where the UK police will use a psychic to guide their decision making process.

I hope this clears up a few misapprehensions that you have.

Best Wishes

Stumpy

Thank you for this excellent and informative post. Unfortunately it will make little difference to Luci. Last time this topic was raised a poster called Hannibal, a serving officer of many years experience who was even prepared to reveal his ID number (my term not his so excuse me if I got the wrong term) to prove that he was genuine.

That's when Luci posted the stuff about 12 years work with the home office.

Hannibal's experience matches yours. As does the e-mail from Scotland Yard.

But still Luci clings to the article in the Police Federation magazine. And she will continue to do so. Not matter how often it is debunked.

[SteveGrenard]

Ex UK Police Officer Stumpy makes a number of factual errors. This