The concept of heaven

[Wile E. Coyote]

I have a real problem with the concept of heaven. I can see the "need" for it on a personal level, because life without heaven is kind of like the meager entree at an expensive restaurant: it leaves you thinking, "This is it?".

However, there are too many contradictions about heaven to believe that it exists. For example, according to Christianity, one need only believe in Jesus-as-Messiah to have everlasting life. Now, if I was Christian and a few of my loved ones were not, then, conceivably, I would go to heaven and they would go someplace else, or nowhere. But they are my loved ones, so how could it be heaven without them?

Also, I find it ironic that some of the very things that would prevent you from getting into heaven (sex before marriage, homosexuality, etc.) are some of the things you might be inclined to think would make heaven worth it.

Lastly, I cannot think of one thing, or even many things, that could occupy my attention for eternity. Even hanging out as a ghost in the college girl's locker room would get old after a while (not to mention the creepiness of the thought that ghosts are doing just that right now).

Either way, I think I am covered. That is, I have a free ticket to heaven, no matter what I do, as long as my wife still wants me around. She needs to believe in heaven, and she says it wouldn't be heaven without me, so I'm in!

Not that I believe such a thing even exists.

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by tjwojo
I have a real problem with the concept of heaven. I can see the "need" for it on a personal level, because life without heaven is kind of like the meager entree at an expensive restaurant: it leaves you thinking, "This is it?".

However, there are too many contradictions about heaven to believe that it exists. For example, according to Christianity, one need only believe in Jesus-as-Messiah to have everlasting life. Now, if I was Christian and a few of my loved ones were not, then, conceivably, I would go to heaven and they would go someplace else, or nowhere. But they are my loved ones, so how could it be heaven without them?

Also, I find it ironic that some of the very things that would prevent you from getting into heaven (sex before marriage, homosexuality, etc.) are some of the things you might be inclined to think would make heaven worth it.



In that case belief in some place exactly like Heaven but without the baggage of Christian beliefs.



Lastly, I cannot think of one thing, or even many things, that could occupy my attention for eternity. Even hanging out as a ghost in the college girl's locker room would get old after a while (not to mention the creepiness of the thought that ghosts are doing just that right now).


I strongly suspect that the mode of existence in an afterlife will be somewhat different from our present existence. For a kick off you would have no desire to hang arouind in college girl's locker rooms unless you believe the disembodied self can be said to have a gender? Also I suspect we would exist atemporally in any afterlife existence. Boredom I assume is only manifested through experiencing the passage of time.

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by tjwojo
I have a real problem with the concept of heaven. I can see the "need" for it on a personal level, because life without heaven is kind of like the meager entree at an expensive restaurant: it leaves you thinking, "This is it?".

Get out and LIVE YOUR LIFE! Make it worthwhile.

[Refus de Sejour]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

Get out and LIVE YOUR LIFE! Make it worthwhile.

That's right! Hang out in those locker rooms FOR REAL!:eek:

[Wile E. Coyote]

Perhaps it is because I was hanging out in girls' locker rooms for real that I cannot get out and live life. (Just kidding, of course).

By saying "This is it?", I meant to imply that, in the grand scheme of infinity, 70 years is pretty short. And here I am stuck on this little old planet.

[Wile E. Coyote]

Originally posted by Interesting Ian

Also I suspect we would exist atemporally in any afterlife existence. Boredom I assume is only manifested through experiencing the passage of time.

This sounds more like the oblivion defined by the absence of heaven. One cannot have consciousness without the passage of time, and to postulate that our lack of knowledge in this area makes it possible is the same as making things up.

If concepts have to be invented in order to make heaven seem reasonable, then it can be easily assumed that others have done it before, even to the point of actually making it up in the first place.

In that case belief in some place exactly like Heaven but without the baggage of Christian beliefs.

I would like to hear some of the alternatives, if you know of any off-hand. (Seriously)

[Yahzi]

In the Muslim heaven, the children never get older. Islamic philosophers were sophisticated enough to understand that perfect happiness requires the death of time.

The most reasonable description of Xian heaven I have ever heard is that it is living in the presence of God. As if he were your neighbor, and he really liked you. This implies have all your problems solved, but more importantly it implies having all your questions answered. No more mystery: you can just go next door and ask why mosquitos exist. This is quite close to the concept of Nirvana: complete understanding.

In this view, hell is merely living without God's immediate prescence.

Now if only you got multiple chances, we could morph Xianity into Bhuddism and vice versa.

[Wile E. Coyote]

Originally posted by Yahzi
In this view, hell is merely living without God's immediate prescence.


So, then, life is like the standard version of software with support options, but no one ever answers the phone. Heaven is like the professional version with full support. And Hell is the beta-version from a company that went out of business ten years ago.

Also, from this view, we are all living in Hell right now.

Thanks for the information.

[Akots]

Why is it that fetuses in the womb never wonder what the afterwomb is like? What happens to them after they are born? Surely all their problems will be solved, and they will have the answers to all their questions. Cause I mean, jeez... after the womb, what else is there but an eternal life of bliss?

Huh...? Fetuses can't comprehend the nature of their "next world?" Well that's just silly. God loves us, so as soon as a fetus finally "crosses over," it's endowed with all the knowledge of the universe, becomes immortal, is forgiven of sins commited in the womb, and gains the presence of god.

Duh.

[c4ts]

Heaven is a wonderful concept. If only it were true.

[Akots]

This I gotta hear... why isn't it?

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Akots
This I gotta hear... why isn't it?
Because if heaven existed, there would be some evidence of it. But all we have is a bunch of conflicting scenarios, none of which have evidence.

Yeah, it could exist, but in the abscence of evidence, you don't know what it's like. Heaven could be awful. It could be wonderful. It could be non-existant. How can you tell?

[Akots]

Originally posted by Tricky

Because if heaven existed, there would be some evidence of it. But all we have is a bunch of conflicting scenarios, none of which have evidence.

Yeah, it could exist, but in the abscence of evidence, you don't know what it's like. Heaven could be awful. It could be wonderful. It could be non-existant. How can you tell?

I see no reason to assume that simply because our limited senses are unable to percieve an "afterlife," we can dismiss it as impossible. Science exists purely because of the desire to learn new things, and to continually refine the knowledge we've already accumulated... why COULDN'T something exist in the universe that we have no way of confirming, or finding evidence for? if everything in the universe can be examined, then that suggests that either 1) humans have the potential to become omniscient, or 2) the universe was created for our examination, and therefore, things we couldn't find evidence for are unnessecary. Both things involve some kind of God-image; either omniscience, or intelligent design.

I fully agree with your above statement... we have no way of knowing what heaven what it is like. The idea that a non-corporeal existance could be defined in corporeal terms is ludicrous, and it continually infuriates me to hear people proclaim their own little defenition of heaven or hell. My only defenition of "heaven" is "what comes to pass when one's soul is seperated from their body." If there were no souls, we would have no need whatsoever of awareness, or presence of mind. And even if we were trapped into the destiny of TLOP, why would we have any need to view the events around us? Observation would be irellivent.

And what if free will IS just an illusion? Why need an illusion at all? Machines need no such things, and even illusions are percieved, however erroneously.

I'm sorry, but i cannot accept the blind belief that nothing exists beyond this world, simply because of a stubborn refusal to accept the possability that not all of this universe can be defined by a human mind. But the important point i am trying to make is that I do not know what heaven would be like, as a personal experience. i know not what awaits. If the afterlife truly is oblivion, or a literal lake of molten rock, then so be it... that will be heaven. Though I sincerely doubt with all my heart that it could ever be described with physical terms.

Strangely, i think we agree more than we disagree... I believe there is a heavan, but I also believe that it is so vastly removed from our current world that any attempt to define or contact it would be utterly, completely impossible. The lack of evidence is overwhelming; but this is healthy... better to be concerned with the real world, while we still have time left.



There is one counter argument for the lack of evidence of Heaven... if we had evidence of a place where physical pain and limitation has no meaning, then people would be slitting their throats by the millions to get there. Kind of defeats the purpose of having a corporeal stage of life, doesn't it?

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by tjwojo
Originally posted by Interesting Ian

Also I suspect we would exist atemporally in any afterlife existence. Boredom I assume is only manifested through experiencing the passage of time.
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This sounds more like the oblivion defined by the absence of heaven. One cannot have consciousness without the passage of time,



Well you say this but how can you be sure? Impossible for us to conceive of it perhaps but this needn't imply it's impossible. Also I would mention that people who undergo "near-death experiences", and enter into a supposed otherworldly realm, report being in a timeless state, especially whilst undergoing the life review.


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In that case belief in some place exactly like Heaven but without the baggage of Christian beliefs.
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I would like to hear some of the alternatives, if you know of any off-hand. (Seriously)


The alternative is not being a Christian, or maybe not subscribing to any religion whatsoever, and still entering a otherworldly realm after death, which is of a sufficiently pleasureable nature that the label of "heaven" may be appropriate. Bear in mind that NDE'ers, who are (or at least were) atheists, are just as likely to enter a pleasant otherworldly realm as Christians. There is just a slightly differing interpretation of particular elements of their experience such as describing the being encountered prior to entering the otherworldly realm as a "being of light" rather than "Jesus" as the Christian would so describe the being.

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why COULDN'T something exist in the universe that we have no way of confirming, or finding evidence for?
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We could, but most people dismiss it as impossible because it would upset the status quo too much.



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There is one counter argument for the lack of evidence of Heaven... if we had evidence of a place where physical pain and limitation has no meaning, then people would be slitting their throats by the millions to get there. Kind of defeats the purpose of having a corporeal stage of life, doesn't it?
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I don't think that follows at all. Just because there is a heaven if there is a heaven, doesn't mean that one doesn't enjoy and value this life.

[Yahzi]

Whodini
We could, but most people dismiss it as impossible because it would upset the status quo too much.
No, actually, they dismiss it because it wouldn't upset the status quo at all.

That's pretty much the problem: the existance or non-existance of a completely inaccessible heaven has no impact at all on the status quo. How could it? If it could impact us, it wouldn't be completely inaccessible.

Akots
There is one counter argument for the lack of evidence of Heaven...
Haha! I had a long and fruitless battle over this, wherein economics was used to demonstrate that "1 billion years in hell followed by eternity in heaven" is equal to "eternity in heaven," so people have no rational reason to choose either of those possibilities over the other.

It is obviously true that people act on expectations. If you think working harder will get you a raise, you tend to work harder now, not later. However, most people do not expect to go to heaven, no matter how much they profess it exists. It's like a lottery ticket: they know somebody wins, but they're not so sure they will win. Do you know anyone that has won the lottery? Yet you don't doubt that people do; you don't think it's just a big scam and they keep all the money and invent pretend winners to fool you. So why not have the same attitude towards heaven?

I tried to argue that this attitude was more properly described as "hope" than "belief," but since Xians wear their seatbelts more than the general population, I am obviously wrong.

There are good reasons for not killing yourself to get to heaven, but those reasons revolve around whether or not you'll get in. Since the same book that is used to prove the existance of heaven also assures you of entry, it does seem a little odd that people doubt one proposition but not another. Still, it is not inherently unreasonable to believe in heaven and also doubt you'll go there. It is unreasonable to believe in heave, believe God is perfect justice and mercy and love, and still believe you won't go to heaven, but that's a different argument.

[AP's sock puppet]

Once upon a time, they told us that Heaven was a real place where your body went when you died.

The bit about your body going there was a lie, obviously atoms from your decayed body return to the biosphere and are re-used in other bodies.

The bit about it being a real place was a lie. It used to be under the ground, or up in the clouds, but now we can go to those places and see that Heaven is not there.

So now they say: yes, those parts were lies, but the remaining part, the part it is absolutely impossible for you to falsify,

that part is not a lie.

Uh-huh.

[sorgoth]

If there were no souls, we would have no need whatsoever of awareness, or presence of mind. And even if we were trapped into the destiny of TLOP, why would we have any need to view the events around us? Observation would be irellivent.


Why wouldn't we have a need? Seems to me that evolution would get to awareness eventually, since it seems to work,yknow? Same reason for the nexxt question.
Observation IS relevant, because it helps survival, and thus, evolution ect ect.




Look, heaven would be nice, but so would me having control over time and all matter. But you know what? There is NO proof of either. Now, you aren't saying that me having ultimate power has equal chances of existing as a heaven. Since I have control over matter, I could just make you think what I want, therefore there would be no way for you to prove I'm not omnipotent. But that doesn't make it a 'good chance' of happening.

[Elektrix]

Just to add to this.......in Judaism, there isn't much of an attempt made to define the afterlife. There's a vague concept of eternal life, but most of the religion is centered around focusing on leading a good life in this world for the primary purpose of having a good life (as opposed to leading a good life in order to get into heaven or avoid some sort of hell). The basic idea seems to be that there is some sort of afterlife, but it's beyond our comprehension, so it isn't really discussed in any detail.

-Elektrix

[SortingItAllOut]

Originally posted by tjwojo
I have a real problem with the concept of heaven. I can see the "need" for it on a personal level, because life without heaven is kind of like the meager entree at an expensive restaurant: it leaves you thinking, "This is it?".


Hi tjwojo,

I wonder, why would it make you think that? Isn't life just wonderous as it is? There is lots that I don't understand that I'd like to learn. Learning is neat. I've seen hundreds of beautiful sunrises and sunsets, experienced the birth of my children, watched them grow and taught them to appreciate how amazing this "less than perfect" world is. I've had fascinating conversations with people, read thought-provoking books, listened to some of the most moving musical performances, eaten countless homecooked meals with my family and friends, and not once have I felt cheated. If there is anything after I die that compares to this life - bonus! Otherwise, I will be quite satisfied.

Originally posted by tjwojo
However, there are too many contradictions about heaven to believe that it exists. For example, according to Christianity, one need only believe in Jesus-as-Messiah to have everlasting life. Now, if I was Christian and a few of my loved ones were not, then, conceivably, I would go to heaven and they would go someplace else, or nowhere. But they are my loved ones, so how could it be heaven without them?


Curiouser and curiouser... I've had it "explained" to me that there are "no tears in heaven" and that "we" wouldn't know that our loved ones were "burning in the eternal flames of hell". So evidently, our memories of loved ones lost (due to their sinful nature and unwillingness to "accept the gift of salvation") are either wiped clean, or we just won't give a rip about them because we'll be too busy "singing praises to God". That seems a bit problematic to me, but then I am only a mere mortal trying to sort all this stuff out with my peabrain. I'm not saying it definitely isn't true but...


Originally posted by tjwojo
Also, I find it ironic that some of the very things that would prevent you from getting into heaven (sex before marriage, homosexuality, etc.) are some of the things you might be inclined to think would make heaven worth it.


Explain.:confused:


Originally posted by tjwojo
Lastly, I cannot think of one thing, or even many things, that could occupy my attention for eternity.

Trying to count until you reach infinity - that would keep you busy.

Reading Moby Dick and War and Peace alone would probably take a couple hundred years at the rate I read. And then there are all the episodes of The Simpsons I have missed while watching "The Wiggles" and "Out of the Box" with my children.


Take care,
Sort

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Once upon a time, they told us that Heaven was a real place where your body went when you died.
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Soul or body?


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It used to be under the ground, or up in the clouds, but now we can go to those places and see that Heaven is not there.
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Maybe. Or it could have been that people back then had no other words to describe Heaven and Hell. -just look at how they described things like comets, natural disasters, diseases, etc.

[kedo1981]

Only total one-ness with “THE GOD” would be a true heaven, not the childish Christian notion of jewels and crowns and fruit without peels (I heard preacher man say that once as a kid) and mansions.

[Wile E. Coyote]

Originally posted by SortingItAllOut

I wonder, why would it make you think that? Isn't life just wonderous as it is?


Yes, life is wonderful ... and short. There is so much to see and experience, that when check-out time comes, you would probably wish you had eternity to experience it all. Of course, you can probably only see so many sunrises or galactic collisions before it all becomes humdrum.

Originally posted by SortingItAllOut

Curiouser and curiouser... I've had it "explained" to me that there are "no tears in heaven" and that "we" wouldn't know that our loved ones were "burning in the eternal flames of hell". So evidently, our memories of loved ones lost (due to their sinful nature and unwillingness to "accept the gift of salvation") are either wiped clean, or we just won't give a rip about them because we'll be too busy "singing praises to God". That seems a bit problematic to me, but then I am only a mere mortal trying to sort all this stuff out with my peabrain. I'm not saying it definitely isn't true but...


Well, the best things in life are the people with whom we go through it. Forgetting about the people you loved is equivalent to forgetting about the life you lived. As far as "singing praises to a god", I would not consider an eternity in a church service to be heaven. Quite the opposite, actually.

Originally posted by SortingItAllOut

Explain.:confused:


A lot of the things that are considered sins by various religions are things that humans desire to do by nature. Some of these things are not harmful to anyone, but they are still considered sins. These are the things a lot of people would do all the time when they went to heaven. Why is it sinful on earth, but not in heaven (Like homosexuality and polygamy to name a couple)?

[Vortex]

Originally posted by tjwojo
I have a real problem with the concept of heaven. I can see the "need" for it on a personal level,

The "need" for the concept of heaven was created when the ancient hominid reached self awareness and his realization that his own demise was now a given. In order to soothe his fear of his imminent death, the hominid created a hereafter. Unfortunately, creating the heaven in his head never brought the thing into existence.

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... I cannot think of one thing, or even many things, that could occupy my attention for eternity.
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Oh, so therefore, because you can't comprehend a heaven place, it doesn't exist?

[Tom Head]

Whenever folks debate the afterlife, I think about Dr. McCoy and the transporter on Star Trek.

Well, you know--all that concern about his "atoms getting scattered." Very realistic concern from the standpoint of personal subjectivity, since the transporter doesn't really transport matter--it annihilates and replicates it. So when you stepped on to a transporter, it would theoretically be fade-to-black, and...*zap*...the person who came out on the other side would be a replica and not, uhm, the real McCoy.

Now, on Star Trek, they always laughed at good ol' McCoy.

As far as subjectivity goes, I see three options:

(1) Bertrand Russell was right and it's a temporal phenomenon, in which case we can relax--life is a constant process of annihilation and we'll all check out long before our bodies actually die.

(2) Subjectivity is pure illusion ("There's nothing there to die." -- S. Blackmore), which is good news from a metaphysical standpoint and even better news from a tax standpoint.

(3) There's some very important aspect of subjectivity (not just consciousness, but subjectivity) that we, the human race, just don't grok yet. And if that's the case, there's no reason to assume that this subjectivity dies with the brain.

I'll take door #3, Monty--but then I'm a theist, so that's exactly what you'd expect me to say. And I'll confess to a certain amount of doubt. Doubt about the afterlife can be a very good thing. It keeps us from offing ourselves whenever we get a hangnail.


Cheers,

[evildave]

Originally posted by Whodini
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... I cannot think of one thing, or even many things, that could occupy my attention for eternity.
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Oh, so therefore, because you can't comprehend a heaven place, it doesn't exist?

Perhaps just that if there is a Heaven, it might not be all that it's cracked up to be.

Almost certainly, it's not exactly as anybody has represented it.

A bit of caveat emptor.

Is the evangelist selling you a piece of heaven, or some Florida real estate?

And if there is an afterlife, with no connection at all to the "real world", how do you get back a life that's been wasted on believing in crackpot lies, and (even worse) trying to get other people to believe in them? Maybe you really did need to be buried with pennies on your eyes, after all.