Questions about Latent Infections/Conditions?

[Kumar]

Hello all,

We have some details on following links about latent stages of dideases & disorders:-

Latent infections (http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/l/latent_infections/intro.htm): Various infectious diseases cause latent infections, where there is the "potential" to get symptoms, and become infected, but the person has not yet. Examples are latent TB and latent syphilis. The symptom-free stage of HIV prior to AIDS is sometimes called latent HIV. Latent infections are "hidden" or "silent" and may or may not cause symptoms again after the initial acute episode. Some infectious microbes, usually viruses, can "wake up" and become active again, sometimes off and on for months or years, and cause symptoms.

There are some:-

Carrier conditions (http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/c/carrier_conditions/basics.htm): A condition where a person is symptom-free despite a genetic or infectious disease.

Now I want to understand:-

1. Who is responsible for getting the latent conditions--our weakened immunity or our body system or 'causing agent, to exist & develop( some what incubation period)?

2. Can a person with latent stage get active stage as a direction towards cure? Somewhat bringing the causing agents to be exposed for removing/killing them?

3. Why body's immune responces/system allow these ' causing agents' to survive in latency?

4. Whether antibiotics/medications clear the infections in full or supress it alike another latent condition?

5. Whether IRON imbalances, pale/jaundiced skin etc. are indication of surriviving some latency in body? I mean how these are related to each other--latency & IRON?

6. Whether pre-metastatis cancer stage or begin tumor are latent stages of cancer?

7. Can all chronic, progressive but "asymptomatic" or "yet inactive" conditions be thougt as "latent conditions" or not?


There were some discussions, where "progressive & asymptomatic" conditions were differenciated with latent conditions.

What about these, can't all chronic or progressive conditions be thougt as "latent"?

I can't say, whether this latency concept is seeded & dormant in mass people due to current lifestyle & environment which sometimes may bloom in near future....?:eek:

You may contribute some thoughts to it.

Best wishes.

[Deetee]

My theory is that there is a physiological silicea deficiency involved in all these manifestations.
Either that or its cancer spreading its legs again.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Deetee
My theory is that there is a physiological silicea deficiency involved in all these manifestations.
Either that or its cancer spreading its legs again.

Welcome. How? Can you explain your theory about it?

Some relevant understanding:-

Iron is an oxidant as well as a nutrient for invading microbial and neoplastic cells. Excessive iron in specific tissues and cells (iron loading) promotes development of infection, neoplasia, cardiomyopathy, arthropathy, and various endocrine and possibly neurodegenerative disorders. To contain and detoxify the metal, hosts have evolved an iron withholding defense system, but the system can be compromised by numerous factors. An array of behavioral, medical, and immunologic methods are in place or in development to strengthen iron withholding. Routine screening for iron loading could provide valuable information in epidemiologic, diagnostic, prophylactic, and therapeutic studies of emerging infectious diseases.

Iron Withholding Defense System
Hosts use several mechanisms (Table 3) to withhold iron from invading microbial and neoplastic cells: stationing of potent iron binding proteins at sites of impending microbial invasion; lowering iron levels in body fluids, diseased tissues, and invaded cells during invasion; and synthesizing immunoglobulins to the iron acquisition antigens of microbes.
Iron Loading and Disease Surveillance (http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol5no3/weinberg.htm)

[jambo372]

It depends. Sometimes it can be the microbe evading the immune response eg you could have chickenpox when you're five years old & recover but the varicella doesn't go away - it travels to the roots of nerve cells along the spinal cord. It remains inactive for decades but can re-activate itself when the immune system is weak and travel along the nerve cells causing pain and inflammation ( Shingles ).

In TB Mycobacterium tuberculosis can remain inactive for years at the infected site and cause no symptoms but may start multiplying and causing disease when the immune system is weak. In syphilis Treponema pallidum causes 2 initial stages of infection followed by a latent period in which the organism causes no symptoms and the victim ceases to be infectious, if no treatment is given a third of these will go on to develop widespread syphilis. In latent syphilis pregnant women can still pass infection on to their baby leading to stillbirth or the child being born with congenital syphilis.

In carriers of infectious disease the victims themselves carry the organism with no symptoms but can pass the disease onto others, they usually have had an initial infection from which they recover eg in Typhoid fever, the ill person may recover but Salmonella typhi remain in their gall bladder where they multiply to large numbers and are excreted in the urine and faeces - this can lead to contammination of the person and they can contamminate food and drink which if consumed by another will cause disease. A famous example of this was a notorious Irish cook working in New York named Mary Mallon dubbed 'Typhoid Mary' who infected and killed hundreds of people. The typhoid organism actually lives within the phagocytic cells designed to protect from infection and hence go unrecognised by the immune system.

In either case the microbe survives because it is unrecognised by the immune system and hence goes unattacked by it. So it's not really a case of 'allowance', the causative organism basically just manages to 'hide' from an immune respone.

As for moving from latent stage to active stage during cure ... either the patient remains in the latent stage or comes out of this into active illness which may be persistent and will ultimately end in either recovery or death. Depending on the condition treatment during the latent period may or may not prevent active illness from developing altogether and may cure the infection.

As for medication it depends on the infecting organism, the patient and the drug(s). Sometimes drug treatment in the latent period will result in complete cure eg a course of antibiotics early on in latent syphilis usually results in complete cure. In latent HIV during pregnancy triple anti-retroviral treatment ( often Zidovudine with 2 other drugs ) is usually given as although it will not prevent active infecion occuring in the mother, it may prevent HIV infection in the unborn child.

In other cases the efficacy of drug intervention is variable or ineffective. eg Anti-virals like Acyclovir only suppress Varicella zoster and are only effective if given in the early stages of shingles because later on most of the damage has already been done. It may prevent an attack of shingles if taken shortly before it's onset but this is generally unpredictable. Some organisms in latent infection/carrier states are based intracellularly and drugs have difficulty reaching them. In carriers of Typhoid for instance, the effect of drug treatment varies ie certain bacteriostatic antibiotics may be useful in treatment of active typhoid infection but don't kill the organism - they just stop it from multiplying, therefore they won't eradicate the carrier state and may, in some cases, prolong it. Bacteriocidal antibiotics ( Ciprofloxacin or Ampicillin is usually used ) actually kill the Salmonellae and hence may eradicate the typhoid carrier state if taken continuously in appropriate dosages over a reasonably long period of time ( 4-6 weeks ),longer than that used in treatment of active infection (usually a fortnight), they aren't always successful and sometimes cholecystectomy is needed in addition to drug treatment.

I can't say I know anything about latent cancer or the connection between latent conditions and iron.

[Kumar]

jambo372
Thanks for reply in detail.

It depends. Sometimes it can be the microbe evading the immune response eg you could have chickenpox when you're five years old & recover but the varicella doesn't go away - it travels to the roots of nerve cells along the spinal cord. It remains inactive for decades but can re-activate itself when the immune system is weak and travel along the nerve cells causing pain and inflammation ( Shingles ).

In TB Mycobacterium tuberculosis can remain inactive for years at the infected site and cause no symptoms but may start multiplying and causing disease when the immune system is weak. In syphilis Treponema pallidum causes 2 initial stages of infection followed by a latent period in which the organism causes no symptoms and the victim ceases to be infectious, if no treatment is given a third of these will go on to develop widespread syphilis. In latent syphilis pregnant women can still pass infection on to their baby leading to stillbirth or the child being born with congenital syphilis.

Do all of this tell that, it is capcicy & capability of microbe evading the immune response not the weakness of immune system to go any infection in latent stage? Do the microbes remain latent, willingly, to multiply & waiting a suitable condition of weakened immunity(pls look there are two aspects, one sufficient multiplications & other waiting for weakend immunity)? How then immune system act on microbes in latency to stop their overgrowth if microbe evading the immune response ?

In carriers of infectious disease the victims themselves carry the organism with no symptoms but can pass the disease onto others, they usually have had an initial infection from which they recover eg in Typhoid fever, the ill person may recover but Salmonella typhi remain in their gall bladder where they multiply to large numbers and are excreted in the urine and faeces - this can lead to contammination of the person and they can contamminate food and drink which if consumed by another will cause disease. A famous example of this was a notorious Irish cook working in New York named Mary Mallon dubbed 'Typhoid Mary' who infected and killed hundreds of people. The typhoid organism actually lives within the phagocytic cells designed to protect from infection and hence go unrecognised by the immune system.
In either case the microbe survives because it is unrecognised by the immune system and hence goes unattacked by it. So it's not really a case of 'allowance', the causative organism basically just manages to 'hide' from an immune respone.


Does it tell that, on initial infection, immunity kill/remove some microbes but some evade the immune response & hide or go to latent stage? How some microbes could evade the immune response & hide, but still later their growth is controlled by immune system?


As for moving from latent stage to active stage during cure ... either the patient remains in the latent stage or comes out of this into active illness which may be persistent and will ultimately end in either recovery or death. Depending on the condition treatment during the latent period may or may not prevent active illness from developing altogether and may cure the infection.

As for medication it depends on the infecting organism, the patient and the drug(s). Sometimes drug treatment in the latent period will result in complete cure eg a course of antibiotics early on in latent syphilis usually results in complete cure. In latent HIV during pregnancy triple anti-retroviral treatment ( often Zidovudine with 2 other drugs ) is usually given as although it will not prevent active infecion occuring in the mother, it may prevent HIV infection in the unborn child.

If hiding of microbe as in latent condition, is by wish & capability of microbes itself, how treatment can effect them in their latency? Should we take it that our immune system can't kill/remove but treatment can as you indicated in next para?

In other cases the efficacy of drug intervention is variable or ineffective. eg Anti-virals like Acyclovir only suppress Varicella zoster and are only effective if given in the early stages of shingles because later on most of the damage has already been done. It may prevent an attack of shingles if taken shortly before it's onset but this is generally unpredictable. Some organisms in latent infection/carrier states are based intracellularly and drugs have difficulty reaching them. In carriers of Typhoid for instance, the effect of drug treatment varies ie certain bacteriostatic antibiotics may be useful in treatment of active typhoid infection but don't kill the organism - they just stop it from multiplying, therefore they won't eradicate the carrier state and may, in some cases, prolong it. Bacteriocidal antibiotics ( Ciprofloxacin or Ampicillin is usually used ) actually kill the Salmonellae and hence may eradicate the typhoid carrier state if taken continuously in appropriate dosages over a reasonably long period of time ( 4-6 weeks ),longer than that used in treatment of active infection (usually a fortnight), they aren't always successful and sometimes cholecystectomy is needed in addition to drug treatment./b]

Now, can it be thought, when a person is having some latent infection, latent TB for instance, if expose to him with better health environments & lifestyle & so improve his immune power OR take treatment during latency--can experiance inititial activations type symptoms followed by cure? In other sense, can there be two type of activation from latency- for cure & for spread?[b]

[b]I can't say I know anything about latent cancer or the connection between latent conditions and iron.

I think, it is indicated(as on link I provided) that host cut off iron supply (as in tumors) to starve evading microbes/cancer cells, which needs iron for survival/multiplication?

CANCER Iron can reactivate a latent infection or tumour. In one experiment they put rats on severely restricted low calorie diets and these starved animals lived a lot longer than those on normal diets. The iron content of the food was subsequently identified as the major life-shortening factor rather than calories. In a study in Carcinogenesis, 1991, three groups of rats were given iron deficient, regular or excess iron diets, then injected with a carcinogen. The rats on the low iron diet developed a lower rate of cancer, and the rats on the elevated iron diet had higher rates of cancer. When the iron in their diet was removed, their cancer rate decreased. Iron feeds cancer cells and causes them to metastasize. Many studies have shown that up to 88% of metastasized breast cancer patients have elevated serum ferritin. Cancerous breasts have three times as much iron as normal breasts.

Excessive copper is often involved in cancer and may be a risk factor in estrogen-dependent cancers. Research has shown that there is a 72% increase in the copper content of malignant tumours of the ovary, uterus and cervix (Cancer, Sep 1983). Other studies have shown similar high copper contents in breast cancers. Estrogen increases copper absorption, causing your copper levels to rise. This may occur when you take birth control pills or hormone replacement therapy (Journal of Fertility and Sterility, Nov 1979).

INFECTIONS Dr. Randal Lauffer of Harvard University and other experts believe that mild iron deficiency may be beneficial in some disease states. People who are malnourished may be more resistant to infectious diseases than well-nourished people. I[b]t has been noted in times of famine that infectious illnesses such as tuberculosis and malaria are suppressed during starvation and reactivated when refeeding programs are instituted. They began testing iron levels and found that when iron levels rose, infections increased.
http://www.consumerhealth.org/articles/display.cfm?ID=19990303204921

It is to be understood,whether iron defficiancy, leading to weakening of immunity or iron overload(may be due to higher gastric acid secretion) laeading to providing food for pathogens & so increase in infection. Whether body/immune system causes anaemic condition/pale/jaundiced skin, jaundice etc. due to evading infections , to cut off their food supply OR evading microbes rob body's iron for their food?

[ReFLeX]

Kumar, your use of the ampersand (&) is frustrating to read and interferes with the ease of understanding your ideas. Typing the word 'and' requires a single extra keystroke (a less awkward one at that) and would be one step on the way to better expression.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by ReFLeX
Kumar, your use of the ampersand (&) is frustrating to read and interferes with the ease of understanding your ideas. Typing the word 'and' requires a single extra keystroke (a less awkward one at that) and would be one step on the way to better expression.

Ok, I will try and practice it.

[ilk]

Originally posted by Kumar
Ok, I will try and practice it.

No, you will try to practice it.

Just a friendly drive-by grammatical correction. No need to thank me.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by ilk
No, you will try to practice it. No, you will try to practise it. "Practice" is a noun, "practise" is a verb.

Rolfe.

[Zep]

Now let's all try to spell "aluminium"!

[flume]

Originally posted by Rolfe No, you will try to practise it. "Practice" is a noun, "practise" is a verb.

Rolfe. In the USA, "practice" is used both for noun and verb. As I suspect you know. But Kumar might not.

[Kumar]

Under these cosiderations, I think, initial stage of any infection may lead to inflmatory type condition by iron overlaod, to enhance the immunity whereas in latent conditions--withdrawl of iron absorption at specific site & systematic, may be possible, in view of body system to cut off iron supply to infectious pathogens to remove/kill them. Somewhat Encapuling, tumor formings etc. those pathogens, can be for the reason to cut off their iron/nutrients supply & restrict/resist their growth & spread. However, I am not sure whether body system do this, somewhat encapsuling OR evading pathogens create these encapsuling conditions to save themselves from immune responses and wait for the suitable opportunity to be active at some later date, when they can overpower the immune system. ??

Is it right.

[Jeff Corey]

Originally posted by Kumar
Under these cosiderations, I think, initial stage of any infection may lead to inflmatory type condition by iron overlaod, to enhance the immunity whereas in latent conditions--withdrawl of iron absorption at specific site & systematic, may be possible, in view of body system to cut off iron supply to infectious pathogens to remove/kill them. Somewhat Encapuling, tumor formings etc. those pathogens, can be for the reason to cut off their iron/nutrients supply & restrict/resist their growth & spread. However, I am not sure whether body system do this, somewhat encapsuling OR evading pathogens create these encapsuling conditions to save themselves from immune responses and wait for the suitable opportunity to be active at some later date, when they can overpower the immune system. ??

Is it right.
No.

[jambo372]

Originally posted by Jeff Corey
No.

The microbes remain dormant and keep a low profile and aren't noticed by the immune system. They are opportunistic. When the immune system is low often because of another illness eg flu, medications eg cyclosporin or surgery, the microbes may get a foothold and multiply causing the condition to relapse and the latent period to end.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by jambo372
The microbes remain dormant and keep a low profile and aren't noticed by the immune system. They are opportunistic. When the immune system is low often because of another illness eg flu, medications eg cyclosporin or surgery, the microbes may get a foothold and multiply causing the condition to relapse and the latent period to end.

Yes, HIV is becoming another major problem to get these Opportunistic Infections (http://www.aegis.com/topics/oi/index.html).

But in latent stage, who & what causes, the microbes to remain dormant-- evading microbes or our immunity/ defence system? When we use word evading microbes, it looks microbes only create this stiuation, to grow & wait for suitable opportunity so hide in some pokets, where body defence system is unable to locate/recognize/kill them. Is it right?

If so, why & how, these microbes are encapuled & still our defence system check their growth, which also indicates that our defence system still working on thwem, but unable to kill/remove them--so just arrest/encapsule.

But these are bit contradictary, so I want to clear it, here.

BTW, In view of modern life style, environment etc., how much of us may be carrying various latent conditions in our bodies?

One such :eek:;


Although in most cases infection is effectively contained by host immunity, failure to eliminate the “enemy within� means that TB can flare up again if the immune system is weakened. Nearly 2 billion individuals worldwide, including 10 to 15 million in the United States alone, are asymptomatically infected with Mycobacterium tuberculosis. Over the course of a lifetime, 100 to 200 million of these latent infections will reactivate and develop into full-blown TB — an enormous burden of future disease arising from infections that are already established.
http://www.rockefeller.edu/research/abstract.php?id=111&memberId=307&printpage=print

[Anders]

Originally posted by Kumar
Under these cosiderations, I think, initial stage of any infection may lead to inflmatory type condition by iron overlaod, to enhance the immunity whereas in latent conditions--withdrawl of iron absorption at specific site & systematic, may be possible, in view of body system to cut off iron supply to infectious pathogens to remove/kill them. Somewhat Encapuling, tumor formings etc. those pathogens, can be for the reason to cut off their iron/nutrients supply & restrict/resist their growth & spread. However, I am not sure whether body system do this, somewhat encapsuling OR evading pathogens create these encapsuling conditions to save themselves from immune responses and wait for the suitable opportunity to be active at some later date, when they can overpower the immune system. ??

Is it right.
Had you said zinc or calcium ions I would have to look it up, iron?!? Iron is a important part of the respiration system, but not very common in the immune pathways.

So no, kumar, you are wrong.

[ReFLeX]

Originally posted by Kumar
Ok, I will try and practice it. Other criticisms notwithstanding, thank you.
However, since you said this, you typed 'and' once, but '&' seven times...I know you can do better than that.

[jambo372]

Originally posted by Kumar
Yes, HIV is becoming another major problem to get these Opportunistic Infections (http://www.aegis.com/topics/oi/index.html).

But in latent stage, who & what causes, the microbes to remain dormant-- evading microbes or our immunity/ defence system? When we use word evading microbes, it looks microbes only create this stiuation, to grow & wait for suitable opportunity so hide in some pokets, where body defence system is unable to locate/recognize/kill them. Is it right?

If so, why & how, these microbes are encapuled & still our defence system check their growth, which also indicates that our defence system still working on thwem, but unable to kill/remove them--so just arrest/encapsule.

But these are bit contradictary, so I want to clear it, here.

BTW, In view of modern life style, environment etc., how much of us may be carrying various latent conditions in our bodies?

One such :eek:;

The microbes become dormant because they are finding it hard to cope with the immune system - they 'hide' and return later when the immune system is weak because the immune system will find it harder to cope with the infection because it is already weakened.

Syphilis is an example of this. You have sex with someone infected by Treponema pallidum and the infection passes on to you. You go through several stages. In the first a sore forms on the genitalia and occasionally the lymph nodes in the armpit/groin. The sore heals after a month or so. A few months later the second stage begins - the patient develops a bodily rash, ulcers form in the mouth and genitals and there may be a slight fever. The victim is highly infectious at this point. The infection usually subsides now leading onto the latent period, in which the victim ceases to be infectious.

The latent period may last many years, even decades. This may give way to the tertiary stage in which damage to multiple organs can occur. Tumours develop. Symptoms depend on the affected organs.

TB is another example. It takes 3 forms - Primary TB , Re-activated TB and Re-infection TB.

In 90 - 95 % of primary TB cases the immune system suppresses the tubercle bacilli but doesn't actually kill them. The symptoms of primary TB are cough, fever, tiredness, nightsweats and loss of weight. In 5 - 10 % of people who have had a primary TB infection, following a latent period, Mycobacterium tuberculosis becomes 're-activated' and can spread via the bloodstream and lymphatic system to various infection sites within the body.

Lots of people could have latent infections but not know of it. Lots of people also carry organisms which are benign under normal circumstances but can cause infection given a chance.
There are organisms which many people 'carry' but are usually harmless eg just about everybody has E.coli in their bowel, it is harmless here and can even be beneficial because it produces vitamin K, however, the organism can be very dangerous if it reaches other areas in the body - it can cause septicaemia in the bloodstream and UTI in the urinary tract. Most people carry strains of Staphylococcus on the skin, they are harmless here and can be beneficial by fighting off other potentially dangerous organisms but they can be harmful if pushed into a hair follicle via injury as they may cause a boil or cellulitis.

The yeast like fungus, Candida albicans is present in the gut where it is usually harmless but can cause thrush if the flora is imbalanced eg following a course of antibiotics.

Some people carry organisms which are generally harmless to them but can cause illness if they spread to others eg many people carry the bacterium Neisseria meningitidis ( Meningococcus ) in the throat and nasal passages without symptoms. If these organisms spread to others they may cause meningitis &/or septicaemia

Years ago you would have been arrested and put in constant isolation if you were found to carry certain infectious diseases such as Diptheria and Typhoid.

[Kumar]

jambo372

Thanks for detailed explaination.

We should respect a lot to our body or SOMEONE, who handle so many things at a time, and should maintain it as much as possible/practical. But ?????:(

All that you mentioned looks to indicate that it is the capacity & capability of microbes which are able to establish in our body & come out at some suitable environment. Why body's defence system don't/can't kill them at initial stages of infection? Is it due to some weakness of our defence system or some miss in finding/recognizing/killing them? Do all people, who are similarily exposed to any infection get similar infections?