Why is America hated around the world?

[Gem]

And even some Americans (not everyone of course) does not like America.
I am not American, and I have mixed feelings about this country that I now live in.
Why is one of the best, more free, powerful country despited?

Could it be other nations resent your ever present military force?
Could it be that America is hypocrital, having in the past supported many dictatorships (even removing democracies, anyone remember how the Shah in Iran got into place? Supporting Saddam Hussein after The Iranian revolution? The Latin American Dictators?)
The ditching the the UN and other international treaties?
Having dictators/kings as allies who actually support some of our enemies?
The painfully obvious bribing of allies? (Turkey)
The snobbish attitude in foreign policy? (You're with us or you're with them)

And yet despite this, the U.S. is one of the best place to live in. The US has one of the largest middle class (if not the biggest, but I'm not sure). A somewhat fair legal system (shall we say fairer than the one in Saudi Arabia?). People against the war are free to protest unhindered (sure, one or two representatives want to 'lynch' them, but at least it's not the majority.) Freedom of speech, religion, to be able to defend yourself in a court of law. Freedom of insulting your government. (Somewhat controversial)

Let's face it, the USA is the new Roman Empire, the best thing there is on this Earth as a nation, but still with it's flaws.

So again, why is a good thing so controversial and hated?

Gem.

[schplurg]

Search this forum and you will find plenty of people stating their reasons for disliking the USA. This thread will be yet another chance for them to spout off...ahem express their opinions :(

Welcome to the forum (from one newbie to another)
:)

[Supercharts]

When you [country, person] take a stand and make a choice between good vs. evil there are many who challenge you.
Well, we made a choice.
Some will hide and equivocate. Some make definite choices.
I've made my choice. I've made a decision.
We are right and everyone else can go to hell.
I do not seek or care about what other care or think about us. My decision does not rest upon anothers approval.
I am comfortable in my point of view and do not feel complelled to explain or defend it to others.
BooHoo.
Yep! I am arrogant. You can always put me on your "Ignore List". Does that bother me? Not in the least.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Supercharts
When you [country, person] take a stand and make a choice between good vs. evil there are many who challenge you.
Well, we made a choice.
Some will hide and equivocate. Some make definite choices.
I've made my choice. I've made a decision.
We are right and everyone else can go to hell.
I do not seek or care about what other care or think about us. My decision does not rest upon anothers approval.
I am comfortable in my point of view and do not feel complelled to explain or defend it to others.
BooHoo.
Yep! I am arrogant. You can always put me on your "Ignore List". Does that bother me? Not in the least.
Thanks supercharts, thats a pretty good demonstration of one of the reasons.

[Thumper]

We hear a lot about why America is hated across this world. People point out the military dictatorships we've supported in the past. They've pointed out the governments we have undermined and took out. They point out "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" foreign policy we've used over the past several decades. They point out our attitude, our harping on values, our reactionary policies.

I've heard it all before.

We're hated for our strong military when we use it. And for when we don't. We're hated for supporting unpopular governments. And for toppling them. We're hated for ensuring the free-flowing nature of oil. And we'd be hated for not doing so.

We're hated and misunderstood for our freedoms. Personal liberty in America is more important than governmental liberty. We are a nation of immigrants. Of pioneers. Of people who fought across every inch of this continent. We have killed millions of people in our history. We have a soul blacker than an outsider can imagine. We are all the evils of this world. Genocide. Slavery. Discrimination. Lynching.

And yet...

We are also all the beauty in this world. No other nation has come so far so quickly, both in terms of production and in terms of power. No other country reaches out to the world as much as we do. It was the US who started the UN. It was Franklin Roosevelt's brainchild. A worthy, and stronger, successor to the failed League of Nations.

We are a symbol in our own right. For better or for worse, America stands for something. When the Taliban decided to make a statement, they struck at America. They struck at our own symbols of power. Financial. Military.

We are young. We are just 227 years old. This nation did not spring from the mists of time. We were formed in recent history. We have a history, but not a past. This youth keeps us from being held down by our past. Dedicated to an old an fallen empire.

We are powerful. This power comes from inside us. Inside each American is a desire to rise above our selves. To make our life better than it is. To progress. That spirit came to us from our immigrants. They left the old behind to reach for the new. To make themselves better in the process.

We are laws. No other nation on this planet has ever given so much power to its judicial branch. Toqueville wrote that if there is a noble class in America, it is the Bench. We define our relationships with each other based on laws. And based on love.

We are generous. With each other, and abroad. We give more to foreign countries than any other country. Food, clothing, medicine, arms.

We are the Statue of Liberty. Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teaming shores, send these, tempest-tossed to me; I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

We are Jefferson and Washington. Franklin and Paine. We are Madonna and Fonda. Jolie and Sheen. We are free to say what we want in this country. We are free to disagree with the government. We are also free to disagree with the disagree-ers.

We are Hollywood and Video Games. The Music Industry and Britney Spears. We are McDonalds and Wendys. Disneyland. Mickey and Minnie. And Thumper. We are commercialism.

We are choice.

We are freedom.


We are America.

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Warning : this is a POV which contains opinions. The scope of liberty is so great my simple mind and generalizations within this post can not do justice demonsrating how valuable liberty is.

Thumper points out the many things that make the US the envy of many in the world and the things that make the US the source of evil in the minds of many.

I am a Brit, now living in Canada and find myself intrigued by a document : the U.S. Constitution.

Sweden, France, England and United States have had the largest influence on the ideas of personal liberties, defending human dignity, and providing inspiring models of democracies for nations aspiring for self determination.

These four countries provide valuable lessons on what can work for democracies. At the same time they also provide examples of what may go wrong in democracies. If anything, they demonstrate that democracy can not remain static for long, and can not get mired in complacency (occassionally needing a reminder from an outside influence e.g. 9/11).

The U.S. Constitution is a reminder of what liberties these influential democracies wanted to secure for the people.

The U.S. Constitution is threatening to Regimes that are despotic, theocratic, and Static-oriented. They know that people within their influence are tempted by the ideas illustrated so well in the U.S. Constitution. It inspires, it gives hope. The United States, having a presence all over the world, exposes people to the ideas within the document.

The 9/11 incident, despite being so devastating, was a blessing. It shook the US to the core, it reminded people in the U.S. how fortunate they are to have the freedoms secured for them via this document. Osama's network planned an event that was intended to put fear into every American.

The people of United States have an opportunity:

the people can give into the fear (which Osama hopes for) and give their government more powers and allow the erosion of personal liberties

the people can evaluate what the Constitution means and whether the time has come to water it down or to ensure that the liberties it secures are maintained.

The U.S. was attacked for more reasons than I can shake a stick at, but the number one reason for the attack was : The U.S. is the modern representation of an enviable and hated Democratic paradigm.

Again, the generalizations in this POV piece can not do justice to the ideas contained within the Constitution or the ideas that democracies attempt to apply in their laws and policies.
I will be only to happy to accept constructive criticism to expand my understanding of liberty, the Constitution, and putting democracy into practice.

[compjan]

Personally I would love to be able to quantify this "hatred" and get an accurate picture of what "the world" thinks of the U.S. Then maybe we could rationally discuss the issue and figure out how to fix it.

Unfortunately no one really knows what the hell the world thinks of us. How can we say something like "why does everyone hate us" when we have no means of measuring it? There's no way to measure the sum total of human emotion on the planet, nor any objective indication of people's attitudes. Is there some Hate Index for the U.S. that 5 years ago was at 30%, but is now at 90%? All these arguments about how people feel about the U.S. are so subjective, but many act as if they are objective.

Remember that perception is highly illusory and transitory, and extremely inconsistent. People rightly protest the death caused in this war. Those same people weren't protesting the vastly greater carnage of Rwanda a few years ago. Why isn't Russia on everyone's hate list because of the war in Chechnya?

Maybe none of us really know what the world thinks. I'm not going to pretend to.

Compjan

[corplinx]

If we are truly as arrogant as the world thinks, we wouldnt even care that they thought it. Its sure lonely at the top..........

[Tony]

Originally posted by PygmyPlaidGiraffe
Warning : this is a POV which contains opinions. The scope of liberty is so great my simple mind and generalizations within this post can not do justice demonsrating how valuable liberty is.

Thumper points out the many things that make the US the envy of many in the world and the things that make the US the source of evil in the minds of many.

I am a Brit, now living in Canada and find myself intrigued by a document : the U.S. Constitution.

Sweden, France, England and United States have had the largest influence on the ideas of personal liberties, defending human dignity, and providing inspiring models of democracies for nations aspiring for self determination.

These four countries provide valuable lessons on what can work for democracies. At the same time they also provide examples of what may go wrong in democracies. If anything, they demonstrate that democracy can not remain static for long, and can not get mired in complacency (occassionally needing a reminder from an outside influence e.g. 9/11).

The U.S. Constitution is a reminder of what liberties these influential democracies wanted to secure for the people.

The U.S. Constitution is threatening to Regimes that are despotic, theocratic, and Static-oriented. They know that people within their influence are tempted by the ideas illustrated so well in the U.S. Constitution. It inspires, it gives hope. The United States, having a presence all over the world, exposes people to the ideas within the document.

The 9/11 incident, despite being so devastating, was a blessing. It shook the US to the core, it reminded people in the U.S. how fortunate they are to have the freedoms secured for them via this document. Osama's network planned an event that was intended to put fear into every American.

The people of United States have an opportunity:

the people can give into the fear (which Osama hopes for) and give their government more powers and allow the erosion of personal liberties

the people can evaluate what the Constitution means and whether the time has come to water it down or to ensure that the liberties it secures are maintained.

The U.S. was attacked for more reasons than I can shake a stick at, but the number one reason for the attack was : The U.S. is the modern representation of an enviable and hated Democratic paradigm.

Again, the generalizations in this POV piece can not do justice to the ideas contained within the Constitution or the ideas that democracies attempt to apply in their laws and policies.
I will be only to happy to accept constructive criticism to expand my understanding of liberty, the Constitution, and putting democracy into practice.

http://www.forum.scullyspost.com/images/smilies/smilies2.9.03/thumbs%20up.gif I agree. But I have to correct you on one thing, the US isnt a democracy.

[clk]

The US is hated for the same reason that Geraldo is hated.

[Ace_of_Sevens]

In Europe anyway, it's cool to hate the US because the US is powerful/influential. It's great for for indiscriminate anti-establishment types. Alot of the reasons you hear are just rationalizations, thus the contradictions pointed out earlier in this thread.

As far as us tellign peopel what to do, that seems to be the only way things get done. Take a look at the Iraq situation. The UN didn't vote against a US invasion. They refused to vote at all (France's fault, pretty much). Without back-up from the UN, threats don't work, so that left us no choice but to invade. I think that if the UN security council had had a second vote, no matte rhwo it turned out everyone would be in better shape. If they had voted for the invasion, Saddam may have surrendered when he realized the international community wasn't going to help. If they'd voted against, they could have set up some real deadlines and terms which he wouldn't have much choice but to follow.

[003998]

No one likes arrogance, safe one's own.
Seeing the arrogance of US politics is hard to swallow. I will not go into detail, but since Bush took over presidency this has become very bad. It`s "America first", "for us or against us", "good and evil".
That's sad, but no tragedy. I could live with a country that believes to be a shining star while being quite the contrary. But there is one thing that really gets to me and stirs up hatred against people like Supercharts or Thumper. It`s the fact that because of their kind`s foolishness a President got elected and is now suported who is killing people for his questionable goals.
I've experienced a lot of woe lately. Friends and family have died. I know the despair that comes with the deaths of loved ones. And I can't find the words to damn someone who willingly brings this kind of despair over humans.
There was this story about the rescued American soldier. And one of this board said he hoped she killed many Iraqis before being captured. I ask: "Why?". They are not different from you or me. They are brothers, husbands, fathers.
There is great tragedy happening in Iraq and everytime I see someone shouting: "Yeah, free men are kicking arse." or "We are the good guys and they are evil.", I feel like throwing up.

It saddens me no end that the sensible voices in America seem to be so few and those that try to make themselves heard get called "un-patriotic".
This should be no reason to hate the entire population of America and I am very sure most of the Europeans and Arabs would not be aggresive towards an American, if they met one. But everytime I see the pictures of Iraqi civilians crying, I get this feeling that whoever caused this should pay.

Just one last comment. There have been around 100 casualties on "allied" forces up to now. That is only a fraction of Iraqi casualties, civilians and soldiers alike.
I have not yet seen Americans express their support to the people of Iraq. It only seems to be bad if Americans die.

[Supercharts]

Originally posted by PygmyPlaidGiraffe
Warning : this is a POV which contains opinions. The scope of liberty is so great my simple mind and generalizations within this post can not do justice demonsrating how valuable liberty is.

Thumper points out the many things that make the US the envy of many in the world and the things that make the US the source of evil in the minds of many.

I am a Brit, now living in Canada and find myself intrigued by a document : the U.S. Constitution.

Sweden, France, England and United States have had the largest influence on the ideas of personal liberties, defending human dignity, and providing inspiring models of democracies for nations aspiring for self determination.

These four countries provide valuable lessons on what can work for democracies. At the same time they also provide examples of what may go wrong in democracies. If anything, they demonstrate that democracy can not remain static for long, and can not get mired in complacency (occassionally needing a reminder from an outside influence e.g. 9/11).

The U.S. Constitution is a reminder of what liberties these influential democracies wanted to secure for the people.

The U.S. Constitution is threatening to Regimes that are despotic, theocratic, and Static-oriented. They know that people within their influence are tempted by the ideas illustrated so well in the U.S. Constitution. It inspires, it gives hope. The United States, having a presence all over the world, exposes people to the ideas within the document.

The 9/11 incident, despite being so devastating, was a blessing. It shook the US to the core, it reminded people in the U.S. how fortunate they are to have the freedoms secured for them via this document. Osama's network planned an event that was intended to put fear into every American.

The people of United States have an opportunity:

the people can give into the fear (which Osama hopes for) and give their government more powers and allow the erosion of personal liberties

the people can evaluate what the Constitution means and whether the time has come to water it down or to ensure that the liberties it secures are maintained.

The U.S. was attacked for more reasons than I can shake a stick at, but the number one reason for the attack was : The U.S. is the modern representation of an enviable and hated Democratic paradigm.

Again, the generalizations in this POV piece can not do justice to the ideas contained within the Constitution or the ideas that democracies attempt to apply in their laws and policies.
I will be only to happy to accept constructive criticism to expand my understanding of liberty, the Constitution, and putting democracy into practice.

Excellent commentary.

[GreyWanderer]

I can only speak for myself. And there is primarily one thing I dislike about the US. It's that they feel so good about themselves. Almost like it's the only free country in the world. Like Canada, most of Europe, and many other countries don't enjoy the exact same freedom that the US does. It seems like the only thing seperating the US from other democracies is that you can put an anti-aircraft gun in your back yard.

But more recently the thing I don't like is that critizising the American government is so wrong. At least if you're and American and doing it you're suddenly unpatriotic or supporting Saddam. It seems like you can't be patriotic and disagree with the president at the same time.

But apart from this, and a few other oddities, I don't think America is so bad. I certaintly don't hate you all. (:

[Jon_in_london]

I dont hate America but I dont trust it either.

A while ago in a similar thread I said something like this:

American guy: Why do people hate US? is it because they envy us and are jealous because we are so cool?

'Foreign' guy: Well, actually its because of [insert large list of American crimes, hypocrisy, inconsistency, treaty breaking, international law disregarding etc...].

American guy: No thats not true! you are just jealous really! oh yes you are! lalalala..Im not listening! lalala we are so cool! lalala youre just jealous Lalala!

Which is pretty much whats been said in this thread so far.........

I suspect that recently, some of the hatred directed at the US has intensified because of our President's stark rhetoric.

They hate us for our freedoms, they're evildoers, you're with us or you're against us...

Simpleminded.

[Mel]

Originally posted by GreyWanderer
I can only speak for myself. And there is primarily one thing I dislike about the US. It's that they feel so good about themselves. Almost like it's the only free country in the world.

I'm American & this is the exact thing that has been bothering me!!!

Sometimes it feels as if Americans don't even know that other countries are also terrific democracies and those citizens enjoy a lifestyle very much like our own.

Perhaps it's because we are insulated from most of the world that we tend to imagine the whole world must revolve around us? It's good to be PROUD of ones homeland but it's NOT so good to let that pride cloud our common sense.

Maybe if our International News consumption was not limited to the "flavor of the week" and we took the time to follow what was going on around the world we would better UNDERSTAND how we are just a PART OF THE PUZZLE and not really the whole puzzle.

America's attention span doesn't seem to last longer than a few months at a time until we are ready to move onto a new focus. For example, when is the last time the news mentioned what is going on in Afgahnistan as far as that new govt. we installed?

I blame the media for this..... they seem to only spend time or energy on 'new & exciting' but really drop the ball when it comes to FOLLOW UPS.

Bush is very lucky the media is allowing him to keep forging ahead with NEW agendas while being able to avoid being held accountable for much of anything he has done (or not done) so far.

[arcticpenguin]

I think the reason people around the world hate America is that McDonald's changed the special sauce in Big Macs and they don't taste as good any more.

[Mel]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
I think the reason people around the world hate America is that McDonald's changed the special sauce in Big Macs and they don't taste as good any more.

LOL!! And their fries stink also. I think you're onto something here.

[Ace_of_Sevens]

Yes, the US has done some stuff we're not proud of, but so have pretty much all other countries. We actually come out pretty good, relatively. zVery little of it has been recent, either.

[bva]

Its all a matter of opinion. Does it really matter is Norwegians dislike America? Will we lose business from not having them at our beaches or in our cities? Does it matter if France vilifies us at every turn? The list could go on and on. It really doesnt matter. Another person hating me as a person because of my government policies defines the character of that person. Take it for what its worth. I always like to say that I can only imagine a world without America. It would be much difference and the songbirds would be singing a different tune. I think the biggest reason that people get upset is that our government has the convictions to make hard decisions in the face of adversity. The other countries feel threatened or slighted (one up'd). The world evolves and changes therefore policy changes. No one country is infallible. I am proud to be an american and I wouldnt want to live anywhere else and those that dont like me, my brother or my government can get in the line with others. Either way the earth will still keep rotating.

[Baker]

Just looking at the worlds media will give you a good idea you see mass civilian deaths by US forces strong Iraqi resistance.

Al-Jazeera shows a clip of a US bomber fly and then a badly injured baby below it to give the impression that the bomber injured the baby.
Just to give you an idea of what I mean.

[Ladewig]

And yet despite this, the U.S. is one of the best place to live in.
..unless you are one of the tens of millions of people who do not have health insurance. Many European countries provide preventative health care to all citizens (albeit with rather high tax rates).
The US has ... a somewhat fair legal system (shall we say fairer than the one in Saudi Arabia?). unless you are one of the people placed on death row by crooked cops. Unless you are arrested on drug charges and all your assets are seized. Unless you have been tortured by police seeking a confession.


Two other factors that affect the world's perception on U.S.A. are (1) how ignorant average Americans are of international affairs, world geography, and history and (2) how gluttonous and short-sighted the U.S. appears compared to third-, second-, and even first-world countries.


As for me, I am an American who has lived overseas and am now back in the U.S. I like the U.S., but am saddened by what America could be but is not.

[Richard G]

I can only speak for myself. And there is primarily one thing I dislike about the US. It's that they feel so good about themselves.

You like people better when they feel bad about themselves? Miserable and whiny, thats much more preferable. Or are you rather saying you would prefer that Americans were miserable?

Gimme a break.

[Morwen]

Well, I'm not an American, but I've been living here for four years now and I certainly don't hate this country. It has many good things.

And I think it's quite useless to list all the wrongs done by the US as a reason for hating it; pretty much all countries have such kind of story, with light parts and dark parts. But when you couple that with the huge power that the US wields now, and the, yes, arrogance it shows in wielding it, I've seen many fair-minded people turn thoughtful and look at the US warily, and I cannot blame them. It's scary when you are afraid of the world's most powerful country.

As for all those people who are in a default state of US-hating, I ignore them, the same as I ignore all those people who are in a default state of US-loving. Neither of them is willing to look at the whole picture and acknowledge reality. I just hope that people in power do not belong to either of those groups; but it's a thin hope.

So, am I going to stay here in the US for good? No. But this is because of personal reasons (and because the lifestyle really, really, really doesn't agree with me), not for any kind of diffuse, abstract, all-encompassing hatred of the US.

[Darat]

Originally posted by Ladewig

..unless you are one of the tens of millions of people who do not have health insurance. Many European countries provide preventative health care to all citizens (albeit with rather high tax rates).
unless you are one of the people placed on death row by crooked cops. Unless you are arrested on drug charges and all your assets are seized. Unless you have been tortured by police seeking a confession.


Come off it are you really trying to suggest that the USA penal and justice system is worse then Saudi Arabia! That is just laughable.

Originally posted by Ladewig

Two other factors that affect the world's perception on U.S.A. are (1) how ignorant average Americans are of international affairs, world geography, and history and


And how ignorant do you think the people of countries such as Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iraq are with no freedom of press? At least in the USA information is available!

Originally posted by Ladewig

(2) how gluttonous and short-sighted the U.S. appears compared to third-, second-, and even first-world countries.


Hmmm... That's right the people of most other countries of the world, especially "third world" wouldn't want to enjoy the average standard of living a USA citizen does....

Originally posted by Ladewig

As for me, I am an American who has lived overseas and am now back in the U.S. I like the U.S., but am saddened by what America could be but is not.

But is the USA really that much worse or is it just that because at this moment of time it is the most prominent and powerful country?

Maybe the reason is because USA citzens really "thinks" and are brainwashed that is the most beautiful- free country, with the most intelligent people, are specials, protected by God (all the gods and the athiest god), are "rich", handsome, white, blue eyes , walked in the moon, and has the first and the final word.
Also all and the best weapons, and is prepared to rule the life of all the world.
The rest of the world is just their backyard.

Maybe they are correct . Maybe not.

Thanks,
S&S

Originally posted by Gem


Let's face it, the USA is the new Roman Empire, the best thing there is on this Earth as a nation, but still with it's flaws.

Gem.


Or the neo-nazis of the 21 century? I don`t know.

The difference now is that the media can control your mind,

[Walter Wayne]

Originally posted by Gem
...

And yet despite this, the U.S. is one of the best place to live in. The US has one of the largest middle class (if not the biggest, but I'm not sure). A somewhat fair legal system (shall we say fairer than the one in Saudi Arabia?). People against the war are free to protest unhindered (sure, one or two representatives want to 'lynch' them, but at least it's not the majority.) Freedom of speech, religion, to be able to defend yourself in a court of law. Freedom of insulting your government. (Somewhat controversial)Comparing the fairness of our legal system to Saudi Arabia isn't a bragging point. I'm not saying its a bad system, but why do people always compare things to the such poor examples. How do you think it compares to say the France, England, Canada ...

And while freedom of speech, religion and the ability to defend yourself in a court of law or held by many countries, and I would say these freedoms have been somewhat eroded in the US recently.

Let's face it, the USA is the new Roman Empire, the best thing there is on this Earth as a nation, but still with it's flaws.

So again, why is a good thing so controversial and hated?

Gem. It probably comes back to arrogance as many have stated. The cry of many that "The US of A is the greatest country on the planet." While it is up there, I would agree it is a great country, but the greatest?

Walt

[CSSMariner]

When one is King of the hill, all the others are allowed, and perhaps rightfully so, to take cheap pot shots at the King. However, cheap shots are just that, cheap shots.

I would be wiling to bet that if a visa and living expenses for a year, and the chance to seek employment with eventual full citizenship being a strong likelihood in the country of choice, was offered to 100 people on this planet, 99 of them would choose the good old USA.

Being in the yachting industry, I personally know lots of naturalized citizens who are from an incredibly wide range of nationalities. The first thing I always say to them is "Thank you." Then I go on to state that I was fortunate enough to be born an American, but it naturally did not require any smarts on my part to be born here, just the luck of the draw. I am American by birth, southern by the good grace and sense of my folks.

I then tell them that it required a lot of smarts on their part to make the move to the US, and tell them that diversity is what the USA is all about, and emigrants have made the nation great. I also say. "Welcome to my country, we are honored to have you choose to come here and be a part of this great experiment in liberty."

Then I ask them, if they don’t mind, to tell me why they chose America when the world was open to them. To a person, they say that the liberties, the freedoms, the ability to be one's own self and to work as hard as they care to is nowhere better in the entire world than in the United States of America. Having covered a large part of the globe, I cannot argue with that assessment, period.

For all of its warts, both the few real ones, as well as the many perceived ones, America for over 200 years has been, and remains, the bastion of true liberty and freedom in the entire world. Only those who have not been elsewhere, and especially those who want a free ride tend to complain and bitch. I gave this great nation almost ten years of service in the intelligence business, and I know that about which I speak.

America was perhaps an imperialist nation when that was the way of nations many years ago. However, America has sent its young men and women all over the world in the 20th century, and now the 21st, to assist repressed people and restore or even establish liberty where it has not existed before.

A few times in the past, certain agencies supported despots, but that was viewed in the light of the bigger despot, world communism. Excesses in the name of liberty should be viewed in light of the times, not in light of current standards and events. We have learned as we went along, and the fight we are now waging is the fruit of all that learning curve.

Colin Powell said it best when the Archbishop of Canterbury inquired if the action in Iraq was just empire building on George Bush’s part. He said, or words to the effect that, America has sent its youngsters to many parts of the world to assist in ensuring liberty, and all it has asked for in return, is a piece of ground in which to bury those who did not return. No response was possible, because that is the simple truth. I will be so in Iraq, it is so in Afghanistan.

[specious_reasons]

Originally posted by Ladewig

unless you are one of the people placed on death row by crooked cops. Unless you are arrested on drug charges and all your assets are seized. Unless you have been tortured by police seeking a confession.


Point me to a country where this doesn't happen. Corruption, intolerance and evil exist everywhere. In the US, the legal systems have multiple avenues for redress in the very situation you describe. And, of course, the primary reason why you know that police torture exists in the US is because it's been exposed.

[Richard G]

No nation in the history of the world has been so powerfull, and at the same time, so restrained in its use of power, as America. We only awaken, and flex our muscle when we are directly attacked, or threatened with attack.

If we truly were the nazis, better than thou, power hungry, foaming at the mouth imperialists that left wing European sycophants say we are, we would have stomped the s--t out of every country in the world not to our liking already. Who could stop us???

We do not go to war to capture territory, to plunder riches, or enslave people. We go to war to ensure our security, free enslaved people, and protect other free peoples of the world.

If you are a left wing commie, this will probably irk you, because we promote freedom, and not the slave like ideology of the far left, despots, and third world dictators. The most evil regimes, and dictatorial coutries have been kept in check by our strength.

Remove our balancing power in the world, and you'll all find yourselves in some filthy cell of Beijing, or Moscow, or Pyongyang, unless you are a lockstepping goon who willingly enslaves themself to these blood thirsty regimes. All of Europe would be licking the boots of a Fuher, or a puppet on a string for the Russian Politburo.

To say otherwise, or liken us in the same category of these evil regimes and countries, makes me truly wonder what the true European agenda is, and why they would be more comfortable in bed with these dictator countries, than a friend of us.

I hope the U.N. is ejected from my country. I hope we bring all of our troops home. Why should we man a line to protect those abroad when they spit in our face. While my money goes to defend those abroad, those same countries fatten themselves with huge socialist welfare programs. They can afford to with minimal defense budgets. Those days are over for them I'm afraid.

F@#k it. Enter Europe, you take over. From now on, instead of bitching about what it is we are doing to fix problems in the world, I want to hear the brilliant ideas of Eropeans. Then get your goverments off their collective asses and actually do something about those ideas. Empty, meaningless resolutions passed in the U.N. do not count as accomplishing anything.

You'll still bitch though. Because if we aren't helping, your bitching. If we do help, we are Imperialists. Shut up already, and do something construtive. Whining, and moaning doesn't accomplish anything.

[CSSMariner]

Originally posted by Richard G
No nation in the history of the world has been so powerfull, and at the same time, so restrained in its use of power, as America. We only awaken, and flex our muscle when we are directly attacked, or threatened with attack.

If we truly were the nazis, better than thou, power hungry, foaming at the mouth imperialists that left wing European sycophants say we are, we would have stomped the s--t out of every country in the world not to our liking already. Who could stop us???

We do not go to war to capture territory, to plunder riches, or enslave people. We go to war to ensure our security, free enslaved people, and protect other free peoples of the world.

If you are a left wing commie, this will probably irk you, because we promote freedom, and not the slave like ideology of the far left, despots, and third world dictators. The most evil regimes, and dictatorial coutries have been kept in check by our strength.

Remove our balancing power in the world, and you'll all find yourselves in some filthy cell of Beijing, or Moscow, or Pyongyang, unless you are a lockstepping goon who willingly enslaves themself to these blood thirsty regimes. All of Europe would be licking the boots of a Fuher, or a puppet on a string for the Russian Politburo.

To say otherwise, or liken us in the same category of these evil regimes and countries, makes me truly wonder what the true European agenda is, and why they would be more comfortable in bed with these dictator countries, than a friend of us.

I hope the U.N. is ejected from my country. I hope we bring all of our troops home. Why should we man a line to protect those abroad when they spit in our face. While my money goes to defend those abroad, those same countries fatten themselves with huge socialist welfare programs. They can afford to with minimal defense budgets. Those days are over for them I'm afraid.

F@#k it. Enter Europe, you take over. From now on, instead of bitching about what it is we are doing to fix problems in the world, I want to hear the brilliant ideas of Eropeans. Then get your goverments off their collective asses and actually do something about those ideas. Empty, meaningless resolutions passed in the U.N. do not count as accomplishing anything.

You'll still bitch though. Because if we aren't helping, your bitching. If we do help, we are Imperialists. Shut up already, and do something construtive. Whining, and moaning doesn't accomplish anything.

I was thinking I would elaborate on your post my friend, but the more I read it the less I realized I could add to it. Good show!!:D

[GreyWanderer]

Originally posted by Richard G


You like people better when they feel bad about themselves? Miserable and whiny, thats much more preferable. Or are you rather saying you would prefer that Americans were miserable?

Gimme a break.

You don't need to take it to the other extreme. It's ok to feel good about yourself, just not too good. I like my country, and for the most part I'm proud of it. But I don't say it's so much better than any other country.

I once posted in a forum, an article written in an American newspaper about how Norway was the best country to live in. I wasn't bragging, I just though it was a fun article. The article was pretty exaggerated too.

And guess what. Quite a few Americans took offence and started talking about how America was the great country and the only free country on the earth etc.

That, and some of the posts in this thread demonstrates some of the things I dislike about America. It's a great country, but you aren't God's gift to humanity.

[Ladewig]

Originally posted by Ladewig

unless you are one of the people placed on death row by crooked cops. Unless you are arrested on drug charges and all your assets are seized. Unless you have been tortured by police seeking a confession.
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Point me to a country where this doesn't happen. Corruption, intolerance and evil exist everywhere. In the US, the legal systems have multiple avenues for redress in the very situation you describe. And, of course, the primary reason why you know that police torture exists in the US is because it's been exposed.

"placed on death row by crooked cops" There is a difference between corrupt members of a large, honest system placing an innocent person in prison and placing an innocent person on death row. Because many countries don't have a death penalty, this particular type of injustice can happen only in countries like the U.S. You are correct, however, in pointing out that other countries with the death penalty do not have systems anywhere near as thorough for releasing innocent people convicted of a capital offense.

Proponents will point out that no one executed in the U.S. has ever been proved to be innocent, but perhaps that is because all evidence (including DNA evidence) is destroyed immediately after the execution.

"arrested on drug charges and all your assets are seized." Yes, corruption, intolerance and evil exist everywhere, but this situation is not the result of corrupt police. The law states that even though you are innocent until proven guilty, if you are charged with a drug-related offense, then you are mostly innocent until proven guilty. You are guilty enough to have assets seized (making it difficult to hire a lawyer), but not so guilty that you are denied Constitutional rights.