Horse skin

[popsy]

My friend has a horse that has itchy skin. It's been variously diagnosed as fly-bite sensitivity, and other things which have slipped my mind at the moment. The latest vet suggested feeding the horse half a cup of yogurt daily to change the intestinal flora that might be causing him to itch. One half a cup of yogurt seems like it would make little difference to a horse whose large body is basically intestines. The horse does scratch his hind end but it's likely not his butt that's itching, but his tail. His mane, tail, and mid-line tend to be his itchy places. Have any of you horse owners or vets had any experience with this sort of situation? Horse is fed timothy hay, and lately a small amount of rolled oats, besides mineral supplements. Horse has been in several different environments over the years. He is now 6 or maybe 7 years old and the itching has been a recurring problem.

[Eos of the Eons]

What kind of Vet is that? What will yogurt do to a horse digestive system? How would intestinal "flora" affect his skin?

Rolfe, help!

[ReFLeX]

Think about the amount of live bacteria there could be in just a half cup of yogurt. Thousands and thousands. I don't actually know what the concentration of them is, but I bet it could make a real difference.
ETA: In the intestines that is... I wouldn't know about the itch-- real helpful.

[Goddoesnotplaydice]

Try some hydrogen peroxide rubs, FREQUENT ONES!

but check with the vet FIRST!
THe yogurt sounds good!!! Hey, I want some too!

gdnpd
p.s. hey is for horses! :)

[materia3]

Perhaps this is how a horse's GI tract interfaces with the fly caused itchy skin problem........

Bot flies will lay eggs on your horse's legs in late summer. Because the eggs feel itchy, your horse will lick her legs. The eggs pass from the horse's tongue to the stomach lining. Next spring, the eggs will have turned into larvae and will be passed through the horse's stools. Bot larvae rob your horse of nutrients and can even cause stomach ulcers. Remove the eggs from the horse's legs before they are ingested.

for more on dealing with this see:

www.ehow.com/how_6680_rid-fly-eggs.html

[Suezoled]

Originally posted by Goddoesnotplaydice
Try some hydrogen peroxide rubs, FREQUENT ONES!

but check with the vet FIRST!
THe yogurt sounds good!!! Hey, I want some too!

gdnpd
p.s. hey is for horses! :)

Why not just a mix of dilute sulphuric acid or a bit of HNO3?

Popsy, itchy skin covers a pretty broad range of things.
It could be something so simply as itchiness from shedding winter hair. Or it could be a dermatitis that may or may not benefit from antibiotics... it's hard to say.

Bots aren't so easy to dislodge from the legs. I normally have to take a blunt knife to scrape the buggers off.
Regular deworming helps more than yogurt, though.

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by Suezoled
Bots aren't so easy to dislodge from the legs. I normally have to take a blunt knife to scrape the buggers off.
Regular deworming helps more than yogurt, though.

Ewwww! And yeah, I'm sure there are better ways to clear them from the horse's digestive tract than yogurt. What can one use for deworming?

[popsy]

The horse is de-wormed regularly.

I think the owner is going to call in an animal dermatologist next week. He's the one that helped when one of my dogs was diagnosed with ringworm by another vet. Doggy actually had a reaction to her vaccination.

[Rolfe]

It sounds a bit like sweet itch, which is an allergy to biting midges. A proper equine dermatologist would be able to make a proper diagnosis, though this may require a few lab tests.

Whether or not feeding "good" bacteria can help diarrhoea, which can be caused directly by an imbalance of the intestinal flora, is still a matter of debate in veterinary circles, with the horse being the species in which the evidence is least impressive. I'm actually in the provisional "yes" camp on that one, though many colleagues would disagree with me.

However, the evidence that some imbalance of intestinal flora can affect the skin is precisely zero. Not only that, there is no rational way that such an effect is even possible. This is pure woo.

Try asking this woo what the normal bacteria present in the intestine of the healthy horse are, and in what quantities, and in what way might they be seen to be abnormal. I'll take a fair bet he has no idea at all, and has never even thought of doing any bacterial cultures to see if there is any evidence at all for this daft proposition.

Rolfe.

[popsy]

I don't know this particular vet at all but I think his assumption was that the horse had an itchy anus and was therefore rubbing his backside. The yogurt was to change the intestinal balance of bacteria in hope that would help with the itching. He either didn't know, or ignored, the fact that the horse had other itchy areas. The rear-end was just the most obvious as that is where it was easiest for the horse to scratch.

I don't know if the horse vets out here are pandering to their clients with some of their woo-ism, or if they really believe it might be helpful. I think in some cases it's that they've run out of sensible ideas and are willing to try anything else.

I believe that it's pretty obvious what my friend, the horse's owner, should do. She should hire an animal communicator and the horse could say what itched and why. It may just be that he's bored with dressage and is itching from the stress. My friend has an acquaintance that had the 'ac' tell her that her horse didn't want to do dressage because it was prissy. Another had to quit carrying a dressage whip because the horse didn't understand, according to the 'ac', why it might be used on him. He understood what the whip was but just not why he should be aided with it. (Those who aren't familiar with dressage, the whip is used only to reinforce an aid when the horse doesn't understand that he has to pay attention. Whips aren't used to actually whip the dickens out of the horse, just to make a sharper aid. For instance, a leg aid might be ignored if the horse would prefer to not do what was being asked. The next time the whip might be used with the leg aid to reinforce the leg aid.) Sorry I got off topic. Especially as this horse is very unlikely to have a stress-related itch as it started before he was in work, and this horse is very laid back. I just couldn't pass up the chance to throw crap at animal communicators.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by popsy
I don't know this particular vet at all but I think his assumption was that the horse had an itchy anus and was therefore rubbing his backside. The yogurt was to change the intestinal balance of bacteria in hope that would help with the itching. First, there is exactly zero evidence that an imbalance in intestinal flora causes an itchy backside, and in addition there is exactly zero reason to suspect that it might. I have seen squillions of animals with (laboratory-diagnosed) abnormalities of the gut flora, and none of them has had an itchy backside.

Second, although it's hard to say without seeing the horse, my suspicion from your description is that the hose is scratching the tail-head. The tail-head, the withers and the mane are the main sites of itching in classic sweet itch. My only reservation is that sweet itch is so common where I come from and so easily recognised as such that I have a doubt as to whether anyone at all would miss anything so obvious. So, are you in an area where sweet itch doesn't occur? (Presence of Culicoides biting flies is a requirement, as far as I recall.) Or does your friend know what sweet itch is well enough to realise that this isn't it?

Rolfe.

[popsy]

Thanks so much for your attention to this problem. I asked my friend about sweet itch. She said that at one time a vet gave her a remedy specifically for sweet itch (Said on the container that it treated sweet itch). It didn't help. And no, we are not in an area where sweet itch gnats are prevalent. We live in the Arizona desert. I don't think itchy skin is something that causes horse owners here to immediately think sweet itch. But if that is what it is, do you know a favored treatment?

Also is it possible that his itchiness could be a vaccine reaction? Horses here are vacced for rhinovirus, influenza, strangles, and a combo of e. and w. encephalitis including West Nile, twice yearly.

[Eos of the Eons]

http://www.members.shaw.ca/eostory/argh.GIF http://www.members.shaw.ca/eostory/Scratch-Head.gif

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by popsy
Doggy actually had a reaction to her vaccination.

What was the reaction exactly? Who diagnosed it? Which vaccination caused it? Thanks.

[popsy]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
What was the reaction exactly? Who diagnosed it? Which vaccination caused it? Thanks.

Her hair fell out, first in a circle on her upper ribcage, possibly the injection site, and also somewhat on the other side, also on patches on her face. She also had itchy wrists, which I didn't connect to the hair-loss problem at the time. She was diagnosed from a punch biopsy at a lab in Texas. The results came back as "consistent with a vaccine reaction". Don't know about the vacc that caused it, she had recived both the combo and rabies. I elected not to get her vacced this year as rabies is good for 3 years and I'm going to wait that long, or longer, for boosters for the others.

[Eos of the Eons]

How does a vaccine "reaction" cause the dog's hair to fall out? Was it allergic?

[popsy]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
How does a vaccine "reaction" cause the dog's hair to fall out? Was it allergic?

Yes, it was an allergic reaction. I've read that it is often the vaccine carrier in the combo shots that cause problems, but I'm certainly no expert. I think she will get an antihistamine before her next vacc. I think that's how they cope with this problem.

The dog in question is a black Pomeranian and her hair grew back white in the area that was worst, so she has a little patch of white now to match her 'milk moustache'. :)

[Suezoled]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
Ewwww! And yeah, I'm sure there are better ways to clear them from the horse's digestive tract than yogurt. What can one use for deworming?

I'm sorry Eos! I have no excuse to delay answering your question ...

This is a brand of dewormer

http://www.countrysupply.com/products/sku-BBL07.html

You give one every few months, you rotate the type of dewormer so the bugs don't develop a resistence.
You take the horses' approximate weight, and there's a ring where you can slide the punger to premeasure the dose. You then pop off the cap, and bring the horses's head down to you. You can grab his tongue, and shove the syringe so the medicine goes to the back of his tongue. Then close his mouth and don't let him open it until you actually see him swallow.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by popsy
Her hair fell out, first in a circle on her upper ribcage, possibly the injection site, and also somewhat on the other side, also on patches on her face. She also had itchy wrists, which I didn't connect to the hair-loss problem at the time. She was diagnosed from a punch biopsy at a lab in Texas. The results came back as "consistent with a vaccine reaction".There is a higher incidence of annoying trouble in veterinary vaccines than human ones, so I wouldn't discount this.

I can only say that I've never encountered a reaction like this, and I'd want to have a bit of a talk with the histopathologist who diagnosed it before issuing the report. It's certainly not a common occurence at all.

Rolfe.

[richardm]

Originally posted by Suezoled
You then pop off the cap, and bring the horses's head down to you. You can grab his tongue, and shove the syringe so the medicine goes to the back of his tongue. Then close his mouth and don't let him open it until you actually see him swallow.

Then, you walk around to the other side of the horse and find the medicine has run out of the corner of his mouth while you weren't watching. Return to your car and get another syringe.

Repeat until you estimate that the horse has received some of the medicine :D

[Suezoled]

Originally posted by richardm
Then, you walk around to the other side of the horse and find the medicine has run out of the corner of his mouth while you weren't watching. Return to your car and get another syringe.

Repeat until you estimate that the horse has received some of the medicine :D

Oh please. Even a 10 year old girl can worm a horse. Go find a 10 year old girl.

[richardm]

Originally posted by Suezoled
Go find a 10 year old girl.

I don't think anyone's ever suggested such a thing to me :eek:

[popsy]

Originally posted by Rolfe
There is a higher incidence of annoying trouble in veterinary vaccines than human ones, so I wouldn't discount this.

I can only say that I've never encountered a reaction like this, and I'd want to have a bit of a talk with the histopathologist who diagnosed it before issuing the report. It's certainly not a common occurence at all.

Rolfe.

As you know, if something is said in a positive enough voice, it's believable to those who don't know differently. :p

This year the dog had another spot that was hairless, and I thought "OH NO, he was wrong cause here it is back again and no vaccine to blame." I made an appointment to take her back to the dermo guy and by the time the appt rolled around, I couldn't even find the spot. It apparently was just one of those things that happen when you have 4 busy little dogs. He checked her over and said her skin seemed fine. I questioned him again about the previous diagnosis, could it have been in error? He said that they have a good reputation for getting this stuff right and that he agreed with their findings. Are you at all interested in more information about the findings? I can probably get more info if you're interested.

[Rolfe]

The interesting thing about this is that the lesions you reported were not confined to the injection site. Skin reactions at the actual injection site are uncommon, but quite well recognised. Skin reactions elsewhere are a different matter. I just wonder if this was a case of "the bit of skin I had was consistent with a vaccine reaction, so assuming it came from the injection site, I'll say that," without necessarily realising that the distribution was more widespread.

I'm not an expert on dermatology though, so it's really just a case of, if I were to receive a report stating that this was likely to be a vaccine reaction, I'd want to discuss it further with the histopathologist involved.

Rolfe.

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by Suezoled
I'm sorry Eos! I have no excuse to delay answering your question ...

This is a brand of dewormer

http://www.countrysupply.com/products/sku-BBL07.html

You give one every few months, you rotate the type of dewormer so the bugs don't develop a resistence.
You take the horses' approximate weight, and there's a ring where you can slide the punger to premeasure the dose. You then pop off the cap, and bring the horses's head down to you. You can grab his tongue, and shove the syringe so the medicine goes to the back of his tongue. Then close his mouth and don't let him open it until you actually see him swallow.

:D That's more information than I ever expected! I wish everyone posted so completely and unambiguously and...:D

[popsy]

Originally posted by Rolfe
The interesting thing about this is that the lesions you reported were not confined to the injection site. Skin reactions at the actual injection site are uncommon, but quite well recognised. Skin reactions elsewhere are a different matter. I just wonder if this was a case of "the bit of skin I had was consistent with a vaccine reaction, so assuming it came from the injection site, I'll say that," without necessarily realising that the distribution was more widespread.

I'm not an expert on dermatology though, so it's really just a case of, if I were to receive a report stating that this was likely to be a vaccine reaction, I'd want to discuss it further with the histopathologist involved.

Rolfe.

Vet took at least 2, and I think 3 samples in all, 1 from other side, and one from her back. All came back consistent...yada, yada. From what I recall, this was not a new experience with the dermo guy. Apparently he's had other patients similar. The good thing is that her hair grew back and, so far, it hasn't happened again.

Different thing entirely, I did have an older toy poodle that would get abcesses at her rabies vacc site. Poor little girl, the first time it happened, I didn't know it was there and patted her on the back and she about fell through the floor.

I'm going to take advantage of your knowledge, if you'll let me. I have a very small Pomeranian (different one) that sneezes when she gets very excited. Vet said probably due to her having such a tiny muzzle and the viscosity of the fluid in her sinuses being the same as in a big dog, that her sinus openings are too small to drain properly. So it gets in her nose and she sneezes. Before you ask, vet didn't know why it happened more when she (dog) is excited. I told dog's breeder what the vet said and she took umbrage, I guess thinking it was a reflection on her breeding practices, and insisted that it has to be an allergic reaction to something the dog is inhaling. Personally, I haven't a clue, but wish something could be done as the itty bitty doggy gets sinus infections fairly often. Has any situation like this ever showed up in your experience?

[Eos of the Eons]

Gee whiz popsy, what are feeding those dogs, or bathing them in? I had dogs growing up, and they never had problems like that. Sorry, don't answer that, but my mind boggles.

[popsy]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
Gee whiz popsy, what are feeding those dogs, or bathing them in? I had dogs growing up, and they never had problems like that. Sorry, don't answer that, but my mind boggles.


When you have a bunch of little bitty dogs, mostly bred just to be little bitty, many qualities are left by the wayside in the quest for more little bittiness. A bad practice. My fault for loving little dogs. Actually I like almost all dogs, just the little ones best. :D All four of my dogs don't add up to twenty pounds. Now the cats are another story. My husband feeds them and he likes fat cats. They are no particular breeds, a Tabby, a Tuxedo, a lynx-point Siamese cross and Tuxedo silver tabby. She's the only one even halfway slim.:p

How come you don't have a dog now?

[Eos of the Eons]

Our little humble abode is too small, and hubby loves cats, but I'm allergic to cats. Hubby hates small dogs. We tried one once, and the kids body slammed the poor little thing. We also both work and nobody is hardly ever home. A dog groomer took pity on her and we gave her away to the dog groomer. We figure she has it much better now. Sigh.

[popsy]

Rolfe, you nailed this one. She had the animal dermo guy out today, and he said, just as you suspected, it's sweet itch.

Originally posted by Rolfe

Second, although it's hard to say without seeing the horse, my suspicion from your description is that the hose is scratching the tail-head. The tail-head, the withers and the mane are the main sites of itching in classic sweet itch.

Rolfe. snip

So, are you in an area where sweet itch doesn't occur? (Presence of Culicoides biting flies is a requirement, as far as I recall.) Or does your friend know what sweet itch is well enough to realise that this isn't it?

Apparently, as we've had a very wet winter, the little gnats are much worse this year. :( Fortunately the weather is likely to be hot and dry for a while, so maybe the poor horse's itch will die down a bit. The vet did prescribe an antihistamine, hydroxyzine, unless it makes the horse too dozy.

[Eos of the Eons]

I'm grateful for the update popsy.