Anti-Vaccination crazies

[Alex DeLarge]

I recently came accross this LJ community: MOMS (http://www.livejournal.com/community/moms/)

Is there any way of arguing with these people?
What exactly are the risks involved in not vaccinating your children? Any cases in particular I should mention?

Thanks.

[Eos of the Eons]

What I don't get is why they are opposing something that isn't even proposed. Where are shots mandatory?

There are a billion of those sites out there, and if you have the energy, then sure, try reasoning with them. I'll point you to some resources:

http://www.immunize.org/stories/index.htm#chickenpox
http://www.immunize.org/index.htm
http://www.geocities.com/healthbase/vaxquotes.html
http://www.geocities.com/healthbase/vaccination.html
http://www.mumsnet.com/bigissues/vaccinations.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/20/60II/main650368.shtml

The main risks are the recurrence of vaccine preventable diseases and destroying herd immunity for those that can't get vaccines.
The consequences are death or lifelong disability including brain damage, loss of the use of limbs, and disfiguration.
When immunisation rates fell after a scare about whooping cough vaccine in Britain in 1974, the effect was devastating - 100 000 children caught whooping cough and 36 died within the next four years.
Whooping cough. At its peak, a quarter million people (most of them children) got it every year and 9,000 died from it.
You may not convince the anti-vaccinators, but you might help some looking for better information. Most anti-vaccinators have a vested interest in convincing people not to vaccinate (offering up alternatives). You'll find those moms have been sucked in by many sCAM lies and are using useless alternatives instead of relying on what has demonstrated to be safe and actually works (vaccination).

[anonimouse]

Originally posted by Alex DeLarge
I recently came accross this LJ community: MOMS (http://www.livejournal.com/community/moms/)

Is there any way of arguing with these people?
What exactly are the risks involved in not vaccinating your children? Any cases in particular I should mention?

Thanks.

Ah, my friend, you'd probably be better off hitting yourself in the head repeatedly with a shovel. Anti-vaccinators, as a rule, have cognitive dissonance coming out the wazoo. While there are a few that at least will engage in debate on the issues (even if most often their arguments are weak and unsupported) the majority will point to "all the children maimed and injured by vaccines".

And oh yeah, you'll be questioned as to your motives, and whether you have a financial interest in "pushing" vaccines.

[Chris Haynes]

Originally posted by Alex DeLarge
I... Any cases in particular I should mention?


Ah.. the full loon bunch!

What is interesting is using www.news.google.com. Plug into the search box, and you will get an interesting set of news articles. Some like the fact that 35 children have died of measles in India (so much for homeopathy!):
http://www.expressnewsline.com/phpnews2/news.php?action=fullnews&id=4260

or that it has closed a ward in the UK (thank you Mr. Wakefield! see http://briandeer.com/wakefield-deer.htm ):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/gloucestershire/4409017.stm

Also, you find interesting articles like this:
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2005/04/10/special_reports/science_technology/16_27_344_9_05.txt

I noticed that when you use the term "mumps" in the search window, you get lots of hits on UK sports teams that have been effected by players down with that particular disease.

But you will find that the anti-vax folks will not care... they will reflect the sentiments of this page:
http://www.pathguy.com/antiimmu.htm (it seems that in the latest edit, Dr. F. has neglected line breaks... copy it into a word processor as un-formatted text, and it should work).

You should be able to find a bunch more stuff here:
http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight/vaccines1.htm

Also, there are some interesting blogs like:
http://blacktriangle.org/blog/index.php?s=vaccines&submit=Search
and
http://universalacid.blogspot.com/2005/02/mmr-vaccine-and-autism.html

Good luck... with that bunch, you need it!

[bignickel]

I knew Eos would be posting in this thread... :)

[crimresearch]

"What I don't get is why they are opposing something that isn't even proposed. Where are shots mandatory?"

I'll hazard a guess that by 'mandatory', they mean 'We can't put our kids into the public school system to infect your kids, without providing proof of vaccination'.

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by crimresearch

I'll hazard a guess that by 'mandatory', they mean 'We can't put our kids into the public school system to infect your kids, without providing proof of vaccination'.

Pffft, that's easy to get around. You can put off providing the records, claim exemption, fake the paperwork. The schools prefer children are protected from vaccine preventable disease (ogres), but it's not mandatory.

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by bignickel
I knew Eos would be posting in this thread... :)

Well, yeah, and HCN and sodakboy93 :)
How goes the employment thing big guy?

[Chris Haynes]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
Well, yeah, and HCN and sodakboy93 :)
...

We are so predictable... also we all have several of these websites in our "Favorites" folder.

I also scan the news with http://news.google.com/nwshp?hl=en&gl=us ... which today brought up these two interesting stories:
The effect of the polio vaccine: http://www.southbendtribune.com/stories/thisday/opinion.20050410-sbt-MICH-B6-The.sto

and "What is the Big Whoop"... pertussis in older children:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/health/2002234383_healthwhoop10.html

[Alex DeLarge]

Thanks for all the replies.
One more thing, someone posted a link to a "Dr." Mercola article on vaccines. I've come across this guy before, I think he's a complete quack (It's obvious that he's just trying to sell worthless suplements, videotapes and books, how come this people can't see that?). The article looks like fearmongering bs to me, he says thing like this:

The idea that free radicals play a major role in all of the conditions listed above is now proven--the big question is why are so many free radicals being generated? In the case of autism, ADD and ADHD many came to support the idea that mercury derived from vaccines was the source of the radicals. And it was known that mercury could cause free radicals to be generated in large numbers within the brain. Evidence connecting mercury to the autism spectrum disorders, neurodegeneration and the Gulf War Syndrome is strong, but not exclusive [SIC].

http://www.mercola.com/2004/may/12/vaccination_dangers.htm

But he doesn't say anything about who has done this research, when or where it was done. No links, nothing.

Does anyone have more information on the specific claims Mercola makes, like the stuff on free radicals and viruses from vaccines (mutating inside the body)?

[Eos of the Eons]

Actually, Mercola is a complete nonsense monger. I've never seen anything quite like it. I don't even know where to start. He is referenced often by others who want to sell sCAM or sCAM ideology because he makes such outrageous claims and seems to be a good way to appeal to authority since not everyone is aware of how outrageously unsupported his claims are. I think he just makes up most of the garbage he spews based on a bit of pseudoscience.

The FDA has issued a warning to him:


http://www.casewatch.org/fdawarning/prod/2005/mercola.shtml

They can only address specific product claims though. They aren't meant to regulate all the garbage spewed freely on his site. Nobody really regulates that. You can say whatever you want to on the world wide web.

So, of course you won't find any facts or studies on the crap oozing on his site.

Sorry to be so crude, but it's hard to address the insanity sanely sometimes.

[crimresearch]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
Pffft, that's easy to get around. You can put off providing the records, claim exemption, fake the paperwork. The schools prefer children are protected from vaccine preventable disease (ogres), but it's not mandatory.

I think that depends on the jurisdiction.

"Every state has a law requiring children to be vaccinated
before they enroll in a public or private school...."

(In Virginia, every fall the news would run stories of 'angry parents' whose children had been turned away from the first day of school).

These states seem more lax:
"...Exemptions based on philosophical or moral convictions in opposition to immunization are less common, but are provided by more than a dozen states, including Arizona, California, Idaho, Louisiana, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nebraska, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Vermont, Washington, and Wisconsin..."
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/RS21414.pdf#search='mandatory%20vaccination%20scho ol'

[BillHoyt]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
So, of course you won't find any facts or studies on the crap oozing on his site.

Sorry to be so crude, but it's hard to address the insanity sanely sometimes.

Yech, some metaphor! But apt. :D

It would be interesting to see if one can correlate incidence per capita to the list of lax states. Or better, correlate to the numbers of school children opting out. Herd immunity would definitely obscure the problem unless there are opt-out pockets. My recollection from the papers I've read in the past is that such pockets exist.

[anonimouse]

This study does just that:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11135778

And these studies illustrate the risk of non-vaccination in places were religious exemptions are common:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8341776

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8483622

This is a good discussion of the legal and ethical considerations surrounding vaccine exemptions:

http://www.law.washington.edu/Faculty/Calandrillo/Publications/VanishingVaccinations.pdf

[Alex DeLarge]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
Actually, Mercola is a complete nonsense monger. I've never seen anything quite like it. I don't even know where to start. He is referenced often by others who want to sell sCAM or sCAM ideology because he makes such outrageous claims and seems to be a good way to appeal to authority since not everyone is aware of how outrageously unsupported his claims are. I think he just makes up most of the garbage he spews based on a bit of pseudoscience.

Yes, I thought so. About those appeals to authority, in the thread I'm arguing someone posted links to Mercola and other quacks and made a big deal about them being "Doctors." Funny how they ignore the opinion of the vast majority of Doctors, then.


The FDA has issued a warning to him:


http://www.casewatch.org/fdawarning/prod/2005/mercola.shtml


Yes , but the FDA is part of some kind of conspiracy, apparently.


They can only address specific product claims though. They aren't meant to regulate all the garbage spewed freely on his site. Nobody really regulates that. You can say whatever you want to on the world wide web.

So, of course you won't find any facts or studies on the crap oozing on his site.

Sorry to be so crude, but it's hard to address the insanity sanely sometimes.

Perfectly understandable, I have the same problem sometimes.

[LostAngeles]

Here's a story posted to CNN today.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/conditions/04/11/polio.vaccine.50.ap/index.html

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by crimresearch
I think that depends on the jurisdiction.

"Every state has a law requiring children to be vaccinated
before they enroll in a public or private school...."

(In Virginia, every fall the news would run stories of 'angry parents' whose children had been turned away from the first day of school).

These states seem more lax:
"...Exemptions based on philosophical or moral convictions in opposition to immunization are less common, but are provided by more than a dozen states, including Arizona, California, Idaho, Louisiana, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nebraska, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Vermont, Washington, and Wisconsin..."
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/RS21414.pdf#search='mandatory%20vaccination%20scho ol'
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/RS21414.pdf
Thanks Crim.



Many modern schoolvaccination laws are the result of measles outbreaks in the 1960's and 1970's.1

The consequences?

Whoever refuses or neglects to comply with such requirement shall forfeit five dollars.�

Eh...not sure what that means, but I lauged.

Then they continue on about the exemptions for this and that.Despite the wide-spread imposition of school vaccination requirements, many states
provide exemptions for medical, religious, and, to a lesser extent, philosophical reasons....Almost all states also grant religious exemptions for persons who oppose immunizations

Then comes the rest of your quote. I feel "mandatory" means no exemptions. It's wayyy easy to get your child in school unvaccinated. There are options providing the choices the parents want.

In Canada vaccination is not mandatory, and there are no laws.

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by Alex DeLarge
Yes, I thought so. About those appeals to authority, in the thread I'm arguing someone posted links to Mercola and other quacks and made a big deal about them being "Doctors." Funny how they ignore the opinion of the vast majority of Doctors, then.



Thing is, Mercola is not an MD...he's an osteopath. He hasn't even gone to med school, and has the training of a chiro...which we cover in the chiro thread.

Dubious Aspects of Osteopathy: http://www.geocities.com/healthbase/death_by_medicine.html

Still believed that diseases were caused by mechanical interference with nerve and blood supply and were curable by manipulation of "deranged, displaced bones, nerves, muscles -- removing all obstructions -- thereby setting the machinery of life moving." His autobiography states that he could "shake a child and stop scarlet fever, croup, diphtheria, and cure whooping cough in three days by a wring of its neck." [1]

Is it any wonder Mercola prattles on the way he does?

[Alex DeLarge]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
Thing is, Mercola is not an MD...he's an osteopath. He hasn't even gone to med school, and has the training of a chiro...which we cover in the chiro thread.

Dubious Aspects of Osteopathy: http://www.geocities.com/healthbase/death_by_medicine.html



Is it any wonder Mercola prattles on the way he does?

I see. But I could show them that link and they still would not care, they''l just claim this was written by people with either "blind faith" in real medicine or people with financial interests.

How do I argue with something like this?

The companies that make these vaccinations also make tons of other drugs that get pushed on us by well-meaning, overworked physicians. Many of these drugs cause such horrible side-effects, they are worse than the symptoms they treat. NONE of them cure the illness that causes the disease. Who are the real quacks? and for all the hype, vaccination doesn't work. It hasn't completely eradicated ALL the diseases it is meant to prevent. If it really worked, ALL the diseases would be long gone by now. People who get vaccinated still get the illnesses they are supposedly protected from.


http://www.livejournal.com/community/moms/22295.html?view=105239#t105239

[geni]

Originally posted by Alex DeLarge
I see. But I could show them that link and they still would not care, they''l just claim this was written by people with either "blind faith" in real medicine or people with financial interests.

How do I argue with something like this?



http://www.livejournal.com/community/moms/22295.html?view=105239#t105239

You can't. Your problem is you are thinking and trying to argue rationaly.

[BillHoyt]

Originally posted by geni
You can't. Your problem is you are thinking and trying to argue rationaly.

Aw, c'mon, geni, bad day at the skeptic front? There's certainly a kernel of truth to this. On the other hand...

You can't expect to win in the eyes of the people you are debating. You can clearly see they have two problems: 1) they are true believers on a mission and 2) they can't think their way out of paper bags. But you need to remember that posters are a small percentage of board visitors, and you are always playing to the bigger audience.

The quoted paragraph starts out with the subject / motive shift fallacy combined with a distinct cherry-picking of motives. Movie producers make money off movies, too. Does that mean no movies are worth watching? Hardly. That somebody makes money at something is immaterial to the question of quality or efficacity. Moreover, you need to point out to this person that those drug companies are all motivated to beat one another over the heads to make their drug sell and the other drug languish on the shelves. They are NOT united then. The "overworked" doctors are all being taught by professors who are motivated to do research and to publish papers. The motivations here include being the first to uncover that a drug DOESN'T work or that it has bad side effects. Like the Wizard of Oz' scarecrow, the motivation arrows all point in different directions.

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by Alex DeLarge
I see. But I could show them that link and they still would not care, they''l just claim this was written by people with either "blind faith" in real medicine or people with financial interests.

How do I argue with something like this?



http://www.livejournal.com/community/moms/22295.html?view=105239#t105239

Not everyone gets vaccinated, or yes-the diseases would be eradicated. Smallpox was an "uncomplicated" disease that was aggressively vaccinated against. It's eradicated. Polio was being fought rather well until there were some holdouts because of a ridiculous conspiracy theory. Those antivaccinators can blame themselves for allowing pockets of the disease to continue on and even mutate (complicating the vaccination process).

What is the evidence that drugs do not cure disease? What about all those people that become cancer free? What about all those children that get strep throat cleared up when taking antibiotics? What about all those children that don't get vaccine preventable diseases after vaccination?

The claims the poster makes are very false, demand proof of their claims.

I like how the fact that we live longer and healthier than ever is ignored. When only sCAM was used we suffered greatly. Polio would be a horrible problem in the Americas still if it were not for vaccination.

Here is a great resource on vaccination:
http://www.unicef.org/publications/pub_sowvi_en.pdf

Takes a while to load.

And a lot of arguments you are looking for are here:
http://www.geocities.com/healthbase/vaxquotes.html

You can even peruse my own website:
http://www.members.shaw.ca/eostory/Vaccine%20Quotes.html
http://www.members.shaw.ca/eostory/Vaccinations.html
http://www.members.shaw.ca/eostory/Viruses.html

[BillHoyt]

Good morning, Eos! ;)

[crimresearch]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
I feel "mandatory" means no exemptions. It's wayyy easy to get your child in school unvaccinated. There are options providing the choices the parents want.

I'm afraid that in this case of 'mandatory', that the reality belies the words...it looks like Virginia was in the minority in actually turning unvaccinated kids away.

Thing is, Mercola is not an MD...he's an osteopath. He hasn't even gone to med school, and has the training of a chiro...which we cover in the chiro thread.

Dubious Aspects of Osteopathy: http://www.geocities.com/healthbase/death_by_medicine.html

Is it any wonder Mercola prattles on the way he does?

I don't have a clue who Mercola is, although the stuff on his website is clearly bogus..but on the link you give, the article on the 'Dubious Aspectsof Osteopathy' opens up with the words:

"Osteopathic physicians (DOs) are the legal equivalents and, in most cases, are the professional equivalents of medical doctors....
...As medical science developed, osteopathy gradually incorporated all its theories and practices [2]. Today, except for additional emphasis on musculoskeletal diagnosis and treatment, the scope of osteopathy is identical to that of medicine...
....Admission to osteopathic school requires three years of preprofessional college work, but almost all of those enrolled have a baccalaureate or higher degree. The doctor of osteopathy (DO) degree requires more than 5,000 hours of training over four academic years. The faculties of osteopathic colleges are about evenly divided between doctors of osteopathy and holders of PhD degrees, with a few medical doctors at some colleges. Graduation is followed by a one-year rotating internship at an approved teaching hospital. Specialization requires two to six additional years of residency training, depending on the specialty. A majority of osteopaths enter family practice.
"

Now that is a far cry from 'the training of a chiro', and we do a great disservice to the many ethical and scientific osteopaths who apply sound medical principles to their practice, when we use the actions of quacks to smear the entire profession.

[anonimouse]

A good friend of mine is a D.O. (a second-year resident) and is about as rational and scientific as it gets.

As to the quote...

The companies that make these vaccinations also make tons of other drugs that get pushed on us by well-meaning, overworked physicians.

This seems like an illogical statement with regards to vaccination, because unlike other pharmaceutical drugs, vaccines are mostly mandated by public health agencies. The pharmaceutical companies aren't really as dependent on the doctors to "push" vaccines - in fact, the few incentives for doctors to vaccinate come not from the drug companies but from state and federal immunization programs.

If this person should have any gripe, it's with the policy makers - who of course must have decided that causing thousands of cases of autism (and the associated economic burden) was far preferable to stopping a vaccination program.

Many of these drugs cause such horrible side-effects, they are worse than the symptoms they treat. NONE of them cure the illness that causes the disease. Who are the real quacks?

Some drugs cause horrible side effects. Cancer drugs in particular, although nowadays those can be mediated by other drugs far better than in years past.

But here's the thing. Many drugs DO cure the disease. Are they saying that antibiotics don't cure a bacterial infection? That cancer treatments don't have the capacity to remove cancer cells? If these people have a treatment that actually DOES cure disease better and easier, then bring it on. I assume they believe in homeopathy, which cures nothing, or herbal remedies, which may cure something but may be dangerous as well.

And for all the hype, vaccination doesn't work. It hasn't completely eradicated ALL the diseases it is meant to prevent. If it really worked, ALL the diseases would be long gone by now. People who get vaccinated still get the illnesses they are supposedly protected from.

Hopefully, I'm not totally parroting Eos here - there are a few reasons why vaccination hasn't completely eradicated all of the diseases they're meant to prevent:

-Not all parts of the world have received the vaccine in large enough numbers of long enough periods of time.

-The vaccine doesn't work in every single person.

-Not all of the vaccines are capable of totally elminating the disease. The current pertussis vaccine is an example of that.

That being said, it's impossible to say "vaccination doesn't work" when the number of reported cases of measles in the U.S. post-licensure dropped from 600,000 in the early 1960's to less than 50 today. When there are virtually no cases of diphtheria and polio in many parts of the world.

I've never been sure what the anti-vax alternative is. Stop vaccinating? Of course not - they just want people to have an "informed choice".

But wouldn't that informed choice cause vaccines rates to drop dramatically, I ask? No, they say, because most people are, well, too dumb to know the "real facts" about vaccines. So most people will vaccinate their kids anyway. (Isn't that convenient, though? They get to not vaccinate and be smart, while the dumb vaccinate - protecting them from many diseases via herd immunity in the process.)

[Eos of the Eons]

Crap! I just lost the post I spent 15 minutes writing!! Aughgh.

Hi Bill, Good Morning/Afternoon...trying to fit in posts to my busy schedule lately. Sigh.

Originally posted by crimresearch
INow that is a far cry from 'the training of a chiro', and we do a great disservice to the many ethical and scientific osteopaths who apply sound medical principles to their practice, when we use the actions of quacks to smear the entire profession.

:D Crim, call me duly Spanked...thanks!

Yes Mercola sure didn't give me a good impression of osteopaths. Why does he do what he does? Money? Attention? Nuttery? I can't even guess, and I hate conspiracy theories. Anybody that can give a definitive answer on that is most welcome to.

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by sodakboy93
AI've never been sure what the anti-vax alternative is. Stop vaccinating? Of course not - they just want people to have an "informed choice".

But wouldn't that informed choice cause vaccines rates to drop dramatically, I ask? No, they say, because most people are, well, too dumb to know the "real facts" about vaccines. So most people will vaccinate their kids anyway. (Isn't that convenient, though? They get to not vaccinate and be smart, while the dumb vaccinate - protecting them from many diseases via herd immunity in the process.)

Yeah sure, "informed choice"...yet they refuse to vaccinate. Not only that, but most have swallowed up those conspiracy theories and misinformation on MDs as a whole, and won't even take their kids to see them when they get the vaccine preventable diseases. Instead they go for the useless "alternatives". Then they show others how to get exemptions via mistruths and forgeries. Who is being unethical? I pity all those kids now being subjected to what may amount to neglect due to outright ignorance.

I just wish more people would spend time actually learning about microbes and the human body, and put more energy into that instead of wasting it on junk they could see right through if they did just learn more about how things actually work.

I'd have more links...but I'm not at home right now...any questions on the immune system and how vaccines work that I can help direct on later?

[crimresearch]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
:D Crim, call me duly Spanked...thanks!



Oh no! I didn't mean it like that...all disciplines have their woos...and a woo phase of their own history...
I was thinking that Mercola does double damage because he does have some letters to put after his name, so in addition to refuting his bogus claims we have to repair the perception about DOs...
Which isn't helped by the fact that apparently in England, DOs are much closer to chiropractors in training and practice...

Come to think of it, is Mercola an American woo?