Cancer/Infections and Iron relations?

[Kumar]

Hello all,

Looks like bit dull atmosphere.

Pls look at these quotes:-


Iron loading in specific tissues and increased risk for disease
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tissue type-- Disease

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alveolar macrophages-- Pulmonary neoplasia and infection
Anterior pituitary-- Gonadal and growth dysfunction

Aorta; carotid and
coronary arteries-- Atherosclerosis

Colorectal mucosa-- Adenoma, carcinoma, Heart Arrhythmia,
cardiomyopathy

Infant intestine-- Botulism, salmonellosis, sudden death
Joints Arthrop Liver Viral hepatis cirrhosis,
carcinoma

Macrophages-- Intracellular infections

Pancreas--- Acinar and beta cell necrosis, carcinoma

Plasma and lymph-- Extracellular infections

Skeletal system-- Osteoporosis

Skin--- Leprosy, melanoma

Soft tissue-- Sarcoma

Substantia nigra-- Parkinson's disease

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol5no3/weinberg.htm


The role of iron in cancer

Numerous laboratory and clinical investigations over the past few decades have observed that one of the dangers of iron is its ability to favour neoplastic cell growth. The metal is carcinogenic due to its catalytic effect on the formation of hydroxyl radicals, suppression of the activity of host defence cells and promotion of cancer cell multiplication. In both animals and humans, primary neoplasms develop at body sites of excessive iron deposits. The invaded host attempts to withhold iron from the cancer cells via sequestration of the metal in newly formed ferritin. The host also endeavours to withdraw the metal from cancer cells via macrophage synthesis of nitric oxide. Quantitative evaluation of body iron and of iron-withholding proteins has prognostic value in cancer patients. Procedures associated with lowering host iron intake and inducing host cell iron efflux can assist in prevention and management of neoplastic diseases. Pharmaceutical methods for depriving neoplastic cells of iron are being developed in experimental and clinical protocols.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8664805&dopt=Abstract

Do you have any idea about Iron overloed & cancers/Infections occurance & persistance?

Whether excess gastric acid secreations can cause excess iron digestion & so excess absorption resulting into all these problems?

How can you differenciate between excess iron in body and imbalanced iron distribution in body? I mean focal or generalized deposition within the tissues.

What pale/jaundiced skin, reddend skin and somewhat blank/hyperpigmented skin indicate?

Can it be better to have some low level of iron in body or occasionaly reduce it by with-holding iron, lowering gastric acid, fasting or otherwise to discourage cancer & infections esp. latent?

What about; "Iron is not excreted. The iron you absorb stays and accumulates in storage except that you can lose one milligram a day through hair, finger nails, skin cells(via sweat) and other detritus & blood loss?

This link gives some details onSerum iron levels. (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003488.htm)

Rest as usual. ;)

Best wishes.

[Kumar]

Just look at these snips:-

Fact Sheet: Iron overload; (http://www.ironoverload.org/facts.html)

12. A low iron diet is not recommended. Avoid alcohol, vitamin C additives and raw seafood. (Gastric acidity??)

13....Hemoglobin level does not indicate iron status. A disorder of thyroid or any part of the body can be a symptom of iron overload.

14. Excess iron lowers the immune system. Many diseases will show a poor outcome unless any excess iron is removed: AIDs, cancer and hepatitis, for example.

Hemochromatosis and Anemia Diet (http://www.ironoverload.org/Diet.html)

1. A low iron diet is not recommended or even possible to design. Iron is in everything and foods
that contain iron also provide other essential elements to help heal and rebuild the body.

6. What about anemia? Anemias are iron-loading, except for anemias resulting from chronic blood loss or tumor. When iron accumulates in storage instead being used by hemoglobin, the patient's hemoglobin will test low. Iron should not be administered. Instead the patient needs a complex of B vitamins, including B6, folate or folic acid and B12. The excess iron must be removed despite the anemia.

7. When low iron is found, it is essential to seek the source of the blood loss or cancer. Cancer cells require iron to proliferate. It is dangerous to medicate with iron without first knowing the iron levels and then discovering the reason for low iron.

10. Alcohol should be avoided until the de-ironing process is completed.

12. Those in protocol treatment will benefit from a B complex of vitamins, including B6, folic acid or folate and B12. Low doses of vitamin E - below 50 International Units daily is also beneficial.

14. Who should take iron? The only candidate for iron supplementation is an individual who has had large portions of gut removed.


more.......pls read.

[Deetee]

Originally posted by Kumar
10. Alcohol should be avoided until the de-ironing process is completed

According to my wife (who does the ironing), in my case there is usually a direct association between alcohol and the de-ironing process.

Originally posted by Kumar
more.......pls read.


Why should we?

[Kumar]

Can we think about inverse relationship between iron & body's defence/immune system? Whether defence system uses iron for effecting defence mechnisms/immunity or not? If not does it discourage iron? Why RBCs have iron whereas leucocytes, T cells etc. don't have? What about blood circulatoty system & lymphatic system?

[anonimouse]

Here's a fun idea. Someone with some technical skill should come up with a "Random Kumar Subject Title Generator".

It's easy.

The first part needs to refer to a disease or medical phenemon:

-Cancer
-Infection
-Autoimmunity

Etc, etc.

The second part needs to refer to either a vitamin, mineral, or some woo kind of philosophy.

-Iron
-Water Memory Storage
-Ph Balance

You can randomly generate some fun future Kumar posts:

"Cancer and Ph Balance Relations"
"Infection and Iron Relations"
"Autoimmunity and Water Memory Storage Relations"
"Genetic Disorders and Tissue Salt Relations"

Actually, I wonder if Kumar himself has already built this, and that's how he gets the idea for his posts. :)

[Deetee]

For some time now I have had the notion that Kumarbot is merely a rather malprogrammed, random word generator that compiles all of his posts, contents included.

Just look at his sig for a typical example.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by sodakboy93
Here's a fun idea. Someone with some technical skill should come up with a "Random Kumar Subject Title Generator".

It's easy.

The first part needs to refer to a disease or medical phenemon:

-Cancer
-Infection
-Autoimmunity

Etc, etc.

The second part needs to refer to either a vitamin, mineral, or some woo kind of philosophy.

-Iron
-Water Memory Storage
-Ph Balance

You can randomly generate some fun future Kumar posts:

"Cancer and Ph Balance Relations"
"Infection and Iron Relations"
"Autoimmunity and Water Memory Storage Relations"
"Genetic Disorders and Tissue Salt Relations"

Actually, I wonder if Kumar himself has already built this, and that's how he gets the idea for his posts. :)

Not bad ideas for future. Sometimes, something itches me; What is/can be the relations between TRs & yet unclear aspects? Getting some ideas from that & just to indicate & clear those irritations, new postings/ideas come to mind.:)

"Water Memory Storage", one word seems to be wrong to me in this. Just assume.;)

[Kumar]

Researchers at the Medical University of South Carolina in Charleston, S.C., found people with elevated levels of serum transferrin saturation -- an indicator of iron overload -- and who consume high levels of dietary iron, have an increased risk of cancer and cancer mortality.

Transferrin Saturation, Dietary Iron Intake, and Risk of Cancer
CONCLUSIONS: Among persons with increased transferrin saturation, a daily intake of dietary iron more than 18 mg is associated with an increased risk of cancer. Future research might focus on the benefits of dietary changes in those individuals with increased serum transferrin saturation.

http://annalsfm.highwire.org/cgi/content/abstract/3/2/131?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=cancer&searchid=1113473694695_52&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0&volume=3&issue=2&journalcode=annalsfm

Also think of excess gastric acid secretions in this respect.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Kumar
Researchers at the Medical University of South Carolina in Charleston, S.C., found people with elevated levels of serum transferrin saturation -- an indicator of iron overload -- and who consume high levels of dietary iron, have an increased risk of cancer and cancer mortality.

Let's all wave a happy greeting to the Good Grammar Fairy as she flutters by us once more.

[BillC]

Originally posted by Kumar
Can we think about inverse relationship between iron & body's defence/immune system? Whether defence system uses iron for effecting defence mechnisms/immunity or not? If not does it discourage iron? Why RBCs have iron whereas leucocytes, T cells etc. don't have? What about blood circulatoty system & lymphatic system? Why do you ask?

[Kumar]

Originally posted by BillC
Why do you ask?

That is a dynamic & important thought for you. Why I ask & reply both myself, if you don't reply, decid not to reply, become irritated temporarily--still feel something in heart & come back. "HE" makes you to feel that & bring you & me together again & again, may be for something good, hidden. So just don't manipulate, waste time in irritations & devoid the humanity/you/me for some dynamic/different knowledge. Just don't think otherwise as we are searching in jungles not in cities/banks.

[Eos of the Eons]

My blood iron is low, but not too low. I still got to give blood. I think I'm at "13". While I was pregnant I had to take iron supplements to make sure I didn't suffer any iron deficiency problems.

I hope kumar isn't suggesting people try to purge iron, or keep their intake low for the yet unproven increased risk of cancer due to iron overload. Who has too much iron? What kind of diet would lead to iron overload? Who is at risk?

And who are these "Iron Overload Diseases Association, INC. " weirdos? What are their qualifications?

RBCs have iron because they need to carry oxygen. No other cells need to perform that job.

Here, anybody can understand this:

Red blood cells contain an iron-rich protein called hemoglobin (pronounced: hee-muh-glow-bun). Blood gets its bright red color when hemoglobin in red blood cells picks up oxygen in the lungs.
http://kidshealth.org/parent/general/body_basics/blood.html

Not enough iron, not enough oxygen in the blood. The body needs oxygen. The lymphatic system needs oxygen.

Now, another organ with a lot of iron because of its relationship to blood in body is the liver.

Thing is, like I said before, what percentage of the population is at risk of having too much iron and how do they get that way? In the abstract it looks like body has its own way of dealing with cancer cells and keeping iron away from them. What are neoplastic diseases and how common are they?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

The answer is no.

[BillC]

Kumar, I am afraid I didn't understand your reply to me at all, despite reading it several times. You seem however, a little irritated that I asked it.

To restate the question: 'why do you ask about red blood cells, iron and the immune system?'. If you have an underlying goal behind asking these questions, perhaps you can tell us, and we can direct our responses along those lines.

[Kumar]

BillC,

Recently, My one relative got tested as suffering from TB Lymphatic adentitis. I was reading about it on internet. I happen to note all these iron problems. Previously, I also discussed about digestive pH imbalances, excess gastric acid secretions, antacids effects related to Iron, B12, calcium, folic acid digestion/absorptions. Thus, I am trying to understand this concept more deeply. This concept is also related to some basic/prime systems & somewhat systematic & constitutional effect.

Eos of the Eons,

I also want to understand this "Iron Overload/Imbalances" more deeply, since many links create couristies & confusions in this respect. Do google search "Iron overload" or "IronTB/ Cancer".

Higher than normal leavel indicate:-

Higher-than-normal levels may indicate:
hemochromatosis
hemolysis
hemolytic anemias
hemosiderosis
hepatic (liver) necrosis (tissue death)
hepatitis
vitamin B-12 deficiency, vitamin B-6 deficiency
iron poisoning
multiple blood transfusions
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003488.htm

"Hemochromatosis (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000327.htm) is a disorder that interferes with iron metabolism and results in excess iron deposits throughout the body.
Primary hemochromatosis is the most common genetic disorder in the US, affecting an estimated 1 of every 200-300 Americans. Similar symptoms may occur from the secondary form of hemochromatosis....First, excess iron accumulates in the liver and causes liver enlargement. Then, other organs are affected. The disease may lead to the development of diabetes, skin pigment changes, cardiac problems, arthritis, testicular atrophy, cirrhosis of the liver, liver cancer, hypopituitarism, chronic abdominal pain, severe fatigue, and increased risk of certain bacterial infections."


It is considered as genetic & was bit rare disorder. I think Diabetes & hypertension were also bit rare at much lower level in older times . But our genetic predispostion added with modern lifestyle & environment, can show some differerances or epidemic type increase. Diabetes, hypertention, may be TB/other latencies etc. are some example of this increase. You know mental stresses aided by modern lifestyle & environments can cause excess gastric acid secretions, so.......

[steenkh]

Originally posted by Kumar
Recently, My one relative got tested as suffering from TB Lymphatic adentitis. I was reading about it on internet. I happen to note all these iron problems. Previously, I also discussed about digestive pH imbalances, excess gastric acid secretions, antacids effects related to Iron, B12, calcium, folic acid digestion/absorptions. Thus, I am trying to understand this concept more deeply.
Actually, Kumar, I am impressed! I thought that you of all people would ensure that your relative would digest sugar pills sprayed with magic water!

When you try to look at other causes and remedies, it seems that you are not completely lost to reason.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Kumar
It is considered as genetic & was bit rare disorder. I think Diabetes & hypertension were also bit rare at much lower level in older times . But our genetic predispostion added with modern lifestyle & environment, can show some differerances or epidemic type increase. Diabetes, hypertention, may be TB/other latencies etc. are some example of this increase. You know mental stresses aided by modern lifestyle & environments can cause excess gastric acid secretions, so.......

What do you think happened to diabetics before insulin was available?

[El Greco]

Originally posted by Kumar
if you don't reply, decid not to reply, become irritated temporarily--still feel something in heart & come back. "HE" makes you to feel that & bring you & me together again & again, may be for something good, hidden.


"HE" ? Who's "HE" ? Godzilla ?

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Donks
What do you think happened to diabetics before insulin was available?

I have heard about three cases of my near realtive. They died at about 70. One diabetic patient with 30/40 year history is still healthy at about 77 with out insulin. Another with much care & on insulin is very sick at about 62. Few suffered heavily even on best medication/insulin, whereas other remained much well without same. Confusing/contradictory results are there. I know many diabetics lived 60+ with out taking insulin. I can't tell all details. Do you have any data of diabetic patients medicated with & without insulin.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
I have heard about three cases of my near realtive. They died at about 70. One diabetic patient with 30/40 year history is still healthy at about 77 with out insulin. Another with much care & on insulin is very sick at about 62. Few suffered heavily even on best medication/insulin, whereas other remained much well without same. Confusing/contradictory results are there. I know many diabetics lived 60+ with out taking insulin. I can't tell all details. Do you have any data of diabetic patients medicated with & without insulin. A nice piece of Kumar logic [tm].

Patient A is not very sick; patient A does not get much medicine.

Patient B is very sick; patient B gets much medicine.

Kumar conclusion: Medicine makes you sick.


Kumar, not all patients are alike. You could learn something from homeopaths there ;). Some diabetics need only a little extra exercise and more healthy food. Others need some oral medicine. And some are entirely insulin dependent.

If you deprive an insulin dependent patient of insulin, he will eventually die. He can be kept alive for some time with a very strict diet, but will suffer severe effects of the disease, and his life will be significantly shortened.

Before insulin was invented, type 1 diabetics had a very poor outlook.

Type 2 is different, in that far from all type 2 diabetics progress to insulin dependency.

Hans

[Dr. Imago]

This thread responses (thus far) totals:

Kumar (including OP): 8
Deetee: 2
sodakboy93: 1
Badly Shaved Monkey: 1
BillC: 2
Eos of the Eons: 1
The Central Scrutinizer: 1 (and the "best" response so far)
steenkh: 1
Donks: 1
El Greco: 1
MRC_Hans: 1
ThirdTwin: 1

From this, I conclude that Kumarbot is mostly feeding himself. But, it seems that we have a regular cast of characters (presented company, of course, included) that seem to be routinely taking the bait (but, please note that my contribution here is truly and mostly academic :D ).

No other point but that.

-TT

[Donks]

Originally posted by ThirdTwin
From this, I conclude that Kumarbot is mostly feeding himself. But, it seems that we have a regular cast of characters (presented company, of course, included) that seem to be routinely taking the bait (but, please note that my contribution here is truly and mostly academic :D ).

No other point but that.

-TT
Well, I only joined the Anti-Kumar Brigade because I was told there were lots of hot chicks involved, and that the cast member parties were quasi-orgies.

[Iamme]

Kumar---According to Kevin Trudeau the cure for cancer...and even the not getting it in the first place has to do with your bodies ph. If you are acidic you will get cancer. If you are alkaline you can*NOT* get cancer!Youcan change your ph by various means. Your bodies ph can be the way it is even because of your attitude!!!

Coincidence: As I just began to post this, the infomercial with Kevin Trudeau, on this very subject came on!!! What in the world?!?! It's on right now, over my left shoulder!

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Donks
Well, I only joined the Anti-Kumar Brigade because I was told there were lots of hot chicks involved, and that the cast member parties were quasi-orgies.

Hey, guess what! For no good reason, I'd led myself to think you possessed 2 X-chromosomes. Funny how your picture of someone on a forum can prove to be so wrong (which would still be true even if you do have XX but like the ladies anyway).

[Donks]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Hey, guess what! For no good reason, I'd led myself to think you possessed 2 X-chromosomes. Funny how your picture of someone on a forum can prove to be so wrong (which would still be true even if you do have XX but like the ladies anyway).
Not sure how to respond, it's the first time I'm mistaken for a female :) I better start doing more manly things to avoid confusion.
Online my bias is to assume everyone is male until proven otherwise.

[ReFLeX]

Originally posted by El Greco
"HE" ? Who's "HE" ? Godzilla ?
Originally posted by Kumar
Every knowledgable person tells that supreme power creates, operates & destroys this universe.

Duh.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Donks
Not sure how to respond, it's the first time I'm mistaken for a female :) I better start doing more manly things to avoid confusion.
Online my bias is to assume everyone is male until proven otherwise.

I have no real idea why I made the assumption. Weird, huh?

[Rolfe]

I just leave that quote from Snoopy in my sig to confuse people even more. Fun, what?

Rolfe.

XX

[ReFLeX]

And here I thought Rolfe was a male name...

[Kumar]

I think this topic belongs to bit new knowledge so not known to you. I can feel it in consideration of posting qualities. Anyway thanks.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Kumar
I think this topic belongs to bit new knowledge so not known to you. I can feel it in consideration of posting qualities. Anyway thanks.
Or perhaps you have finally exhausted everyone here and noone is currently willing to reply to you with anything of value.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Donks
Or perhaps you have finally exhausted everyone here and noone is currently willing to reply to you with anything of value.

No, I don't think so. Inspite of everything, I know that if anyone knows, he do post.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Kumar
No, I don't think so. Inspite of everything, I know that if anyone knows, he do post.

I already have. Again, the answer is no.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by ReFLeX
And here I thought Rolfe was a male name... The cat was called Rolfe. It was actually the surname of the people who used to own him, before I adopted him. I never knew his original name.

I copied the idea from The Princess Diaries, where the girl's email handle is "ftlouie" because her cat is called Fat Louie.

Rolfe.

PS. A veterinary email group I belong to has just wound up a very long and detailed discussion with an off-the-wall researcher who is riding the hypothesis that diabetes in the horse is related to iron overload. She's perfectly serious, but her evidence doesn't stand up.

We've been through the literature with the proverbial fine-tooth comb, and everyone on the list has contributed relevant case studies, and frankly I doubt if Kumar could understand more than one word in ten.

Maybe one day it will occur to him that some of us are fed up throwing pearls before this particular swine, and that trying to explain complex concepts to someone who neither can nor wants to understand becomes tedious after a while.

OK, Kumar, I know nothing about this subject, and you are the expert. Now go away.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Rolfe
.

OK, Kumar, I know nothing about this subject, and you are the expert. Now go away.

Can't say, I just count & account my earnings.

"The body does not have a way to get rid of iron except when there is bleeding"

How we can relate iron overload with natural bleeding as excess menses, bleeding from tooth etc.?

[Donks]

Originally posted by Kumar
"The body does not have a way to get rid of iron except when there is bleeding"
So, there is no iron in urine, faeces, sweat or shed cells? Did you bother researching? No? Thought so.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Donks
So, there is no iron in urine, faeces, sweat or shed cells? Did you bother researching? No? Thought so.

Just appx. 1 mg per day is not getting rid of excess iron? Other outlets are indicated in previous links.

[Kumar]

Can bleeding, getting injuries etc. be a natural body reaction not just an accident--to get rid of excess/imbalanced iron from body?:)

[Donks]

Originally posted by Kumar
Can bleeding, getting injuries etc. be a natural body reaction not just an accident--to get rid of excess/imbalanced iron from body?:)
This has to be your oddest theory to date. Forget "partial excitations", this one takes the cake.

ETA: Oh, I forgot to tell you. It was 100 years last month that Einstein showed that part excitations are wrong. So you're 100 years behind, and counting.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
"The body does not have a way to get rid of iron except when there is bleeding"

And where did you cut and paste that little piece of "wisdom"?

Nevermind, I can tell you it is wrong. Make an experiment, Kumar:

1) Go to your friendly local pharmacy and purchase some iron supplementary pills (don't worry, they are cheap and harmless).

3) Take three pills a day for a week.

4) During that time, note the color of your feces.

You will observe that your feces turns black, because your body is ridding itself of the surplus iron you took.

-- Next theory :rolleyes:.

Hans

[Kumar]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
And where did you cut and paste that little piece of "wisdom"?

Nevermind, I can tell you it is wrong. Make an experiment, Kumar:

1) Go to your friendly local pharmacy and purchase some iron supplementary pills (don't worry, they are cheap and harmless).

3) Take three pills a day for a week.

4) During that time, note the color of your feces.

You will observe that your feces turns black, because your body is ridding itself of the surplus iron you took.

-- Next theory :rolleyes:.

Hans

No, that had not absorbed in body & just excreated without absorption.

The average adult stores about 1 to 3 grams of iron in his or her body. An exquisite balance between dietary uptake and loss maintains this balance. About 1 mg of iron is lost each day through sloughing of cells from skin and mucosal surfaces, including the lining of the gastrointestinal tract (Cook et al., 1986). Menstration increases the average daily iron loss to about 2 mg per day in premenopausal female adults (Bothwell and Charlton, 1982). No physiologic mechanism of iron excretion exists. Consequently, absorption alone regulates body iron stores (McCance and Widdowson, 1938). The augmentation of body mass during neonatal and childhood growth spurts transiently boosts iron requirements (Gibson et al., 1988).
http://sickle.bwh.harvard.edu/iron_absorption.html

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
No, that had not absorbed in body & just excreated without absorption. And why do you think it was not absorbed? Because your body already had enough. There is iron in most things you ingest, including tab water, so your body absorbs what it needs and excretes the rest.

Edited to add (observe that I make a note if I make a significant change to a post): I see you edited in a reference. And a reference that proves my point: The body keeps a perfect balance through regulating the uptake.

Hans

[Kumar]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
And a reference that proves my point: The body keeps a perfect balance through regulating the uptake.

Hans

Yes, under normal health conditions. What about under abnormal health condition? What about under mental stess? What about taking modern foods & living under polluted environment?

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
Yes, under normal health conditions. What about under abnormal health condition? What about under mental stess? What about taking modern foods & living under polluted environment? What about it? What is your evidence that excess iron would be the cause of diseases? What is your evidence that stress, pollution, or modern foods changes the iron balance? Or did you just pull the idea out of your hat?

Note: You forgot to write in Kumarese. For instance, you forgot to misspell "modern".

Hans

[Kumar]

Mr.Hans,

Sorry, I think you have not read several links I have provided in this topic. If not you can check at http://www.medicinenet.com/iron_overload/index.htm OR http://www.google.co.in/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=iron+overload&btnG=Google+Search&meta=.

I think, one mechnism of body to change iron absorption, is by change in gastric acid secretion--due to which iron will not be properly digested so not absorbed. Mental stesses & other unnaturalities can enhance gastric acid secretion so more digestion so more absorption. Just read side effects of antacids.

[MRC_Hans]

Where is the indication that excess iron can cause cancer, or infections, as you claim?

Sure, there is a pathological condition of iron overload (too much of ANYTHING will make you ill), but the symptoms are (from here (http://www.merck.com/mrkshared/mmanual/section11/chapter128/128a.jsp) ):


Focal hemosiderosis chiefly occurs in the lungs and kidneys and is the result of other obvious disease processes. Pulmonary hemosiderosis caused by recurrent pulmonary hemorrhage occurs as an idiopathic entity, as part of Goodpasture's syndrome, or in severe mitral stenosis.

....

Genetic hemochromatosis is uncommonly symptomatic before middle age. Of affected men, 80 to 90% have total body Fe stores > 10 g before symptoms develop.

.....

In women, fatigue and nonspecific constitutional symptoms are early findings; in men, cirrhosis or diabetes is often the initial presentation. The clinical findings of advanced Fe deposition can include hepatocellular dysfunction and even cirrhosis, bronze skin pigmentation, diabetes mellitus (overt in 50 to 60% of patients), and cardiomyopathy manifested by cardiomegaly, heart failure, and arrhythmias or conduction disturbances. Pituitary failure is common and may be the cause of testicular atrophy and loss of libido, which are frequent. Abdominal pain, arthritis, and chondrocalcinosis occur less often.


Where are you "cancer/infections" ?

I think, one mechnism of body to change iron absorption, is by change in gastric acid secretion--due to which iron will not be properly digested so not absorbed.

And your reference for that? (or, failing that, your logic behind it)

Hans

[Kumar]

Mr.Hans,

You can read:-

There is growing awareness that transmissible agents are involved in diseases not earlier suspected of being infectious (44-46). A recent review contains a list of 34 degenerative, inflammatory, and neoplastic diseases associated in various ways with specific infectious agents (44). Other chronic inflammatory diseases, such as sarcoidosis, inflammatory bowel disease, rheumatoid arthritis, systemic lupus erythematosus, Wegener granulomatosis, diabetes mellitus, primary biliary cirrhosis, tropical sprue, and Kawasaki disease may also have infectious etiologies (45). Excessive iron is correlated with synovial damage in rheumatoid arthritis (47) and with impaired glucose metabolism in diabetes (48). The association of Chlamydia pneumoniae (49) and excessive iron (5) with cardiovascular disease is well established. Growth of this pathogen is strongly suppressed by iron restriction (50).

Proving the role of infection in chronic inflammatory diseases and cancer presents challenges (46). The means by which pathogens suppress, subvert, or evade host defenses to establish chronic or latent infection have received little attention. However, the association and causal role of infectious agents in chronic inflammatory diseases and cancer have major implications for public health, treatment, and prevention (44-46).

Iron loading is a risk factor in these illnesses, as well as in classic infectious diseases. Because the prevalence of iron loading in various populations can be remarkably high, routine screening of iron values in host populations could provide valuable information in epidemiologic, diagnostic, prophylactic, and therapeutic studies of emerging infectious diseases.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol5no3/weinberg.htm

CANCER; Iron can reactivate a latent infection or tumour. In one experiment they put rats on severely restricted low calorie diets and these starved animals lived a lot longer than those on normal diets. The iron content of the food was subsequently identified as the major life-shortening factor rather than calories. In a study in Carcinogenesis, 1991, three groups of rats were given iron deficient, regular or excess iron diets, then injected with a carcinogen. The rats on the low iron diet developed a lower rate of cancer, and the rats on the elevated iron diet had higher rates of cancer. When the iron in their diet was removed, their cancer rate decreased. Iron feeds cancer cells and causes them to metastasize. Many studies have shown that up to 88% of metastasized breast cancer patients have elevated serum ferritin. Cancerous breasts have three times as much iron as normal breasts.

Excessive copper is often involved in cancer and may be a risk factor in estrogen-dependent cancers. Research has shown that there is a 72% increase in the copper content of malignant tumours of the ovary, uterus and cervix (Cancer, Sep 1983). Other studies have shown similar high copper contents in breast cancers. Estrogen increases copper absorption, causing your copper levels to rise. This may occur when you take birth control pills or hormone replacement therapy (Journal of Fertility and Sterility, Nov 1979).

INFECTIONS; Dr. Randal Lauffer of Harvard University and other experts believe that mild iron deficiency may be beneficial in some disease states. People who are malnourished may be more resistant to infectious diseases than well-nourished people. It has been noted in times of famine that infectious illnesses such as tuberculosis and malaria are suppressed during starvation and reactivated when refeeding programs are instituted. They began testing iron levels and found that when iron levels rose, infections increased.
http://www.consumerhealth.org/artic...=19990303204921

Some more:

Healthy people usually absorb about 10 percent of the iron contained in the food they eat to meet the body needs. People with hemochromatosis absorb more than the body needs. The body has no natural way to rid itself of the excess iron, so it is stored in body tissues, especially the liver, heart, and pancreas.

http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/hemochromatosis/

Transferrin Saturation, Dietary Iron Intake, and Risk of Cancer
CONCLUSIONS: Among persons with increased transferrin saturation, a daily intake of dietary iron more than 18 mg is associated with an increased risk of cancer. Future research might focus on the benefits of dietary changes in those individuals with increased serum transferrin saturation.

http://annalsfm.highwire.org/cgi/co...alcode=annalsfm

Cross-Talk Between Iron Metabolism and Diabetes (http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/51/8/2348) http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C518176.html

[MRC_Hans]

Where is the reference to gastric acid?

And, what is your point, generally?

Hans

[Kumar]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Where is the reference to gastric acid?

And, what is your point, generally?

Hans

INTERACTIONS
DRUGS

Acid Pump Inhibitors: (lansoprazole, omeprazole, pantoprazole, rabeprazole): Use of acid pump inhibitors may suppress the absorption of carbonyl iron.

Antacids: Aluminum-or magnesium-containing antacids may decrease the absorption of iron if used concomitantly.

H2 Blockers (cimetidine, famotidine, nizatidine, ranitidine): Use of H2 blockers may suppress the absorption of carbonyl iron.

http://www.pdrhealth.com/drug_info/nmdrugprofiles/nutsupdrugs/iro_0149.shtml

More you can find under antacids.

How modern epidemic type increase in many diseases, latent infections, diabetes, hypertension, cancer etc. can be related to ' iron overload & increase in gastric acid secretions by mental stresses due modern lifestyle & environment?

[MRC_Hans]

Duh. They say that acid suppressors will inhibit iron uptake. That is the opposite of your claim, remember?

Kumar, you are citing thousands of lines of reports of complex research. If there were some linear connections don't you recon those researchers would have noticed?

Hans

[Kumar]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Duh. They say that acid suppressors will inhibit iron uptake. That is the opposite of your claim, remember?

Kumar, you are citing thousands of lines of reports of complex research. If there were some linear connections don't you recon those researchers would have noticed?

Hans

When will you understand it? When acid blocker & antacids will inhibit iron uptake, will excess gastric acid not improve iron uptake? We are talking about iron overload due to excess gastric acid.

Extra Iron Proven to Cause Diabetes

A study has found that increased levels of iron are linked to a greater risk for type 2 diabetes in healthy women independent of common diabetes risk factors, such as obesity.

http://www.mercola.com/2004/mar/10/iron_diabetes.htm

CONCLUSION: Higher iron stores (reflected by an elevated ferritin concentration and a lower ratio of transferrin receptors to ferritin) are associated with an increased risk of type 2 diabetes in healthy women independent of known diabetes risk factors.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14871914&dopt=Abstract

It is very important understanding. Many people by reddend, pale, blakish/bronze focal or overall body clour can indicate something.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
When will you understand it? When acid blocker & antacids will inhibit iron uptake, will excess gastric acid not improve iron uptake?

You cannot make that conclusion.

We are talking about iron overload due to excess gastric acid.

No, YOU are talking about it. Not we.

It is very important understanding. Many people by reddend, pale, blakish/bronze focal or overall body clour can indicate something.

Or it may indicate that you are in India.

Kumar, iron metabolism is very well explored. You won't be able to teach science anything in that area.

The site with claim about the iron-diabetes link is a woo woo site. There is a lot of research going on about diabetes. If there was a single link to iron uptake, we would know.

Hans

[Kumar]

Hemochromatosis Symptoms
Joint pain
Fatigue
Lack of energy
Weight loss
Generalized darkening of skin color (often referred to as bronzing)
Abdominal pain
Loss of sexual desire
Testicular atrophy
Loss of body hair
Weakness
Heart problems
Symptoms related to the onset of diabetes
www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/hemochromatosis.html

arthritis


liver disease, including an enlarged liver, cirrhosis, cancer, and liver failure


damage to the pancreas, possibly causing diabetes


heart abnormalities, such as irregular heart rhythms or congestive heart failure


impotence


early menopause


abnormal pigmentation of the skin, making it look gray or bronze


thyroid deficiency


damage to the adrenal gland

Scientists hope that further study of HFE will reveal how the body normally metabolizes iron. They also want to learn how iron injures cells and whether it contributes to organ damage in other diseases, such as alcoholic liver disease, hepatitis C, porphyria cutanea tarda, heart disease, reproductive disorders, cancer, autoimmune hepatitis, diabetes, and joint disease. Scientists are also working to find out why only some patients with HFE mutations get the disease.
digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/hemochromatosis/



I think these are acceptable link to you. These tells Hemochromatosis presents Symptoms related to the onset of diabetes & iron metabolism not yet fully understood.

[Iamme]

Originally posted by Kumar
Can bleeding, getting injuries etc. be a natural body reaction not just an accident--to get rid of excess/imbalanced iron from body?:)

--------------------------------------------

A "throw the baby out with the bath water" theory? (i.e., you are trying to get rid of iron in the blood, not the blood itself, that happens to be carrying iron.)

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by Kumar
--------------------------------------------

Can bleeding, getting injuries etc. be a natural body reaction not just an accident--to get rid of excess/imbalanced iron from body?

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Can a person actually seriously even come up with such a "theory"??

*Oooops, I cut myself chopping veggies...could I have too much iron in my blood?*

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
:eek: :eek: :eek:

Can a person actually seriously even come up with such a "theory"??

*Oooops, I cut myself chopping veggies...could I have too much iron in my blood?*

Can't some symptoms of iron overload cause you, to get injuries?

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
I think these are acceptable link to you. These tells Hemochromatosis presents Symptoms related to the onset of diabetes & iron metabolism not yet fully understood. Kumar, I suggest you stop reading medical texts. You are evidently not capable of understanding them. Don't feel bad about this; they are not written for the lay-man.

Just leave serious research to serious reserchers, OK?

Hans

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
Can't some symptoms of iron overload cause you, to get injuries? Why don't you actually read the list you presented yourself (you can look up the hard words) :


Hemochromatosis Symptoms:

Joint pain
Fatigue
Lack of energy
Weight loss
Generalized darkening of skin color (often referred to as bronzing)
Abdominal pain
Loss of sexual desire
Testicular atrophy
Loss of body hair
Weakness
Heart problems


Can you see any of them that would cause you to get injuries?

Hans :nope:

[Kumar]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Why don't you actually read the list you presented yourself (you can look up the hard words) :



Can you see any of them that would cause you to get injuries?

Hans :nope: Joint pain ,Fatigue ,Lack of energy, Abdominal pain, Weakness ,Heart problems etc. may do something. Confusions, imbalances, tremers, anger, hot flushes may also be there to caise injuries.

However, Loss of sexual desire & Testicular atrophy may prevent it.;) Iron overload may be progressing alike older diabetes type I, genetic predipostions to it, modern epidemeic spread as type II.

Now let us check it:

I think there is a belief that 'cancer can br much faster & somewhat difficult to treat after surgery is performed, but all cells couldn't be removed. Is it right? How can we link latent/dormant conditions, iron & recurrences of diseases? Let us look at cancer recurrences:-



What is recurrence?


When cancer returns after a period of remission, it's considered a recurrence. This happens because some cells from your initial cancer were left behind after treatment. It can also happen when cancerous cells leave the original site where your cancer was found and hide in another place in your body. These cancer cells continued to multiply, resulting in the reappearance of the cancer you thought had been removed during your previous treatment.
Most often it's the same cancer, but in some cases you can be diagnosed with a new cancer that isn't related to your first cancer. That’s referred to as a second primary cancer.


Your cancer can recur in the same place it was originally located, or it can travel to other parts of your body. Recurrence is divided into three categories:

Local recurrence. This means the cancer reappears in the same place it was first found, or very close by. The cancer hasn't spread to the lymph nodes or other parts of the body.

Regional recurrence. A regional recurrence occurs in the lymph nodes and tissue located in the vicinity of your original cancer.

Distant recurrence. This refers to cancer that has spread (metastasized) to areas farther away from where your cancer was first located...
..Many gains have been made in the treatment of cancer recurrences. In many cases, local and regional recurrences can be treated successfully. However, cancer that has spread to distant locations is less likely to be cured.
While some people achieve a cure by treating their cancer recurrences, in some cases a cure isn't possible.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/invoke.cfm?id=CA00050


Suppose, there is no spread & cancer still is at tumor stage under 4th stage AND a surgery is performed but all cancer cells couldn't be removed/killed. Will then these leftover cancer cells multiply & spread very fast due to there direct exposure to blood & getting more iron from body?

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
Joint pain ,Fatigue ,Lack of energy, Abdominal pain, Weakness ,Heart problems etc. may do something. Confusions, imbalances, tremers, anger, hot flushes may also be there to caise injuries.

Nonsense.

However, Loss of sexual desire & Testicular atrophy may prevent it.;)

Even worse nonsense.

Iron overload may be progressing alike older diabetes type I, genetic predipostions to it, modern epidemeic spread as type II.

More nonsense.

Now let us check it:

I think there is a belief that 'cancer can br much faster & somewhat difficult to treat after surgery is performed, but all cells couldn't be removed. Is it right? How can we link latent/dormant conditions, iron & recurrences of diseases? Let us look at cancer recurrences:-

"Us"?? Kumar, you cannot check anything. You don't understand half of the texts you cite.

Suppose, there is no spread & cancer still is at tumor stage under 4th stage AND a surgery is performed but all cancer cells couldn't be removed/killed. Will then these leftover cancer cells multiply & spread very fast due to there direct exposure to blood & getting more iron from body?

No, they are spread because the operation trauma releases them into the blood-stream.

Kumar, this is my last reply to this silly nonsense. You don't have a clue, and you evidently aren't going to get a clue.

Why don't you go over at Otherhealth and continue your nonsense there? They won't mind you blabbering about iron. They won't understand it either, but over there understanding is not mandatory.

Hans

[Kumar]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Kumar, this is my last reply to this silly nonsense. You don't have a clue, and you evidently aren't going to get a clue.

Why don't you go over at Otherhealth and continue your nonsense there? They won't mind you blabbering about iron. They won't understand it either, but over there understanding is not mandatory.

Hans

Clues may be there in my TRS.:)

No, they are spread because the operation trauma releases them into the blood-stream.

Yes, but it is a truma by operation.

"Cancer spreads (metastasizes) when cancer cells break away from the original (primary) tumor and travel through the bloodstream or lymphatic system to other parts of your body."

Why cancer cells do not much spread when in tumor? What causes, break away from the original (primary) tumor? Whether multiplying of cancer cells in tumor & at other open sites is with same intensity?

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
*snip*
Why cancer cells do not much spread when in tumor? What causes, break away from the original (primary) tumor? Whether multiplying of cancer cells in tumor & at other open sites is with same intensity? [/B]A cancer tumor grows, and at some point it becomes unstable and starts spreading. I once heard someone liken it to a bucket of water: You can pour water in, and it just stays there, but at a certain point, the bucket overflows, and the water spreads all over the place.

Different types of cancer have different growth rates, and different stability. This is the reason some cancers are more dangerous than others. Some grow slowly, and tumors can get get basketball-sized before they metastase. Others grow quicly and become unstable quickly.

Surgery can make a tumor unstable. This is the reason surgeons have to be careful to get the whole tumor. This is also the reason biopsies are not always used.

Metastases are children of the original tumor, and generally retain its characteristics with respect to growth rate and stability. Thus, a tumor that originates in the lung is lung cancer (there is more than one type of lung cancer, btw), but a metastase in the lung is not lung cancer if the mother tumor is elsewhere.

Hans

[Kumar]

HEMOCHROMATOSIS AND ACQUIRED IRON OVERLOAD There are basically two types of iron overload, the hereditary kind known as hemochromatosis, and the acquired form. The average north American diet is overloaded with iron, and research shows that iron levels tend to rise with age. Once you absorb too much iron it stays with you for life. We lose only one mg. of iron a day through perspiration, urinary and fecal excretion. There is no easy exit except through phlebotomy (bleeding), giving blood, or medical treatment like chelation.

RISK FACTORS FOR IRON OVERLOAD The risk factors for acquired iron overload are: excessive ingestion of red meat; iron supplements or injections when you don't need them; foods that are iron fortified; iron cookware; tap water (use a water purifier or reverse osmosis to remove it); alcohol; cigarette smoking; oral contraceptives; lack of exercise (we lose iron when we sweat); too many blood transfusions (you not only get somebody else's bacteria and viruses, you also get the iron to feed them, and they flourish on iron); taking vitamin C with foods can increase iron absorption.

DIAGNOSIS OF IRON LEVELS Most doctors will treat the disease caused by the iron overload and not the iron overload itself. Too many medical doctors are misdiagnosing women as being iron deficient and prescribing iron when it is not really necessary. Iron overload is not really a rare disease but a correct diagnosis is rare. The blood test alone can often be misleading.

TESTS FOR EXCESS IRON:

Hemoglobin and serum iron are the tests usually performed by doctors when they are testing your iron levels. This is usually reliable if the iron test results are elevated, but if it is low or normal, these tests can be misleading. Low hemoglobin does not always mean iron deficiency because there are many different kinds of anemias, and hemoglobin may be low for reasons other than iron deficiency. In Sideroblastic Anemia, iron is low in the blood but high in the tissues. When your hemoglobin goes down below 10 you may have iron deficiency anemia, but you have to do the other tests as well to get the complete picture.

Serum iron becomes low during infections and certain disease states like inflammations and cancer, or if you are losing blood as in a gastrointestinal bleed which you may not even be aware of. The lowering of serum iron levels is the body's defence mechanism to remove iron from the blood stream by transferring it deep within the tissues. This keeps it away from foreign invaders like bacteria, viruses, fungi, parasites and cancer cells which all need iron to survive. By taking iron supplements, you are just feeding them and perpetuating the problem.

Not all doctors test for serum ferritin. Serum ferritin is actually just a storage bin which can hold a large number of iron molecules. In an infection, the iron will go into ferritin where it is safer than if it gets into the cells where it can cause more damage. The normal level of serum ferritin shouldn't go above 50. Some people can get sick when it's as low as 50. At the level of 80, there is an increased risk of heart attack.

Transferrin saturation is another test. Transferrin transports iron to different parts of the body where it is needed. It is usually low during an infection.

One of the most reliable tests is the deferoxamine challenge. This test is not affected by any disease states. It measures intracellular or free iron which is a very dangerous kind of iron. You can have a low ferritin and yet have very high intracellular iron. Deferoxamine also measures and removes excess aluminum, copper and small amounts of mercury. It can be used as a treatment as well as a test. ..
CANCER Iron can reactivate a latent infection or tumour. In one experiment they put rats on severely restricted low calorie diets and these starved animals lived a lot longer than those on normal diets. The iron content of the food was subsequently identified as the major life-shortening factor rather than calories. In a study in Carcinogenesis, 1991, three groups of rats were given iron deficient, regular or excess iron diets, then injected with a carcinogen. The rats on the low iron diet developed a lower rate of cancer, and the rats on the elevated iron diet had higher rates of cancer. When the iron in their diet was removed, their cancer rate decreased. Iron feeds cancer cells and causes them to metastasize. Many studies have shown that up to 88% of metastasized breast cancer patients have elevated serum ferritin. Cancerous breasts have three times as much iron as normal breasts.
http://www.consumerhealth.org/articles/display.cfm?ID=19990303204921

Mr. Hans,

Thanks. Main issue here is whether exposure of blood/iron to cancer cells, can cause them to multiply fast or not?

The above quote indicate accordingly, but can't say how far it is correct.

[Eos of the Eons]

CRAP! Crap crap crap. You might as well have wrote that drivel.



Rebecca Lavie is a former special education teacher

And suddenly she's a cancer expert???

Come on!

[Kiless]

Originally posted by Rolfe
The cat was called Rolfe. It was actually the surname of the people who used to own him, before I adopted him. I never knew his original name.

I copied the idea from The Princess Diaries, where the girl's email handle is "ftlouie" because her cat is called Fat Louie.


I read them too! Well, after they were recommended to me. I've got books one to six. Perhaps I should change my handle to 'Xena'?

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
Mr. Hans,

Thanks. Main issue here is whether exposure of blood/iron to cancer cells, can cause them to multiply fast or not?

Translation: There was nothing in your explanation I could use to support my thesis, so I'll just flutter on.

The above quote indicate accordingly, but can't say how far it is correct.

There is absolutely no reason to trust that text. The website you got it from is a woo site that sells all kind of silly alternative stuff. .... Oh, YOU might find that reassuring, but the rest of us won't.

Hans

[Kumar]

What about this;

Too much iron could increase cancer risk

New U.S. research suggests that eating a lot of iron-rich foods may increase the risk of cancer. The research raises questions about fortifying foods with the mineral.
www.news-medical.net/?id=8815

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - The combination of high iron stores in the body and a high iron intake from food could raise a person's risk of cancer,
www.mercksource.com/pp/us/ cns/cns_news_article.jspzQzidzEz359802

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
What about this; What about it? These are about excess intakes. Kumar, practically everything, with water as a possible exception, will probably increase your risk of cancer if you get a sufficient overdose of it (unless it kills you first in another way).

What is your entire point about all this?

Hans

[Kumar]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
What is your entire point about all this?

Hans

There may be an inverse relationship between Iron & latencies. Body may be withholding iron on getting latency & activation of latent conditions may be triggered by excess iron in body( by increase in gastric acid secretions, Iron supplemrnts, red meat etc.).

[Iamme]

My body can't get rid of excess water and that's why I cry.:D

[Iamme]

Hmmm. How does my excess semen get out?::wink8:

[Iamme]

My aunt couldn't get rid of her excess over indulgence of carrots, and turned orange. (Well, quite yellow, with orange callouses)

[Iamme]

If you ate too much iron, maybe you would have to stay away from magnets....or a compass.

[Donks]

lamme: You know you can edit your posts for up to an hour (or is it 2?), right? You don't need to make 4 posts in under 10 minutes, on the same topic, wihtout actually replying to anyone in the thread.

[Rolfe]

On the other hand, it may be a valid response to the subject matter of this thread. :D

Rolfe.

[Iamme]

Donks---Okay. I am now advised. Maybe it's the other board I am on that only gives you 5 minutes.

As silly as the premise is about the iron in the blood and bleeding as a way to get rid of the excess, it does cause one to stop and think.

In this life of ours, there are so many other things that have more than one reason for something.

For all we might know, maybe coughing is intended to spread germs so that people help develop an immune system for what just got coughed on them. Silly? Maybe. Maybe not.

[Eos of the Eons]

*snort* I give blood every 56 days. I'm SURE I'll NEVER have too much iron now!!;) :p ;) :p

[ReFLeX]

Originally posted by Iamme
For all we might know, maybe coughing is intended to spread germs so that people help develop an immune system for what just got coughed on them. Silly? Maybe. Maybe not.
Coughing is "intended"? Intended by whom? If it develops naturally, then why should it have a single purpose?

[Kumar]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
What about it? These are about excess intakes. Kumar, practically everything, with water as a possible exception, will probably increase your risk of cancer if you get a sufficient overdose of it (unless it kills you first in another way).

What is your entire point about all this?

Hans

We should therefore look, everythig which in "excess". Most natural, practice of fasting (which we may not be doing due to "lost naturalities") may be gifted for thi purpose only. Excess of everything is said to be bad. Plain tapwater is also bit acidic.:)

[Kumar]

There is an anemia which is "anemia of chronic disease".

Anemia of chronic disease has fewer and milder clinical manifestations than most other anemias, but it depends on the degree of the anemia. This type of anemia does not respond to iron replacement therapy because the iron is unable to reach the bone marrow. Therefore, the treatment of choice is the alleviation of the underlying disorder. The anemia itself does not require treatment unless it becomes symptomatic.

Three mechanisms are generally responsible for anemia of chronic disease:

decreased erythocyte life span,
failure of mechanisms of compensatory erythropoiesis, and
disturbances of the iron cycle.

Infection caused by a toxin from an infective agent, usually a microorganism, can sometimes inhibit the production of red cells by the bone marrow. While these bacteria, viruses, fungi, or parasites are known to produce disease, long term infections can eventually cause such secondary conditions as anemia.

At the onset of an infection, blood iron rapidly declines as iron moves into the liver for storage. This shift helps fight the infection by depriving the infecting microorganisms of the body's iron, which they may require for their own metabolism. However, along with this life-saving mechanism also comes the inability to make new hemoglobin, resulting in anemia.

This type of anemia reflects the body's normal physiological response to infection and does not respond to iron, folate, or vitamin B12 supplementation or to any other dietary or medical treatment. In fact, providing large doses of iron, or other nutrients, can actually worsen the infection as the microorganisms gain strength by feeding on the supplements intended for the host. Without any intervention, the liver will eventually return iron to the blood as the infection resolves.
http://www.innvista.com/health/ailments/anemias/anemchro.htm

This type of anemia develops as a result of extended infection or inflammation.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000565.htm

It looks that we gets anemic conditions on getting any chronic disease, latent condition etc. But, whether it is a normal immune/defence response or by causing agents is not clear?

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
*snip*
It looks that we gets anemic conditions on getting any chronic disease, latent condition etc. But, whether it is a normal immune/defence response or by causing agents is not clear? This, in a very short way, shows one of your basic mistakes, Kumar.

Look at the statement above (edited for grammar):

"It looks like..."

"Is the reason ____ or _____ ?"

This is not the way to make science. After "It looks like.." comes "Can we find evidence that this is right? (And is there no evidence that contradicts it?)". THEN, if, and only if, the "Looks like part" gets verified, do you start looking for reasons.

Hans

[Kumar]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
This, in a very short way, shows one of your basic mistakes, Kumar.

Look at the statement above (edited for grammar):

"It looks like..."

"Is the reason ____ or _____ ?"

This is not the way to make science. After "It looks like.." comes "Can we find evidence that this is right? (And is there no evidence that contradicts it?)". THEN, if, and only if, the "Looks like part" gets verified, do you start looking for reasons.

Hans

???

[MRC_Hans]

Didn't expect you to.

Hans

[Kumar]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Didn't expect you to.

Hans

?, Ok, bye till Rolfe's poll results.:( Till then, Dr. Mas may entertain/? you.:D

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
?, Ok, bye till Rolfe's poll results.:( Till then, Dr. Mas may entertain/? you.:D OMG, he's jealous, now. :nope:

Hans

[Jocce]

Originally posted by Kumar
There is an anemia which is "anemia of chronic disease".
It looks that we gets anemic conditions on getting any chronic disease, latent condition etc. But, whether it is a normal immune/defence response or by causing agents is not clear?

So you just copy and paste randomly do you? Never bother to read and understand what you paste? The answer is spelled out in the text you pasted and I'll quote (split into lines for clarity):


1. At the onset of an infection, blood iron rapidly declines as iron moves into the liver for storage.

2. This shift helps fight the infection by depriving the infecting microorganisms of the body's iron, which they may require for their own metabolism.

3. However, along with this life-saving mechanism also comes the inability to make new hemoglobin, resulting in anemia.



If this piece of text is to be believed, it's a normal response of your immune system. I'll translate:

1. Your body takes away the yummy iron and hides it in the liver so the nasty germs can't get it so easily.

2. Hopefully this starve them to death.

3. Unfortunately you can't produce hemoglobin because for that you need iron in other places. Hemoglobin is needed to transport oxygen and therefor this can lead to anemia...IF PROLONGED!

[Eos of the Eons]

Kumar is one of those that only wants to read things that supports his rather unsupported viewpoint on how the body works.

I'm laughing my @ss off! The last post illustrates the type of ignoring Kumar does.

Thank you to Jocce for that last post! You notice there is no response from Kumar :D (Well...yet, let's give him a few more hours...I'm sure he's digging frantically for something).

[ReFLeX]

He also has Chronic Editing Syndrome.

[Kumar]

Jocce,

I think you have not read other link.

This type of anemia develops as a result of extended infection or inflammation.

Causes, incidence, and risk factors

Certain chronic infections and inflammatory diseases cause several changes in the blood production (hematopoietic) system. These include a slightly shortened red blood cell life span and sequestration of iron in inflammatory cells called macrophages, resulting in a decrease in the amount of iron that is available to make red blood cells. In the presence of these effects a low to moderate grade anemia develops. The symptoms of the anemia may go unnoticed in the face of the primary disease.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/...icle/000565.htm

What does it indicate?

Mr.Hans,

OMG, he's jealous, now.

No, but just :D :D at your preference for interactions & discussions.

[Jocce]

Originally posted by Kumar
Jocce,

I think you have not read other link.
What does it indicate?


Oh I'm so sorry I forgot:

1. "These include a slightly shortened red blood cell life span ".

Translate 1: Yeah, red blood cells also die a bit quicker.

Sorry to make you confused like that.

Kumar, before going any further in this discussion I'd like you to translate this last text into your own words like I did. None of us have a medical education so we're laymen. It's not surprising then if some words and concepts are misunderstood.

To check if we have the same understanding, please..in your own words...that last text. No conclusions about cause and effect....just what does it say. How do you understand it?

[Kumar]

I am asking. Anyway things can be thought both way. Immunity/defence mechanism do as you translated/cleared. Infective/cancer agents eats/use iron for their survival. I asked because it looks to me like that, logically in common understanding.

We may have to understand to understand this concept:

What infective agents, maligent cells etc. need to exist out of body, do harm initially on infection/getting, stay in latency, to multiply, to spread & to harm after spread?

[Jocce]

Originally posted by Kumar
We may have to understand to understand this concept:

What infective agents, maligent cells etc. need to exist out of body, do harm initially on infection/getting, stay in latency, to multiply, to spread & to harm after spread?

Sure, go ahead and study. Cellbiology, biochemistry, virology and immunology come to mind as suitable subjects. I'm sure there's a university somewhere in your neighbourhood that teach this. Then come back after you graduate and ask any questions.

oh...wait...you're not saying that you plan on researching this through randomly googled information are you? That's a new approach to study and research. I'll make sure to suggest it to the university board here.


Immunity/defence mechanism do as you translated/cleared. Infective/cancer agents eats/use iron for their survival. I asked because it looks to me like that, logically in common understanding.

Glad to be of help. Kinda shocked that it actually DID help though.

[Kumar]

Jocce,

Ok, thanks for advice.

Aerobic/anaerobic, blood/no blood, iron/no iron...survival is to be looked into.

[Jocce]

Originally posted by Kumar
...survival is to be looked into.

Good thinking, check out Darwin. He found out loads of stuff about survival, of the fittest. Maybe it's all an evolutionary thing kumar. Quite a thought huh... *smug look, nodding wisely, mental note "evolution of iron"*

I think you're on to something here.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Jocce
Sure, go ahead and study. Cellbiology, biochemistry, virology and immunology come to mind as suitable subjects. I'm sure there's a university somewhere in your neighbourhood that teach this. Then come back after you graduate and ask any questions.

oh...wait...you're not saying that you plan on researching this through randomly googled information are you? That's a new approach to study and research. I'll make sure to suggest it to the university board here.The idea that he should actually study the subjects he seems to be interested in has been suggested to Kumar many times in the past. Some of us have even posted links to bookshop listings of textbooks where he could find all that he's asking, laid out systematically and understandably. We've suggested that he look for extramural courses at his local university, or sign up for a distance learning course, or something like that.

Not a hope.

Once, he even admitted that he didn't want to learn anything in case he was forced to abandon his pet preconceptions.

I've given up. He's either inhabiting some totally impenetrable alternate universe where he thinks he can divine the truth just by thinking about it and some random Googling, or he's a deliberate troll having a laugh at our expense by seeing just how far we're prepared to put up with his wildly irrational speculations. I rather incline to the latter view, especially in consideration of some of the throwaway lines in his posts.

Rolfe.

[Kumar]

Homeopath also suggest anyone who don't accept/understand & didn't studied homeopathy suitably, to look for extramural courses at his/her local university/classes, or sign up for a distance learning course, or something like that & also then experiance the taste pudding of homeopathy. Otherwise just consult suitably & have practical experiances. Will they??

Not a hope.

[Deetee]

Originally posted by Kumar
Homeopath also suggest anyone who don't accept/understand & didn't studied homeopathy suitably, to look for extramural courses at his/her local university/classes, or sign up for a distance learning course, or something like that & also then experiance the taste pudding of homeopathy. Otherwise just consult suitably & have practical experiances. Will they??

Not a hope.

Kumar - why don't you take Homeopath's advice -
YOU go and enroll on a basic science course, then YOU will be able to "experience the taste pudding" of evidence-based scientific enquiry.

Not a hope!

Until you do, is there any point in any of us responding to your pointless, incoherent ramblings on subjects for which you have no understanding (and show no inclination whatsoever of trying to comprehend)? I don't think so...

[Jocce]

Originally posted by Deetee
Until you do, is there any point in any of us responding to your pointless, incoherent ramblings on subjects for which you have no understanding (and show no inclination whatsoever of trying to comprehend)? I don't think so...

Aww...come now. It's an interesting mental excersise. Much like a crossing between multidimensional Rubix cubes and Pandoras boxes. You twist and turn, peel off a layer just to discover new layers with changed dimensions, shape and colour. ;)

I also scratch wounds until they start bleeding again. Maybe I'm a bit of a masochist?

[MRC_Hans]

Nat. Sulph. & Sil are indicated for "chronicity". Nat. sulph effects bile. What about Sil.? I think Nat sulph improve bile secretion whereas Sil may do opposite. Can bile imbalance be thought as a reason of chronicity? We get Nat sulph in morning atmosphere (existing everywhere). We get sil from earth,plants, mountains etc.(which also exist everywhere to our direct exposures). Both these we get in somewhat homeopathic dose. So we can think, imbalances in these can be a reson of chronicity. In my other topics I indicated that, I feel we may be getting effects/interactions from any substance in following manner:-

Physical: By its reflected lights/wavelengths(colour & shape/pattern). By its black body radiations(heat releseased by any substance on absorbing any light). By its magnetic effect & electric charge. These will be our physical contacts.

[b]Internal:[b] By chemical reactions. By absorption & emissions(may not be possible inside).These will be our intenal contacts.


Mostly, we get homeopathic effects of higher potencies, by their physical effects as I described above. This physical effect can be by direct exposure to us not by ingestion or taking substances internally.

I am not sure whether this "physical" effects can represent lower potencies with molecular pesence. But It can be possible, as we keep remedies in mouth which remain exposed to light--so mostly we will be getting physical effects. Chewing, looking, using our hands for taking any food, can somewhat be thought as homeopathic effect.
Post today by Kumar (as Kayveeh) over at Otherhealth (http://www.otherhealth.com/showthread.php?p=58694#post58694) .

Just so you can all see how he uses the informatione we are feeding him here :nope:.

Hans

[Kumar]

Deetee, Jocce,

OK. Thanks for advices & contributions. Pls do tell here, if you could know/find somewhat relevant in future.

Mr.Hans,

Thanks for the back biting & your acceptance that this is 'right thought/information as you say feeded by you. Sory, I was thinking, I feeded this to you vide "can photograph effect" or otherwise '. :(

Best. Enjoy.

[Jocce]

Originally posted by Kumar
Deetee, Jocce,

OK. Thanks for advices & contributions. Pls do tell here, if you could know/find somewhat relevant in future.


Sure, no problem. One thing you might look into just came to mind. I have a cat and she just sneezed when she was walking over our carpet. Since carpet is spelled almost exactly as carpentry this could be a suggestion that wood, properly diluted and succused of course, might be a remedy for dizzyness. Cause I sometimes get dizzy when I sneeze hard.

Just a thought anyway...be well.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Kumar
Thanks for the back biting & your acceptance that this is 'right thought/information as you say feeded by you. Sory, I was thinking, I feeded this to you vide "can photograph effect" or otherwise '. :(

Best. Enjoy.
I wonder where the "back biting" expression comes from. Looking at the topology of the situation, it would put MRC Hans and Kumar in a compromising position, and give me mental images I'd rather not have...

[Kumar]

In consideration of mentionings in this topic & giving a thought to natural self healing mechanism, Can it be possible that some kind of anemias as hemolytic anemia & megaloblastic anemia OR Idiopathic autoimmune hemolytic anemia/immune hemolytic anemia & Pernicious anemia, anemia:chronic diseases ALSO many other hereditary & chronic disorders & imbalances which are considered as diseases may actually be some immune defence responses to handle/restrict or resist these latencies/chronic conditions. Wanting less oxygen, less food, less light/energy, less activity etc. may be to remove these latencies or starve their agents to death, which can be given a thought as an immune/natural defence response, instead of disease.

Read many anemia at:
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000560.htm

[Kumar]

I feel you can't/don't want to think bit deeply/dynamically on these aspects.

When you pursue so much about placebo effect, can we consider this placebo as 'self healing' or 'immune defence response'. It means we have some strong 'self healing' or 'immune defence response' (placebo in other words). If strong & balanced, it can handle most of our problems, but if weak or imbalanced--it may delay(latencies) or fail to handle the problem immediately on getting it.

Can you tell how much problems can be handled by our immune defence responses & whatever it handles without any other out side interference/medication in natural way--will be a complete cure or just a treatment/suppression?

Whether latencies are the result of some weakness or imbalance in our immunity?

What mechanisms our immune defence response adopt if it can't handle problem immediately resulting into latencies?

Whether immunity is a sigular word or plural word? I mean, whether there can be many types of immunities in one body?

[Kumar]

It it ok?

http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/fulltext/hcl-tab3.jpg

[Donks]

Originally posted by Kumar
It it ok?

How should we know, if you give no reference where anyone can check out the info? You'll notice the physicians no longer talk to you, so you have to settle for people who don't know this stuff off the top of our heads, so we need to research it.
All I could get from the image is that it came from the "Alternative Medicine Review", which is not a promising name.

[Rolfe]

Damn, might have known somebody wouldn't be able to resist breaking the nice uninterrupted string of posts by Kumar.

For the record, I have no idea "it it OK" or not. Only that decreased gastric acidity, if indeed it occurred, would be the least of anyone's worries with some of these conditions.

Rolfe.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Rolfe
Damn, might have known somebody wouldn't be able to resist breaking the nice uninterrupted string of posts by Kumar.
Sorry :D

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Kumar
It it ok?

http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/fulltext/hcl-tab3.jpg

No. The blue background and white text is an unpleasant combination. The choice of font is poor as well.

[Kumar]

Thanks for starting interacting in this thread.

In consideration of reading the hits on open search (not closed search in inverted commas) on search engines and by realating these with TRS, unclear aspects , I feel there can be some misses & weaknesses in assessing ' role of iron & roles of digestive secretions effecting pHs in our body'. We can/should look these by open discussions not be "closed discussions".

It looks Iron Overload compromises the immune system at the same time it feeds infections and inflamations. With excess iron the immune system is compromised at the same time the excess feeds infections and inflammations or whiile iron compromising with the immunity also favour infections/inflamations so diseases/disorders esp. latent/chronic/inherited/spread etc.

It may also be thought imbalance pHs in digestive tract may effect digestion & absorption of many biochemicals..as iron. As far as digestion is concerned, strong gastric acid can break big organic particles & free inorganic particles, convert these, enabing better & easy absorption. "As far as absorption is concerned, iron is absorbed in the duodenum when the metabolism calls for it. There is a mucosal block in place when it is not needed. This seems to be regulated by a newly discovered enzyme called hepcidine. Probably, Vitamin C, low pH (excess/concentrated gasteric acid, low bile/bicarbonate levels) overrides this mucosal block and will carry iron into the system even when the metabolism hasn't called for it."

We should therefore look at it.

[Mojo]

Originally posted by Kumar
In consideration of reading the hits on open search (not closed search in inverted commas) on search enginesI'm beginning to realise why so much of what you post appears irrelevant.

[Mojo]

Incidentally, regardless of whether the table you posted is "OK", "associated with" is not the same as "caused by."

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Mojo
I'm beginning to realise why so much of what you post appears irrelevant.

I'm beginning to understand why so much of what you post appears least to me.:p

[Kumar]

Few science theories can be relevant:-


Acidogenic theory: a theory of the etiology of dental caries, according to which acids produced by bacteria cause decalcification and softening of the residue.

Aging theory of atherosclerosis: a theory that atherosclerosis is an inevitable consequence of aging and therefore an irreversible process.

Pasteur's theory: the theory that the immunity secured by an attack of a disease is caused by the exhaustion of material needed for the growth of the organism of the disease.

Proteolysis-chelation theory: a theory of the etiology of dental caries, according to which keratolytic microorganisms cause formation of chelates, which in turn cause decalcification.

proteolytic theory: a theory of the etiology of dental caries, according to which microorganisms destroy enamel protein.

Ribbert's theory: a tumor is formed from the development of cell rests owing to reduced tension in the surrounding tissues.

What can you give to me from these theories?

[Zep]

Originally posted by Kumar
Few science theories can be relevant:-


Acidogenic theory: a theory of the etiology of dental caries, according to which acids produced by bacteria cause decalcification and softening of the residue.

Aging theory of atherosclerosis: a theory that atherosclerosis is an inevitable consequence of aging and therefore an irreversible process.

Pasteur's theory: the theory that the immunity secured by an attack of a disease is caused by the exhaustion of material needed for the growth of the organism of the disease.

Proteolysis-chelation theory: a theory of the etiology of dental caries, according to which keratolytic microorganisms cause formation of chelates, which in turn cause decalcification.

proteolytic theory: a theory of the etiology of dental caries, according to which microorganisms destroy enamel protein.

Ribbert's theory: a tumor is formed from the development of cell rests owing to reduced tension in the surrounding tissues.

What can you give to me from these theories? Spelling lessons. Grammar too.

By the way, Ribbert's Theory is only applicable to frogs.

[Jocce]

Oh wait! I wanna play too... I got one...wait...where is it ...oh here:


Bruner's constructivist theory
A major theme in the theoretical framework of Bruner is that learning is an active process in which (1)learners construct new ideas or concepts based upon their current/past knowledge.

The learner selects and transforms information, constructs hypotheses, and makes decisions, (2)relying on a cognitive structure to do so.

Cognitive structure (i.e., schema, mental models) provides meaning and organization to experiences and allows the individual to (3)"go beyond the information given".

Source (http://tip.psychology.org/bruner.html)


I'm sure this theory is relevant to most of your threads Kumar. What might be of interest is to research:

1. What if the learner doesn't have any current/past knowledge to base their new ideas or concepts on?

2. If there's no cognitive structure or it is seriously warped, then what?

3. What does "going beyond information given" lead to if there's no knowledge and no cognitive structure to start with?

I have a gut feeling about the answer but need more research.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Zep
Spelling lessons. Grammar too.

By the way, Ribbert's Theory is only applicable to frogs. ribbert, moritz
<person> German pathologist, 1855-1920.

See: Ribbert's theory

{oncology} That a neoplasm may result when a reduction in tension (exerted by adjacent tissues) leads to conditions favourable to uncontrolled growth of cell rests.

To me: somewhat resting potencial, relaxation(opposite to "contractions") or relaxed condition.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Kumar
ribbert, moritz
<person> German pathologist, 1855-1920.

See: Ribbert's theory

{oncology} That a neoplasm may result when a reduction in tension (exerted by adjacent tissues) leads to conditions favourable to uncontrolled growth of cell rests.

To me: somewhat resting potencial, relaxation(opposite to "contractions") or relaxed condition.
1920? That's a while ago... Any of the physicians still reading Kumar's threads? Is this theory still currently used?

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Donks
1920? That's a while ago... Any of the physicians still reading Kumar's threads? Is this theory still currently used?

No. I guess one could now see it as a proxy for current understanding of cell-cell surface interactions and what we now now on the constraint and control of cell multiplication.

As with so much of what the woos hang on to, it is often difficult simply to say, "No. That is wrong" because it wasn't a bad idea in its day and, in the light of current knowledge, you can explain why it might once have been hypothesised. Unfortunately, an honest answer allowing that grain of truth to be noted may be taken as confirmation of an entire wacky therapy. Did you read that, Kumar?

I've started using an approach when clients ask similar woo-based questions that involves saying that while what they say is not 100% wrong, it contains so little that is right that for all practical purposes it is of no merit. That gets away from the problem of flat-out contradicting them, while hopefully getting them to drop the subject.

[Kumar]

BSM,

"The term law is often used to refer to universal principles that describe the fundamental nature of something, to universal properties and relationships between things, or to descriptions that purport to explain these principles and relationships."

You can now understand, how much persistance, continuty, absoluteness, strength...you have in your pro-systems & why homeopaths. mass people doubt these. Just take a step towards persistance.........Don't be so much imbalanced alike you made people by showing them 'the shape of earth'. Be practical. Don't ask/suggest us to follow that system which can mostly change tomorow. I think you remember Dr.Sch.'s words which I posted previously.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Kumar
You can now understand, how much persistance, continuty, absoluteness, strength...you have in your pro-systems & why homeopaths. mass people doubt these. Just take a step towards persistance.........Don't be so much imbalanced alike you made people by showing them 'the shape of earth'.
It's called "improving." You see Kumar, when most people realise their current explanation for something doesn't actually fit the real world, they try to improve the explanation. You seem to be stuck with a 200 year old explanation which doesn't fit the real world.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Donks
It's called "improving." You see Kumar, when most people realise their current explanation for something doesn't actually fit the real world, they try to improve the explanation. You seem to be stuck with a 200 year old explanation which doesn't fit the real world.

Same old story. Absoluteness, persistance, continuty, ...are not weaknesses but strength. Persisted things means already established/improved/cooked, whereas changing things means establishing/improving/under process/half cooked.....

When you are not persisting of anything, how can you be so sure of this?

[Donks]

Originally posted by Kumar
Same old story. Absoluteness, persistance, continuty, ...are not weaknesses but strength. Persisted things means already established/improved/cooked, whereas changing things means establishing/improving/under process/half cooked.....
Or so you say, yet the evidence is not on your side. If you were right, homeopathy would consistently beat "modern systems" in DBPC studies. Yet it can't even beat placebo.

When you are not persisting of anything, how can you be so sure of this?
Because the evidence is on my side.

[Kumar]

Evidences of what, stabilty/persistance/continuty/absoluteness/least adversities OR opposite?

[Donks]

Originally posted by Kumar
Evidences of what, stabilty/persistance/continuty/absoluteness/least adversities OR opposite?
Evidence of effectiveness. Your "absolute" system isn't worth a damn, while modern medicine helps people.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Kumar
BSM,

"The term law is often used to refer to universal principles that describe the fundamental nature of something, to universal properties and relationships between things, or to descriptions that purport to explain these principles and relationships."

You can now understand, how much persistance, continuty, absoluteness, strength...you have in your pro-systems & why homeopaths. mass people doubt these. Just take a step towards persistance.........Don't be so much imbalanced alike you made people by showing them 'the shape of earth'. Be practical. Don't ask/suggest us to follow that system which can mostly change tomorow. I think you remember Dr.Sch.'s words which I posted previously.

Please rewrite that so it is not gibberish if you want a response. I'm sure the Good Grammar Fairy can help you.

[Kumar]

It is ok.

To the point: what are root causes & reasons for getting latencies, chronicities, cancer, inherited problems, resistances, weak immunities etc.? Can you tell in few sentences/words?

[Donks]

Originally posted by Kumar
inherited problems
You parents' DNA.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Donks
You parents' DNA.

Whether it is all & a root cause?

Can we think these are 'inherited & chronically aquired unnatural & imbalanced exposures/interactions to us'? Under consideration of 'natural selection', why we inherit problems? Can it be thought that our inheritance being supported by "natural selection" is for some good to survive in changed environment?

[Donks]

Originally posted by Kumar
Whether it is all & a root cause?

Can we think these are 'inherited & chronically aquired unnatural & imbalanced exposures/interactions to us'? Under consideration of 'natural selection', why we inherit problems? Can it be thought that our inheritance being supported by "natural selection" is for some good to survive in changed environment?
Look up the definition for "inherit."

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Donks
Look up the definition for "inherit."

Inherit: to have in turn or receive as if from an ancestor: to receive from ancestors by genetic transmission (inherit a strong constitution)

[Donks]

Originally posted by Kumar
Inherit: to have in turn or receive as if from an ancestor: to receive from ancestors by genetic transmission (inherit a strong constitution)

What kind of information gets inherited?

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Donks
What kind of information gets inherited?

Sorry, this is not your subject, just leave it.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Kumar
Sorry, this is not your subject, just leave it.
Whatever you say, I'm sure you're an expert in the field.

[Eos of the Eons]

http://www.members.shaw.ca/eostory/Scratch-Head.gif

Nah, I think Kumar was talking to himself this time.

[Z]

Originally posted by Kumar
Can we think these are 'inherited & chronically aquired unnatural & imbalanced exposures/interactions to us'? Under consideration of 'natural selection', why we inherit problems? Can it be thought that our inheritance being supported by "natural selection" is for some good to survive in changed environment? [/B]

No, but some Bettas can survive for over a decade with proper care and treatment. I suggest using a larger tank for your Betta, preferably one large enough to allow plenty of freedom of movement. Also, provide plenty of foliage for your shy Betta to conceal himself behind, as well as suitable stiff foliage for him to drape his fins over during rest/sleep. You can also use a water filtration system to extend the time between water changes/tank cleanings; just put a piece of plexiglass between the pump and the main area of the tank, with holes in it or spaces around its edge to allow water transfer, but not large enough fot the Betta to get through. This will limit the currents in the water which disturb the Betta's piece of mind.

[Kumar]

Under "natural selection" consideration, we can think three things:-

1. Whatever it select is for good to maintain as per changed environments etc.?

2. Whether "natural selection" is effected by imbalances due to modern envoronments, lifestyles etc.?

3. If "natural selection" is just random selection & not related to any adjustment fot the changed condition?

Under 1 above, if it is for good, should we maintain whatever it gives to us?

[Donks]

Originally posted by Kumar
Under "natural selection" consideration, we can think three things:-

1. Whatever it select is for good to maintain as per changed environments etc.?
I don't understand this point. Do you mean that indivuduals with traits that give them an advantage are more successful, given an environment?
2. Whether "natural selection" is effected by imbalances due to modern envoronments, lifestyles etc.?
What imbalances?
And what do you mean is natural selection affected? What modern medicine does is allow individuals, who would have died 100 years ago, to live. Are you against that?
3. If "natural selection" is just random selection & not related to any adjustment fot the changed condition?
What do you mean "not related"? That's the whole point of natural selection. Individuals with traits that are advantageous for their environment tend to be more successful.
Under 1 above, if it is for good, should we maintain whatever it gives to us?
If what is for good? Are you using a moral definition of "good," an economic definition of "good" viewed from a cost-benefit perspective, or what definition of "good" are you using?

[Kumar]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Donks
I don't understand this point. Do you mean that indivuduals with traits that give them an advantage are more successful, given an environment?

No, I mean we are naturally selected & if " genetic natural selection" is for our better survival in changed environments, we should maintain it or not? Just try to understand this aspect by this quote:-


"Can it be thought that some auto-immunities, malabsorptions, anorexias, breathing defficiencies i.e. which weakens the body to some extent, are our normal immune defence responses/mechanisms gifted to us with our evolution or "genetic natutal selections"-- to starve, suffocate, remove or kill disease/disorder causing agents in their acute, chronic or latent stages & to protect the body as a whole at cost of some body's weakening? It can be thought alike fasting or discontinuing some foods for some time in case of getting any disease or disorder.

It is a normal practice to consider these, as some diseased/disordered conditions & treat these with medications or otherwise. Will it not an interferance in the normal immune mechanisms?"

What imbalances?
And what do you mean is natural selection affected? What modern medicine does is allow individuals, who would have died 100 years ago, to live. Are you against that?

No, but I am against to carry forward the losses/diseases/weaknesses. I like "survival of the fittest" to give the justification to our children..as nature tells us.

What do you mean "not related"? That's the whole point of natural selection. Individuals with traits that are advantageous for their environment tend to be more successful.

I have asked if natural selection is a random selection or an advantageous selection to survive better in their environment? If yes, we should maintain our naturality?

If what is for good? Are you using a moral definition of "good," an economic definition of "good" viewed from a cost-benefit perspective, or what definition of "good" are you using?

I mean, our genetic natural selection is for good/advantageous from the health POV, we should maintain traits of our natural selection or naturality.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Kumar
No, I mean we are naturally selected & if " genetic natural selection" is for our better survival in changed environments, we should maintain it or not? Just try to understand this aspect by this quote:-
If modern medicine offers a better solution than what nature has so far provided, I don't see why we wouldn't use it.
No, but I am against to carry forward the losses/diseases/weaknesses. I like "survival of the fittest" to give the justification to our children..as nature tells us.
Research is being done into identifying the genes that cause genetic diseases. In the future it will probably be possible to repair them. Even then, altering a person's DNA will not be an easy decision. There might be tradeoffs, a gene that gives a beneficial trait might also give a negative one.
But that's not what you're looking for, since you know jacksh*t about all that. What are you proposing?
I have asked if natural selection is a random selection or an advantageous selection to survive better in their environment? If yes, we should maintain our naturality?
Why do you keep labeling natural selecion as random?
Why should we "maintain our naturality"?
How do you propose to do that?
I mean, our genetic natural selection is for good/advantageous from the health POV, we should maintain traits of our natural selection or naturality.
What traits that are not in our "naturality" are we switching for those that are?

[Kumar]

Donks,

In short, I want to understand:-

While treating by medicines/remedies, can we be interfering in natural mechanisms of immunities, resistances, self healing power...gifted to us by evolution or 'natural selection' in some cases by considering those as diseases or disorders eg; anemias?

Can some autoimunites, defects in hunger/ digestion & absorptions, breathing patterns...(as I mentioned in my previous post) be natural body's mechanisms, but consdered & treated as disease or disorder?

[Donks]

Originally posted by Kumar
Donks,

In short, I want to understand:-

While treating by medicines/remedies, can we be interfering in natural mechanisms of immunities, resistances, self healing power...gifted to us by evolution or 'natural selection' in some cases by considering those as diseases or disorders eg; anemias?
It may or it may not, I don't know or care. The point you seem to be missing is that if any "interferance" medicines or remedies have were prejudicial, we'd see a steady decrease in life expectancy and quality of life as the use of modern medicine increased. We see the opposite.
Can some autoimunites, defects in hunger/ digestion & absorptions, breathing patterns...(as I mentioned in my previous post) be natural body's mechanisms, but consdered & treated as disease or disorder?
Same as above.

Do you have any particular diseases in mind? Or are you just talking generalities?

[Kumar]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Donks
It may or it may not, I don't know or care. The point you seem to be missing is that if any "interferance" medicines or remedies have were prejudicial, we'd see a steady decrease in life expectancy and quality of life as the use of modern medicine increased. We see the opposite.

Life expectancy increased, quality of life improved... may or may not be a criteria for 'true health or survival of fittest'. Balanced & fittest growths & carry farwards can be better, if we are not low/deficient in numbers.

Same as above.

Do you have any particular diseases in mind? Or are you just talking generalities?

Some anemias, mal/poor digestions & absorptions, anorexia, aversion to foods/some foods etc. in case of latencies--TB/cancer etc.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Kumar
Life expectancy increased, quality of life improved may or may not be a criteria for 'true health or survival of fittest'. Balanced & fittest growths & carry farwards can be better, if we are not low/deficient in numbers.
You seem to be using Kumar brand definitions, so just to clear the air:
Define "true health."
Define "fit."
Define "balanced."


Some anemias, mal/poor digestions & absorptions, anorexia, aversion to foods/some foods etc. in case of latencies--TB/cancer etc.
Which type of cancer? Be specific. And show a causal chain from the immune system response, to anemia, to the cancer being affected.

[Kumar]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Donks
You seem to be using Kumar brand definitions, so just to clear the air:
Define "true health."
Define "fit."
Define "balanced."

When one need no/least outside aid to survive & maitain.


Which type of cancer? Be specific. And show a causal chain from the immune system response, to anemia, to the cancer being affected.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol5no3/weinberg.htm

[Donks]

Originally posted by Kumar
When one need no/least outside aid to survive & maitain.
Which of the three terms I asked for is that one?

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol5no3/weinberg.htm
Quite the nice article. Why can't you use sources like that all the time?
The problem for you is that it is not wholly relevant to the subject. It deals with how to help the body in withholding iron in cases of iron loading. Just from that point of view, it goes against your main hypothesis of medicine working against the body's immune response. Specifically, I didn't see where it recommended perpetuating anemia in ill patients. It talks about diagnosing iron loading and withholding iron in those cases, not all.

But nice article, nevertheless. And much more relevant than the usual stuff you post. Well done.

[Kumar]

Donks,

I have posted this link also in my previous postings. I just want to understand, when a person get some kind of latency or chronic disease even cancer, can our body's defence system trigger anemic condition(anemia: chronic disease), malabsorptions, anorexia, breathing problems... mechanisms, that weakens our body to starve/suffocate/kill- disease causing agents/cancer cells?

When we treat the above weakening mechanisms considering those as disease--will it not interfere in immune defence normal mechanism?

Eg; suppose a person become anemic due to latent TB because immune system is withholding iron absorption or causing autoimmunity to RBCs--to starve, suffocate & kill TB bacterias. Suppose we give iron supplements or other means considering a person is weak, anemic, autoimmune or mal nourished/absorption abnormalities, what then can happen? Will those bacterias which are in latencu not get more food o survive, multiply & spread??? Same may be cancer theory. I think iron supplements are sometimes given to improve immunity.

[cajela]

As an aside, I have recenlty been reading a book on evolutionary medicine (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679746749) which discusses iron overload in an early chapter. Apparently bacteria need iron. The authors suggest that various forms of temporary anemia are part of the body's defense systems - analogous to fevers and sneezing. It is a real scientific and medical research area. Some of my colleagues think the view is too adaptationist, but not completely ratbaggy. It's testable science.

It's not false just becuase Kumar says it's true :) Mind you, extrapolating from a reduction being an infection control advantage to an excess causing cancer is pretty darn whacky.

[Donks]

Originally posted by cajela
It's not false just becuase Kumar says it's true :) Mind you, extrapolating from a reduction being an infection control advantage to an excess causing cancer is pretty darn whacky.
Yeah, I'm not saying it's false just because Kumar brought it up. I'm saying, that from my layman POV, it's not the same to treat someone with iron loading by reducing the iron than to take someone with anemia and not treat him because his body may or may not have a different disease as well. Kumar seems to be big on withholding treatment.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Kumar
Donks,

I have posted this link also in my previous postings. I just want to understand, when a person get some kind of latency or chronic disease even cancer, can our body's defence system trigger anemic condition(anemia: chronic disease), malabsorptions, anorexia, breathing problems... mechanisms, that weakens our body to starve/suffocate/kill- disease causing agents/cancer cells?
I don't know, but for arguments sake, lets say that it can, and does.

When we treat the above weakening mechanisms considering those as disease--will it not interfere in immune defence normal mechanism?
Why do you assume that the doctor won't try to find the root cause of the anemia? If the anemia is being causes by some infectious agent, or the body fighting the infectious agent, wouldn't it be better than the doctors help fight the infectious agent?
Eg; suppose a person become anemic due to latent TB because immune system is withholding iron absorption or causing autoimmunity to RBCs--to starve, suffocate & kill TB bacterias. Suppose we give iron supplements or other means considering a person is weak, anemic, autoimmune or mal nourished/absorption abnormalities, what then can happen? Will those bacterias which are in latencu not get more food o survive, multiply & spread??? Same may be cancer theory. I think iron supplements are sometimes given to improve immunity.
Are you distinguising between an anemia caused by the infection and an anemia caused by the body fighting the infection? For instance, Myelophthisic Anemia (http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic1562.htm) seems to be caused by infiltration of the bone marrow by some cancers and TB, among other bad stuff.
I'm not saying that latent-TB doesn't trigger a response form the body that causes anemia. I don't know. But, do you have evidence that that is the case?

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Donks
I don't know, but for arguments sake, lets say that it can, and does.

Why do you assume that the doctor won't try to find the root cause of the anemia? If the anemia is being causes by some infectious agent, or the body fighting the infectious agent, wouldn't it be better than the doctors help fight the infectious agent?

Are you distinguising between an anemia caused by the infection and an anemia caused by the body fighting the infection? For instance, Myelophthisic Anemia (http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic1562.htm) seems to be caused by infiltration of the bone marrow by some cancers and TB, among other bad stuff.
I'm not saying that latent-TB doesn't trigger a response form the body that causes anemia. I don't know. But, do you have evidence that that is the case?

Just read many types of anemias at:-
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000560.htm
anemia - B12 deficiency
anemia - folate deficiency
anemia - iron deficiency
anemia of chronic disease
hemolytic anemia
hemolytic anemia - G-6-PD deficiency
idiopathic aplastic anemia
idiopathic autoimmune hemolytic anemia
immune hemolytic anemia
immune hemolytic anemia - drug-induced
megaloblastic anemia
pernicious anemia
secondary aplastic anemia
sickle cell anemia


We can think which can be realed to immune normal mechanisms & which with real nutritional deficiencies. Pl keep in mind mal-absorption, digestion problems, anorexia, breathing pattern can be linked to normal immune response so animals birds keep fast in case of problems.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by cajela
As an aside, I have recenlty been reading a book on evolutionary medicine (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679746749) which discusses iron overload in an early chapter. Apparently bacteria need iron. The authors suggest that various forms of temporary anemia are part of the body's defense systems - analogous to fevers and sneezing. It is a real scientific and medical research area. Some of my colleagues think the view is too adaptationist, but not completely ratbaggy. It's testable science.

It's not false just becuase Kumar says it's true :) Mind you, extrapolating from a reduction being an infection control advantage to an excess causing cancer is pretty darn whacky.

cajela,

Thanks. Some dynamic thinking can do the wonders for humanity. Things are there but we may not be dynamically thinking towards these. :(

We should understand what is required for the survival & growth of bacterias etc. in body or what they eat? What cancer cells require to survive, multyply & spread? ACS deny that cancer cells reqire iron for this purpose but those can be alike our own body cells. Then???

[Donks]

Originally posted by Kumar
We can think which can be realed to immune normal mechanisms & which with real nutritional deficiencies. Pl keep in mind mal-absorption, digestion problems, anorexia, breathing pattern can be linked to normal immune response so animals birds keep fast in case of problems.
Find out the possible causes of each. Go on, scoot! I ain't doing your job for you.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Donks
Find out the possible causes of each. Go on, scoot! I ain't doing your job for you.

Can't these be all, when no other well understood cause is there?

Btw, do you understand role of Mucosa(Mucosa is moist tissue that lines particular organs and body cavities throughout the body, including your nose, mouth, lungs, and gastrointestinal tract. Glands along the mucosa secrete mucus-a thick fluid) & mucus?

What are mucosa lining blocks?

Can excess mucus in TB related to restrict some oxygen going into the body to starve in infectious agents?

[Donks]

Originally posted by Kumar
Can't these be all, when no other well understood cause is there?
I don't understand the question. You posted a list of types of anemias, based on their cause. Now you have to link at least one to a response from the immune system to a different disease. Then show that it would be better to let the immune system alone in dealing with the disease, instead of medically treating the anemia and the disease.

Btw, do you understand role of Mucosa(Mucosa is moist tissue that lines particular organs and body cavities throughout the body, including your nose, mouth, lungs, and gastrointestinal tract. Glands along the mucosa secrete mucus-a thick fluid) & mucus?
At this moment, no. And I don't feel the urge to research it, either.
What are mucosa lining blocks?
I don't know.
Can excess mucus in TB related to restrict some oxygen going into the body to starve in infectious agents?
I don't know. What do you suggest?

[Rolfe]

Yawn. Haematology is part of my speciality. I've written many articles and book chapters about anaemia. This is so off the wall I can't even figure out what Kumar is trying to say. Well, since it's being said by a guy who seems to think that the reaction seriesOriginally posted by Kumar
O2+H2O= H2O3 or HO+H2O
H2O3+H2O=H4O4 or HO+H2O
H4O4+H2O=H6O5...
.......so on.is actually a practical example of something (that's from the What is paranormal in homeopathy (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55212&perpage=30&pagenumber=27) thread, in case anyone hasn't seen that particular gem yet), I don't think there's any need to worry too much about any of it.

Rolfe.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Rolfe
Yawn. Haematology is part of my speciality. I've written many articles and book chapters about anaemia. This is so off the wall I can't even figure out what Kumar is trying to say.
...snip...
Rolfe.

Too bad Kumar is so good at alienating people. A lot could be learned from your answers.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Rolfe
Yawn. Haematology is part of my speciality. I've written many articles and book chapters about anaemia. This is so off the wall I can't even figure out what Kumar is trying to say. Well, since it's being said by a guy who seems to think that the reaction seriesis actually a practical example of something (that's from the What is paranormal in homeopathy (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55212&perpage=30&pagenumber=27) thread, in case anyone hasn't seen that particular gem yet), I don't think there's any need to worry too much about any of it.

Rolfe.

That can be the problem/differences in understandings. I do not say you are wrong as per the routines, but somethig other can also be possible. I have quoted one link. Have you read it? Are you following this topic closely or not?

In short, can there be imbalance in desire(low intake or low CPE), digestion(low Hcl), absorption(imbalance in bile, bicarbonate, mucous blocks) of any food/mineral, anorexia, breathing abnormalities or other inputs/output abnormalities triggered as immune response to deal with latencies & chronic manifestations to starve, kill, or remove disease causing hidden agents?

Btw, what is the food for infective agents & cancer cells in their latent/dormant stages? Do our immune system recognize & can differenciate cancer cells as antigens or different from our normal body cells & deal with those as it deals with infective agents in latencies?

Rest being DTT & incomplete portion of post, so meaningless? Eg; You may not be Rolfe or a cat in actuals, but for example sake you have shown yourself it accordingly so meaningless in actuals. :( Why you only see by one eye and as on rat, otherwise is CTT & MTT.:D

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Kumar
Are you following this topic closely or not?Not. What you are saying is about as sensible as "grass is pink", and about as worthwhile to try to find references to refute.

Rolfe.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Rolfe
Not. What you are saying is about as sensible as "grass is pink", and about as worthwhile to try to find references to refute.

Rolfe.

Probably, grass can become somewhat pink/other coloured due some nutrients imbalances, sun burns, diseases or by more moving & moving on it. SDo you only see green colour? Doctor should see other than normal colours to do something?:) Is it not logical?

[Kumar]

Some researchers have linked excess iron levels to diabetes,34 cancer,35 increased risk of infection,36 systemic lupus erythematosus (SLE),37 exacerbation of rheumatoid arthritis,38 and Huntington’s disease.39 The greatest concern has surrounded the possibility that excess storage of iron in the body increases the risk of heart disease.

People with hepatitis C who have failed to respond to interferon therapy have been found to have higher amounts of iron within the liver.
In some people, particularly those with diabetes, insulin resistance syndrome, or liver disease, a genetic susceptibility to iron overload has been reported.
http://www.vitacost.com/science/hn/Supp/Iron.htm

Many studies link Iron onerload with many diseases.

Btw, whether we are getting some genetically predisposed disease triggered epidemic type by modern lifestyle & polluted environment? Can/do we get "Cystic Fibrosis" triggered by modern lifestyle somewhat type 2 also?

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Kumar
Can/do we get "Cystic Fibrosis" triggered by modern lifestyle somewhat type 2 also?

What is the cause of cystic fibrosis, Kumar?

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
What is the cause of cystic fibrosis, Kumar?

Cystic fibrosis (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000107.htm)

But no one knows what modern lifestyle leads to what, alike diabetes type2, we may find some day that we are also getting somewhat CF type2.

[Perpetual Notion]

Do you even bother to read what you post or link to?

Cystic fibrosis is an inherited genetic disease. That means you're born with it. You don't suddenly catch it or devlop it and it most certainly is not triggered by "modern lifestyle".

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Perpetual Notion
You don't suddenly catch it or devlop it and it most certainly is not triggered by "modern lifestyle". But as science is not yet absolute so everything can be possible. This may be some weakness or miss in science that type II cystic fibrosis is not understood. But Kumar, who is so much more intelligent than any physician or scientist (go look up "sarcasm", Kumar), has seen what all the educated and learned people are too much vested interests to understand.

Kumar, who thinks we all have to check with "specialists" to be sure that H-O-H is the only form water can take, is gifted that way, doncha know?

Rolfe.

[Perpetual Notion]

Thanks Rolfe. I stand corrected. I would love to have Kumar come to my hospital and explain to the physicians there why they're all mistaken in believing that CF is genetically inherited. And the oncologists would love to hear his theories about iron overload. He has so much to teach them. If only they would let go of their vested interests of keeping people alive. :rolleyes:

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Rolfe
But as science is not yet absolute so everything can be possible...

Causes of Small Intestine Dysfunction

Some causes are related to the liver, pancreas, gallbladder, and stomach, all affecting digestion in the small intestine. The cause must be determined.

Nerve pressure in the lower thoracics can affect small intestine function.

Stress can alter enzyme secretion and cause dysfunction.

Antibiotic therapy (for infections, etc.) can kill off helpful bacteria in the small and large intestine and can cause an alkaline gut where harmful gas producing bacteria will proliferate. Lack of HCl will contribute to this also.

Spices, alcohol and caffeine can cause irritation and result in oversecretion of mucus in the small intestine. This can "plug" the villi and decrease vitamin and mineral absorption leading to various deficiencies.

In this case even a healthful diet won’t be assimilated properly.
Causes of duodenal ulcers:
Increased HCl secretion in the stomach up to 15 times normal.

[i]Stress causing increased sympathetic nerve flow and decreasing secretion of mucus from Brunner’s glands.
An overworked pancreas from overeating, eating between meals, etc., not secreting enough bicarbonate.
http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C51451.html

What can you tell about mucus blocks/plugs in intestines?

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Kumar
What can you tell about mucus blocks/plugs in intestines?

I can tell you they forgot to include H. pylori in the list of causes of ulcers. It is the main cause of peptic ulcers.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
I can tell you they forgot to include H. pylori in the list of causes of ulcers. It is the main cause of peptic ulcers.

Ok, thanks. Anything to contribute?

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Kumar
Ok, thanks. Anything to contribute?


Yes. It was quite interesting to visit that diagnose-me website. I filled in the 1,000 answers on the questionnaire before realising they wanted to sting me for 25bucks, a charge that their home page completely forgets to mention.

Having been asked several tendentious questions about the number of mercury amalgam fillings I have and whether coffee enemas improve my well-being, I felt I knew enough about the site not to be quite so surprised that they do not know about the primary cause of peptic ulcers.

[Kumar]

BSM,

Then you tell what you can anout mucus blocks in intestines.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Kumar
BSM,

Then you tell what you can anout mucus blocks in intestines.

Only after you confirm whether you are still taking the insulin and explain about the isomers of water in the relevant threads

I'm not playing the game of following you off on another wild-goose chase. You need to show that you have learnt something from what has already been explained to you. I would suggest you start by showing you now understand about the "isomers" of water;

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870901406&highlight=isomer#post1870901406

It's a very easy question for someone to answer if they have understood what their misconception was, so show you now understand if you want more answers.

[Kumar]

Don't bother much, I will find it otherwise.

[Goddoesnotplaydice]

Might I suggest many of you go also buy some simple pH (potential of hydrogen) strip that comes in a roll for about ten bucks $10 (US Federal Reserve notes). You may find, if you urinate (pee) on a small snippett of this strip then also test your saliva's pH that the urine is possibly Acidic (about 5.0-6.0 pH) and the saliva is alkali (about 7.1-7.6 pH) while the saliva try to compensate for an acidic body. if this is true, a diet adjustment is surely needed to bring the body back into normal balance.

A urine pH value that is constantly acidic (5.0-6.5) is an indicator that the body has low pH (potential of hydrogen). This can be balanced gradually by proper diet (good salads, fruits, fish and greens) and lemon water/ tea, excersize and good hydration.

If anyone finds this acidic condition, Let me know and I will post more links on what food items to eat to correct this and what food items and "products" to avoid. Generally good eating habits and regular pH monitoring can give us all good feedback about what foods cuase it and what foods help bring it back into balance. I can assure you that cancer and disease usually thrives in an acidic environment. So eating properly is a HUGE issue in the removal of acidic by products from physiological stressors. Sorry, JUnk food and High SUGAR / High glycemic foods are not on the "good" list!

gdnpd

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Kumar
Don't bother much, I will find it otherwise.

Kumar

It reveals a lot about you that you refuse to demonstrate that you have understood one part of what you have been told before trying to set off at a tangent onto something else.

Until you demonstrate you understand what scope for isomerisation water molecules there is no point in proceeding.

Do you think that HOH and OHH will taste different in your much-loved cephalic phase effect?

Could you link to a site that shows the structures of HOH, OHH and HHO so we can see what you have learnt?

[Kumar]

Goddoesnotplaydice,

Yes, I think digestive acid, base & water(mucus) balance is a bit less attended concept inspite, it may effect systematically or constitutionally. To treat by diet changes can be alike treating imbalances in these balances of prime importance.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Kumar

It reveals a lot about you that you refuse to demonstrate that you have understood one part of what you have been told before trying to set off at a tangent onto something else.


Ok, as you feel/finds is ought to be correct. You may therefore avoid in future. It also demostrate to me that you are unable to contribute in my type. We basically differ on our different type of understandings, so can't understand/explain/agree on each others books.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Kumar
Ok, as you feel/finds is ought to be correct. You may therefore avoid in future. It also demostrate to me that you are unable to contribute in my type. We basically differ on our different type of understandings, so can't understand/explain/agree on each others books.
You've asked lots of people to "avoid in future." Well Kumar, seems like the future is now. As far as I can tell, everyone* is avoiding you. So, any chance that now you'll come through and finally show some understanding of what people have tried to tell you?

*ETA: I missed Goddoesnotplaydice, so you still have him/her.

[MRC_Hans]

Based on his track record, I predict he'll start spamming with a lot of silly questions and new silly ideas and hope somebody will bite (and somebody usually does).

Hans

[Donks]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Based on his track record, I predict he'll start spamming with a lot of silly questions and new silly ideas and hope somebody will bite (and somebody usually does).

Hans
Well Hans (btw, what does MRC stand for?), I'll try my best to not be the one that bites first :)

[MRC_Hans]

The MRC_Hans is an ancient MS Combat FLight Sim squadron handle. MRC is supposed to stand for mercenary (don't ask, I didn't invent it ;)). The MRC, or mercenary squadron was a rather unconventional squadron (really just a joke). For some strange reason, our website (http://mercair.tripod.com/) still exists.

The reason I use the handle is one of nostalgia, and because a lot of virtual friands happen to know me by that name.

Hans

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Kumar
Ok, as you feel/finds is ought to be correct. You may therefore avoid in future. It also demostrate to me that you are unable to contribute in my type. We basically differ on our different type of understandings, so can't understand/explain/agree on each others books.

Why do you ask questions if you don't want to understand the answers?

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Why do you ask questions if you don't want to understand the answers?

Poor observation.

[flume]

Originally posted by Goddoesnotplaydice A urine pH value that is constantly acidic (5.0-6.5) is an indicator that the body has low pH (potential of hydrogen). A urine pH that is acidic is an indication that the urine is acidic.

[Kumar]

Mr.Hans,

What is this? (http://www.otherhealth.com/showthread.php?p=59528#post59528)

[ReFLeX]

Originally posted by Kumar
Goddoesnotplaydice,

Yes, I think digestive acid, base & water(mucus) balance is a bit less attended concept inspite, it may effect systematically or constitutionally. To treat by diet changes can be alike treating imbalances in these balances of prime importance.
Mr. Kumar, what is THIS?: "&"

You said you would at least try to clear up your writing. I suggested something easy to start with. You succeeded for a few hours subsequently and then lapsed back into &&&&
This shows you are not putting effort into clarity at all.

[Perpetual Notion]

Originally posted by Kumar
Mr.Hans,

What is this? (http://www.otherhealth.com/showthread.php?p=59528#post59528)

Don't you think you should deal with that over on the otherhealth board? It didn't happen on this site.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by ReFLeX
Mr. Kumar, what is THIS?: "&"

You said you would at least try to clear up your writing. I suggested something easy to start with. You succeeded for a few hours subsequently and then lapsed back into &&&&
This shows you are not putting effort into clarity at all.

Sorry, I finds myself comfortable in my style. I give more importance to meaning instead of language or TTTT thinking.

[Goddoesnotplaydice]

Flume,

Thanks for stating the "obvious"! You get an A+ in basic logic!

Kumar gets an A++ for "getting it". NOw its up to him to act on it...
!

has anyone tested it yet? ANy pH numbers yet?
hmmm all this "science" talk and no one wants to measure!
How "unscientific"!

You might want to look a little deeper, and ask more questions as to why this is. Its basic chem, bio, thermo etc.

A urine pH that is acidic is an indication that the urine is acidic.

yes and water is HOH, ok, tell me somthing I don't know!

I think you are forgetting one little detail! Why is it acidic in the first place? Time for you to do emperical test to see why!

I this too complex for you? well, I hope others benefit from this knowledge! I know I continue to!


gdnpd



gdnpd

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Kumar
Poor observation.

No. A very accurate observation, which could be refuted by you explaining the difference between HOH water and OHH water.

"There can be say 1M H2O, 1M HOH, IM OHH or .1M H2O, 1.9M HOH, 1MOHH.....like this there can be many combinations, if isomerism is possible."

We are all still waiting for that.

Edited to add;

You have also not justified your proposed series of reactions;

"O2+H2O= H2O3 or HO+H2O
H2O3+H2O=H4O4 or HO+H2O
H4O4+H2O=H6O5...
.......so on"

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
Mr.Hans,

What is this? (http://www.otherhealth.com/showthread.php?p=59528#post59528) Which or the words do you not understand? Hans Weitbrecht suddenly realized that he is looking a fool and has been for a year. But I'm gonna let him off the hook. I have better things to do than pushing such things.


Hans

[Goddoesnotplaydice]

I do not think argument with Kumar will get you very far...

Again, who is willing to test to prove the truth.

Kumar knows this!

all true knowledge is only learned through emperical testing and real experience learned from trial and error. furthermore, its only known when the whole system is fully understood. I can assure you most humans are far from testing most "truths" on their own.
We assume over and over again what we are >taught< is truth before we even experience it on our own. emphasis added.

we typically follow the easy path! sound familiar?? HISTORY sound familiar?

Do not follow unless those you follow are in the truth!
Truth by testing!

gdnpd

[Goddoesnotplaydice]

Badly Shaved Monkey,

Are you asking me to solve these water / mole /energy conversions of HOH ohh... etc?

or-- "O2+H2O= H2O3 or HO+H2O
H2O3+H2O=H4O4 or HO+H2O
H4O4+H2O=H6O5...hmmmm


Or are you asking kumar?

Don't ask me unless you have a firm grasp of energy vortex theory and hydro dynamics! there are not many that do!!! me?? yet? hmmm.... interesting! there may be intelligence and virtue here after all!

I do not share this knowledge with many!

ohh boy here we go! time to fire up the protium dyno!

ohh the postulatebilities!

gdnpd

[Goddoesnotplaydice]

p.s. does 39.2 ring any bells?



I am awaiting an answer, you have the whole internet and the creator's reflection in YOU ALL to answer this one!

i have plenty of time...

gdnpd

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Goddoesnotplaydice
p.s. does 39.2 ring any bells?



I am awaiting an answer, you have the whole internet and the creator's reflection in YOU ALL to answer this one!

i have plenty of time...

gdnpd Is that to Kumar? Or the rest of us?

In the first case, experience shows that Kumar does not investigate things he is asked to investigate. This seems to be a principle of his.

In the latter case, we already have Kumar to ask us to investigate foggy riddles all over the internet, so we don't need another, thank you very much.

Hans

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Goddoesnotplaydice
A urine pH value that is constantly acidic (5.0-6.5) is an indicator that the body has low pH (potential of hydrogen). This can be balanced gradually by proper diet (good salads, fruits, fish and greens) and lemon water/ tea, excersize and good hydration.A urine pH that is constantly in this range is normal in man. Also normal in dogs and cats and most if not all carnivores. In contrast, horses, rabbits, cattle and other herbivores normally have a urine pH which is 7 or greater. Vegetarian humans also tend to have a higher urine pH.

This figure has no relationship at all to the pH of the body, which is very tightly regulated at 36-44 nmol/l H<SUP>+</SUP>. The body does this by a process known as homoeostasis, which ensures that this level is kept normal irrespective of what you choose to eat. If you have a concentration of H<SUP>+</SUP> outside these limits you are very ill. If you are not ill, then your [H<SUP>+</SUP>] is normal, and will stay that way whatever you eat.

To some extent, urine pH reflects what the body is doing in order to maintain that normal [H<SUP>+</SUP>], but it is not an indicator that this is not beling achieved.

Acidosis and alkalosis can be either respiratory or metabolic, and are complex clinical conditions requiring a great deal of knowledge of biochemistry and physiology to understand fully. I remember explaining quite a lot about this to Kumar once, a long time ago, but as usual he didn't pay a blind bit of attention to a single word. The idea that a healthy person can alter the pH of their body fluids by altering their diet is so much moonshine.

Rolfe.

[Kumar]

Long-term correction of blood pH requires the kidneys to excrete the acid or base in urine. For example, when your blood pH is low (acidic), your kidneys react by excreting more acid in the urine. The urine pH becomes more acidic until the blood pH returns to normal.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003583.htm

This link is related to Urine pH.

What control body's acid/base & water(mucus) balance?

Your provider may want to modify your urine pH to help prevent kidney stones. Acidic urine is associated with xanthine, cystine, uric acid, and calcium oxalate stones. Alkaline urine is associated with calcium carbonate, calcium phosphate, and magnesium phosphate stones. Above link.

How it happens?

-----------

(TTTT/TTT/ITT ignored & will be ignoring, to try to be bit productive.)

[Donks]

Originally posted by Kumar
This link is related to Urine pH.

What control body's acid/base & water(mucus) balance?



(TTTT ignored & will be ignoring, to try to be bit productive.)
Good. You ignore us, and we'll ignore you. Not exactly quid pro quo, but close enough for government work.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Which or the words do you not understand? Hans Weitbrecht suddenly realized that he is looking a fool and has been for a year. But I'm gonna let him off the hook. I have better things to do than pushing such things.


Hans

These are bit unfortunate happenings which may discourage open discussions. .

[Kumar]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Donks
Good. You ignore us, and we'll ignore you.

You misinterpreted. I meant talks not person.

Not exactly quid pro quo, but close enough for government work.

????

[Kumar]

Double post deleted.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Kumar
You misinterpreted. I meant talks not person.
Fine by me. You keep ignoring everything we say, we'll keep ignoring everything you say.
????
Look up the phrase in italics. It might give you a clue why you're being ignored.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
These are bit unfortunate happenings which may discourage open discussions. . Afraid I'm gonna cite YOU in an article? Don't worry, I reserve that for the flame wars.

Hans

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Kumar
This link is related to Urine pH.

What control body's acid/base & water(mucus) balance?

How it happens?:hb:

I don't know why I'm doing this - Hans, stop me please....

The quote you posted is talking about when someone might have problems because his urine pH is causing a difficulty. Specifically, if he is forming kidney or bladder stones which depend on a certain pH for their formation. If for example you're prone to struvite stones which form in alkaline urine, then part of the treatment will be to try to make the urine more acidic.

This can be done by changes in the diet. However, it doesn't mean that the pH of the body (really, of the ECF) will change. The homoeostatic mechanisms go right on maintaining the ECF pH exactly where it should be, but if you change the diet then you change what they have to excrete to do that, and so the urine pH will change.

Actually, most of the common uroliths form in alkaline urine, and to stop them forming you want to make the urine more acid. I'm not sure I'd be too keen on deliberately making my urine more alkaline. Kidney stones are painful.

Rolfe (just waiting to be asked how often she actually measures these things.... :D )

[Donks]

Well, at least now I know I have more willpower than Rolfe.
I didn't cave in first.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Kumar
How it happens?

It depends on the chemistry of aqueous solutions. Solutions made with water. Water. Remember water?

"There can be say 1M H2O, 1M HOH, IM OHH or .1M H2O, 1.9M HOH, 1MOHH.....like this there can be many combinations, if isomerism is possible."

Can you explain the difference between HOH water and OHH water?

"O2+H2O= H2O3 or HO+H2O
H2O3+H2O=H4O4 or HO+H2O
H4O4+H2O=H6O5...
.......so on"

What role does H2O3 play? How do you detect H6O5?

[ReFLeX]

So, Kumar... you don't associate language with meaning?

[Kumar]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Afraid I'm gonna cite YOU in an article? Don't worry, I reserve that for the flame wars.

Hans

I don't believe in cheap practices. God might have distributed food & clothes proportionately as per the share to maintain harmony among its things & beings, still everyone fights for these or for luxuary or due to addictions. Our natural needs are limited but our social needs/wishes may be unlimmited.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Donks
Fine by me. You keep ignoring everything we say, we'll keep ignoring everything you say.

Look up the phrase in italics. It might give you a clue why you're being ignored.

Quid pro quo:"what for what" or "something for something";
You are also justified in ignoring mine postings, if you find these as TTTT/TTT/DTT. As you know me fully now & as per my signature, my talks can be non-technical, language mistakes, other type etc. but I still keep my eyes open till anything is clear to me. Our books & understandings may also be somewhat different, so our talks can look TTTT/TTT/DTT/ITT to each other. However, I was willing to understand in each other, therefore indicated crudes+potencies, but couldn't.:(

[Kumar]

Rolfe,

Some sites indicate that it is better to become slightly alkaline. Is it right? Will then urine be alkaline? Homeostatis controls blood pH in a very narrow range. What about pH of other body's sites? Is there any relation between blood pH & pH of all body parts? I mean whether acid/base/water(mucus) balances of all body parts are related & interdependent on each other?

[Goddoesnotplaydice]

All I can Rolfe is you assume without testing!

again, have you done testing yourself? no! BUT YOU BLINDLY TRUST THE NEWS AND MEDICAL ESTABLISHMENTS??? :(

A urine pH that is constantly in this range ?(5.0-6.5)? is normal in man. Also normal in dogs and cats and most if not all carnivores. In contrast, horses, rabbits, cattle and other herbivores normally have a urine pH which is 7 or greater. Vegetarian humans also tend to have a higher urine pH.

The above range is NOT normal! 6.8-7.0 IS!

Get litmus paper and do the test! move your body more alkali and see how you feel!

Above is ONLY Partly true, DANGER! our ecosystem is going acidic! so are our diets! THIS IS FACT! OK, be blind! just follow what you read in the news/internet! If you have any self governing intellegence test for your self. your deaf ears are a waste of my time otherwise...

gdnpd

[MRC_Hans]

Gee! Another Kumar :rolleyes:. There must be a nest nearby.

Hans

[Kumar]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Gee! Another Kumar :rolleyes:. There must be a nest nearby.

Hans

????

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Kumar
Rolfe,

Some sites indicate that it is better to become slightly alkaline. Is it right? Will then urine be alkaline? Homeostatis controls blood pH in a very narrow range. What about pH of other body's sites? Is there any relation between blood pH & pH of all body parts? I mean whether acid/base/water(mucus) balances of all body parts are related & interdependent on each other?

Ah, the circle is complete.

I say again, what is the point of explaining, again, about pH, if you think these;

"There can be say 1M H2O, 1M HOH, IM OHH or .1M H2O, 1.9M HOH, 1MOHH.....like this there can be many combinations, if isomerism is possible."


"O2+H2O= H2O3 or HO+H2O
H2O3+H2O=H4O4 or HO+H2O
H4O4+H2O=H6O5...
.......so on"



are accurate descriptions of the structure of water?

Once again, you must be asked to show that you understand where those descriptions are in error before you can expect to move forwards.

Let's ask a subsidiary question. Using this;

O2+H2O= H2O3 or HO+H2O
H2O3+H2O=H4O4 or HO+H2O
H4O4+H2O=H6O5...
.......so on

as a description of the chemsitry of water, please derive a definition of pH.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Goddoesnotplaydice
All I can Rolfe is you assume without testing!

again, have you done testing yourself? no! BUT YOU BLINDLY TRUST THE NEWS AND MEDICAL ESTABLISHMENTS??? :(



The above range is NOT normal! 6.8-7.0 IS!

Get litmus paper and do the test! move your body more alkali and see how you feel!

Above is ONLY Partly true, DANGER! our ecosystem is going acidic! so are our diets! THIS IS FACT! OK, be blind! just follow what you read in the news/internet! If you have any self governing intellegence test for your self. your deaf ears are a waste of my time otherwise...

gdnpd

The fact that Rolfe is runs a clinical biochemistry laboratory clearly invalidates her opinions when challenged by someone waving at her a piece of urine-soaked litmus paper, which is the kind of exotic pleasure usually reserved for late-night passengers on the London underground system.

[flume]

Originally posted by Goddoesnotplaydice
[B]again, have you done testing yourself? no! BUT YOU BLINDLY TRUST THE NEWS AND MEDICAL ESTABLISHMENTS???
The above range is NOT normal! 6.8-7.0 IS!
And how do you know what the normal range is? What empirical test did you do to find out the normal range? Or did you follow what you read on the internet?Get litmus paper and do the test! move your body more alkali and see how you feel!So you changed your diet, your urine pH became more alkaline, and you think you feel better. Don't forget about the placebo effect. But let's say you really do feel better as a direct result of the diet. Great. And what empirical test did you do to determine that your feeling better was due to a decrease in a hypothetical acidity in your body? You did no test, right? You have no way to test that. You don't know what feature of your dietary change made you feel better. You stopped eating junk, you ate more fruits and vegetables, maybe you started getting more vitamins and minerals than in your previous diet. Maybe you cut out something that was making you feel less good. You have no test for linking your feeling better to an effect on pH in the body.
A test for urine pH does not test this.

Maybe you could have improved your sense of wellness by some different dietary change that would have not raised your urine pH. How do you know that there is some problem with 'acidity'? You read it on the internet, right? (Or possibly in some booik like "Alkalize or Die"?)

[Kumar]

Antacids
Antiurolithic (phosphate calculi) -- Aluminum Carbonate, Basic; Aluminum Hydroxide
Laxative, hyperosmotic, saline --Magnesium Hydroxide; Magnesium Oxide
Antihyperphosphatemic --Aluminum Carbonate, Basic; Aluminum Hydroxide; Calcium Carbonate
Antihypocalcemic --Calcium Carbonate
Antiurolithic (calcium calculi) --Magnesium Hydroxide

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/uspdi/202047.html


Probably antacids attracts me a lot due to their prime & differenciating effects on type of person(somewhat constitutional).
MOM (just one tab.) seems to gives somewhat astonishing effects in some person with constipation, unclear motions, gas problem, Diabetes etc.

Can you tell me some common/traditional salts used as direct medicine?

[Donks]

Originally posted by Kumar
Quid pro quo:"what for what" or "something for something";
You are also justified in ignoring mine postings, if you find these as TTTT/TTT/DTT. As you know me fully now & as per my signature, my talks can be non-technical, language mistakes, other type etc. but I still keep my eyes open till anything is clear to me. Our books & understandings may also be somewhat different, so our talks can look TTTT/TTT/DTT/ITT to each other. However, I was willing to understand in each other, therefore indicated crudes+potencies, but couldn't.:(
Kummy-wummie, you have yet to give anything back to us. In over a year. Nothing but TTTT/TTT/DTT/ITT (is that a new one?) And you have never ever, not for a second, been willing to understand anything anyone else has posted here, unless it was something you already agreed with. How about you start by answering BSM's questions?

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Kumar
Some sites indicate that it is better to become slightly alkaline. Is it right? Will then urine be alkaline? Homeostatis controls blood pH in a very narrow range. What about pH of other body's sites? Is there any relation between blood pH & pH of all body parts? I mean whether acid/base/water(mucus) balances of all body parts are related & interdependent on each other? I already answered this, several times. You can't change the pH of your body without becoming very ill. If you are even moderately well, your body keeps the pH within very tight limits. To do this it might exrete urine of slightly different pHs depending on the diet, this is part of the homoeostatic mechanisms.

Normal human urine is quite acidic, in fact of all the species I deal with regularly it is the most acidic. There is no benefit to making it more alkaline. Most uroliths form in alkaline urine, so if you suffer from kidney stones you will probably be advised to take something to make your urine more acid.

:hb:

Why am I bothering, this is someone who thinks thatO2+H2O= H2O3 or HO+H2O
H2O3+H2O=H4O4 or HO+H2O
H4O4+H2O=H6O5bears some relationship to reality. I know this is pointless, but I'll say it again. Kumar, go get some basic, school-level chemistry education.

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Goddoesnotplaydice
All I can Rolfe is you assume without testing!

again, have you done testing yourself? no! BUT YOU BLINDLY TRUST THE NEWS AND MEDICAL ESTABLISHMENTS??? :(

The above range is NOT normal! 6.8-7.0 IS!

Get litmus paper and do the test! move your body more alkali and see how you feel!

Above is ONLY Partly true, DANGER! our ecosystem is going acidic! so are our diets! THIS IS FACT! OK, be blind! just follow what you read in the news/internet! If you have any self governing intellegence test for your self. your deaf ears are a waste of my time otherwise...Don't be so bloody stupid. I earn my living by doing tests like this. Every day. And no, my clients do not pay me to assume without testing, they pay me to make sure that the tests are done accurately and reported accurately. They also pay me to know what is normal and what isn't, and to advise them on what to do with their patients depending on whether the results are normal or not.

Oops, I guess that makes me part of the "medical establishment". Which I can only assume gdnpd thinks is busy lying in its teeth every day, for whatever reason I really can't imagine.

GDNPD, I have tested more urine and blood samples that you've ever had hot dinners, with my own fair hands. If we add to that the many times that number of samples tested by the technicians in the lab which I run, we could probably feed a small African country for a decade.

And you think I don't know what's normal? Get real.

Rolfe.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Donks
Kummy-wummie, you have yet to give anything back to us. In over a year. Nothing but TTTT/TTT/DTT/ITT (is that a new one?) And you have never ever, not for a second, been willing to understand anything anyone else has posted here, unless it was something you already agreed with. How about you start by answering BSM's questions?

No.

Why to repeat.

Anyway if you feel/finds like that you can allways avoid. No one is bound to reply & I never insist for same unduly. I just post to share or comment some views/thoughts mostly with ? marks, anyone interested/knowing can post accordingly, otherwise can ignore if feels otherwise/TTTT.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Kumar
No.

Why to repeat.

Anyway if you feel/finds like that you can allways avoid. No one is bound to reply & I never insist for same unduly. I just post to share or comment some views/thoughts mostly with ? marks, anyone interested/knowing can post accordingly, otherwise can ignore if feels otherwise/TTTT.
Ok, I'll keep ignoring you. Good to have your consent.

[Kumar]

Hello all,

Finally, I am asking or requesting:-

It may not be possible/workable for me to change due to many personal problems not otherwise .

In view/consideration of this:

Do you all or most, wants that I should not post or visit this forum in future?

I shall request the administrator to cancell my registration, if I get your positive reply to this question/or submit herewith my request for the same, if members wants/wish the same & find me as otherwise.

Pls give your reply in 'yes or no' without TTTT.:(

I shall wait for few days for your replies & then will stop/restart posting (as it is), accordingly.

Till then, bye for now.:( :(

[Donks]

Originally posted by Kumar
Hello all,

Finally, I am asking or requesting:-

It may not be possible/workable for me to change due to many personal problems not otherwise .

In view/consideration of this:

Do you all or most, wants that I should not post or visit this forum in future?

I shall request the administrator to cancell my registration, if I get your positive reply to this question/or submit herewith my request for the same, if members wants/wish the same & find me as otherwise.

Pls give your reply in 'yes or no' without TTTT.:(

I shall wait for few days for your replies & then will stop/restart posting (as it is), accordingly.

Till then, bye for now.:( :(
Don't get all whiny and play the martyr now. If you want to stay, stay. Noone's forcing you to do anything. Just be sure that you'll get as good as you give, so if you continue to refuse answering even the most basic questions, don't expect all your questions answered.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Kumar
Hello all,

Finally, I am asking or requesting:-

It may not be possible/workable for me to change due to many personal problems not otherwise .

In view/consideration of this:

Do you all or most, wants that I should not post or visit this forum in future?

I shall request the administrator to cancell my registration, if I get your positive reply to this question/or submit herewith my request for the same, if members wants/wish the same & find me as otherwise.

Pls give your reply in 'yes or no' without TTTT.:(

I shall wait for few days for your replies & then will stop/restart posting (as it is), accordingly.

Till then, bye for now.:( :(

No, you should not leave.

I don't think anyone would want a rule-abiding member to stop posting, but unless you start to learn something your (current) 3772 posts will have been a bit of a waste of time.

We have been testing your willingness to learn on a very specific area because it should be very easy for you. It will show that you have understood some of the things that have been explained to you in the past by showing that you understand this current topic.

So, once again, do you now understand why the following ideas have no bearing on reality?

"There can be say 1M H2O, 1M HOH, IM OHH or .1M H2O, 1.9M HOH, 1MOHH.....like this there can be many combinations, if isomerism is possible."


"O2+H2O= H2O3 or HO+H2O
H2O3+H2O=H4O4 or HO+H2O
H4O4+H2O=H6O5...
.......so on"

Alternatively, all you have to do is state clearly that you are confused and ask for help and you will get a clear explanation, but first you need to make it clear that you recognise where the problem lies. But, I for one, am not prepared to waste time and effort explaining things only for you to reject the explanations and stick to your preconceived and wrong-headed ideas.

Learning means making progress, you have shown no willingness to make that progress based on what has been explained to you, but you can still choose to start learning from now on.

It's up to you.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
No, you should not leave.

I don't think anyone would want a rule-abiding member to stop posting, but unless you start to learn something your (current) 3772 posts will have been a bit of a waste of time.I shouldn't worry, BSM. Kumar threatens (or promises, depending on the way you look at it :D ) to go away on a regular basis. Once he said he'd stop posting until the verdict of a poll which I was supposed to set up on the matter. (I didn't, of course - if he wants to poll us on that one he can set it up himself.) I don't think it was an hour before his next post.

Kumar, I don't much care whether you go or stay. I'm just intrigued as to why you keep asking questions here, when you have no respect for the knowledge of the people who answer you, and no intention of ever paying the slightest bit of attention to the answers.

Rolfe.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Rolfe
*snip*
Kumar, I don't much care whether you go or stay. I'm just intrigued as to why you keep asking questions here, when you have no respect for the knowledge of the people who answer you, and no intention of ever paying the slightest bit of attention to the answers.

Rolfe. I think Kumar explained this, some time ago (mind you, even during the rare swoops of the Good Grammar Fairie, interpretation of Kumar's posts is uncertain at best): He is here to enlighten us; he wants to shine his light in various directions making us see the truth through the darkness of our ignorance.

... Unfortunately, his lamp is not lit, and he has managed to pull the cap of his beliefs so tighly down over his own eyes that he consistenly fails to see that not only is his own lamp out, but the places he professes to shine a bit of light on are already brightly lit and well understood by practially everybody else.

Hans

[Goddoesnotplaydice]

Rolfe, all!

I am glad I have stirred the pot of relative pH thinking for you and I + some others! If we all did not care we would not be here discussing these issues! So I will drink a little lemon water to that! CHEERS!

And to those of you BSM, Kumar Dk, Merc, ME etc who "may" at times feel "stirred" or uncomfortable by others here and want to leave... Well please, DO NOT LEAVE! WE NEED EACHOTHER!:)

This "stirring" is a great tool to bring wisdom and virtue to us all.

ALL this "mental and spiritual" wrestling is for a very GOOD reason! This I am sure of! I LOVE IT! :) :) It sharpens our minds. We will have eternity to continue this study as well, after we leave this place!

We All don't get out alive and we can't take "every "little" thing" with us! SO after all, aren't we are all in this "eternal life"... testing ground together?

I think so!

Rolfe,
I respect the fact that you have tested so many pH samples, but that does not mean that you are "right" and I am "wrong" or vs vs. on the pH issue. Perception and how we perceive these “relative� or "absolute" measurements plays a HUGE role! And I DO measurement systems, that’s about all I DO!

I want to remind us all (me too) that this Life is a journey and a search for truth.

I have a family member who is a respected medical professor and is giving a large public dissertation on this very subject of pH and the interelating biological factors.

I will assure you the flood gates of knowledge are starting to open. My studies and my close family members seem to be crossing paths in the strangest and most interesting of ways. I am not a med person I just do electro!

I hope that we will learn similar here about ALL our paths too.
Much to learn!

All I can say at the moment is that we are ALL learning, We ALL make assumptions and that the fat little baby has not peeeed yet!

On the pH issue, remember it may not be what we think it is at all! it is "potential" of hydrogen. I will also say that this "potential" issue is FAR bigger then we all can even grasp.

relativity comes into play here, and "relativity" is a very, very big play pen!

gdnpd

[Rolfe]

:hb:

Rolfe.

[Donks]

Wow. An intellect that eclipses even Kumar.

[flume]

Kumar, I hope you will stay. But I may have no answers to your questions.

By the way, I am still trying to find the answer to the question on how the cell salt analysis was done that Schuessler used.
I did try to order that 19th century von Bunge book from the library to look up your cell salts question. But I got the email yesterday; it is too old to be on their list.
Also at my local library book sale of donated books I found a set of chemistry books from 1905. But it doesn't talk about ash analysis, so no luck there.
(The sale has lots of chemistry, biology and physics textbooks for 1$ each. I would almost buy some and send them, but I think the shipping cost would be too high.)

[flume]

Originally posted by Goddoesnotplaydice I have a family member who is a respected medical professor and is giving a large public dissertation on this very subject of pH and the interelating biological factors.Good. Maybe we can look him up on pub med. (I have read an article by Oh, Man. Not him, is it?)

[tracer]

Originally posted by Goddoesnotplaydice
And I DO measurement systems, that’s about all I DO!
Pray tell, what specific kinds of measurement systems do you "do"? Do you design laboratory centigram balances? Build yardsticks? Test oven thermometers? Adjust the distances between the slits in a diffraction grating?

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by tracer
Pray tell, what specific kinds of measurement systems do you "do"? Do you design laboratory centigram balances? Build yardsticks? Test oven thermometers? Adjust the distances between the slits in a diffraction grating? I fear that anyone who thinks that the results of measurements are subjective, and that one cannot be either "right" or "wrong" probably has no idea what you're even talking about.I respect the fact that you have tested so many pH samples, but that does not mean that you are "right" and I am "wrong" or vs vs. on the pH issue. Perception and how we perceive these “relative� or "absolute" measurements plays a HUGE role!Rubbish. When you make a measurement, then you are either acceptably accurate, or you are not. If two measurements are significantly different, then at least one of them will be "wrong".

And if two contradictory statements of fact are made, then at least one of them is "wrong". Your statement contradicts mine. And I know that mine is not "wrong".

Deal with it.

Rolfe.

[Goddoesnotplaydice]

Pray tell, (you meant to say gdnpd?)what specific kinds of measurement systems do you "do"?

HV(High Voltage) up to 300KV and above, HF (high frequency) analog/digital/fiber optic test and measurement systems. I've built/designed gear for everything from med equiptment, to the space shuttle / space systems, NIST HV standards, Wafer fab production and measurement equip...etc. High power switch gear for you name it... + I have written complex metrology calibration procedures and calibrated and helped engineer ultra accurate measurement systems. used wheatstone bridges, light beam galv's etc..


Do you design laboratory centigram balances? No, I've used them though.


Build yardsticks? I think back in grade school i did.

Test oven thermometers? why yes... I've designed PID and ultra precision thermal reactor (1000 Deg C+) controls + all kinds of other "stuff". with many types of TC's for wafer fab, and "special" thermal reactor applications.


Adjust the distances between the slits in a diffraction grating? hmm. no I don't think so. Others laser / fab techs did that.
I have built/designed optical and laser systems, HeCd lasers, precision optical calorimeter and optical power measurement systems.

anymore questions about test and measurement systems?
Relative measurement is kewl...absolute does not really exist in our construct.
(unless you believe "the king" is the only one who knows what a "foot" or "yard" or "mm" or "cm" etc... is! hehe)!

Takes decades to learn that one....so rolfe sorry, your "absolutely" statement in relativistic terms is not actually totally correct. T&M (test and measurement) is not that "simple".

gdnpd

[Donks]

Originally posted by Goddoesnotplaydice
anymore questions about test and measurement systems?
Relative measurement is kewl...absolute does not really exist in our construct.
(unless you believe "the king" is the only one who knows what a "foot" or "yard" or "mm" or "cm" etc... is! hehe)!

Takes decades to learn that one....so rolfe sorry, your "absolutely" statement in relativistic terms is not actually totally correct. T&M (test and measurement) is not that "simple".

gdnpd

Talk about deja vu. luvhumility?

[Goddoesnotplaydice]

yes, I'm not humble enough to keep that name so I changed it.
thus, god does not play dice was born... luvhumility (the old me) waz too much of a non sober "people pleazer"! I am trying to move away from the "please everyone" mentality. I just can't do it. So I stay physically and mentally more sober and please myself now!
That one took me several decades to learn too...

gdnpd

[Goddoesnotplaydice]

Rubbish. When you make a measurement, then you are either acceptably accurate, or you are not. If two measurements are significantly different, then at least one of them will be "wrong". so meat eaters that buy chicken at safeway

I disagree, Not allways. here is why> there are ranges, limits and baselines or origins. So lets say the NIST says "we hold the standard of the 1.000000000 VDC cell" or we hold the 1.000000000 Ft std or we hold the gram or whatever the std might be.

A question arises. where did this standard originate? a kings foot?
A physical law of say... 1 cubic cm of water? do you see my point? there is always RELATION! thru repeatability. There are ranges and limits of accuracy, sure, but still there is relation by repeatibility/and hopefully stability as well.

You may be arguing repeatability or stability? do you agree?
I am not arguing just to argue, history plays a baseline role here.
Absolute accuracy is another matter! There is allways a "reference" standard to relate to all the way through the calibration chain.

Sure, they may keep these "standards" in a highly temperature and humidity controlled etc environment using the best measurment accuracies possible to verify and compare this to other reference standards.

But the origin question still arises. IF this "origin" is based on physical law or reference "standard" then a simpler and more time consuming verification method may have been used before more accurate ones were available to validate this "standard". but still there is a reference. absolute? what is absolute in measurement? Nothing really, there are ALLWAYS ranges and limits and repeatibility relations!

so what are these "measurements" originally in relation too? what is a base line? the measurement world is always relative to something measured somewhere in another time or space. No two objects are exactly the same, and all standards are based on an "original" object, "experience" or test model. therefore there is allways relation.

sure, you may say my pH of 5.8 etc is fine! I say I don't feel good at 5.8, I feel sick and tired but if i raise it to 6.8 through diet and I say I feel good am I wrong? I could care less if you say i need to be 5.8 or whatever. If I feel better who is "right"?...
So again, medicine is relational and scientific BOTH! If you completely remove either methodology then we lose the "practice"! Anyway I know the planet is going acidic so the baseline is moving. will you also disagree with that??

gdnpd

[Goddoesnotplaydice]

Rolfe,

I have to say you are full of it. This is why! You stated:

Acidosis and alkalosis can be either respiratory or metabolic, <<<(partly true, are you forgetting somthing called persperation)? and are complex clinical conditions requiring a great deal of knowledge of biochemistry and physiology to understand fully. (not true) OHH so I need a PhD to tell me "how I feel" and how my cells work. ohh OK :)??

I remember explaining quite a lot about this to Kumar once, a long time ago, but as usual he didn't pay a blind bit of attention to a single word.

Thats kumars problem, but I am listening and I will try to stay open to your knowledge in this area! BUT I WILL NOT BUY BS!


>>>>>The idea that a healthy person can alter the pH of their body fluids by altering their diet is so much moonshine>>>>> <<< this is NOT CORRECT AT ALL!!!!

you are soooo incorrect. I know for a fact people who are altering their body fluid pH's over extended periods of time by strict diet and lifestyle changes and are getting incredible results!

this higher HEALTHY pH includes NO SODA POP, NO JUNK FOOD, lots of salads, greens + fresh veggies etc... far less'/NO milk products and NO SUGAR. NO ALCOHOL as well as an increase in fiber and fruits between meals in their diets! plus how they chew and mix their foods is important too! then HOH hydration! but not just any HOH! I can tell you loads about different water energies and eigenstates!

McDOnalds or heavy junky meat loading or any PROCESSED FOODS will send some one who is doing good on the pH scale into an acidic mess! Sooo...

so REALLY rolfe are you going to tell me if my fluids pH comes up slowly as I eat more veggies and fruits and cut out the crapy food that I AM FULL OF IT if my urine pH comes up too??? what a bunch of BS!

what the heck? do you eat processed foods or work for Mcdonalds or somthing??? I DO NOT BUY your line because I have personal experience that tells me otherwise.. with measurements to back it up!!!

SO DEAL WITH IT!! Phd and pharma pills WILL ONLY DO TEMP HELP! In the end/long run the typical pharm methods will acidify you if you still keep eating JUNK!

Also, I have a medical doctor (ivy professor) in my family who knows better than to tell me things like this! And NO SHE IS NOT A QUACK She is top of her field. I also have a pharm/chemist in my family that TOTALLY agrees with me... and also follows this lifestyle with success!

where did you get the idea that your urine pH can not change very much over time? Blood pH i will agree...it moves very little BUT IT STILL MOVES TOO! but Urine not moving??

balderdash!

gdnpd

[Goddoesnotplaydice]

p.s. Kumar knows more then most you book bound dummies!!

even though he barely speaks english!

IMHO!

gdnpd

[Mojo]

Originally posted by Goddoesnotplaydice
where did you get the idea that your urine pH can not change very much over time? Blood pH i will agree...it moves very little BUT IT STILL MOVES TOO! but Urine not moving??Where did you get the idea that Rolfe stated that urine pH can not change?Originally posted by Rolfe
A urine pH that is constantly in this range is normal in man. Also normal in dogs and cats and most if not all carnivores. In contrast, horses, rabbits, cattle and other herbivores normally have a urine pH which is 7 or greater. Vegetarian humans also tend to have a higher urine pH.Note: This post stated that animals that eat veggies have a higher urine pH than those that eat meat. It also stated that humans who don't eat meat have a higher urine pH than those who do. So, if a human stops eating meat their urine pH is going to get higher. You really should try to read and understand the posts you are replying to. At the moment you don't seem to be doing much better than Kumar in this regard. "Even though," as you said, "he barely speaks english!"

By the way, you should try to avoid the constant appeals to authority in the form of unnamed family members. It won't wash.

If you know of, for example, "a respected medical professor [who] is giving a large public dissertation on this very subject of pH and the interelating biological factors," and you think what he or she has to say supports your argument, please let us know who they are, and if possible provide references, or even better, a link, so we can see it for ourselves.

Edited to add apostrophe.

[Rolfe]

Dear me, luvhumility/gdnpd is getting a bit hysterical, no?

Still, hysteria doesn't change the facts, which is that the pH of one's body fluids (I mean the fluids which are actually part of the body - principally the ECF - not the excreted fluids) is maintained within very tight limits in anyone who isn't quite seriously ill.

To do this, as I explained, the body may vary the pH of the fliud which is excreted - principally the urine. However, in a human eating a normal diet, the urine will tend to be fairly acidic. It is possible to make your urine pH more alkaline by varying your diet, of course, especially by eating a primarily vegetarian diet. This is because the body then has different things to excrete in order to go on keeping the pH of its own fluids exactly where it ought to be.

Now you may feel better on a vegetarian diet, and there may be many reasons for this. However, a more alkaline urine pH isn't one of them. I'd be wary of letting urine pH get alkaline, because this can predispose to the formation of kidney stones.

Now, if anyone can explain in what way the sweat performs a significant r&ocirc;le in acid/base balance, carry on. (Hint - humans are one of the very few animals which secrete copious quantities of thermoregulatory sweat. It happens to be quite acidic, just like the urine, because it is in a way just dilute urine. However, quantitatively it's insignificant as regards acid/base regulation, which is just as well or the animals which don't produce significant amounts of sweat - most of them - would be in serious trouble.)

lh/gdnpd, go read an elementary physiology book.

Rolfe.

[Mojo]

Originally posted by Rolfe
Hint - humans are one of the very few animals which secrete copious quantities of thermoregulatory sweat. It happens to be quite acidic, just like the urine, because it is in a way just dilute urine.EURGH!

[Kumar]

Nothing is clear. Why you reply as TTTT? I simply want to know:-

Option 1. I should discontinue posting "as it is".

Option 2. I should continue posting "as it is".

Option 3. I should first read your books & then post (6m to 2 year study to understand something).

You may just post your preference for Option 1, 2, or 3. I don't know how to poll so you can post a poll on my behalf to this effect.

flume, gdnpd..thanks.

gdnpd, flume,,

Pls also include water(mucus) in your understanding of acid & base to complete the understanding. We may find that our controlling, constitutional (inherited) & chronic mechnanisms are working via these acid/base & water (mucus) balances--may be neurologically & overall/systematic.

Some constitutional indications are given at following link but these may be required to be arranged in accordance with modern understandings to understand "individualities".

http://www.similima.com/org.9.htm

You may also try understanding; Can water quality effect us? i.e. Hard/Soft water, acidic/alkaline water, Contaminations & compostions/minerals of water (esp. calcium, magnesium, fluoride silica, sodium etc), water/mucus blocks, more/less water drinkers, bathing(somewhat tropical/homeopathic effect) vs. drinking water, plain tap/bottled water, water fron natural sources & sea water, water & localities, water & eatables(effect of water on quality of vegetables, fruits etc. grown in an area & foods prepared from that water)....all can be related to our inherited, constitutional & chronic (something with acute also) considerations. Best wishes

[Mojo]

Originally posted by Kumar
Nothing is clear. Why you reply as TTTT? I simply want to know:-

Option 1. I should discontinue posting "as it is".

Option 2. I should continue posting "as it is".

Option 3. I should first read your books & then post (6m to 2 year study to understand something).

You may just post your preference for Option 1, 2, or 3. I don't know how to poll so you can post a poll on my behalf to this effect.Sorry, Kumar, but you're off-topic here. This thread is supposed to be about cancer/infections and iron relations.

[Kumar]

Are we not habitual/addicted to 'off-topic discussions'? Otherwise, what was its need?

[Donks]

Originally posted by Kumar
Are we not habitual/addicted to 'off-topic discussions'? Otherwise, what was its need?
So much TTTT/TTT/DTT. Tsk tsk, Kumar.

[Kumar]

Some scientific support for the ‘memory’ capability of water

Although the structure of hydrogen bonds in pure water should be identical to those in homeopathic dilutions of salt solutions, the evidence finds that the structures are actually very different...
Compared with pure water, the ultra-dilute lithium and sodium chloride solutions had substantially different thermoluminescence peaks. According to researchers, this proves that the networks of hydrogen bonds in the samples were different.

http://www.megadisc.com.au/index_files/Page2035.htm

Structure changes.

[Mojo]

Originally posted by Kumar
Structure changes. You're off-topic again.

Anyway, can you suggest a test capable of detecting these "structure changes?" Could be worth a million dollars if you can do it!

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
Structure changes. Lack of blinding, lack of proper control, suspicion of data-mining. Even Benveniste denounced that experiment :nope:.

Hans