So what's the deal with chiros?

[Alkatran]

I just saw a commercial on television for chiropracters (had an anecdote about chiropracty 'saving' someone's life) and was wondering what the objections are to it. I have seen it mentioned in the commentary but never really thought about it (probably be because I've never heard of chiros manipulating energy, only the physical bones! That gives them a 'not insane' leg up in my book...)

[crimresearch]

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=382827&sortby=&sortorder=

[Rolfe]

Chirobase (http://www.chirobase.org).

Oh, and this recent thread also (active within the last 48 hours). Are chiropractors woo? (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55330)

Rolfe.

[Alkatran]

So chiropracters, at least the ones who know what they are doing, can actually help without the all-might PLACEBO?

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by Alkatran
So chiropracters, at least the ones who know what they are doing, can actually help without the all-might PLACEBO?

Well, there are studies they can help with back pain, and yes part of that may be placebo. What irks me is that their education is so darn lacking that the majority are anti-vaccine. So they are often selling woo junk or misinformation to the public on top of having crazy ideas about what affects the body.

Some of the most notorious? Tim Bolen (very antivaccine)
http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/bolen.html

and Martha Collins who thinks diseases won't re-emerge after vaccination stops , plus Ted Koren.
http://www.cbc.ca/consumers/market/files/health/vaccines/pg_one.html

Tim supports Hulda Clark, who figures all diseases are caused by one microbe, even cancer. Ugh. He even emailed me once to insult me on one of my postings on the healthfraud mail listings. Nutter. He hasn't found a reason to sue a layperson yet though.

And some more information:

http://www.chirowatch.com/Chiro-anti-vax/

Please wait for the page to load completely and scroll down.

[IllegalArgument]

My roommate is a chiro. He seems to be woo-free, at least in the sense that he doesn't recommed woo-ish stuff to his clients. I do quiz him from time to time to see what he thinks.

He will admit that there are some real con-artists in the chiro community and that bothers him.

[Eos of the Eons]

What does he think of vaccination?

[IllegalArgument]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
What does he think of vaccination?

I'm not sure if I have asked him that directly. I'm pretty sure he pro-vaccine, would be very disturbing if he wasn't. I only see him a few minutes each day, he is at his office most of the time.

Good point, I'll ask him next time.

[cbish]

I just saw a commercial on television for chiropracters (had an anecdote about chiropracty 'saving' someone's life) and was wondering what the objections are to it Try this on for size:http://www.drz.org/asp/cp/all_possibilities.asp
If you have time, start at the homepage and check out all the other garabage.

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by IllegalArgument
I'm not sure if I have asked him that directly. I'm pretty sure he pro-vaccine, would be very disturbing if he wasn't. I only see him a few minutes each day, he is at his office most of the time.

Good point, I'll ask him next time.

I will hold hope he does have common sense :)

Please post here again after you get a chance to check with him.

[IllegalArgument]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
I will hold hope he does have common sense :)



Unfortuately, he doesn't. :(

Almost came to a true argument with him. I asked him if another chiropractor, that he doesn't like, was anti-vac. His reply made it obvious he was anti-vac. He believes vaccines causes autism, produced the usual I know someones kid that developed autism right after vaccination story.

Admitedly, I was pretty upset, I had a higher opinion of his intelligence in these matters. I know I shouted BS!!! at least once.

He made the usual arguments that are studies on both side of the issue. Something about Japan not vaccinating till after the age of two.

I guess I need to do some reading at Eos's site, because I'm not letting him off easy on this. Going to be hard though, he's got the usual mental screens up, studies aren't everything and that kind of bs.

I wasn't in the habit of recommending any chiro, so that definately won't change after tonight's experience.

[Eos of the Eons]

:( Sorry to hear that. He is probably going by Tim Bolen's "newsletters" and other anti-vac sources.

What studies is he referring to? The healthfraud listing is great for debunking the anti-vax pseudoscience.
http://www.ssr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?1:dds:97637#b

You can find sources like:
http://quackfiles.blogspot.com/2005/03/mark-geier-untrustworthy-autism.html

and some information on Japan:

http://www.skeptics.com.au/journal/anti-immune.htm

http://www.geocities.com/healthbase/vaxquotes.html

Japan's immunization rate did fall to 10% from 80%, and it was a fiasco.
Japan's reaction to its epidemic was swiftest and strongest. By 1981, Japan resumed vaccination with an acellular pertussis vaccine and pertussis incidence rates returned to their pre-fiasco levels. The United Kingdom's vaccine uptake rate began slowly climbing, and by the 1990s reached levels exceeding those prior to the hysteria. English and Welsh pertussis incidence rates declined accordingly.

http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-01/anti-vaccination.html

And Japan does vaccinate infants
the most reliable measure of pertussis prevention in Japan should be vaccination of infants.

http://idsc.nih.go.jp/iasr/18/207/tpc207.html

[Suezoled]

Originally posted by Alkatran
I just saw a commercial on television for chiropracters (had an anecdote about chiropracty 'saving' someone's life) and was wondering what the objections are to it. I have seen it mentioned in the commentary but never really thought about it (probably be because I've never heard of chiros manipulating energy, only the physical bones! That gives them a 'not insane' leg up in my book...)

Yes. Commercials are reliable sources of information that care about the consumer and will give them enough time and sources to make an informed choice about their life and health.


And as for those EVIL EVIL vaccines: everyone knows the pharmaceutical industry is out to harm children. The future of the world depends on chemically altering a child and their ability to develop as functional adult so that they are dependent on outside aid for rest of their lives. And of coure, pharmaceutical companies, their stock brokers, the doctors who administer them... all those evil conspirators have no immediate family members, relatives, coworkers, neighbors, and/or friends who are suffering or have suffered or risk the possibility of suffering such preventable diseases as pertussis, measles, rubella... and of course, there are no medical types out there that have people who they know who are autistic who would be among the foremost to campaign against those vaccines if such a statement were found to have any grounding in reality. They don't care about the millions of kids out there... those free vaccines given to developing countries? Yet another source to poison the young'uns and bring them under ...I dunno, someone's control.

Tis better to suffer the slings and ravages of polio than to bear the contamination of the needle!
Hey now, Lockjaw builds character.

[Eos of the Eons]

I'd like to see how chiroquackery saves lives as well. To go into more detail about their "energy" claims, we can examine their "subluxation"/misalignment arguments and how that interferes with "energy" flow. You see, for the body to function "properly" and heal itself, there needs to be unhindered energy flow.



"subluxation", blocked the flow of vital Innate Intelligence. Palmer thought that Innate running freely through the body would keep it in optimal health. D.D. Palmer, who worked as a magnetic healer before discovering chiropractic, was strongly influenced by mysticism, Mesmerism and vitalistic ideas popular at the turn of the century.

http://www.canoe.ca/ChiroYork/chiro_philosophy.htmlProponents of the vitalism theory believe that the primary distinguishing factor between animate matter and inanimate matter is a “Vital Force� or “energy� that suffuses organic matter, rendering it “alive.�


... Chiropractic, developed by Daniel David Palmer in 1895, is entirely based on the vitalistic, chi-like belief that an energy or spiritual life-force pervades the human body. This energy, referred to as “innate-intelligence,� is said to emanate from the brain, travel through the spinal cord and peripheral nerves to all the organs of the body (Novella ‘97). It is only when this energy is intact and its flow is unimpeded that we can attain a healthy state. The primary culprit of illness is seen as spinal misalignments or subluxations that impinge spinal nerves and obstruct the flow of energy resulting in disease. Manipulating and correcting the subluxations is said to restore the flow of innate intelligence, creating a state of optimum health.


http://www.theness.com/articles/energycrisis-nejs0304.html

Chiroquackery is a throwback to ancient belief systems about the human body.

[Eos of the Eons]

Eeeks....I have to show everyone this tidbit:

Roger Sperry won the Nobel Prize for showing that 90% of our brain energy is spent dealing with the forces of gravity. The way we run, walk, sit and sleep are always affected by gravity, and the spine bears the most of this and can become Subluxated if it has a stress put on it. Many Subluxations however are caused in childhood and show up as problems later in life. Learning to walk and falling, bumping the spine can cause Subluxations, and many times the Birth Trauma, of the delivery pulling on the neck or forceps can cause lifetime spinal problems.
http://www.cac4life.com/article02healthcare.html

Uh huh. If subluxations just happened the way they claim, a REAL "subluxation" ("partial" dislocation of joint), then we'd all be suffering spinal cord injuries, not just some interference with our energy flow. I don't think those quacks know what a spinal cord really is or what purpose it serves in our bodies. It's called a nervous system...

Not to mention, chiros can't prove their version of spinal subluxation even exists, or that what they do to "fix subluxations" even has any effect on the vertebrae of the spine.

Oh, and I really can't find where Sperry mentions the above claim.

[IllegalArgument]

He said that MMR causes autism. Which I know is bogus, heard it mentioned a thousand times here.

Never thought to ask about vaccines, I don't have kids, he doesn't treat any kids.

He's still a nice guy, but sigh I lost a lot of respect for him. I mean it's one thing to spout nonsense if it only effects you. I know plenty of new age people. To give out medical "advice" is complete different.

[Eos of the Eons]

:( It is sad. This is why MDs should be called more than just doctors. Their education, knowledge of the human body, and application of the two is so far advanced over those chiros and naturopaths that also take on the moniker "doctor". It's not fair that most people think chiros are MDs (I used to think so). I thought they just specialized in the backs. It was kind of shocking to find out the truth. Everyone I've talked to in Real life refuse to believe me, and now I'm the weirdo whenever I bring it up. It's really not fair to have to try to shatter the illusions society. It's not fair that DCs get way to much credit. It's not fair they don't have to practice real medicine. It's not fair that chiro students go so far in debt learning nothing but garbage. I mean, they really ought to believe in the germ theory by now, it would help them to understand why vaccines are beneficial and how they cannot cause autism.

Sorry about the rant. It's kind of in response to how you've been let down, and lost respect for your friend. You're the one who should be mad. If this was a fair world though, we all would be aware of how mired in quackery chiros really are instead of having to dig. We want to believe it's not true, but instead are smacked in the face with the truth when we finally uncover it.

[Alkatran]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Suezoled
Yes. Commercials are reliable sources of information that care about the consumer and will give them enough time and sources to make an informed choice about their life and health. [\quote]

The commercial caused me to wonder, for the reasons I stated. It by no means convinced me. My thoughts were something the line of "Huh, I hope that this isn't BS"

[Eos of the Eons]

Thing is, you said:

gives them a 'not insane' leg up in my book...

Also, chiros "manipulate" bones in order to "right" energy flow. Nobody claims to manipulate energy.

Do you still give them a "not insane leg up" in your book?

Kudos for asking questions after seeing the one-sided commercial.

[Alkatran]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
Thing is, you said:



Also, chiros "manipulate" bones in order to "right" energy flow. Nobody claims to manipulate energy.

Do you still give them a "not insane leg up" in your book?

Kudos for asking questions after seeing the one-sided commercial.

No. That's taking the 'not insane' leg away. No leg for them now, only rib.

[Asolepius]

The most frequent cause of strokes in people under 45 is chiropractic.

[Suezoled]

Originally posted by Asolepius
The most frequent cause of strokes in people under 45 is chiropractic.

Sources?



You're asking about objections. You site a commercial as a source. I am discounting your source. It's a grave mistake, likely, as I've not seen this commercial myself, so I'm only judging by the context it's been presented in.


And, I do notice you locate a living residence in the UK. As far as I understand it, Chiros over there have the same reputation, good standing, and educational standards as DO's do over in the States here.

[crimresearch]

That would be interesting, considering that we had a thread on DOs from British posters, who reported that their DOs were not considered on a par with MDs.



Do British chiros really go through the level of training posted for US DOs, but British osteopaths do not?

[Alkatran]

Originally posted by Suezoled
Sources?



You're asking about objections. You site a commercial as a source. I am discounting your source. It's a grave mistake, likely, as I've not seen this commercial myself, so I'm only judging by the context it's been presented in.


And, I do notice you locate a living residence in the UK. As far as I understand it, Chiros over there have the same reputation, good standing, and educational standards as DO's do over in the States here.

I think you confused me with him. :(

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Suezoled
As far as I understand it, Chiros over there have the same reputation, good standing, and educational standards as DO's do over in the States here. Originally posted by crimresearch
.... we had a thread on DOs from British posters, who reported that their DOs were not considered on a par with MDs.

Do British chiros really go through the level of training posted for US DOs, but British osteopaths do not? No, No, No, No, NO!!!!!

There is no such thing as either a DO or a DC in the UK. There are doctors, and there are other people.

Some of the other people offer things called chiropractic and osteopathy in high-street clinics or attached to sports centres and places like that. Sometimes as part of an "alternative" clinic that also does acupuncture and stuff. They have absolutely nothing to do with mainstream medicine and are not a part of the NHS.

The thing is, the NHS is a bit short on physiotherapy. Sometimes it takes ages to get an appointment. People in pain try other things. Sometimes these other things are private physiotherapists, and sometimes they are chiropractors or osteopaths. I honestly don't know the difference between the two of them, but both lots seem to deal only with orthopaedic conditions, and they don't generally spout woo. They may simply be delivering basic physiotherapy by another name. It may be that there are a few woos hidden away here or there, but in general both groups seem to be trying to be taken seriously as sort-of-physiotherapy for bad backs.

But they aren't doctors, and they don't do medical courses, and they aren't employed by the NHS, and if you do want to see one of them, you pay for it.

(Oh, and nothing of that relates to "cranial osteopathy" which I've had done on me, and which is about as woo as it gets. I even described it to the idiot girl who was doing it as "homoeopathic massage", but she didn't get what I meant. She was an "osteopath", and had a BSc degree from some crappy college where they'd obviously fed her a load of BS nonsense.)

Rolfe.

[crimresearch]

Thanks for the clarification.

I think the case for the US, where DOs are generally on a par with MDs, and DCs are not, has been presented.

Other countries?

Any posters here from Canada who would know? Denmark?
How about Tierra del Fuego?

[Suezoled]

Originally posted by crimresearch
That would be interesting, considering that we had a thread on DOs from British posters, who reported that their DOs were not considered on a par with MDs.



Do British chiros really go through the level of training posted for US DOs, but British osteopaths do not?

Hm. That's right. My mix up.
(sorry Rolfe)


I think you confused me with him

Hm. That's right. Another mix up.
(sorry folks)

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by Alkatran
No. That's taking the 'not insane' leg away. No leg for them now, only rib.

:)

[Eos of the Eons]

Just a quick bump for somebody asking elsewhere...